Sociology Of Md?

[Jubaris]

I have a lot to say about all of that, but we went too much off the course. All offtopics can and will be be discussed in any message directed at me or in any other new topic if you want it so.

I also mentioned number of things that are drawing attention away from the main post and the essence.

[b]Ok so I'll summarize it.
[/b]

MD was made in that way that viewers fill it with their own thoughts (semi-finished drawings done in white and black, and such. Everything is evolving around imagination), and that's what makes it so great for artists.
Mainlands backgrounds are supposed to be the most important thing in all that. If you drop in a fixed authority as the only one to represent the land, you limit all the imagination to that one man/woman, you are eliminating other interpretations (for example, Ravenstrider thinks Loreroot should be a dark, mysterious, dangerous forest, while someone else thinks of it as a cookie farm diversity of thoughts, yey).

Now, that can be lesser evil if all those that represent their lands (4) materialize and follow a certain vision, that gives some activity to the realm, everyone working towards that vision, there are some events on level of a kingdom, or on an "international" level. I don't see that... (one vision for one land, not one vision for everyone )
That's why I think authorities on that level limit things and "ruin" the game, especially if treated that badly.
Kings were brought for a reason, but I don't see the product of their making.

Edited October 7, 2010 by Rhaegar Targaryen

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1286476885' post='69863']
MD was made in that way that viewers fill it with their own thoughts (semi-finished drawings done in white and black, and such. Everything is evolving around imagination), and that's what makes it so great for artists.
Mainlands backgrounds are supposed to be the most important thing in all that.
[/quote]
Really? I'd have thought that AL and Story mode were the most important background information givers.

[quote]If you drop in a fixed authority as the only one to represent the land, you limit all the imagination to that one man/woman, you are eliminating other interpretations (for example, Ravenstrider thinks Loreroot should be a dark, mysterious, dangerous forest, while someone else thinks of it as a cookie farm diversity of thoughts, yey).[/quote]
The 'fixed' has been contested repeatedly already. The 'only' is also contestable, eg. for Necrovion I can think of six characters that have a 'cultural advantage'. I have yet to witness any of the kings try to dominate the interpretation market, with the emphasis on attempting.


It also seems to me this topic is not as philosophical as it pretends to be. Which is very disappointing to me. "Culture and Personality"? You need a dozen pages to define those concepts in real life. In MD you have an additional layer: there is the personality of the player and the one of the character. The culture of the player and of the character. You're talking about culture in MD, afaik, so you should restrict to the personalities of characters in MD. Not that there were many of your premises I believed before, but with this extra dimension, I think it is safe to say I refuted ALL of them.

[Magnus X]

the king - subject, president - artist analogy is unsound. comparing a country's huge population and political and social complexity to the mini world of MD doesn't fit. and in real world, we do have censors - we have the freedom to do anything we want but it doesn't mean it'll get approved.

Moreover, kingship is a monarchy, not a democracy therefore a king's wishes is the law of the land. so whats the issue here? is it the establishment of the kingship that you are against of? did you not imply that they were put into power unjustly? were they not elected by the masses? were they not chosen based on highest loyalty points to their respective lands? is it not only right that one should call upon their king's advice before undertaking a project or campaign?
thats the root of the matter (not the inn ), is it not?

MD is a reflection of RL, what do you expect?

[Jubaris]

Kafuuka, the basis is the free flow of thoughts which leads to culture (you shouldn't look at my words strictly since I present things relatively here). Yes AL gives the info about nature of the realm, but that wasn't my point, I was pointing out at the "blank" part of the realm where imagination comes, and artistic minds get to the "stage".



we are getting a bit offtopic, but to answer - Magnus, you said "we have the freedom to do anything we want but it doesn't mean it'll get approved. " - but that isn't freedom.
the point is, if someone forces his way to become leader of a group and acts like a dictator, ok, you can't do anything about it, you were beaten, the dude has "gorillas" with high stats to defend and enforce his word, etc. But it's different getting it via realistic RP than the "god" overpowering a new position. I don't know do you understand me.
I'm uneased that wherever you go, you are dependent on the vision of others. Rare are the places where "free flow of the thoughts" is welcome. It's my feel, maybe you people ain't that troubled by anything.

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1286437127' post='69802']
If you're a supreme that means all others are below. You can pick another land, considering that every mainland has its supreme ruler, and that leaves us to Tribunal, but Mur said he has plans for it as well, so the idea of Tribunal remaining as the last "free" land will run out eventually.)
[/quote]
You ignore the Archives, Maze, and Underground.

The Archives have no Leader, even though it has Alliances, and the Underground is in the same situation.

The Maze is different in that you can't become a citizen of it, but it does have citizens, and no ruler.

There are four non-main, or "free" as you put it, lands to join that have no "supreme ruler", as you put it, just as there are 4 main lands with "supreme rulers", as you put it.

[Fyrd Argentus]

Here's something - maybe it belongs under new ideas. Suppose you were to make the Kingship powers to be strictly derived from the consent of the ruled, in exchange for the benefits from belonging.

Jailing powers over the ruled, going to the majority vote candidate, is already consistent with this.

Say EVERYBODY gets one wp code per so many active days, but joining a land pools that resource under the leader.

Say the house land bonuses come to any group depending strictly on citizen count (sort of the added synergy of interaction = [N squared minus N]/N).

And so forth. You could juggle the rules just a little bit so that all the King's powers are either derived from their subjects, or are a pure administrative function.

[Edit - oh, and you would have to allow anybody to form a "group" that could muster supporters. And you would have to have fights/contests over who "owns" each scene, with a handicap/feedback system that favors the smaller landholder.... Maybe even have some coop land ownership scheme..... add scenes with player count....]

Would we be happy with the Kingship model then? I personally would find it more esthetically pleasing, but would we have a better game?

Edited October 8, 2010 by Fyrd Argentus

[Jubaris]

Kyphis, Archives are neutral, and have a function as a land, it's like a supporting unit in a way. Not much free space there, since it is limited by default. (I'm not trying to degrade MDA, please don't get insulted, it is not my intent. I'm pointing out that Archives do not fit "my requirements" of a free land that could go in whatever way if it "wants" to)

Underground only has DST's alliance and it's function is to collect people that know how to abuse game mechanics or whatever it is meant to do As a land, sure it sounds nice for RPing, but how to assign it as your homeland? Without making dst a queen, the only way is to form a new alliance. It requires some influence, shouting around and advertising how certain someone has a group to be formed as an alliance... That idea fell to my mind and maybe I could develop something like that out of the shattered influence I remained with, but what would a new person do? What are the chances that someone "fresh" makes a new alliance? It might be possible, I don't know Mur's opinion on that, but the one thing that is known about alliance-making, is that not one alliance was made by request of another players since Knights of the Bell.
Cryxus had his pirates for period of time, and still he didn't get an alliance. But I don't know much details about that one, maybe the story has it's own reasons to tell.

But maybe being "handicap" without a tag about your homeland isn't that big of a deal... Just live there and make it your homeland That might be ok for a MD life of one person that wish to be alone in the game, but that's it. If someone wants to gather some people around an idea, common interests, it would be pretty hard, since it ain't that attractive to join a group while there are so many others that have all the privileges of being an official group.

In any case, those requirements of being free only Underground fills for now. And that is adequate for you?




what Fyrd's think of as main issue in kingships is obviously WP codes but thumbs up, I think that should be changed too. Also, it would be unpolitical from my side to say I like your coup ideas too.
Saying from a point in time where Kings are still pretty much safe, I support also the idea that Kings pull power based on the quantity (or quality?? like those loyalty scores that were implemented recently...) of their "subjects". But I think cause of those loyalty scores, game is already heading that way.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1286521432' post='69903']
Kafuuka, the basis is the free flow of thoughts which leads to culture (you shouldn't look at my words strictly since I present things relatively here). Yes AL gives the info about nature of the realm, but that wasn't my point, I was pointing out at the "blank" part of the realm where imagination comes, and artistic minds get to the "stage".
[/quote]
relatively
Part of Speech: adverb
Definition: in or by comparison
Synonyms: almost, approximately, comparably, comparatively, nearly, proportionately, rather, somewhat, to some extent

Relatively to what? I copied a dictionary entry for you to look at and see how your use of the word relatively makes no sense at all. You cannot compare one thing; you need something to compare it to. If you're willing to reply 'mea culpa, I meant figuratively,' then don't bother. You don't use any sensible analogies anywhere and frankly, your willingness to use proper English grammar is not even good enough to explain things literally. If you consider this offensive, then know this: I too am offended that someone who has been in this community so long is still underestimating us this much by thinking he can trick us into believing this is philosophy or sociology. You haven't even bothered to properly reply to me. I raised three separate objections and you attempted to squirm out of the lesser of them. Yes you read that right: attempted.

Suppose I grant you that free thought leads to culture. Formally A -> B. There is no way to derive that ~A -> ~B. Hence your insistence that 'lack of free thought inhibits cultural development' is unfounded. Note that I don't even have to accept the original premise. You never bothered to consider the difference between players and characters.
The 'blank part' you are referring to, when the 'artist gets on stage'... how do you wish to consider this important and at the same time ridicule the legend speakers and archives. Calling them less important when they are actually a prominent example of free speech. Alas they don't fit your 'requirements' because they are not free enough by 'default'. Oh, you're definitely not trying to degrade MDA, you're trying to degrade the whole MD population by dismissing valid arguments based upon your subjective judgements; your authority. Proving by intimidation that MD is not free, oh irony!

And looking at your words strictly... other people have tried to look at the hidden meaning and you were unhappy with them too. In any case, debates are about words. If you are imprecise, it is your fault that your premises are rejected or a different meaning is added to them. If you paid any attention to the more philosophical debates held in MD, a part of the culture you consider to be stagnating, you would have known this.

[Jubaris]

[quote name='Kafuuka' timestamp='1286566680' post='69934']
The 'blank part' you are referring to, when the 'artist gets on stage'... how do you wish to consider this important and at the same time ridicule the legend speakers and archives. Calling them less important when they are actually a prominent example of free speech. Alas they don't fit your 'requirements' because they are not free enough by 'default'. Oh, you're definitely not trying to degrade MDA, you're trying to degrade the whole MD population by dismissing valid arguments based upon your subjective judgements; your authority. Proving by intimidation that MD is not free, oh irony!
[/quote]

first, about this. I explained what I meant when referring to MDA lands, I didn't call it as unimportant.
I said clearly there that MDA has a clear function - all kinds of supporting guilds, recording events, writing poems...advertisers were there, artisans... and such. Archivists are still there, Legend Speakers most active.
MDA is limited in sense that it doesn't have it's own identity, but is a land that does projects for the whole community, and that is said from my perspective - when talking about culture-making, in separate communities rather than on the level of whole realm (in that case MD applies functionalism, where everyone has a role to achieve for the "greater good". I think that's how it worked before, even when the kings came whole community voted for candidates of each land, only shortly after that Mur started to make separate entities as lands, at least that's how it looks like.)


[b]I'm saying that MD loses it's space for creation of cultures/civilizations (maybe you didn't understand what was I pointing at when saying cultures) when it creates official representatives for each land.[/b]
I don't know how to simplify it more for you to understand.
That is the essence of the topic.

you said this "The 'fixed' has been contested repeatedly already. The 'only' is also contestable, eg. for Necrovion I can think of six characters that have a 'cultural advantage'. I have yet to witness any of the kings try to dominate the interpretation market, with the emphasis on attempting."
of course that the Kings can dominate the realization of interpretations when they want to, since their positions do just that - doing a realization of an interpretation.
Maybe a King doesn't want to do that, but the position allows him/her to. And that is by default of the game.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Rhaegar Targaryen

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1286612223' post='69964']
first, about this. I explained what I meant when referring to MDA lands, I didn't call it as unimportant.
I said clearly there that MDA has a clear function - all kinds of supporting guilds, recording events, writing poems...advertisers were there, artisans... and such. Archivists are still there, Legend Speakers most active.
MDA is limited in sense that it doesn't have it's own identity, but is a land that does projects for the whole community, and that is said from my perspective - when talking about culture-making, in separate communities rather than on the level of whole realm[/quote]
You propose that on the meta (player) level MDA is subservient to the other lands. You then take a leap of faith and assign the same status to the character level. Thirdly you claim a country cannot have a cultural identity if it is (willingly) bound by rules made by a larger power. ie you imply that none of the European countries have a cultural identity of their own.

[quote]
I'm saying that MD loses it's space for creation of cultures/civilizations when it creates official representatives for each land.
I don't know how to simplify it more for you to understand.
That is the essence of the topic.
[/quote]
It does not need to be simpler, but I did request to be precise and consistent in your definitions. Your interchanging use of culture, creativity and free thought refers to the art interpretation of culture, while the association with civilizations and unification is a completely different concept.
If you wish to claim that 'the designation of a leader to a group of people who are unified in purpose' is one less opportunity to create 'a group of people that are unified in purpose'... then my question is, why make a forum topic out of a truism?
On the other hand, if you wish to claim that said designation implies less opportunity to create works of art...

[quote]
you said this "The 'fixed' has been contested repeatedly already. The 'only' is also contestable, eg. for Necrovion I can think of six characters that have a 'cultural advantage'. I have yet to witness any of the kings try to dominate the interpretation market, with the emphasis on attempting."
of course that the Kings can dominate the realization of interpretations when they want to, since their positions do just that - doing a realization of an interpretation.
Maybe a King doesn't want to do that, but the position allows him/her to. And that is by default of the game.
[/quote]
The burden of proof is upon you Rhaegar. Words such as 'default', even if repeated three times, do not have any argumentative value. Kings are not granted access to subliminal message tools or who knows what kind of tools that would make anyone believe their theories. If their interpretations are opposite to Murs or the people of their lands, then they will not stay in power for long. They certainly have advantages. People will be [b]less[/b] sceptic about a king's interpretation of his land. To claim that people will not be sceptic to even the most ridiculous of ideas, is once again underestimating MD. eg. I'm totally unimpressed by that one sociology course you followed even though I took none.

[BFH]

[quote name='Fyrd Argentus' timestamp='1286389837' post='69774']
That MD newspaper could be a great way to hook people in... if it were happening. Kyphis says another group is handling
that besides Legend Speakers. BFH was pushing it for awhile. What is the status of that effort?
[/quote]
It is been worked, but will take time since it's a lot of work.

SOON we will see another MDNP edition.

[quote name="Rhaegar Targaryen"]
Newpapers are a sign of culture, if it is used in game via clickables, PMs or such, and if characters do it for in
game reasons and not those out of character ones, it's bad when privileges come - they getting newspaper like
special bar next to the announcement log one, getting ability to send everyone emails... that leads the project out of MD.
When a project gets helped by Mur in any way, it loses it's "soul" of an RP event.
[/quote]

The MDNP email subscription is voluntary. Nobody force you to do that, so don't complain about that.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My opinion:

MagicDuel gives equal opportunities to everyone (DIFFERENT TO OTHER GAMES). I think kings helps us instead of
what you are pointing out. Kings sponsor our quests (letting our creativity and imagination raise). Their work is to keep their lands
united, and in my opinion, they are doing it very well. Personally I had seen them helping many players (including me).

Apart from mainlands we have other lands without kings. So if anyone want to create civilizations or cultures those lands are good options.
There people's creativity and imagination are not "limited" by kings.

BFH