Encouraging Others To Find Bugs

[Fenrir Greycloth]

Please vote, and debate.

Also, please explain why you think it is right or wrong.

To clarify, the purpose of sharing is to create a better report, and to learn from how the bug was found, not to abuse for personal gain.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Fenrir Greycloth

[Nex]

my mistake, nevermind then.
[EDIT. reason: apparently not relevant to this topic]

Edited January 8, 2010 by Nex

[Chewett]

No Nex, this isnt based on him seeing whatever you were doing

Fenrir posted paying people to find a certain bug and give him it, and i removed that post, this is the reason he has posted this. to "prove" me wrong.

[Akasha]

Fenrir, it is BAD to ask people to find bugs, report them to you for a creature and after you had fun with the bugs come like a saint to Mur and explain the bug.

If you pass over a bug, this should be immediately reported and not shared with others and get profit over it. It is against the rules and could get you banned.

How you report a bug? Send a mail to manu@magicduel.com with full description of that bug.


[b]PS[/b] : your reasons sound like :

'You know, i did not payed my taxes in order to fully explore the effects on the society and improve the system -> so no reason for me to go to jail'

[Fenrir Greycloth]

[quote name='Nex' date='08 January 2010 - 06:02 AM' timestamp='1262948537' post='52153']
well, since this was at least partly inspired by your alt overhearing me and burns i'll answer:

i think it should be encouraged to understand the mechanics as good as one can. harmless bugs of today are the hidden features of tomorrow if one finds a way to ab/use a known bug excessively it'll get fixed and you have a chance for the bounty. sounds like win - win to me.
in this special case i asked burns to help me test something with empty rits, since he knew the basics of it already and can be trusted not to go wild had we found something.

i am not saying it's fine to randomly spread knowledge of bugs, but exploring the various means on how a known bug can be applied is useful research.
[/quote]


Don't know what you are talking about, but okay...

I do not have alts, nor do I approve of them.

[quote]Fenrir, it is BAD to ask people to find bugs, report them to you for a creature and after you had fun with the bugs come like a saint to Mur and explain the bug.[/quote]

I have no idea what makes you think I would take credit for reporting the bug. Nor why you constantly have to make it look like I kiss your husbands "behind". I would appreciate it if you would stop. I don't insinuate things about you, I don't like it when you do it to me.


Chewett, please remove your post. I want this to be as unbiased as possible from your part. I don't need you influencing the results.

Edit:

Your PS, Akasha, is unclear... What do you mean?

Edited January 8, 2010 by Fenrir Greycloth

[dst]

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='08 January 2010 - 01:17 PM' timestamp='1262949451' post='52156']
Chewett, please remove your post. I want this to be as unbiased as possible from your part. I don't need you influencing the results.
[/quote]

Fenrir, do you ever think before posting? You try to prove him wrong but you don't allow him to state his opinion? Jesus!

As for your question:
You offered a reward for players that will find and report to YOU the hole in Mur's system of hiding crits. Again I ask: do you ever think before opening your mouth or typing?

[Akasha]

Would you like me to quote your previous topic? That one with the contest on who finds the hole and report it to you, so you can see the secret creatures and after you have your thing, you will go and report it to Mur ?

You want to prove something stating that phrase : 'your husband' ?

Do you feel like kissing his back if you go and report a bug? do you? do you ?

PS: dst had a role on reporting bugs i would choose my answer wisely if i where you

[Fenrir Greycloth]

This is enough. All you are doing is spamming my topic. Please stop.

[Akasha]

We are simply answering to your pole, which is not in the right section btw, should be in the offtopic, considering the subject and answers.

Moved to offtopic.


[u][b]UPDATE :[/b][/u]

A Quote from trashcan of his contest that we are speaking about in here, the true reason of this topic, at least that is what some of us think

[quote]Posted Today, 11:11 AM I am commissioning everyone(not the person ) to find out how to access the hidden creature pictures. There was once a link we could go to, to see hidden creatures, but we can no longer access it.

I would like you all to help me, and find out a way to circumvent(legally) the security Mur has put up.

If you find a way to view these, you can choose any two creatures I own. And they will be yours.

Of course, the hole in the security will be immediately reported after I have gleaned what I could from the images once again.

NOTE: If I find nothing new from the images, you will not be rewarded. I have not seen any of the new creatures released yet, and I would like their images for a project I am working on.

Happy Hunting!

NOTE 2: Mods, yes this is questionable, but it is in good conscious and I doubt Mur would object to others finding out how to circumvent his security so that he may fix it.
The Crafters Guild also accepts RP creation requests. From decorating a bar to preparing items for a tribute to your king, we are here to serve you anytime!

I am the Seeker of Lockets, my knowledge on historical artefacts is extensive. My knowledge of how to build them is not nearly as great, thus I can't duplicate them. However, I can make simple items through the great art of Goldsmithing! [/quote]

[Fenrir Greycloth]

No you are not. You are using this as an opportunity to trash me, as you do with any opportunity. I have never been rude to you(been honest but not rude) and I doubt I deserve this kind of attitude from you.

This topic has little to do with the topic. It may have originated because of it, but the questions are not in reaction to my topic, but to a conversation I had with Chewett.

Now, please, stop with the attitude and get back on topic, please.

Edit:

Not sure why you felt that this should go in Offtopic, when it was Ontopic before you got your hands on it.

There were two questions, and each with two answers. Therefore... it should belong in the Questions and Answers of the forum because the Q&A is about MD. Therefore, not off topic.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Fenrir Greycloth

[dst]

Questions & Answers is a subsection dedicated to FAQ type of questions. Topics similar to your should go to Off topic or General. But you should know this by now since you're a mod, aren't you?

[Shadowseeker]

Fenrir..the way this topic sounds is as if you wish to convey the message that you try to get approval for something you tried, and now wish to get out unharmed, backed by the community.

As for sharing..the very best method to get bugs to be abused is sharing. Share to one, split to all is what it means. So if you want to share, either test not telling them what you did, and testing on trustworthy people (the list is long here, I trust quite a few), and directly reporting back. It's easier to fix if you can fully explain WHAT the hole is, but keeping a bug to use it fully, and worse, publically rallying for it is like saying:

Hey, the code is lacking. Let's abuse the poor code and gain benefits, so we all can be happy.

This topic isn't showing you in a good light.

[Chewett]

Fenrir, if you want to debate your topic, We can do it here.

If you want to talk about this generally, then i will close this and you can make a new topic. But that will mean you accept the punishment that you have been given.

Its your choice now.

[Udgard]

My opinion, based on the thread title only:

1. Yes, it is acceptable to encourage people to find bugs an report it so it can be fixed.
Those who seek loopholes will do so with or without reward (as they will reward themselves mostly by abusing it), and I think the current system with Mur offering bounties for bug/exploit reports is a good one. It's better to have those with the abilities working with us, not against us. This is in the context of how bug bounties are handled in MD, though. I would not encourage other people to encourage others to find bugs and report it to them. There is already an official bounty from Mur, we don't need extra personal benefactors.

2. Yes, I don't mind sharing bugs with others in order to learn more about it. [b]BUT[/b], only if I cannot analyze the cause by myself, and I will only share it with those I know I can trust AND have dealt with bug reports professionally before, not just share it with anyone for the sake of testing. If I have sufficient confidence that I know what causes it, I might ask some help to confirm that suspicion so I can report it to Mur right away, but otherwise it is report first, then more testing if Mur hasn't responded yet.

And a clarification, this means I don't agree with players giving personal rewards for others to find bugs and report it to them. Bugs should be reported to Mur directly once you've found out what is causing it. There is no need to share it with others if you already understand the cause and how to use the bug.

[Pipstickz]

I voted that it's fine to encourage others to find bugs, BUT not so they can just give them to someone else instead of reporting them. If you want to give them a reward for finding the bug, go ahead, but don't reward them so that you can (ab)use it, figure it out yourself (and, of course, report it).

In the second poll, I voted that no, it shouldn't be shared. If someone can't find a bug in the first place, why should they just have it given to them? More importantly, imagine if someone found a way to increase attack by huge amounts. What would happen if they shared it? Very unbalanced fighting, and more work for Mur with resetting stats. In the end, it's just a big mess that doesn't make anyone happy.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Pipstickz

[awiiya]

I know for a fact that there has been black market trading of bugs, of that there is no doubt in my mind. It was almost wide-spread among veterans for a while. Is that wrong or right? I'm not sure it's either, it just was.

However, not one person ever went public and put an advertisement offering to pay for others to find bugs. That was exclusively for Mur, and with good reason.

So now, you have created a sticky situation, Fenrir. While it was done underground, Mur could allow it to happen because in truth it increased the safety of the community by finding bugs and then reporting them. Now, however, when it is out in the open and submitted to [b]poll[/b] no less, there is no doubt in my mind that you have forced him to provide a stance on the issue.

Furthermore, there is no other possible stance for him to take besides that this is not okay. Encouraging this kind of behavior outright allows it to get far out of hand, and one thing follows another.

Congratulations. By putting this out to the open, you have limited the free reign of bug finders and traders, and nobody will ever consider finding a bug for you (they might have, if done in private).

Awi

Edited January 9, 2010 by awiiya

[Orlando Gardiner]

owh, I misunderstood: I tought it was about moderators or mur himself to ask people to help search for bugs, and to share those bugs with them. for other people: to easily to abuse it, let moderators take care of this.