Gates Closed

[I am Bored]

perhaps you should keep it open to those with a regestration code, that was either told to you, or emailed to you, making it so you can join by invite only, that should still let you see a reasonably accurate result, yet still allow the type of players who would be loyal to md to be able to join, have a source that would be able to get the knowledge of the existance of the site out to the type of people that would be loyal to it.... even better it's free but if they can't join there isn't much of a reason to get it to that source

[Burns]

EDIT to Fenrir: yeah, i complain that i have nothing to do when i'm online, but imagine people were attached to me, and only me, as their personal live-helper... i have nothing to do for about 2 hours a day, and those change every second day with my mood to work for college, and now tell me it would be smart to assign newbies to me, or any other person with ever-changing working-schedules =P

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm pretty sure that nobody cares for my rantings and opinions, but HA, i'm stil forcing them on you =P

i can see a wagonload of factors working together to make people leave:

[size="4"]pretty boring story mode[/size]
At the beginning, people get an intro, a tutorial, another intro, and chapter one, all at once, and if they skip things, they will miss things they need to advance and leave because they get stuck. Now, those are not people i'd worry about, since such impatience is unacceptable anyway, but if someone just pops in during an IT-class at school, or in a break, or in some other pretty limited time-frame, they'd likely leave again because getting started takes too long.

[size="4"]annoying dojo-SG-thingy[/size]
Once they manage to get out of story and finally are able to attack things, that's exactly what they will do, they attack things.
On the one hand, the dojo is pretty handy for that because _something_ is there to be attacked and/or talked to, but lots of the time, people in there are pretty angry when they are attacked and beaten by the newbie VE-boost (if that's still alive, haven't been a newbie for some time now).
People should be able to put up with that, but some will realize that a lot of cowards are hiding out there and get angry when real combat approaches, which might not shed the best light on the game for those few who actually expect a PvP-game [btw, same goes for GGG]

[size="4"]god-mode[/size]
lately it's becoming pretty popular to stay on mp3 forever, which would be one of the major reasons for me to leave instantly.
I know, those people are all nice and good and stuff, but any player expecting PvP-action IS very pissed off when about ten of the most active mp3 are _completely_ unbeatable unless you ask very nicely. This is not what i'd do in a PvP-game, and a lot others wouldn't do that, eiter.
It's common and accepted that some players are stronger than yourself at the beginning, but under normal circumstances, you can see where they do better than you, learn and get stronger yourself. However, if a few mp3-gods run about with grown up lore-crits, a few maxed grasans, sometimes drachorns, multi-hitter-eles, tokens, and all that backed with the stats of a young mp5, then people will eventually prefer leaving to wondering how to deal 500 damage per strike.

[size="4"]tasks[/size]
While Willow's Guards are pretty easy, and we do help a lot at berserker's puzzle, the loreguards are pretty offputing for most new players. How the heck should they figure that they can beat them with [spoiler] when they don't even know what a [spoiler] does yet? [spoilers] need a week to grow to [spoiler's attack], and in that week people might decide that they don't want any more of this taunting about finding their weak spots, since even weaken def doesn't really do the trick, and rather keep on playing without entering loreroot until they realize at some point that the lore-crits DO beat them up pretty badly at the start of mp4, sometimes even on mp3.

[size="4"]quests[/size]
quests... hard to find, hard to solve, often based on history of the realm, almost always easier to solve if you know the friends of the setter, and the good rewards are always gone after a few hours. What more to say?

[size="4"]mp5 and GGG[/size]
same as god-mode problem, when people enter mp5, if they get that far, they will face people like me on a regular basis. With that i don't intend to say that i was the strongest mp5, which I'm clearly not, but i am out there to hunt and kill almost all the time, and my defs are pretty nasty, too. Since I pretty much disgust what is being done at GGG, I grab any opportunity to get a win on my little angiens, and i'm surely not the only one, seeing that the people i usually meet out there are always the same, and pretty strong, too (Observer, Dayredeemer, Sparrhawk, eigger... the list goes on, but i admit that i don't know who is really beating up newbies all day long, since i only get attacked once in a while anyway). This is due to a personal conflict with the rules of GGG on my side, nobody 'cept for me is to be blamed of my behavior, but i don't intend to sell myself under value and support the mindless GGG-grinders in their strife to get good crits, stats and principles for free, as this is (imo) not what this game is about. Back then it's intentions were good, support the weak to get crits to the next level so they could once compete in the world out there, but nowadays, people don't care to leave the safety of the Gazebo anymore and try what their crits and strategies can do, but rather stay there until they think to be unbeatable (HA!) enough to survive out there, and guess what they notice? the world out there is empty 'cept for a few _very_ destructive people, and they'd have to take tenfolds the effort they already had to break our defs, and eventually, when their grasans reach their 20.000th win, they'll get bored of it...

(for the record, i know perfectly well that people think of me and people who think like me to be the reason why the GGG is running, and i don't even feel like arguing against that since it's got some truth in it, but if that game was supposed to be peaceful, there would be no attack button when you are on open fields)

[size="4"]lethal weapons[/size]
well, i already cut that issue on god-mode and mp5, but now here's some trouble: some of us are nigh-unbeatable, and we know that's true. Angiens, New Archers, new Hollows, come with what you will, there are a few who won't mind any of those kindergarden-toys, but have their well-fueld tokens on their anti-freezers smash you, instantly and almost failproof. THIS, for once, is NOT our choice (well, for some it is^^), but Mur's rule about losses and our urge to show off with the fact that we CAN avoid it, partly for the sake of our trained stats, partly for the sake of 'i can and u can't'.
Make no mistakes, boys and girls, we've had our weapons all along, but now we are using them... evil defences are what we use as response for a rule that forbids over-losing, and personally, i'll not get off my evil defences before i'm pretty much balanced, and even then i'll think twice before putting xp-trees again...


Solutions? Well, most of those problems are on Mur agenda anyway, like the centralized quest-page, which unfortunately doesn't allow 'normal' people to place quests there yet, a reward-pool, which is still not completely edged out, to give out decent rewards to more than just the 2 or 3 who deserve a WP for a quest, principle draining, skill-damage, new crits... a lot of things are happening every day to solve those problems.

What i miss on the plan yet would be ways of forcing people to advance in their mindpower, which might or might not be a good solution, i haven't thought of all the things that means yet, a shorter 'things-to-read-at-once-without-doing-anything-else-in-between'-story, a more spread-out tutorial, like mp2 was in some ways, ways of making people leave GGG, if only once in a while, ways to make setting unbeatable defs all the time a not-paying-option (to hit two issues at once, if the same crits are used "relatively" too often in a defence [might mean, some are always in a def, others never, or something similar] those crits might randomly replaced by another, or vanish for the def or such, not sure how that works, though), and maybe more, or easier, tasks newbies can deal with between beating willows guards and the loreguards to keep them a bit busy, like easy achievements (get full villager's clothing-set, get 20 PL-entries, for heaven's sake, why not even 'get a grasan to level 3', the codes you need for achievements are already there), interactive quests that give them small, but precious rewards (i think/hope that the MDS is on a very good way to that direction)...


i hope that post is somewhat structured enough so people actually read it, but you know... experience makes me doubt that -.-
thanks for reading if you made it that far, small wonder you all managed the tutorial and the story

Edited November 8, 2009 by Burns

[I am Bored]

but burns, that then begs the question, do they actually know what the game is about? the game is about role playing, not stat grinding, and unless they get that i don't see a reason to try to keep them longer than it takes to spend what they have in the md shop *evil grin* because the server's gotta be supported somehow

[Wolfmist]

I'm new. I guess I am lucky to have gotten through those gates when I did.

Would you be interested in hearing the words of a noob about this game? I have a few things to say, some of which I have already said and perhaps hurt the pride of those who love this game so much in doing so, but I have yet more to say. The question is, would you be willing to [i]listen[/i] to me?

[Chewett]

[quote name='Wolfmist' date='09 November 2009 - 01:40 AM' timestamp='1257730819' post='47030']
I'm new. I guess I am lucky to have gotten through those gates when I did. Would you be interested in hearing the words of a noob about this game? I have a few things to say, some of which I have already said and perhaps hurt the pride of those who love this game so much in doing so, but I have yet more to say. The question is, would you be willing to [i]listen[/i] to me?
[/quote]

Even if people are intrested in debating what they are known for, i want to hear and i will list. What do you think Wolfmist?

[teufelhunden]

Well this is an interesting discussion.....

I have not played for very long but i have tried to make my playing felt by everyone. I have an easy quest going on thats targeted for noobs and i support that guest almost everyday. I give out at least 2 rewards everytime i get on.

I have made the arguement before that noobs need more interaction(look at my post about the clockwork drachorn). This is a fun game but its hard to be a viable new player, i see tons of new people who dont talk and dont interact with anybody. On the other hand i saw one new player (kitty) get a item almost as soon as he started playing. WHATS UP WITH THAT. I can see the value of what he got but how come other new players are not treated the same. I am not saying that every new player is a great addition to the game but some are and they deserve something for trying to play the game properly.

[Wolfmist]

Firstly, as a noob, I like the game. It has options, it has a background story line to set adventure. The graphics are... different... and there is something for everyone from those who want to battle to those who are more interested in story telling, albeit limited resources.

The thing that disappoints me as a noob is the time and patience. YES - I KNOW THATS WHAT IT SAYS ON THE TIN - but it requires too much time and patience. For example, for 2 weeks now I have been stuck in Marind Bell, [i]grinding[/i] experience and training the creatures but without much point. The Heads/Mask event thing put me off big time because people were able to attack me when I was offline and whenever I came online I was worse than dead and could not continue the game.

Noobs should not have to grind to level - no-one should. One should not have to endure bugs and system errors in the hopes of the game - it should just not happen. When one pushes a button, they expect it to work, not knock you into next week without a finger.

Mur, Sir, I believe that I as a noob need more incentive, more initiative to carry on and get my teeth into whatever it is that your loyal fans make them loyal and [i]want[/i] to stay. Anoob shouldn't have to wait for 3 years just to find out what reward loyalty gets them, if anything.

Secondly, the battle concept is too much like Pokemon's "gotta collect them all" approach. In the beginning of the game the whole point is that the player makes their own story - but at the moment all I have seen is the same dull figures and characters that every noob endures here. I am not saying that a tutorial is never needed, no - you got a decent tutorial all the way up to Marind Bell. After Marind Bell everything gets different, but it also gets really really dull. There's nothing to do except battle. The other people who finally managed to get into Loreroot(?) actually have quests to do, something to keep them occupied. I guess this is linking back to the 'grinding' issue, so I'll stop there with that, but basically the battle concept needs something more... a duel needs more than just fighting for honour. I am not sure what could be augmented except maybe a betting scheme for observers and maybe the chance of winning/losing something between players. Yes, I know that can be done privately via giving codes for creatures, etc, but the point is that nobody does win anything but honour and experience per battle. There needs to be something more. Something to give the idea that its Christmas every 3rd day or something. XD

Thirdly, the link between Forum and Game is very loose - too lose for my comfort. What happens in the forum needs to happen in the game, and the same visa-versa. For instance, I was told I could not RP in the forum, that it was SPAM. Where else am I supposed to do it where the rest of the community can join in? I was told to do it in-game with blue writing, but it gets lost, irretrievable. I was told by someone else that I will have something accessible in 30 days in game. I have to wait 30 days!? No thanks. Oh, hey, what about using an external forum? No thanks - the player base and community who know what is already going on is already here, right here. Yes, I want to record and write RP on this forum. For my creativity to be called SPAM I find quite offensive, not only because it hurts my own pride about my own writing (which one could consider to be called art and culture) but also because that is what these kind of games should be about - creativity. No human wants to be a mindless automaton. Let people RP on the forums - you never know, if [color=red]Mur[/color] reads the RP he may come up with something to augment the game to make it more fun.

Next, the wish shop. I like the idea of "if you want it, we'll provide it. For a fee." That's the thing, I am quite poor, as is probably quite a lot of other people. So I am reduced to using the "click a link" for while until I have enough for something might want or might not actually want. "Click a link" is all fair and good for that extra push and for helping spread the word of mouth for your game; however, why not let noobs do some game building and in return give them an entire item? I see many people labelled as "supporter" or something in game. If noobs could become staff for one week or something, that could earn them a really nice creature, spell, artwork or even their own area in the game to do what they want with... the last one may be pushing it a little but I hope it inspires you.

The last thing is interaction. Some people have the talent of "meeting" people on their own. Some don't. I like the idea someone else said of employing a buddy-buddy system; specifying a mentor per noob. But, how does one know if that mentor & noob are enjoying each other's company and pulling each other's weight? The solution to that can be easy in a few ways... but the point is, can veterans really be arsed with dealing with a noob snapping at their ankles every time the log in? All too often I see veterans kicking noobs in the head just because they can. I agree, its funny sometimes to the veteran's mates but to the noob who wants to get on with the game, play and have a good time... its not so funny, really, is it?

Well... I'll rest my fingers for now and see what you lot say, and see if you chose to [i]listen[/i] to me at all. Remember, listening and hearing are two different things.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Wolfmist

[Death Bell]

[quote name='Wolfmist' date='09 November 2009 - 05:14 PM' timestamp='1257767080' post='47066']
Next, the wish shop. I like the idea of "if you want it, we'll provide it. For a fee." That's the thing, I am quite poor, as is probably quite a lot of other people. So I am reduced to using the "click a link" for while until I have enough for something might want or might not actually want. "Click a link" is all fair and good for that extra push and for helping spread the word of mouth for your game; however, why not let noobs do some game building and in return give them an entire item? I see many people labelled as "supporter" or something in game. If noobs could become staff for one week or something, that could earn them a really nice creature, spell, artwork or even their own area in the game to do what they want with... the last one may be pushing it a little but I hope it inspires you.
[/quote]

well mur needs $$ to keep the game running he can't just give you items or credits for free. IF you do the voting thingy every month you will have 6 or 8 credits in your hands. thats more than enough since its free.
And the supporter thing is when a player spends more than $100 in the game.
and i think you are talking about the MD shop not the wish shop, since wish shop needs wish points to buy spells which can be gotten by doing few quests out there.
you didn't have to invest $$ to be strong or to enjoy the game, but after tokens came it all changed and you needed $$ to be strong. Thats why mur is trying his best to fix that and bring it back to normal by doing the draining ability in archers. So give him abit more time. no other choice.

[dst]

Hmmmm...let's see:

1)Time and patience is MDs middle name. It's a strategic move. Imagine you could level your crits wow style (or what other game you can think of) where all you need is to give them experience. In 1 week (with GGG and SG) you would have all crits at max. And then what? You have no idea how they work, what they do, how to use them (don't tell me a noob knows why a grasan is such an amazing crit). You'll get bored and leave the game.
MD is an endurance game where patience is the most prized of the virtues. You say you get beaten by old players. I had almost the same issue when I started to play. And there were no SG and GGG back then. So, I had to adapt. I had to learn how to protect myself and I learned how to grow, what crits to use and what players to avoid (at least until I became stronger).

Noobs do not need to grind. If you say they do then you have no idea what grinding is for MD. There were days when I fought around 500 battles and got almost 400 stat points. THAT is grinding. Not the 50 battles you need for whatever crit that will level in 2 weeks.

2)It is Pokemon style because you need different crits for different things. BTE (before tokens era) rituals were the ones that counted. And back then even a noob was able to defeat the strongest player. How was that noob able to do it? Strategy. And of course at least some knowledge of the game mechanics which is not that hard to get IF you take a minute to read the battle logs. Even now(when there aren't much things to see in it) I really enjoy reading the battle logs because you never know when you spot an interesting thing.

3)You don't need to get to Loreroot for quests. Most quests are designed so they can be solved by new players as well. And getting to Loreroot is a quest itself. Try solving some of the quests listed in the Q list. I agree: right now most of them really really suck but from time to time you can find a fun one. Also there are players that put up quests which are not in the Q list but they use the forum or the mood panel to advertise it. So saying you cannot do quests because you cannot enter Loreroot is bs. Try solving broken pattern if you get bored. You get a wp for it.

4)Forum is NOT for RP. You have the game for that (as you have been told - and I think I was the one who told you about the spam thingy). You wish to write? Perfect! You have soo many personal papers you can use. If everybody would put their stories in the forum then the game would become the forum. That's not the purpose of it. The forum is designed for something else. Yes, you can use it to make yourself known. But not to "play" on it.

5)MD Shop is the life support machine for MD. Without it the game would probably not exist.You can play without the features in the shop. You can enhance your character without ever touching the shop. One thing you cannot do without the shop: be the strongest player. But as most of the RP-ers say (some of them are really hypocrites but that's just my opinion) MD is a RPG (*rolls eyes*) so you don't need to be the strongest. Ugh...I'm going to the twilight zone again and I don't want to so I will stop with this.
"Click a link" you say? THANK GOD there is a click a link.
And you want extra credits? Win HC. Do something amazing that would wipe Mur of his feet and you might get some rewards. Attend the festivals. Solve quests (some of the players give credits as rewards). There are ALWAYS possibilities. All you need to do is ask.

6)There are several "buddy-buddy" systems. Not exactly what you want but they are. And the first one is the LHO system. They are there to help you, to guide you, to teach you. And I must say that at least from the combat system you have 2 of the finest fighters as LHOs. They can teach you tons of stuff provided that you are willing to learn also for yourself. We have a bad habit here in MD:we like secrets. And we don't like revealing them to everybody from the start. They must prove worthy of them THEN they will receive hints and guidance.
Another system is the adept thingy or the worshiper. Usually the "masters" help their worshipers and/or adepts.
You must understand that you need dedicated players for "buddy-buddy" cause not everyone is willing to teach a noob. I, personally, don't have the patience to do it. So for me it would be hell. And I know several others who feel the same.

[Kafuuka]

One of the things that annoy me, is advertising and begging:
"Please become my adept."
"Please vote for my friend, whose name I will not specify, to become king of ..."
"Please look at my thread where I invented a new creature."
"Please look at my trade thread, which is actually an attempt to rip you off."
"Please give me free stuff."
"Please do my quest." <- guilty of this one

At one time, after spending time, effort and silver coins on a quest, the final stage was 'get me three adepts.' I could either demand my coins back or try to solve this simple thing... except that every person I asked already got asked to be someone's adept 10 times, in the last hour! Sometimes people even ask me to become their adept, after noticing that I managed not to fall into the 'free inside information' scam for almost a year, what makes you think I will do so now? Needles to say there are now three very inactive alts adepted to one unfortunate player, so sue me.

And the not specifying names, that's not me who invented that, people really assume I know who their 'friend' is. My train of thought was something like: oh look, someone wants a favor... someone needs to learn how to spell, and perhaps include all details, I wonder whose friend he is and if that person knows people spam in their name, without attention to spelling, or details like who I am supposed to vote for, perhaps they are lucky I don't know who they are... oh well, DELETE.

Quests... for some reason the quest list doesn't seem to work. The week I announced my quest there I got less players than the other weeks. The shiny golden Q button works marvelous though.
Also, what happened to spell documents? They were the inexhaustible reward thingy that was usually tied to relatively easy quests, without the need to be the first and only solver. Quests involving WP are supposed to be the hardest kind, and creatures and coins are limited in supply too.

[Grido]

since dst covered the rest of your post[quote]Thirdly, the link between Forum and Game is very loose - too lose for my comfort. What happens in the forum needs to happen in the game, and the same visa-versa. For instance, I was told I could not RP in the forum, that it was SPAM. Where else am I supposed to do it where the rest of the community can join in? I was told to do it in-game with blue writing, but it gets lost, irretrievable. I was told by someone else that I will have something accessible in 30 days in game. I have to wait 30 days!? No thanks. Oh, hey, what about using an external forum? No thanks - the player base and community who know what is already going on is already here, right here. Yes, I want to record and write RP on this forum. For my creativity to be called SPAM I find quite offensive, not only because it hurts my own pride about my own writing (which one could consider to be called art and culture) but also because that is what these kind of games should be about - creativity. No human wants to be a mindless automaton. Let people RP on the forums - you never know, if Mur reads the RP he may come up with something to augment the game to make it more fun.[/quote]

The forum is for discussion ABOUT the game, it isnt the game itself. rp in game, the forum is not an rp place. Also, your creativity itself was not called spam, it was called spam because you put it on the forum.

[stormrunner]

this may be asking for too much but a month or so ago I had a thought, maybe more newbies would stick around if the could have their rp reflected better in the the fight system. their are a few ways to this the best one I came up with was giving out more wishpoints. like say 5 for finishing story mode at mp 3 then 1 or 2 every time the go up a mp.(execpt 6) that way they could spent them on spells that would fit them and they would have reasons to go a up the mps

just a thought

Edited November 9, 2009 by stormrunner

[Prince Marvolo]

Well, that might be a good idea, get some Wps when you start...
Dont need to be much, but so everyone can get some spells or smt like that...
Which makes the game more interesting, also for newbs

[dst]

Storm, take a look on the wishpoints chart: even not all first 10 players have 10 wps and you want to give them 6? I would double think if 1 is not too much. Give them something else but not wps. That will spoil the hole WP idea.

[Prince Marvolo]

6 is much yes, but 1 or two?
if EVERYONE gets it, it wont make a difference?

[stormrunner]

true but wish points already exist in MD. and what is the point of a shop that is never used. I said 5 because I like 5 as a number for anything a lower number would problem be better. and isn't what I meant this for there to be more wishpoints out there? personally I don't think it would spoil the idea I think it would be better for it because there would be more then 5 people with a decent number. then again the only way for ether of us to know what it would do is see it happen. I am not much for saying thing are bad because in theoy the worst case is.. actually I am have trouble figuring out what that is in this case, newbie being stronger then vets with spells? that is easy enough to fix

[Wolfmist]

Well there we have it. I'm a noob that knows nothing, as I expected and I suppose I am more than a bit lost. Meh... I play another game where it takes many people a year to get to level 2... so I do have patience. But I will argue that grinding is grinding, never mind how many battles it is. To do something for so long with little to no change about how you view the game is grinding - tedious and time consuming. A game is there for fun. I haven't been catching the fun-bug yet. Maybe its not for me? Dunno. Early days yet.

[Kafuuka]

WP thing: this will need a lot of tweaking. Many people don't write their papers in the first ten days and veterans have a better idea of what a WP is worth and what they consider the best use of it. It will also ruin the item creation process if every alt gets 5 WP (+1 from BPP). Why would you ever use one of your own WP for an item again?

RP thing: Roleplay happens in the game, the forum only supports the game. Yet it has been mentioned that after a while what happened in the game is gone. I remember a time when the Tree guardians where recording some of their fun adventures into the archives and were asked to stop doing that because it wasn't serious enough. Should we have instead gone towards the MDNP, should there be another site for it? imo MD is decentralized enough already, with the archives, the fora and the game and then yim and the secret fora... and there's room for an irc channel a decent ebay thing for trading and then an MD blog or twitter?

Principles: this is actually what made me play the game. MD looked different, and then I browsed the site and stumbled upon the principle descriptions and I really liked it. Maybe that is because I am agnostic and really like mythology and symbolism. Anyway I like them but few things are done with them. So far I've witnessed two lectures and saw a couple of quests that were related to them and that's it. Oh and you can reduce them to numbers and use those as magical bullets... an application I don't care about at all.

[stormrunner]

[quote name='Kafuuka' date='09 November 2009 - 03:05 PM' timestamp='1257797148' post='47105']
WP thing: this will need a lot of tweaking. Many people don't write their papers in the first ten days and veterans have a better idea of what a WP is worth and what they consider the best use of it. It will also ruin the item creation process if every alt gets 5 WP (+1 from BPP). Why would you ever use one of your own WP for an item again?.
[/quote]

I think there is a rule about this. but then again I would hate to cause unneeded work

[Kafuuka]

Not using alts to boost one account... but it has been stated before that policing this rule is difficult at best. And it is always better not to tempt people. It is a given that some will try it.

[stormrunner]

true, it is annoying when things like that ruin a otherwise possibly good idea. oh well it will give me something to think about on the way home, though if I remember right at least some items need to be approved before being made if ip addresses were checked it maybe could help(not a perfect answer but a partly one) or maybe a number of active days needed before a item could be made to at least slow it down

[dst]

I have alts that are on the active veteran's list...So active days are not a good criteria.

[I am Bored]

i think that the gates should stay closed for at least a week, or however long it takes to start to see a decrease in the loss of players, you then find how long from the start of the gates being closed, and that should give you a reasonable estimate of when people are quiting....

[Pipstickz]

Alright, my opinion on it is that people actually have to WORK for Wish points...just finishing story mode, getting to MP4 and MP5, that's stuff that anyone can do with very little effort. The new Wish point system (Anyone can give WPs) is meant to increase the number of Wish points going around. Instead of the same people with the same kind of quests all the time, it's different people with different quests. For example, phantasm's scary story quest with a Wish point reward, and Cutler's logic puzzle quest with a Wish point reward were two very different ideas.

[asryn]

So I doubt this is really why most people don't stay, but I do think it's relevant to this thread, so I will say it anyway.

One of the things I have been hearing since I got here is how unique MD is (which it is), and how it encourages a different type of player than many other games. And so when someone shows up who has no patience, and no willingness to work things out on their own, and no interest in talking to other people - most of the time those people leave on their own, which is probably better for everyone. The people who choose to stay take pride in the game that they are helping to develop - and they should, because it's a pretty amazing place.

At the same time, you can't have it both ways. The longer the list of qualities someone needs to have to be welcome in MD, the fewer the number of people who are going to have all of them. And while the pride that people take in MD is part of what I find so attractive about it, I think it sometimes comes across in ways that are not particularly welcoming to newbies.

When a new player expresses frustration with some aspect of the game, or suggests an improvement, or does something that they didn't realize is discouraged, they are often shut down pretty hard, even if their intentions were good. And if they try to ask why, or to start a discussion about it, they are criticized for not having enough patience, or whatever relevant desired quality a good MD player is supposed to have, often in a very dismissive fashion. I've seen this happen multiple times, both in game and on the forum, and I really think it's discouraging. The message seems to be that if you don't have every quality on the list all the time, then you aren't good enough to be part of MD.

I'll use Wolfmist's RP thread as an example, just because it's recent. I actually agree that the forum isn't the place for that, but certainly a reasonable person might have assumed otherwise. And he was trying to develop a character, something many newbies are criticized for not doing fast enough. Couldn't someone have acknowledged that he was trying to make a positive contribution, explained politely why we don't use the forum for roleplaying, and suggested better alternatives? I know that happened eventually, but why couldn't that have been the initial reaction? Again this isn't so much a comment on that specific issue, but I've seen that sort of thing happen many times in different situations.

I'm not saying we need to go out of our way for every newbie standing at the gazebo whining at the top of their lungs, but if someone is displaying at least some positive qualities then maybe we could be a bit more patient and encouraging as they find their way. It's the nature of a game that is different and expects different things from its players that not everyone is going to be a perfect fit right away, but many people could be with a little time. And really, don't we want the type of players who want to understand the game and who get excited about discussing new ideas? I know it creates work for people to explain things, especially when some of the same suggestions get made over and over, but I think it is still worthwhile. Maybe Grido's FAQ will help with this, or maybe people can start saving some of their responses to cut and paste. And who knows, if enough people are bothered by the same issue then maybe it's one that deserves a closer look rather than being dismissed out of hand as 'not how we do things here'.

I think this post is coming across as more critical than I intended it to, but I felt like it needed to be said. MD also has several really fabulous and creative ways of supporting newbies, including the LHOs and and the adept system, and I have seen just as many examples of people going out of their way to be helpful and to answer questions. If MD wasn't an amazing place filled with amazing people, I wouldn't still be here. But I do think that there is a lack of patience with unintentional screw-ups and a level of defensiveness about any implied criticism of the game that seems totally unnecessary to me. The game is still in development, which means that how things work isn't set in stone and isn't always clear, and I'm sure I'm not the only newbie who didn't really appreciate what that meant at the beginning in terms of things not being in their final forms yet. But MD has come a long way, and it is built on a strong enough foundation to withstand some criticism and even a bit of shaking from new players who bounce around a bit as they try to settle in. And I would like to think that it's possible to take pride in what has been accomplished without sending the message that so many people just aren't worthy of being a part of it.