Wishshop Requirements

[Burns]

Based on the latest announcement, i think that the spent WP requirements should be increased when/if WP for days are actually implemented. I know as well as all of you that it might be ages away, but solutions never come it too early.

Basically, i think that every requirement already in place should be increased by 3-4, probably in the very high cases up to 6 spent WP, plus some of the tougher spells, like mirror and deadarmy, and the more secret locations, like oak tower, sage's temple and berserker's charge, should go a little deeper in the shop, probably like 1-2 spent WP.

As it is, the shop progress is rather slow, and takes a lot of work. That should stay that way, else people get stuff a little too fast and easy, imo, that spoils them.

Also: Stuff like K docs, Location subtitles and silvertongue should get a limit of at least 8 spent, drachorn mutation like 13-14 spent. I'm very much against giving people such stuff as freebies just for logging in.

[Kyphis the Bard]

For the most part, I agree, but why make Silvertongue such a hard spell to get? It only has three effects, none of which make it more useful than even Ghost except in extreme cases o.O

[Burns]

Because, when magic gets more common, silvertongue will be much more useful. Right now, the best you can with silvertongue is make people laugh, because the people with good combat spells will also pwn you without magics, but when battle magics get used more frequently amongst newbies, it's insanely helpful to break their spells for some time. And pretty annoying for them.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1288557628' post='71225']
Based on the latest announcement, i think that the spent WP requirements should be increased when/if WP for days are actually implemented. I know as well as all of you that it might be ages away, but solutions never come it too early.
[/quote]
As one of the few people who was openly against free wps, I have to be venomous and say it is too late for solutions now. The decision is made and no matter how brilliant your countermeasures, abuse/trouble will ensue.
eg xp reset has no spent point requirement afaik. Either you increase it a lot, or you're basically giving people who like harassing mp3s more tools to do so.

[Kamisha]

Im more worried about mp4's using the free wishpoints on xp reset. They could really end up over powered in there mp class.

[Mya Celestia]

[color="#8B0000"][font="Palatino Linotype"]I've read the announcement several times. It does say that artwork is being asked for, but it doesn't say that wps are going to be specifically given for those days. Yes, it does appear so, but it's an artwork announcement and not an official wp=days announcement. The announcement could have been made to gauge our reaction to the amount of days.

It also does not cover alts, but again it's not a wp announcement.

My questions are how many players actually make it beyond 80 days, will alts be given wps as well (I hope not), and will the wps be retroactive?[/font][/color]

[Chewett]

[quote name='Mya Celestia' timestamp='1288575897' post='71242']
[color="#8B0000"][font="Palatino Linotype"]I've read the announcement several times. It does say that artwork is being asked for, but it doesn't say that wps are going to be specifically given for those days. Yes, it does appear so, but it's an artwork announcement and not an official wp=days announcement. The announcement could have been made to gauge our reaction to the amount of days.

It also does not cover alts, but again it's not a wp announcement.

My questions are how many players actually make it beyond 80 days, will alts be given wps as well (I hope not), and will the wps be retroactive?[/font][/color]
[/quote]

I would have thought its pretty obvious that its very likely to have been. if specific days are asked for then its kinda pretty obvious that its going to be on those days. Mur does like to fool with us, but if art is being asked for, its pretty indicative. And if we have said debate early enough, we might be able to change something for the better, no?

Anyways, forbidding alts is rather intresting since i know a lot of people who are "alts" yet are not. From what iv heard some alliances will end up very bad because of their interesting policy of account sitting.You could end up awarding only a few wishpoints to the "first" or

I would say it would be pretty hard programatically to work out if someone is a true alt or not. Perhaps the "logs" or something will come out and we will again go back to spotting alts? I personally dont think alts getting it will unbalance it too much, and if people purposely do this then im sure there will be some punishment.

I agree on the noobs that stay at lower levels. It will power them up but they already had these means from quests.

I also agree that certain things should probably be moved back into the shop a bit, but will look at them later and decide what i think.

[Asterdai]

sooo many WP, cant believe there are so many different age steps that are giving WP out!

i think less should be given out due to age,

what happens to the people who have already reached the certain age requirements, will they get these "free" WP too?

[Udgard]

I see no reason why these shouldn't be retroactive. It's supposed to be a reward for loyalty, not a way to punish those who has been in the game for long. Still, I can't agree more with how it seems that there's so much WP to be given. I'm suddenly going to get 6 WP (would've been on the way to 8th if I had logged in everyday), that's almost as much as the WP I currently have! O_o

[dst]

Of course they should be retro-active! That's the whole purpose of it.

Burns, you're right. But maybe some restrictions can be put for those achievements. After all, a difference between mp3s, mp4s and mp5s should be made. Currently the only difference is the xp loss at mp5. This needs to be changed. And maybe start with those achievements.
Let me give an example to explain better:you're eligible for 3 WPs but you're mp3. You should NOT be able to get those 3. You can get 1 or maybe 3. You move to mp4, you get the 3rd one. And so on. Of course mp5s should not be restricted at all.

Also, I hope that Wish Shop will get new features soon. Otherwise we'll have too many WPs and nothing to buy....ok..nothing too useful to buy

[phantasm]

i am for the wish points for days. It is a great incentive for people to play more, and a great reward for those of us who have been playing for YEARS.

As far as alts go I agree it's very difficult to determine the proper action for such. Even Phantasm is not my "first" as some may know. I have some characters that are MUCH older that are never played anymore. The only way I could see this being effective is to give only to the account with the MOST active age. I'm not sure how well that would be able to be programmed, but I could see that as being a good solution.

Honestly, I don't think there is a cure for alts getting WP. The question is will it have that big of an impact? You can't give away WP to your main so therefore you can't really help your main by it, with few exceptions (like creature mutations). That's how I see it anyway. Sure the alts might get a few WPs, but it won't do the main much good unless someone can point out the more dramatic flaws to me.

[dst]

MrAlyon and his items are the best example of why alts should not get WPs. Quite simple.

[Kamisha]

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1288620133' post='71265']
MrAlyon and his items are the best example of why alts should not get WPs. Quite simple.
[/quote]

Well lets think about this. If an alt gets a wishpoint and makes an item then trades it to another alt that falls into alt abuse as a single account is benefited and the other is not.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Kamisha' timestamp='1288630298' post='71273']
Well lets think about this. If an alt gets a wishpoint and makes an item then trades it to another alt that falls into alt abuse as a single account is benefited and the other is not.
[/quote]
Except that the official statement is that it is not alt abuse. Counter-intuitive as that may be.

[Kamisha]

[quote name='Kafuuka' timestamp='1288633064' post='71274']
Except that the official statement is that it is not alt abuse. Counter-intuitive as that may be.
[/quote]
Hold that I took a look through the rules this one stuck out:

Uncommon things that you CAN do

You can have multiple accounts, to try out story, to experience new ways of play etc ..., however if you are detected that you are using them just to help one of your main accounts , all of them including the main will get banned.

Also this one did as well:

Main things that can get you banned:

Exchanging WishPoints between you. WP should be rewarded only for good reasons.


Even if the second on is direct exchange of wish points if you look at the uncommon things you can do section. It states as an exception that if one is benefited then all of them are subject to a ban. Using a wish point from a separate account then sending that morph creature or what ever you have to the other account is benefiting the other one.

The only reason that such may not be used is because the IP check may not be correct causing the benefit of the dought which has been only recently over turned by mur in the announcements after he tweaked it a bit more.

[dst]

I know what the official statement is. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

Things will be abused and will be abused badly. I think we all have better things to do then checking who is abusing and how much. Not to mention that we have no way of checking alts (unless we bug Mur every single time and I bet he will not be happy about it ).

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Kamisha' timestamp='1288639213' post='71279']
Even if the second on is direct exchange of wish points if you look at the uncommon things you can do section. It states as an exception that if one is benefited then all of them are subject to a ban. Using a wish point from a separate account then sending that morph creature or what ever you have to the other account is benefiting the other one.
[/quote]
Like dst I will not say that the official statement makes sense or that I like it, but I'll refer to the most recent proclamation on this issue, for those that missed it: http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/7531-alt-abuse/page__view__findpost__p__64958

[Yoshi]

Question: Would it be alt abuse if say, someone gets the colourless joker on an alt, then transfers it to his main, but then transfers some coinage to the alt as payment? It would be the same as buying from anyone...

[Udgard]

Just for information, if this ever comes through ([i]when [/i]is probably more appropriate..), I'm gonna be much, much stricter on item creation, although I cannot say for the other 2 with the item creation interface. In fact, I'm wondering if we can put item creation on Wish Shop, so instead of taking WPs directly, you should buy a ticket (non transferrable) from the wishshop, which will then be consumed on item creation. This way we can regulate the item creation by adjusting the depth of the ticket in the shop. Doesn't exactly prune all abuses, but maybe will regulate things better than none at all.

[Kamisha]

Unfourchenently the problem with that is if somebody where to say buy the ticket and bring it to you and suggests a completely ridiculous item you would have little choice to refuse to make something that doesn't follow magic duel.

For example lets say I want a intergalactic laser cannon and I have gone to the depth to use the wish point to get a item ticket. Then I come to you and say I want this cannon (which obviously somewhat defeats magic duels theme). Now there are two ways this can play out.

First: Is you have to make the weapon because I have a ticket to do so. Since it is integrated you have less control over saying yes and no to things. Its just the basic fact of life if something is incorporated it is more hard wired then logical decision.

Second: You refuse the idea as it does not fit MD thus I am now left with a useless ticket with me kicking my self for buying it and complaining to you and mur as well as anybody else along the road that I deserve a refunded ticket. It really wont matter to the person weather there is a tag or now waring of this in there mind it still is unfair in there mind.

Also you cant really ban them as they are not breaking the rules. Sure you can rate them down but that's about it. Also people are going to up rise against this due to some items being made in the past being easier. There are still some people have verbally expressed there problems with the MR indecednt and will be sure to raise this quite violently if this idea passes.

[Udgard]

Well, not really. Tickets only mean that they [i]can[/i]try to have an item made. No tickets mean no possibility to have the item made. It's basically a Mark of the Crafters revisited again (on another thought, maybe I should start using those again..). And if there is already an explanation on the wish item, and the person still buys the ticket before confirming if the item he wanted would be creatable would be creatable - well it's his/her own risk. Think of the ticket as a currency for buying the service of crafting - even if you have the money to pay a craftsman doesn't mean he will make something for you (oh, and no, the ticket won't go to me, it should be consumed upon usage).

Making items has never been easy, at least not with me. The purpose of what I proposed is to keep them at the same difficulty level as it is right now, or else it would not be fair to people who made items when WPs were a much more hard to obtain commodity.

[Chewett]

you will still get people who buy a ticket and want an item, which you wont make, to which they will go and complain to every person possible. I think the current method should be used BUT add it to the WP logs.

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Yoshi' timestamp='1288642712' post='71285']
Question: Would it be alt abuse if say, someone gets the colourless joker on an alt, then transfers it to his main, but then transfers some coinage to the alt as payment? It would be the same as buying from anyone...
[/quote]
Transfering creatures to yourself is abuse, hence why it is blocked. However, transfering coins is not, so long as they are not generated for free (which I doubt can be done now, anyway >.> since voting doesn't count as for free). This means that strictly speaking, you can't pay yourself, no matter your intent.

[Fyrd Argentus]

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1288601231' post='71257']
Of course they should be retro-active! That's the whole purpose of it.

Burns, you're right. But maybe some restrictions can be put for those achievements. After all, a difference between mp3s, mp4s and mp5s should be made. Currently the only difference is the xp loss at mp5. This needs to be changed. And maybe start with those achievements.
Let me give an example to explain better:you're eligible for 3 WPs but you're mp3. You should NOT be able to get those 3. You can get 1 or maybe 3. You move to mp4, you get the 3rd one. And so on. Of course mp5s should not be restricted at all.

Also, I hope that Wish Shop will get new features soon. Otherwise we'll have too many WPs and nothing to buy....ok..nothing too useful to buy
[/quote]

While I am all for more magic in "Magic"Duel, making this retroactive would be horrible for the already unbalanced system.

I agree that these points should also be linked to MP advancement, as we need more incentives to move up.

Why should having multiple accounts with spells be alt abuse? Abuse occurs only when accounts interact. If we're really worried about this, restrict these special wishpoints to a shorter list of user-type spells, like the MP6 list. Creating these new spells would pad out the wp shop nicely....

[dst]

What do you mean by [quote]making this retroactive would be horrible for the already unbalanced system[/quote] ?
If this will not be retroactive then it loses its purpose!
This is supposed to be a way to reward for the loyal (that's not really the correct word but stil..) players and stimulate the new ones. After almost 3 years of playing MD you can bet that I will NOT find an incentive in getting some WPs the same way new players will get them. Or better said: the same time.