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Sociology Of Md?


Jubaris

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A number of topics were made how MD isn’t fun anymore, “doesn’t have its magic in Magic Duel”, etc. I guess most of you hated/disliked/was annoyed with them, cause “all they did were complaining” or such… Well I’m giving one of my analysis of MD (so you better hear me out or I’ll start slapping! :D), from one of the numerous perspectives. I would also like to hear the community’s opinions about it after this is read (rather than the usual spitting).

It’s not that I am trying to achieve anything concrete with this, but few thoughts fell into my mind which I saw interesting, and wanted to give them complete form, and possibly share it with you. Pointing out the real fun (at least to me) of the game, no matter the new features or such which are sometimes interesting and fun luxuries.

Don’t know how much of you had Sociology in your classes, but I recently had a lesson about Culture and Personality, which just confirmed my opinion and gave it stabile form. Among many things, it says that a person, after accepting necessary amount of culture and social norms, beliefs (general principals), knowledge, really becomes a person then when he/she is emotionally motivated on creating new values, that only on this way the person becomes creatively integrated into the collective life of the community, avoiding traps of becoming “stripped-personality individual” (I translated the quote roughly cause my English vocabulary is still weak, I’m sure you get the point), becoming authentic and effective.

I’ll get to that, which I think it is a main issue in MD as soon as I mention one more thing.

The lesson also mentioned Conformists, they are in essence the people who don’t make anything new, “do not make waves” nor troubles, ones who are pleasing everyone, they follow the already established form of culture (in MD almost nonexistent, in my opinion) without individuality, who have their own opinions sometimes but in public opportunities do not agree with them . Those people can also be productive if they become active in the culture they represent, if they follow those norms in their creations (is it music, sports, science, philosophy) and with that they become integral part of the culture’s future.
With that I pointed out that every person can have (SHOULD have) its function in the realm of MD (the original is based for RL -well… societies in general- , but MD is world in small. Most of alternative worlds are supposed to be that way anyway).

The main problem I see in MD is that it suffocates those creative personalities at this period, in my opinion cause of many authorities that were made, not authorities that fought their way via influence and such, but by fixed conditions (all kinds of moderators, kings… all powers assigned by Mur to inspire some kind of automatism that went on totally wrong way).

In my belief and according to the lesson as well, for person to reach that stadium of creation, it needs to have freedom (space to act… and such).

Easiest (but not the only one!) example for me to show to you, are the kings. Leaders of communities, if any, should be made by their very own communities , step by step, whatever transition it consists of, even by force if enough power in one faction to do so, just like reality shows us, that is the whole point of a culture developed by the very people that are participating in that game and those that are supposed to be non affected by outer influences (creators of the game), that they make events happen on their own, and I think that’s what Mur originally wanted as well (please assure me that I am wrong here if so, in that case I have one extra illusion about MD, and in that case I’m packing my bags). With that fixed authorities made, you have few options – be dependent and follow a king’s (lack of) vision, with one naturally having some sort of limits and such (even that would be ok, but I don’t see any action on macro level in MD at all), or be an outcast, part of no-man’s-land doing absolutely nothing of interest regarding culture/art (which is the whole point of alternative worlds and books… of course this doesn’t affect the other group of people who are here to solve bunch of player made sudokus and such which I don’t care about on the level of game population, I mean I’m not trying to degrade them here, they’re cool, but I’m talking about the “RPG” in MD here at the moment)

Fixed authorities make limitations to our thoughts, and remove the freedom of ideas.
That’s why I look at Mur’s rush decisions on kicking the balance in its bottom by assigning authorities (especially the kings, since they are not meant to be objective) as… I have to go easy now so I don’t provoke “men in black”, and I’ll just say wrong – in my opinion.

Now, look the period before such authorities, (of course game evolved in features since then, now it has much more possibilities in draining your mind but like I said that all that isn’t important but the very essence.) you had communities and people such as Khalazdad, Nelya with Blackthorn (number of you can hate him if they’d like, but I spoke with the dude, and he’s a genius) and tons of others everywhere.

Tell me now, where do you see, not a creator, but a creator that managed to swim in this ocean of “order”?

Nowhere.

You have authorities with conformists on their throne not willing to let go of the privileges they have, and you’ll have status quo unless in a period of year or two Mur decides to change something like it happened with the RPCs (same psychology for them like now with current authorities, tho I wasn’t that much part of that RPC system to know or speak about it’s flaws, from this point it looks like it was “lesser evil” or even productive, but others can fill the space here.)

Even further, every criticism isn’t treated critically but with level of hate for disturbing the status quo, most even considered as personal attacks rather than questions about the system.



:)

I'm interested to see the level of community's awareness... what are your comments and opinions?
I'm not nearly done, but I would prefer to continue with answering some questions, or hearing out someone else with an already established opinion about the subject rather than me making dozens of paragraphs with at the end, nobody reading it.

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So let me summarize:

You are saying all the authority placed on certain people within MD has created a status quo, which allows no creative outburst, or external influx from new players...and you blame this off the accumulation of power?(So you are basically saying we should abolish that, even if you never said it directly.)

You post is a bit hard to read, so I'm just asking to clarify here.

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I differ significantly on the following:

You find fault with the system, I find fault with the individual.

For instance, you say "Fixed authorities make limitations to our thoughts, and remove the freedom of ideas."

The thing with authority is that each person chooses to follow their leader; no one forces anyone to become a citizen, and in truth there isn't anything physically limiting any one of us. Kings can't imprison non-citizens, and besides harassment (which is against the rules anyways), they shouldn't be able to significantly affect the game experience of any person not directly a part of their land.

Instead of being limited by Kings and rulers, we are limiting ourselves by following them in the first place.

My creativity, my writing, is not limited in any way. If Yrhtilian (my King) were to tell me to stop writing, I wouldn't give a moments thought to leaving my current alliance. Perhaps by pointing the finger at those in power, you're trying to get around the truth: you, and no one else, is responsible for your creativity and productivity. Own that.

Awi

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My sense is that you are describing a period when the lands were first taking shape, and are now concerned that this entire evolution has stagnated due to the lack of vision/drive of the kings. If that were all there was to the entire culture of MD, then I would agree with your analysis.

In fact there are many threads or sub-sections of society/culture running through the realm which may not be visible to most players not involved in them.

The most blatant example is the polarization of MP5's that resulted from the demolishing of the GGG. The younger MP5's are a cooperative group that identify with each other in their animosity towards the older "veterans" that hold arbitrary authority and unreachable power. I wrote the "Lay of the GGG" trying to capture this.

I don't know much about the strange goings-on in the Savelite church - that must be a real story. Each alliance must have some core activities going on. There has been some friction in the MB alliances. The brief take-over of the Archivists was surreal.

The LHO's form a cultural group. The younger MP6's and candidates have some common ground. The people coding clickies have some common ground. The people working on avys have some common ground. The people into creative writing have some common ground. The people into tea and cake have some common ground.

People have a sense of the death of the realm because they are not (no longer?) tied in with SOMETHING that is happening to engage their interest. We need not just a plethera of things going on, we also need to worry about the mechanisms by which young players are drawn into these cultural sub-sections of the game.

That MD newspaper could be a great way to hook people in... if it were happening. Kyphis says another group is handling that besides Legend Speakers. BFH was pushing it for awhile. What is the status of that effort?

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[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1286388692' post='69772']
So let me summarize:

You are saying all the authority placed on certain people within MD has created a status quo, which allows no creative outburst, or external influx from new players...and you blame this off the accumulation of power?(So you are basically saying we should abolish that, even if you never said it directly.)

You post is a bit hard to read, so I'm just asking to clarify here.
[/quote]

one of the points... yes. On macro level you have no happenings, not to mention no conflicts, why? Cause all kings need to maintain healthy relations with each other, why? Cause a king profits the most when he has good relations with every other king, with that state person in the example has "help" when something is needed to be asked out of Mur, when someone needs to be sanctioned or such, lots of gains in differ of being in a conflict, where you have absolutely nothing to gain.

Most of things were developed during wars, in RL. Meaning if you have a competition, you progress much faster. Where's the competition here??? I see no independent community here, with it's own macro-social interactions.

But yes, pre-set authority given to certain people created status quo, and for example "supreme ruler" authority given to kings limits pretty much everyone else there. But in essence every power that can be abused given to player is great balance shifting (and rules in MD are so easy to exploit and to interpret in your own way) in the community. It's not about people being "evil, rude" or such, but it's about overpowering abilities given by the almighty that do not represent "the reality".

There's a difference when you build up your influence, become stronger, gain some WPs and such than getting everything served on a plate.
Game that has handicap on most of the population, isn't that encouraging. It's like having a one party system, only way to change it if you have most of population shouting they want changes, and what fool would go against the party?? And you all know that in totalitarian regimes (according to that lesson I mentioned too :D) there's no space for creativity. It would be fun and challenging if something like that was made with basic player tools, but this state is pre-set, which is a mentioned handicap.

[quote name='awiiya' timestamp='1286388996' post='69773']
I differ significantly on the following:

You find fault with the system, I find fault with the individual.

For instance, you say "Fixed authorities make limitations to our thoughts, and remove the freedom of ideas."

The thing with authority is that each person chooses to follow their leader; no one forces anyone to become a citizen, and in truth there isn't anything physically limiting any one of us. Kings can't imprison non-citizens, and besides harassment (which is against the rules anyways), they shouldn't be able to significantly affect the game experience of any person not directly a part of their land.

Instead of being limited by Kings and rulers, we are limiting ourselves by following them in the first place.

My creativity, my writing, is not limited in any way. If Yrhtilian (my King) were to tell me to stop writing, I wouldn't give a moments thought to leaving my current alliance. Perhaps by pointing the finger at those in power, you're trying to get around the truth: you, and no one else, is responsible for your creativity and productivity. Own that.

Awi
[/quote]

I already kinda answered this when responding to Shadowseeker. But to add, mainlands have a pre-set advantages in resources, WPs, influence when lobbying for anything... Not to mention every mainland is interesting in nature, while on the other side you have neutrality which some like me don't like.

Question: why should Yrthilian be able to change your Golemusian homeland? what gives him the right to erase your homeland?

It wouldn't affect your writing cause your writing, I assume, has nothing to do with Golemus (or you can easily compensate it with something else), while for some people, lands give much greater inspiration, but if you are limited and dependent of another person in that land (every mainland), it crushes inspiration (again for some...), I for one don't like to follow anybody else's thoughts that blindly, not unless that someone really impressed me during period of time and inspired total faith in decisions, and even that, I like to keep "Rhaegar's touch" of individuality somewhere there.
Golemus (example) is not Yrthilian, Golemus is Player A, Player B...

Again, I repeat, It's different when Yrthilian (I'll continue using him as an example) fights his way to power with normal means, and claims ownership of Golemus at point when that just announces something that was de facto already known, but still in that case he becomes ruler of "Yrthilian's version of Golemus" which points out that others can have their own interpretations as well and are free to try to apply them, in difference with current state where this is now pre-set, where Yrthilian represents Golemus and everybody else can tag along or go away. (unless he manages to turn the whole realm writing a petition that he must leave... which is kinda retarded-balance-shifting rule in my opinion, and in any case it's very hard to turn whole realm against you. Those kind of rules make a popularity contest out of MD.)


@Fyrd

LHOs fall into that category of privileged (even tho less damaging ones, they're still in that category of privileged, with Grido being the main hot-shot there :)).

Newpapers are a sign of culture, if it is used in game via clickables, PMs or such, and if characters do it for in game reasons and not those out of character ones, it's bad when privileges come - they getting newspaper like special bar next to the announcement log one, getting ability to send everyone emails... that leads the project out of MD.
When a project gets helped by Mur in any way, it loses it's "soul" of an RP event.

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[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1286385441' post='69768']
The main problem I see in MD is that it suffocates those creative personalities at this period, in my opinion cause of many authorities that were made, not authorities that fought their way via influence and such, but by fixed conditions (all kinds of moderators, kings… all powers assigned by Mur to inspire some kind of automatism that went on totally wrong way).
[/quote]
If you look back into the history of MD by about 1 year, ie before Kings where instituted, you will see Golemus with a King who happened to be yrthilian; Necrovion with a Queen who happened to be Peace, the person who appointed Jester; Loreroot with an emerging King at the end of the Councils reign; and MB with an informal Military leader group that included Lifeline, the current King.

During the Necrovion/Golemus war, When Grido refused to participate, yrthilian ex-communicated him. It was this exercise of power that caused the formalizing of the Kings position. This sort of event had occurred in the past, as well.

The point I am making is that before "Mur appointed" the kings, they where already there, doing what they where doing. The only difference is that now they can do it faster (a good thing) and they have a treasury (ALSO a good thing).

And in addition to that, I get a fair bit done with the other neutral alliances, most recently I am helping Curiose and TGW to set up their Story Night Project. The only input any kings have is the sponsoring of Wishpoints if any stories are considered worthy, and from the rarity of WP's being awarded on story nights in the past, it is probable that they won't need to do that very often (unless we get some spectacular writers who have hidden until now). Almost all of the sponsoring for prizes comes from the Nuetral lands.

So... not really getting why you are blaming the "creator instated" authorities '~'
I noticed in your post that you said that was the easiest example of what you where thinking of, but it might be a lot better if you gave, y'know, MORE than one example?


(PS I have been awake for maybe 30 minutes, so may not be articulating myself properly. If anyone doesn't understand what my post is meant to be saying, please PM me to ask >.>)

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[quote name='Kyphis the Bard' timestamp='1286401139' post='69781']
If you look back into the history of MD by about 1 year, ie before Kings where instituted, you will see Golemus with a King who happened to be yrthilian; Necrovion with a Queen who happened to be Peace, the person who appointed Jester; Loreroot with an emerging King at the end of the Councils reign; and MB with an informal Military leader group that included Lifeline, the current King.


During the Necrovion/Golemus war, When Grido refused to participate, yrthilian ex-communicated him. It was this exercise of power that caused the formalizing of the Kings position. This sort of event had occurred in the past, as well.

The point I am making is that before "Mur appointed" the kings, they where already there, doing what they where doing. The only difference is that now they can do it faster (a good thing) and they have a treasury (ALSO a good thing).
[/quote]

MB military leader group that you mentioned is an example of "getting power" via that transition, and influence, and not privileges by Mur (as far as I know)

yes Yrthilian was king before the kingships came, so was Khalazdad and then Peace. (kingships only finalized it for other lands - Loreroot and Marind Bell)

But for Necrovion story is a bit different... in background of MD you have the shades that reside in Necrovion, they are powerful beings and they chose Khalazdad to represent them in human world, which he did... Necrovion is not that open for self-interpretation as other lands are.

[quote]
And in addition to that, I get a fair bit done with the other neutral alliances, most recently I am helping Curiose and TGW to set up their Story Night Project. The only input any kings have is the sponsoring of Wishpoints if any stories are considered worthy, and from the rarity of WP's being awarded on story nights in the past, it is probable that they won't need to do that very often (unless we get some spectacular writers who have hidden until now). Almost all of the sponsoring for prizes comes from the Nuetral lands.

So... not really getting why you are blaming the "creator instated" authorities '~'
I noticed in your post that you said that was the easiest example of what you where thinking of, but it might be a lot better if you gave, y'know, MORE than one example?


(PS I have been awake for maybe 30 minutes, so may not be articulating myself properly. If anyone doesn't understand what my post is meant to be saying, please PM me to ask >.>)
[/quote]


you want more than one example of people having privileges, with them not being kings?

-Akasha, Grido, Zleiphneir, Chewett (all those who have jail/teleport to GoE spell, or any moderating spell) ... number of those in hidden

all are, except Zleiphneir, part of a mainland, which doesn't make them that much objective, they add influence (perhaps not purposely) to their land, and they certainly shift the balance with those privileges.
Notice lots of LHOs being Golemusian. If not for Grido/Burns influence there, do you think all would come to golemus out of those LHOs?

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Z doesn't have a teleport spell to goe or jail if I recall, and all others on your list would have it even if he wasn't in a mainland..you forget, the majority decides to pick a land anyways.


I say, your thesis is wrong, it isn't about the status quo being the problem...it's about enthusiasm. If you truly wished to be a king, you'd try to overthrow etc.

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Just to clear it up, I have no special abilities other than acousticremains - and that isnt an admin spell. Send to GoE is debateable whether it is an admin spell or not - I would say not personally. I have no jail spell or such things.

People being creative always get support for what they do - take the seeds as a good example. Show initiative, consistancy and determination and support comes - just by your creativity.

Kings/queens were all voted in, so I don't understand the point there?

Your sociological argument about freedom is fine on a thesis level, but in reality the ideal you describe exists nowhere - just as ideals don't. Mur granting powers is just the same as a creative person requesting powers as Blackthorn (I use the example because you have) did. His creativity is great, but fundamentally it is Mur's game, and he decides what is good for it, like it or not.

There is a reason you can't just do whatever, maybe looking for that reason and working with it would achieve more.

Z

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Our influence! Pah!

Of course it's our goddamn influence, we have an ally! I mean, does it really surprise you that an ally with 2 out of 3 leaders and the recruiter being LHO holds up pretty much all the virtues Grido searches in LHO?

Yeah, it is our influence you see there, but definitely not the kind of influence we need ingame tools for. We arranged with Yrth, and built things around our vision, and all it took was a few messages back and forth, basically saying 'I want to do that', and 'Okay, just keep this and that in mind when you're at it'.

Because kings don't limit creativity, even when there's something personal between you. They just want you to not lose your roots, in case you need them.

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OK I think I have watched this post enough in order to input my opinion. Your worried about the macro level meaning wars on and about land. However in order for there to be a macro there has to be organization and this is where the kings come in to sort of lead in the right direction. As for the kings being passive its true there is always some tension between GG and Necro. There is also a pact between Necro and Loreroot. MB and Loreroot have a uneasy pact. Though I think GG and Loreroot are at an uneasy peace though i am unsure 100% about Loreroot and MB affairs there a bit more complex. Either way tension is building and it will just take a few attacks on the wrong people in the wrong places to set all these old rivalries and tensions ablaze. Just somebody has to dig up the hatchet first then everything crumbles.

As for creativity there is a lot of it everywhere just you don't see it and I don't anymore just because of my changing play habits. If you want to see creativity show up at the root of the matter inn or bob when it is busy. Those are the two hot spots it seems. Likely your in MB park or GOS. I am assuming you are like me and just sort of scanning through the chat then moving on.

So yes kings are a necessary evil. LHO's are a necessity and they arn't given many influence powers.

If you still find magic duel boring after that. I suggest that you try get your own message out there. Make your own news paper copy and paste it and send it to people you pass by pample had a rather successful party made up that way. Anyways it my birthday in about 2 hours (October 7th 1:23 AM Central time) and I need to sleep so ill just leave you with that.

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  • Root Admin

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1286401800' post='69782']
-Akasha, Grido, Zleiphneir, Chewett (all those who have jail/teleport to GoE spell, or any moderating spell)
[/quote]

Akasha and grido have GOE and Jail, i have GOE and Z as he said only has acoustic remains.

Wow i can teleport you, the only times iv used said spell was during HC when some people had obvious advantage and to make it a little more intresting and if some noob decided to come and annoy me while i was doing something (hence my spell name). The ability to jail is so rarely used it can hardly be called a privilage. When someone someone called <something>feet arrives, grido or another person with ban will come and ban them. Said member could be an alt of mur and he would still be banned for offensive (funny) playernames. Its not that they can actually choose who they want to use it on. Most of the time when some kind of ban go ahead Mur does it. The people with jail merely do the simple obvious ones.

I dont really get your point Rheagar, that everyone should have the same powers? Is that really wise giving IAB the ban spell and such? :D (ok a little dramatic but you get my point)

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[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1286430709' post='69794']
I dont really get your point Rheagar
[/quote]
I agree, a concise summary (or explanation about what it is you're trying to prove) would be nice for us people (me) who have melted brains.

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I've read the topic last night and I though it was plain bs. I closed the window thinking I am tired and I am easily pissed when I am sleepy.

I've read it again this morning (after drinking a laarge mug with coffee). I still think it's plain bs.

This is a smart-wannabe topic but in essence is just a mean topic meant to attack the powers that "hinder" Princ from getting powers for himself, it's a topic made to rant (in a subtle way) about the issue with Firs who took Savelites from Princ and now gave it to someone else (or was it Marvolo the one who gave the alliance to Jazira? - I don't know what the mechanism behind this was but it doesn't really matter :D) AND the issue about that guild thingy that started "the war".

GG has most of the LHOs and most of the players with "administrative spells"? Then why aren't the other lands capable enough to attract such players? LHOs are mostly GG people? If you do a simple math you'll see that at one point there were 3 people from GG (Grido included) and about 3 or even 4 from Loreroot. So get your facts straight.

And what about me? I have both sendtogazebo and LHO's spells but I'm not a GG-er, nor a queen, nor Grido. In what category do I fall in?

So yeah...it's a useless topic.

Edited by dst
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[quote name='dst' timestamp='1286435731' post='69800']


And what about me? I have both sendtogazebo and LHO's spells but I'm not a GG-er, nor a queen, [u]nor Grido[/u]. In what category do I fall in?


[/quote]
Grido's (hopefully-soon-to-be) wife? :D
http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/7330-help-grido-marry-dst/page__view__findpost__p__62276__hl__%2Bgrido+%2Bmarry__fromsearch__1

On topic:
... nah, I really can't think of anything to say here.

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damn it... I just woke up, my eyes don't see a thing.

examples I mentioned, Akasha, Chewett, Z (as an example cause of Tengri) and such have certain privileges, yes even forum mods at points, it all gives some kind of power - influential or some other one.

@Shadowseeker

there for sure are fixed authorities, and they might not be that damaging directly, you're right, it certainly does influence me more in a psychology way in a sense that when I have someone above me that I see limitation of movement.... (but no matter how little one authority moves the slider of balance, he/she still moves the slider. - that's another thesis unrelated to my main post, since I concentrated on the thing I consider a main issue - supremeness of a king that naturally limits others. If you're a supreme that means all others are below. You can pick another land, considering that every mainland has its supreme ruler, and that leaves us to Tribunal, but Mur said he has plans for it as well, so the idea of Tribunal remaining as the last "free" land will run out eventually.)

Even so, those fixed authorities are placed, such as kings were meant to change the system of MD in a way, but after... almost a year now, I see no happenings on a macro level between kingdoms, nothing going on in their kingdoms.
In reality, every kingdom made it's flag, crest, myths, songs all those things that make a culture, but where do you see that here? That's why I think the divine intervention of Mur for kings wasn't justified.
Where's the culture of a land that gives it's people identity and form in differ to others?

@Z

of course it's Mur's game, and I treat it that way, if he says "ok I want the game to look like this and that, and I'm going there... etc." it's cool, it's totally his right. I'm just asking for some clarifications on the nature of the realm. I think that it was supposed to be an alternative world, where people come and develop their characters in whatever path they want to go, research, culture and such, with as less outer influence as possible, and I'm saying that few things disturb the nature of independent development of a "culture".

@Burns

I'm didn't say you guys are abusers. I said that controlling the LHOs and having it's majority in Golemus, gives you much higher influential power than it would be without that. That is a clear sign of privilege to me.
I pointed it out as an example, I'm not saying now "tear down the LHOs!" no, they are the productive members of the community, I pointed it out how little innocent thing can be a major privilege.


@Chew

Grido, at least before Rendril came as far as I know, was valued (in the circle of people I knew) as a closest thing to a moderator. I'm not saying Grido now abuses the abilities, but the very fact that he has them, gives at least a level of mental power over others.



I didn't address everyone directly, so if some questions are still unanswered or I did it blurry, please state them again



[b]edit for Dst coming in a minute... didn't see her post[/b]

of course it has relations to the whole issue there was with Loreroot, but not cause I want to replace Firsanthalas as king how you imagined in your paranoid dreams, but cause I experienced the whole "supreme ruler" difference in the world, and I saw a mistake in the functioning of a game with an example I experienced.

There's isn't a balance when you can only retaliate with sticks and harsh language, and the holy "vote that he is evil" option. When you have a king that is the only representative of a land, and you can be either in his interpretation of land's subject or get da hell out. What gives anyone the right to mark "Golemus" "Lorerootian" "Marind Bell" "Necrovion" citizen (I'm pointing out an example of why it cannot work, I'm not trying to do anything about Loreroot here as DST gently implied, I just want to move on, but I don't want to run in circles and adapt to being below just to somebody else)


and about your place in the world, it's a story of its own :D
the rest you mentioned can be answered via my responces to others.

Edited by Rhaegar Targaryen
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[quote name='dst' timestamp='1286435731' post='69800']
This is a smart-wannabe topic but in essence is just a mean topic meant to attack the powers that "hinder" Princ from getting powers for himself, it's a topic made to rant (in a subtle way) about the issue with Firs who took Savelites from Princ and now gave it to someone else (or was it Marvolo the one who gave the alliance to Jazira? - I don't know what the mechanism behind this was but it doesn't really matter since Princ hates Marv also :D) AND the issue about that guild thingy that started "the war".
[/quote]

Under normal circumstances I would completely ignore this post, however I feel that correcting you is a good idea before anyone decides that you are speaking the truth. First of all, after Marvolo left, there was a dormant account left in the Savelite's alliance in case Firsanthalas chose to revive the alliance, in this case Jazira expressed her wishes to revive it, and thus she became the leader of it for now- and she is currently working to gain members at this time.

Now keep in mind that this is not an excuse for anyone to go on a tangent, I am merely making things clear.

[b][i]Edit: Fixing a sentence.[/i][/b]

Edited by Amoran Kalamanira Kol
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[quote]I just want to move on, but I don't want to run in circles and adapt to being below just to somebody else)
[/quote]


If you don't want to be "below" then there are 2 options: you can be beneath or equal. Both mean you get power. Ergo:I was right: you want the power and since you can't get it (at least for now) you choose to throw mud into the others.



[quote]of course it has relations to the whole issue there was with Loreroot, but not cause I want to replace Firsanthalas as king how you imagined in your paranoid dreams, but cause I experienced the whole "supreme ruler" difference in the world, and I saw a mistake in the functioning of a game with an example I experienced.[/quote]

You experienced a punishment for your actions. The only difference is that it came from Firs and not Mur. If Mur would have been the one applying the punishment you would have said nothing since he's (hopefully) the only authority in MD that you recognize.


ps:I would appreciate it if you would stop commenting about my dreams (and anything that is related to outside world or about things that I have not mentioned in my posts - aka stop assuming things about me) since you have no idea what I think (except the things I write on the forum)


@Amoran: so where am I wrong in my statement? I said either Firs or Marvolo gave the ally to Jazira. Since I don't know which one I posted both assumptions. So please enlighten me: where was I wrong.

Edited by dst
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[quote name='dst' timestamp='1286439838' post='69805']
If you don't want to be "below" then there are 2 options: you can be beneath or equal. Both mean you get power. Ergo:I was right: you want the power and since you can't get it (at least for now) you choose to throw mud into the others.
[/quote]

since you busted my motives to live in an equal-chanced society, you automatically make me wrong, yes? :D I love your logic.
I do not seek dominion over others.

[quote]

You experienced a punishment for your actions. The only difference is that it came from Firs and not Mur. If Mur would have been the one applying the punishment you would have said nothing since he's (hopefully) the only authority in MD that you recognize.

[/quote]

So I was punished by another player for interfering with his politics with a method that is punishing all those who violate the actual game rules, like robbery or such...
It would be ok if it was part of an RP event, but it wasn't, and the process was done via privileged fixed authority abilities.

Yes, Mur is the only authority that I respect here, cause it is his game. He is making the rules, so he can say kings can be overpowering that way if he wants, and I'll respect that and respectively leave.
It functions like that at the moment, but if the essence was making an independent alternative world, I think forcing Kings was a wrong step, and since Mur probably won't comment here I would like to see what community thinks about this as well. (tho if an anonymous posting system isn't introduced, I highly doubt someone will speak about this, since in 99% cases, the king of the following person would treat it as a personal attack, like I hope Lifeline doesn't picture this as, cause it isn't :)).
And if you all agree that the game from Mur's point of perspective should be (which I like very much if it is so) independent world, say it so. That's how I picture the nature of all this... I would like Mur to re-assure me if not.
(you know... a game... new world, testing the ability of people to start a new culture, new ideas, art...)

About it relating to culture and creativity... ideally a king should be open with any projects, gatherings, ideas, for people to do them themselves, but humans being humans, King will force his own interpretation of the land. Even if he doesn't suffocate the others, the whole process of asking someone "can I draw this, can I write that" when referring to a land, isn't that boosting.
Just picture a famous artist in reality that makes art projects related to his nation/people and that he has to ask the president about the permission to make a work everytime he wants to do it. That wouldn't affect the artist at all?

I expected that number of strong/independent individuals in game such as yourselves (shadow, Z, Chewett, Pip... etc.) to respond to this, since I don't think you care about someone becoming offended cause of your opinions.
That is a nice start.

Edited by Rhaegar Targaryen
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[quote name='dst' timestamp='1286439838' post='69805']
@Amoran: so where am I wrong in my statement? I said either Firs or Marvolo gave the ally to Jazira. Since I don't know which one I posted both assumptions. So please enlighten me: where was I wrong.
[/quote]

You were wrong in assuming that the alliance was immediately given to Jazira after Marvolo left it, and so I felt it right to mention that before it came to Jazira's possession, the alliance was dormant. You were also wrong to even bring the issue of the Savelites up, that is not what this topic is about, nor is the issue of the Savelites a personal matter any longer. Marvolo has left and moved on, and Rhaegar has left.

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@Amoran: did I stated ANYWHERE that the alliance was given RIGHT AWAY to jazira? I merely stated that it was given away but I had no idea by whom since both Firs and Marvolo were involved at one point. You say it was dormant? You may be right (I don't have proof of it to be otherwise) BUT there was someone who activated it!(that person is the one I am talking about).

As for this:

[quote]You were also wrong to even bring the issue of the Savelites up, that is not what this topic is about, nor is the issue of the Savelites a personal matter any longer. Marvolo has left and moved on, and Rhaegar has left.[/quote]

seems like Princ himself contradicts you :D

[quote]of course it has relations to the whole issue there was with Loreroot[/quote]

Edited by dst
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I still don't understand what you are saying here Rhaegar. By this: "[i]since you busted my motives to live in an equal-chanced society[/i]" are you suggesting we turn MD into a communist society? I mean what is it you are suggesting here?

Everyone in MD DOES have an equal chance to achieve anything they want to if they work for it. These set authority powers you talk about didn't enter the game like that, they all worked hard and were rewarded for efforts they made, and more often than not have been supported by the community when they achieved reward - and as I said before, Kings were voted in they didnt just get handed the poition on a plate, everyone had the right to stand. Will people who do things that turn the game in a way the game maker doesn't want get rewarded - unlikely. Should that be a surprise? - no.

I'd also appreciate if when you talk about Tengri, you say Tengri, because T and Z are two totally independent characters - and there are already enough rumours and mess about me going around without adding to that (yes, Im looking at you guys, you know who you are). I get that you refer to me the player, but please, if you could.
Tengri is a different situation to kings or LHO, totally different. Seeing as I never mentionned who I was and you never knew T existed - it gave me no mental authority over anyone. It is also one of those situations where the game maker wanted to implement something and used a player based on his views of people in game and what they have done - so again not just handed on a plate to any old person without them having to have done things to be given such a position. Any authority anyone gives to me now, that they wouldnt have given to me before, is either sheer paranoia that I can do things I in fact can't, or it's because of things I may know - and anyone in game can be given that authority if they do their research etc.

I mean, I have to agree with dst. It does seem like this is another attack of jealousy. Maybe I'm just not understanding, or maybe you arn't putting it across well enough. Either way, I still don't see how any of the points being made are valid.

Z

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[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1286465766' post='69838']
I still don't understand what you are saying here Rhaegar. By this: "[i]since you busted my motives to live in an equal-chanced society[/i]" are you suggesting we turn MD into a communist society? I mean what is it you are suggesting here?
[/quote]

difference is clear (I knew someone would mention communism if I said equal, so I added "chanced"), not equal-class but equal-chanced society, in sense that one doesn't have advantages of Mur's privileges against another. This is generalizing, which I don't like to do, you can't apply one rule on everything, considering these are relative terms, and I responded to DST's usual hate mail, so I would like it better if we stay on something concrete.




[quote]
Everyone in MD DOES have an equal chance to achieve anything they want to if they work for it. These set authority powers you talk about didn't enter the game like that, they all worked hard and were rewarded for efforts they made, and more often than not have been supported by the community when they achieved reward - and as I said before, Kings were voted in they didnt just get handed the poition on a plate, everyone had the right to stand. Will people who do things that turn the game in a way the game maker doesn't want get rewarded - unlikely. Should that be a surprise? - no.
[/quote]

how can you say that?! and how can you support a popularity contest?! it's ridiculous.

how would you call "candidate and vote" reward-based competition?
I'll just mention this, without pointing out names, but just look at the votes of kingships, its candidates, and check those lower-ranked, how much votes they received, and point finger in your forehead asking yourself: what da hell? (in sense that there were some ridiculous candidacies that gained should-not-be-overlooked number of votes) and reason of that is to see the pointlessness of having votes for something like that with simple "yes or no" answers.
it's serving on a plate to me at least.

the authority of a king is permanent and was forced into the game, and it is a feature that influences others in very great way.

[quote]
I'd also appreciate if when you talk about Tengri, you say Tengri, because T and Z are two totally independent characters - and there are already enough rumours and mess about me going around without adding to that (yes, Im looking at you guys, you know who you are). I get that you refer to me the player, but please, if you could.
Tengri is a different situation to kings or LHO, totally different. Seeing as I never mentionned who I was and you never knew T existed - it gave me no mental authority over anyone. It is also one of those situations where the game maker wanted to implement something and used a player based on his views of people in game and what they have done - so again not just handed on a plate to any old person without them having to have done things to be given such a position. Any authority anyone gives to me now, that they wouldnt have given to me before, is either sheer paranoia that I can do things I in fact can't, or it's because of things I may know - and anyone in game can be given that authority if they do their research etc.
[/quote]

when I mentioned Tengri in that way, I mentioned accounts that have/had authority (I'm not sure on all the abilities Tengri had), that doesn't necessarily mean that they used their authority in a damaging way (there was a question to name the other authorities).
My apologizes for identifying Zleiphneir and Tengri as one and the same, but I don't know your name and Zleiphneir has two meanings, person and a player, and I referred Zleiphneir as a person there. I won't do it again.

[quote]
I mean, I have to agree with dst. It does seem like this is another attack of jealousy. Maybe I'm just not understanding, or maybe you arn't putting it across well enough. Either way, I still don't see how any of the points being made are valid.

Z
[/quote]

another attack of jealousy? pfff believe her biased spitting-offs if you want about my motives, my facts stand, that there are authorities in a game, the difference is that number of you don't see them as damaging as I see.
Saying that implementing of authorities doesn't change a thing or something similar as that is simply ignorant. There are many perspectives on such things, and I'm just pointing one of them... it was meant to be a discussion on how the system works, how does it affect others and number of different opinions about the system.

everything has it's light and bad side, and all the time in MD I keep running on people that refuse to accept the fact that nothing can be perfectly done.

It's kind of a shock to me how you all just accept such drastic changes lightheartedly, I mean fixed authorities ain't that small thing, and yet you all talk about it like it's perfectly normal...



[b]I'll make a summarization in an hour or two, need to take care of some things at home, have little time to sit down properly[/b]

Edited by Rhaegar Targaryen
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Sorry, but you keep rambling on about fixed authorities, and kings in one sentence.

Kings CAN be overthrown..nobody has bothered to do so yet, but it is very possible.

So far we only saw a line of consentual passing of generations, but this doesn't have to be. Staged in the proper way, with the proper support of land people (which are mainly with the king though, that is the idea of it) anyone could become king.

As an example..you have the support of CoE, GotR and a few other vets from other lands, and decide to overthrow Firs..you'd get it most likely, if you had the support of the land.

When you tried to rebel, did you have it? No.

Did it fail? Yes.

To me it very much sounds like a grudge born from the fact that you were exiled.....

And if you looked, you'd realise a ruler is nothing without the base of supporters.

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We arnt saying it isnt a big change we just see it relevent as a necessity. RL has society I dont see why MD has to be all that different. Also working hard for votes. Alot of people campained and had page long essay format papers exsplaining there values. They also where alliance leaders (I think all of them where) so they actually worked for years ensuring and impoving there ability. Yes it may be a popularity contest but they are popular for a reason. I have come to terms with my leaving the race in the last days which is essentially losing why cant you come to terms with yours.

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