Pipstickz Posted March 13, 2010 Report Posted March 13, 2010 Personally, I agree with kings giving WP to their citizens, to a point. If the land has varying quest types, and more than a few citizens that will participate, then yes, I'd encourage it. It leads to actual borders between lands and some healthy competition within them.
Firsanthalas Posted March 13, 2010 Report Posted March 13, 2010 [quote]And I will never ask to sponsor any of my quests since unfortunately probably none of the loreroot people will be able to complete it.[/quote] Should Loreroot people just start wearing yellow stars? I am spent. Jubaris and Chewett 1 1
Orlando Gardiner Posted March 15, 2010 Report Posted March 15, 2010 [quote name='Udgard' date='13 March 2010 - 03:22 AM' timestamp='1268450533' post='56310'] Okay, let's look at this again. Talking about discrimination? Let's use a simple real world example. Suppose you want to get a job, of course there will be discrimination based on your [u]skills[/u]; those who have the skills more suitable for the job will undeniably get an advantage and be more likely to get hired. That's no discrimination: that's the law of nature, [u]survival of the fittest[/u] (in that field). But when you are excluding people for their ethnicity, for example, that is [u]discrimination[/u]. And an unjust one I must add. [/quote] Not that I disagree with your point, but something decided on someones skill is not discrimination. Some people so seek the fittest, as you say, it wouuld be discrimination if you exclude someone for something that has nothing to do with it.(for example being from another land in MD) apophys 1
Udgard Posted March 15, 2010 Report Posted March 15, 2010 Well, that's exactly my point =) Skill difference is not discrimination. Deciding based on ethnicity (or, in MD word, land affiliation), is.
Kamisha Posted March 15, 2010 Report Posted March 15, 2010 [quote name='Udgard' date='15 March 2010 - 12:19 PM' timestamp='1268673554' post='56461'] Well, that's exactly my point =) Skill difference is not discrimination. Deciding based on ethnicity (or, in MD word, land affiliation), is. [/quote] I just think this land affiliation thing has taken things way out of proportion i'm not for or against land affiliation. I just think alot of the quests of independents get ignored and left by those that can sponsor them. Cause currently there are only 4 kinds of people that can sponsor them. 1) Mur 2) People that used to be an RPC and haven't used up there free codes. 3) Those that have to coins to buy codes 4) Kings. I just think the whole thing is unbalanced. I have a sponsor im cool with that but the thing is every time I move on I have to post a quest and hope somebody will jump in and through them selves in with me. Kings arnt going to do it because im not part of a land. Those who bought them think again why do you think they bought them to give them away? People who are RPC's would rather use them them selves because its what there good at. Then mur is just plain hard to find and I mean when you talk to him he doesn't want to hear about whats good and bad about the game until experimental stage. During the time that he isn't working he likes to consider him self just a normal player like the rest of us. I mean he created MD for other people and even more so him self. He likely does make some profit but not huge a lot of it goes into advertising. I'm sry I got side tracked. I'm just saying wishpoint codes are going to turn into horded products until the codes expire. There just going to get tied up and quests are going to get butchered till they can factor in at least a point to the sponsoring land by what ever clause they can factor in. I'll give you an example for Firsanthalas I wanted to create a quest in order to get wish points to give away. I had to give him an idea (now before you attack this I didn't submit it because it was firstly too late and secondly the clause that one point had to go to loreroot restricted what I wanted to do). My idea was to take a personality test of people and by there most prominent trait of the 5 I would create a sort of race for [b]each land[/b](first broken rule has to stay in the same land) gathering points for choosing the wrong answer for your personality or correct one depending on which way you look at it. Then I have to factor in the independents which I [b]would randomly select a land to make it even chances for each person to win[/b](theirs the second rule broken). Just about any quest should give each person a [i]even[/i] chance to win. Now im stuck looking for a sponcer who can pay the correct amount of wish point codes to sponsor it. I'm just saying putting restrictions due to land causes major problems on both the quest creator and the participants reward strategy.
Shadowseeker Posted March 15, 2010 Author Report Posted March 15, 2010 Sidenote: He likely does make some profit but not huge a lot of it goes into advertising. Actually from what I know Mur is paying for it, not receiving..That's why he needs credits. And yeah Kamisha, this is what I refer to. It's due to the fact that the quests get uneven, so I at times feel like lands basically promise: Hey, as long as you join us, within XX days you shall get a WP. Now if you stay with us more, and talk with me enough, I might even toss in a 2nd, or 3rd: I just need to open a new land specific quest, and it's only like 4 people competing with 3 winning! Quality of entrants partially is poor...but has anyone even wondered why at times? No, it does not have to do with the fact that you just pick a handful of players who can even start at all. Not at all, it isn't it. (heavy sarcasm for anyone who fails to notice) Watcher and Chewett 1 1
Kamisha Posted March 16, 2010 Report Posted March 16, 2010 [quote name='Shadowseeker' date='15 March 2010 - 04:15 PM' timestamp='1268687737' post='56470'] Sidenote: He likely does make some profit but not huge a lot of it goes into advertising. Actually from what I know Mur is paying for it, not receiving..That's why he needs credits. And yeah Kamisha, this is what I refer to. It's due to the fact that the quests get uneven, so I at times feel like lands basically promise: Hey, as long as you join us, within XX days you shall get a WP. Now if you stay with us more, and talk with me enough, I might even toss in a 2nd, or 3rd: I just need to open a new land specific quest, and it's only like 4 people competing with 3 winning! Quality of entrants partially is poor...but has anyone even wondered why at times? No, it does not have to do with the fact that you just pick a handful of players who can even start at all. Not at all, it isn't it. (heavy sarcasm for anyone who fails to notice) [/quote] Though it isnt that serious I do believe that being part of a land does give you a couple shots at a few free wishpoints. The most atrocious thing that ive seen is that marnid bell was offering WP in order to get there items back. Wishpoints are not not to be used as cash. People may count it as a bounty. Though a bounty requires work in order to get the cost. This would just be luck of the draw. Kyphis the Bard 1
Pipstickz Posted March 16, 2010 Report Posted March 16, 2010 So you think free wish points aren't a problem, but as rewards for something are a problem?
Kamisha Posted March 16, 2010 Report Posted March 16, 2010 [quote name='Pipstickz' date='15 March 2010 - 10:07 PM' timestamp='1268708826' post='56481'] So you think free wish points aren't a problem, but as rewards for something are a problem? [/quote] OK you completely misinterpreted what I was trying to say or maybe I wasn't clear. Posting a bounty is fine though a bounty for something requires work in order to get there for wish point is fine. However posting a bounty for an item that is randomly distributed and thus no work was required to get it rewarding a wish point is not a reward but a payment. I understand what im saying is a bit hard to comprehend because both are bounties. Though for items given for free without work to obtain them should be paid for in order to get them but wish points arnt supposed to be payment they are supposed to be rewarded for completing some feat or doing something nobody else would do in other words being unique.
Yoshi Posted March 16, 2010 Report Posted March 16, 2010 [quote name='Kamisha' date='16 March 2010 - 02:21 AM' timestamp='1268720507' post='56483'] However posting a bounty for an item that is randomly distributed and thus no work was required to get it rewarding a wish point is not a reward but a payment. [/quote] It wasn't just one item, it was multiple items, which requires time, wealth, diplomacy of sorts, and just basic likability. If it was just one item, it wouldn't have been worth a WP.
Yrthilian Posted March 16, 2010 Report Posted March 16, 2010 Ok let me get this clear. The issue is that people who are non land associated are upset they don't get WP's as easy as someone who is. This is what seems to be the basic moan on the whole matter from what i read that is. Well let me see. From RL and non RL this is going to happen. I cant go to England and demand the payed there social welfare because i am there and have not got a job. I have to wait 6 months before that may happens as this shows to them i intend to stay in the country. Technically this means i am becoming a member of there land. [b](note this is just an example)[/b] So applying that logic to in game there is no difference. It is though luck. you CHOOSE to be non allained to a land that is a choice [b]you[/b] made. Now so far i have not been asked by a non land member to sponsor there quest. I have a very open policy on the matter for those that are non members. So to me i don't think you have a valid argument in this. Unless you can prove the no king would back a quest. Now in saying that i do have an idea that might work but will talk with the kings first before i say anything here. There are many minor issues you all have with the use of the WP's kings have. Some can be validated for there use some may need explaining more but that is up to each king to decide if he.she should have to. As we are kings and there is only one person that can ask us to validate a choice we made in regard to the WP's.
Udgard Posted March 16, 2010 Report Posted March 16, 2010 Am I getting this all wrong? I thought the power given to kings are to decide for themselves how to distribute their WP [b]codes[/b], not the WP itself. If that is indeed what Mur wants, then so be it, though I really think it's a really big setback on MD if kings are allowed to distribute WPs however they wish. What I believe is that kings/lands own, and was given, WP [b]codes[/b] as their treasury, and it is up to them how to use it to increase the welfare of their citizens. I never considered WP themselves as property owned by lands/kings/whatever.
phantasm Posted March 16, 2010 Report Posted March 16, 2010 [quote name='Yrthilian' date='16 March 2010 - 05:48 AM' timestamp='1268732889' post='56488'] Ok let me get this clear. The issue is that people who are non land associated are upset they don't get WP's as easy as someone who is. This is what seems to be the basic moan on the whole matter from what i read that is. Well let me see. From RL and non RL this is going to happen. I cant go to England and demand the payed there social welfare because i am there and have not got a job. I have to wait 6 months before that may happens as this shows to them i intend to stay in the country. Technically this means i am becoming a member of there land. [b](note this is just an example)[/b] So applying that logic to in game there is no difference. It is though luck. you CHOOSE to be non allained to a land that is a choice [b]you[/b] made. Now so far i have not been asked by a non land member to sponsor there quest. I have a very open policy on the matter for those that are non members. So to me i don't think you have a valid argument in this. Unless you can prove the no king would back a quest. Now in saying that i do have an idea that might work but will talk with the kings first before i say anything here. There are many minor issues you all have with the use of the WP's kings have. Some can be validated for there use some may need explaining more but that is up to each king to decide if he.she should have to. As we are kings and there is only one person that can ask us to validate a choice we made in regard to the WP's. [/quote] As far as I see it, the reason this post was started, was to ask why quests were restricted to lands. Shadow was pointing out that people are starting to make quests and only allow the people from their lands to participate. That others who enjoy questing, but aren't a part of that land, can't have a try at it. Something I think is not right. That, however, is for the quest maker to decide. Almost all quests have a restriction of some sort or another. What it seems to have become off topic twards, is the distribution of WPs. The bias in wich kings hand out WP codes, and the trouble that those affiliated with lands from non king lands trouble in acquiring WP codes. If you aren't affiliated with any land it's easy enough to be. The more important issue is the fact that those who lead, or are dedicated to alliances that aren't in a king/queen land don't have access to WP codes. There are several out there like this who create wonderful quests, but have not lately due to they have nothing to offer other people. Before we go any further on this, as most people know I myself am about to start a rather large quest, as a result of a rather long progression. Being the leader of the CT's in the Tribunal proved an issue for a while. As another topic states, those with said problem should seek out Kings/Queens and barter with them for WP codes to use. Through much difficulty and much conversation I was able to acquire a few WPs off different Kings in order to make this quest a realization. I think in a way it's a good thing because they make sure the quest, in their eyes, is worthy of handing out WPs. I honestly think that all WP code hand outs should be as thoroughly checked as mine was, then perhaps the WP hand out bashing won't become any more of an issue then some people have already made it.
Udgard Posted March 16, 2010 Report Posted March 16, 2010 Well.. before this goes (probably) way off topic... let's get things straight. What are we discussing here? WP distribution, or WP codes distribution? I get the feeling that it's WP distribution (via 'restricted' quests) that is what the topic is about (CMIIW, shadow). Things seems to start to be mixed up on the codes and on the WPs themselves here, and sometimes I can't tell what people are actually talking about, because I see them often referred to as if they were the same.
dst Posted March 16, 2010 Report Posted March 16, 2010 For me is simple: -WP [u]codes[/u] should be distributed as the owners like -WP distribution should not be restricted and of course well monitored (we already have abuse cases and I don't want more).
Shadowseeker Posted March 16, 2010 Author Report Posted March 16, 2010 Alright, thanks for pointing that out udgard, I edited the topic title. It's about both actually..both WP codes and WP's, however with WP codes I have to admit that the kings do OWN them, so the center is about the WP resulting after this.
Kafuuka Posted March 16, 2010 Report Posted March 16, 2010 [quote name='Yrthilian' date='16 March 2010 - 10:48 AM' timestamp='1268732889' post='56488'] The issue is that people who are non land associated are upset they don't get WP's as easy as someone who is. This is what seems to be the basic moan on the whole matter from what i read that is. [/quote] There are several issues, one of the claims is that some WPs are given virtually for free or as payment instead of a quest reward. Those who are not associated with a land do not want to get WPs as easy as that. Of course this is a generalization and there will certainly be people who do want free lunches, but then again it's no worse a generalization than yours. [quote]I cant go to England and demand the payed there social welfare because i am there and have not got a job. I have to wait 6 months before that may happens as this shows to them i intend to stay in the country. Technically this means i am becoming a member of there land. [b](note this is just an example)[/b][/quote] You could go to any country that has ratified the Shengen agreement and get paid immediately. In Europe, England is the exception, not the norm. Furthermore irl being a citizen implies you pay taxes, which is where the money for social welfare comes from. So far I have not seen anything even remotely like taxes in MD, although if the new rule were that for every 5 WP a citizens earns, he offers one to the king, who then redistributes it as he pleases, I think that would be very interesting. [quote]So applying that logic to in game there is no difference. It is though luck. you CHOOSE to be non allained to a land that is a choice [b]you[/b] made.[/quote] Not necessarily true. I'm certain some people who applied for citizenship are still being processed... although that kind of bureaucratic problem is very real life like. And there's also lands without kings. If one chose to be allied to such a land/guild/alliance before this issue arose, do you consider it wrong for them to stick to that decision? If I were king I would not want people to join my land solely for opportunistic reasons.
Yrthilian Posted March 16, 2010 Report Posted March 16, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Kafuuka' date='16 March 2010 - 02:31 PM' timestamp='1268749878' post='56499'] Not necessarily true. I'm certain some people who applied for citizenship are still being processed... although that kind of bureaucratic problem is very real life like. And there's also lands without kings. If one chose to be allied to such a land/guild/alliance before this issue arose, do you consider it wrong for them to stick to that decision? If I were king I would not want people to join my land solely for opportunistic reasons. [/quote] The issue with citizenship is another issue all together. But in regards to applying for citizenship. don't use the system! as it is not working and the kings don't get to see it at all as it is not complete. This i believe was already announced in the updates. Now with regards to the WP codes and giving WP's I do agree this needs to be separated. The WP codes are ownership of the kings and it is there choice and rule that governs those codes. As regards who those WP go to after the code is given. Well that is another matter. I for one don't limit the quest creators to land only or 1 forced to a land only player. but that is a personal thing. I cannot speak for the other kings as that is there choice on what they do with there codes. Paying for things useing WP's I will 100% admit i have done this and i have no qualms about doing it. I do it for very good reasons and i don't have to justify them here. Only Mur can ask that of me if he feels i have abused the WP codes. Now i agree on one matter of the WP's but then this comes down to each quest creator and how the wish to award the WP/code. I have given the codes to each persion i have sponcered and let them use it there way. This i believe is fair. But why should they just use the code its self and award the WP. Why not just reward the code after wards. It is just a suggestion of how to look at rewards. Making quests to gain codes is just another option in its self. Since this matter has been brought up about non land people not getting codes. I have been working on an idea as mentioned above. I will explain it when i have cleard up a few things first and then will anounce it. You may not like it then again you might but we will see. But i think for now we are happy to say this WP codes are the kings to do as they wish. assign as they please. It is what is done with the wish point after wards that is now the main issue. Am i correct in this? I want to be sure we are all on the same page so to speak Edited March 16, 2010 by Yrthilian
Kamisha Posted March 16, 2010 Report Posted March 16, 2010 [quote name='Yrthilian' date='16 March 2010 - 10:35 AM' timestamp='1268753747' post='56500'] The issue with citizenship is another issue all together. But in regards to applying for citizenship. don't use the system! as it is not working and the kings don't get to see it at all as it is not complete. This i believe was already announced in the updates. Now with regards to the WP codes and giving WP's I do agree this needs to be separated. The WP codes are ownership of the kings and it is there choice and rule that governs those codes. As regards who those WP go to after the code is given. Well that is another matter. I for one don't limit the quest creators to land only or 1 forced to a land only player. but that is a personal thing. I cannot speak for the other kings as that is there choice on what they do with there codes. Paying for things useing WP's I will 100% admit i have done this and i have no qualms about doing it. I do it for very good reasons and i don't have to justify them here. Only Mur can ask that of me if he feels i have abused the WP codes. Now i agree on one matter of the WP's but then this comes down to each quest creator and how the wish to award the WP/code. I have given the codes to each persion i have sponcered and let them use it there way. This i believe is fair. But why should they just use the code its self and award the WP. Why not just reward the code after wards. It is just a suggestion of how to look at rewards. Making quests to gain codes is just another option in its self. Since this matter has been brought up about non land people not getting codes. I have been working on an idea as mentioned above. I will explain it when i have cleard up a few things first and then will anounce it. You may not like it then again you might but we will see. But i think for now we are happy to say this WP codes are the kings to do as they wish. assign as they please. It is what is done with the wish point after wards that is now the main issue. Am i correct in this? I want to be sure we are all on the same page so to speak [/quote] Agreed minus the payment part.
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