Sparring Grounds

[Shadowseeker]

I hereby wish to announce that I'll alter the way the SG works at the moment. Since I myself am less active lately (and can't seem to find staff the way I wished it for [If you want to blame me for something during the time I held it, blame here]), and also due to a lack of reports in a sense I've decided to altert he rules.

As for the shortage of reports, I get a few perhaps every week or so, but that is if at all. Usually it comes in bursts, 4 different people from the same person, and then silence. I can't try to enforce anything if that's all I get. Of course, people are free to try to to continue it on, taking up what I put down here, or alter it on their own accord.

I found it interesting though how many things were able to be solved with mainly talking, informing the people. I can only remember 2 cases where more than just talking was done, and then it seemed fine.

Instead, I will change the service I offer to Q&A. Question and Answer rounds in the SG, every last saturday in a month. Servertime 20:00. Most likely you will see me trying to answer things within a frame which I don't assume is too spoilerish, but perhaps I'll ask a few other people to lecture as well.

Feel free to discuss.

S

[Pipstickz]

As for the reports (I'm assuming you mean reports of violators), why not use the post office, or a script similar to it?

[Chewett]

If it would be useful i could quickly make a small easier to use script so people could report offenders easily?

[Shadowseeker]

Well, scripting reports is one thing, but where is the difference to reporting to a guy who idles there like 18h per day, and just sits there? I'm checking mail rather regular, and int he times where i was like at leas that much there I barely get anything.

[phantasm]

As you now see Shadowseeker it is not an easy task to conduct the park. You were the one to bring up the idleness of the Dojo, and its many flaws. You took it over, fired the staff, and created the Sparring Ground with great ideals. In my opinion the Dojo was ran much better. For a long time, until Calyx left the game, the dojo was well staffed, and fairly well coniditioned. Not only was it a place to train, but a main hub of RP for the newer players coming in.

It became a place for idle players to gain losses twards the end of its Dojo days, and seem little different now. I do not bring this up as your failings. You are a great warrior, a good quest creator, and a good friend to the community as a whole. I simple hope that you will not be so quick to judge those that attempted to run the Dojo.

[Jubaris]

there are some number of helping mp6s that are around Marble Dale often (I go there from time to time but I can go often, I see Peace there often, I'm sure MasterB will come around if needed), so maybe protectors can organize and take care of the Park? healing spells, advices (they're all veteran of course)...?

[Shadowseeker]

Hm..interesting that there is so little discussion here. About one thing I noticed was, when I said I don't want any of the powers Calyx had, it seemed as if community cared less in getting involved, aside from a few people.

That aside, no more comments as on how to change things? The suggestion from Rhaegar isn't bad, often enough they directly talk to their protectors anyways, instead of me it seems.

I'm just curious, because nobody keeps saying anything.

[Chewett]

The problem is Shadow, people want power, and with Calyx some people saw it as an easy way to get spells. Its sad but true...

Sparring grounds probably needs to be relocated, since MDP seems too close to the starting quests, and too many people attack without asking.

[LadyDawn]

[quote name='Chewett' date='05 January 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1262715571' post='51920']
Sparring grounds probably needs to be relocated, since MDP seems too close to the starting quests, and too many people attack without asking.
[/quote]

I am sorry for interupting but...
I dont think the location would be problematic and it wouldnt need to be relocated but instead of that a "script" [i](or whatever, I have no knowledge about these things)[/i] for the newbies that would pop out rules when they would first launch an attack on a player there. People dont tend to klick on all klicables when they start and with doing just that, they could be informed about special rules on special places... just a thought. [i](to addition one rule should be revriten slightly, the one that is talking about heads; some think, I at first did also, that heads mentioned there is same as noumber of crits that one has)[/i]

[Shadowseeker]

Hm..I can write a sentence more so it becomes clear, but it doesn't change the situation. Interesting how little, almost no response at all is in this topic. Nobody willing to try? To do something?

[Firsanthalas]

Actually for me it has nothing to do with power. I never became a dojo staff member, but I used to spend a lot of time there to help out. Indeed at one point, before Jazira arrived I was often the only 'dojo'(even though officially I wasn't) person there. I have told you why I won't stand around there now, before. Under your current rules anyone can walk by and mash me and repeatedly so if they feel like it. Im not interested in any response along the lines of 'set a better def rit'. I simply don't see the reasoning or logic in being a target for people while trying to do a service.
Im sorry if you think this seems selfish or silly. I have no issue with people attacking me, but I really don't see the point in having a situation where people can decide (and they will) 'hey, I'll pop over to the sparring grounds and hammer Firs' every 25 mins. The fact is, for me fighting is not a big part of MD, but neither is stat loss. Because I don't fight as much as others it simply means that Im going to be heading for stat loss because I choose to try and help. Call me old fashioned, an idiot, lazy or whatever you want, but that is the way that I see it.
Im not looking for any special powers, but if you can tell me that people won't start attacking me and hammering away at me then I will go there and help.

[Chewett]

[quote name='LadyDawn' date='09 January 2010 - 05:16 AM' timestamp='1263014209' post='52262']
I am sorry for interupting but...I dont think the location would be problematic and it wouldnt need to be relocated but instead of that a "script" [i](or whatever, I have no knowledge about these things)[/i] for the newbies that would pop out rules when they would first launch an attack on a player there. People dont tend to klick on all klicables when they start and with doing just that, they could be informed about special rules on special places... just a thought. [i](to addition one rule should be revriten slightly, the one that is talking about heads; some think, I at first did also, that heads mentioned there is same as noumber of crits that one has)[/i]
[/quote]

The issue with this is that, although it is scriptable, it means that Mur would have to do this, and since its a community run prodject he will not change MD for it.

If you moved it further afield you would be able to not be attacked while doing your duty, and it would mean less people could stumble in and attack everyone.

[CrazyMike]

I do agree with Firsan.

I use to help out at the dojo alot (even though I am not a staff). I was there with perro (the robot dog for those who still remember him before he left the game) and it was a safe haven. I didnt think about spells or recognition as helping newbies find their footing was a reward by itself.

I am not weak, and neither am I the most powerful but i do not want to be hit by random attacks. The current situation makes experience players (normally mp5) vulnerable to random attacks. No players would like to be a target for others unless it is for farming losses.

The location has long been discussed previously and it has been decided that MDP is the best choice as that is where the newbies start after exiting the story mode. I am sure the LHOs can assist at the SG as it is catered to the newbies.

Unfortunately, a spell needs to be available for SG helpers. How about a spell that dosent allow attack on SG helpers only at SG?

I feel for you SS, but you have to seriously consider a spell to make it effective.

There are lots of players out there that wants to help, with no thoughts of getting a tag, a spell or any rewards, but you need to figure out how to protect them.

[Udgard]

I used to hang out there, although not as often as others. But I guess the reason is the same for me, I don't want to get random hits. I'm already near skill damage (and not yet able to climb up), and whenever I'm there, I hurrily go away just because I know the other mp5s/alliance members there will farm me if I stay a minute longer.

[Shadowseeker]

Well, the protective part I once had, was simple for me. Just get so strong that you usually don't lose the fights, or don't mind losing. Perhaps that is due to some arrogance that i built up from almost never getting attacked anymore, but I tend to believe it's possible at least to improve to the point where you can withstand some of the strongest people.

Setting a simple, strong ritual that can even beat the crap out of drachorn rituals often enough is easy. Requires one claw3 creature and some more birds. Or just go and adapt the BP method, though that won't work against drachorns.

I even added a rule that the helpers were supposed to be protected to a certain degree, but that didn't work out well.

As for mp5, I can understand why people want to be protected from attacks..but in the end, isn't it also that MP5 is the "veteran" stage or should be if you asked me, and once people wish a truly safe haven they could go to sancs? And..if people really were to wish that, why did I meet so little resistance?

I can understand them being frustrated and all, but if the old dojo staff would have protested in unison, and gathered support I would understand it and may not have attempted to take over. But..they didn't do much.

[Grido]

Unfortunately i cant think of anything to help the SG, i do have to say a couple things in responce to CrazyMike's comment though

[quote]I am sure the LHOs can assist at the SG as it is catered to the newbies.

Unfortunately, a spell needs to be available for SG helpers. How about a spell that dosent allow attack on SG helpers only at SG?[/quote]

Whilst i have no issue (as manager) of LHO's helping at SG, if i told them to go there people would see this as the SG being part of the LHO job, and i know this because it happened with the Dojo, as such people would then send complaints or comments or such through the Live Help messaging system, again i know this from all the complaints about attacks regarding the Dojo.
Just to repeat, i have no issue with LHO's helping there, i just wont tell them to.

Location specific spells dont exist yet(afaik), Mur needs to work on game mechanics or something or other before they can be, i've asked about a different location specific spell before.

[Firsanthalas]

The point about sanc is moot. I can't stay at the Sparring grounds and help without being attacked. I can go to a Sanc and not be attacked and not help. I can be attacked anywhere else in MD, but I also don't have to stand in the one spot and get picked off. To work at the sparring grounds I would actively have to do that. So therefore I cannot just avoid attackers. This is the whole point. Staff there are effectively sitting ducks. And you actually did answer with a 'set up a stronger rit' response.
There is already a topic about how certain people win fights with zero rounds etc. YOu have to realise that there are some rits that are just hard if not impossible to stop. Not everyone has 6 drachs or 3 rustgolds or crap loads of tokens. Against these people most don't have a snowballs chance in hell. Some of these people are also the very ones that will beat on you repeatedly as much as they can. It would seem a simple enough matter to me to ask for staff members to be not targetted while at the Sparring grounds. Its only one location in MD and only of use to them while they are there. Otherwise I feel that myself and other people will simply avoid it and stick to places like GGG to help out at.

It just takes a rule that people would be willing to observe, you don't even have to have a spell or anything.

[Shadowseeker]

Mm..firs. As I said, the stronger rit..I even pointed out the ritual that actually does work. I tested it. Guaranteed, it's winning chances are lower than 50% often enough, but still provides a decent chance. The BP version also isn't bad either. Or imperials. Given, they stand no chance vs 4 or 5 rusts, but against anything less they work. And, if you want to go extreme, you can just kill off all your creats and watch as nobody can attack you literally. I just didn't want to recruit using such a rule, nor even suggest it, as it didn't seem befitting to it.

I can understand that you'd dislike the fact of staying in one place and effectively farming up losses. Still, with the proper rit, there's still ways of winning, even if smaller than theirs. I'm unsure what your current ritual is you have in def, but I suggest you try my suggestion out one day.

Since I don't want this to end up in a discussion as to what people without drachorns can do against those without, I won't say more in this regard.

As for the rule of helpers. I added one, but I couldn't guarantee it being upheld. That's why I formulated it in a way which asks for less attacks if possible, but not a forced one. And even then, if too many were staff, then there would be "lots of MP5 at SG unattackable".

And Firs..then, if it gets out of hand, make a list? If you truly do believe a community related project like this works, then talking with the attackers should help as well. But that in itself would differ from the ideals of the SG as well, partially at least.

To avoid this dicussion altogether I also tried to recruit amongst mp3/4, but it's hard to grab a hold of some of them. Within their category fights are still different, mainly. And this is where I am to blame, since I couldn't keep up a constant renewal.

[phantasm]

besdies the obvious facts that fir, and others have mentioned about the losses taken by the workers in the SG, I think alot of it has to do with the way others want their character to be portrayed.

In a spot where rules are to be upheld by the community and not upheld as a law, warrents the "evil" in. Those who chose to go in and attack without stop to portray a character who goes against the community as a whole. The same thing happened to a few in the Dojo. Even to a point where they were in a lot of trouble, but still persisted to prove their point. I think that builds a good RP base for the character, though it hurts the training grounds as a whole. Even with attack lock, or move lock, or whatever other spell you have in your arsenal they only affect the character for a short time.

For some people a half hour is a considerable amount of time. Most dedicated players see a half an hour as no more then a minute. Some view a week or two in jail as a day. Time is something that most people who enjoy they game reference much less then the things that happen in the game. I think a major downfall in SG, as well as everything else, is RP has declined rapidly. It has become another "Mobsters" game where everyone just wants to fight and try to gather items others don't have. A good example is the hording of the "raw materials". There are certain of those who view these as actual items instead of building blocks. They horde them so they can be "top on the list". For some deranged reason they think that having a bunch of raw mats makes them special from anyone else. Those who actually are trying to create items out of the raw materials are usually stuck, because those with raw materials only want to trade for "actual items" so they can remain on the list. A most obsurd thing, but non the less the raw material market that most of us were so excited about, has now become a monopoly of the few who refuse to lost poistions on the item owners list.

sorry a little off topic, but you get my point. Rules of the community are hard to be followed when most people don't look at the game as a community. They look at it as a place to try and get to the top as fast as possible with the least amount of interaction with the intricacies of the game itself. Wether they are not intelligent enough to comprehend role play, or think the game is a place where role play is not important, the fact remains that only those who wish to play as a community uphold rules as a community.

[SageWoman]

[quote name='LadyDawn' date='08 January 2010 - 11:16 PM' timestamp='1263014209' post='52262']
I am sorry for interupting but...
I dont think the location would be problematic and it wouldnt need to be relocated but instead of that a "script" [i](or whatever, I have no knowledge about these things)[/i] for the newbies that would pop out rules when they would first launch an attack on a player there. People dont tend to klick on all klicables when they start and with doing just that, they could be informed about special rules on special places... just a thought. [i](to addition one rule should be revriten slightly, the one that is talking about heads; some think, I at first did also, that heads mentioned there is same as noumber of crits that one has)[/i]
[/quote]


When I was Dojo mistress I had suggested a pop up sign when clicking on the gates, but it was rejected. I too,think a message should pop up when Marind Bells gate is clicked on but as there was a lack of co-operation back then, I doubt it will change now. Calyx of Isis had also talked about moving the Dojo elsewhere, but that too, never got off the ground. Until a round table of ideas are seriously looked at and implemented, there will be no changes. I would LOVE to be proven wrong.

[Orlando Gardiner]

what about the Marind bell roundabout, well, the big fish just left to the current location. you will actually have to go there and it has the same idea as GGG, you actually have to go there.., think it is a good location to move it to.

but on the other side, it has always been marble dale park.., don't really like seeing it becoming a all to fighting place.., I to sit around there a bit, not having to care for any troubles^^

[CrazyMike]

The types of players in MD will not be easy to be categorized, but for the sake of this thread, lets simplify it and categorize them as Role Players or Warriors. (It is very rare to have a player to be both)

Role Players concentrate on building their roles and seldom train.

Warriors are those who just concentrate on training their stats.

There used to be a balance of Role Players and Warriors.

Role Players used to call the Warriors UBER PLAYERS (players with big stats)

When wars started to happen, Role Players started to understand the importance of strong stats to protect their homelands.

The urgency for everyone to start training started.

GGG became a focal point. Go to GGG and see how many players train there, compared to the earlier days when MR used it to become strong players.

Th point I am trying to make here is that, Warriors seldom think about community issues. They are more interested in fighting, warring, training to be the strongest!

Role Players are those that does a lot of community projects.

I am not saying all RPlayers are weak or that strong players are indifferent.

There are exceptions but they are few and far in between.

Those that truly cares to be a part of SG are normally RPlayers that doesnt have decent stats.

The suggested rits for protection is just not good enough, and if suggested that they train up to have those rits, it is asking them to do the basic warrior work that they had no intention of doing in the first place.

Hence, the suggestion of asking RPLyers to make them rits is easier said then done.

How about making it a rule to not attack SG workers, and if anyone does, SS can seek them out and hurt them? Just a suggestion, not sure if it will work. I remember the dojo was protected by Wodin and Wodin would seek the abusers and give them stat damage if necessary.

[Burns]

Wodin didn't have any realistic chances of winning against anyone after bigC stopped training it, though...

and these days, even the strenght of Shadowseeker and Leixer won't impress anyone unless tehy want to kill them, really XD

What can they do? Kill violators? Whoa, impressive... Since violators are either strong enough to not care, or alts who violate on purpose, there is really SOO much harm in an attack that unbinds my defence and possibly kills one of my creatures, or, mur beware, takes .08 off all my stats...

And just another thing i want to add at this point, the reason why so many irresponsible warriors are around are exactly GGG and dojo, if they had actually been fighting a few times before they reached 3k attack, they'd know that it's no good to dish out losses to anybody alive, and they'd know how to gain their wins and stats without dealing losses to the people who can't afford any more... But, one rant a day, and i already had mine...

I think that the SG should stay where it is, it's fine there, and there are enough community-based means to punish people who feel like pushing poor Firs and other helpers further towards the stat-brink, simply exclude them from the things you run, be it quest, party or training-session...
They don't have to adapt if they don't feel like, but we surely don't have to adapt to them, either!

[CrazyMike]

Yay.... I love what Burns said.

Lets compile a list of names of players who attack helpers, and exclude them from community projects or quests.

They might not care, but at least they will feel the pinch of being left out.

Hopefully if there is enough support from lots of players, it will work.

An idea, those that attack SG helpers are banned from training in GGG.

You think MRD will be agreeable to it?

[Pipstickz]

I doubt it. Then again, I'm not MRD.