Renavoid Memorial Service

[phantasm]

i see, so when you leave (if MD is still around after that point), we should forget about your contributions and just move on? We should simply forget everything about what created MD and instead create falsities? Say summoned army for example. New players shouldn't know that at one time it was called Summon Actraiser's Army? Or that Actraiser had a main role in helping to create the archives?

To me you are saying "Who cares what everyone did, here it is, use it and ignore everything else" For being the leader of an alliance that is supposed to be doing research on the past of principles, magic, and other things of the realm, you are pretty closed minded.

[Shadowseeker]

That's not meant in that way, Akasha has a pretty refreshing and as many call it undiplomatic approach.

It would be clearer to say that some events in the AL happened in a certain manner not the way Mur envisioned them, because for a while Renavoid was also writing it.



Nevertheless, I do think that even if not everyone agrees with doing these kind of Memorials, each can make his/her own opinion, this is about a guild starting to do what a guild should do, and if they decide to, let them?

I won't mind someone reading a summary of what I did in MD if I leave, I could imagine it as one single line myself.



Of course, there will always be haggling as to who is deemed worthy or not, but I would actually give him a chance and wait for more selections to see who is chosen- if after 10 (or any number of speeches exceeding 3) NONE was acceptable to a player, speak up? There never can be everyone happy, and the Caretakers are also just trying to do their job. I'm sure they will also take requests, depending on whom we part with.

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

I'd say its more...Ren has been memorialised before. The space between then and now is filled with this PAL he did - which as Akasha says has no bearing on any valid MD stuff but is just a made up story. Hence it detracts from the reality of the accurate things one might find, and hailing him once again after such a thing is almost to hail the thing itself considering the previous memorial in sted.

I love Renavoid, but I totally get what Akasha is saying here.

Z

[Sephirah Caelum]

Let us get this straight. You mean besides the Ancient Lore, is the AL a myth as well, at least the part Ren's wrote (and this part is ... ?!) ? And that was only exposed after our Memorial Service? So the AL, the part that should be one of the most reliable sources of information about MD, where I should base my questions and discover "secrets" is false?

It means that if none of this had happened I would continue to appreciate what is written and think about them and how them happened, while the fossils and otheres that know the facts better remain quiet, silent and dumb. Saying for some questions I ask that the answer is secret while others questions are politely ignored?

And while the quest was going on because no one argued the action was wrong act, and remained silent until now? Why did not try to correct the mistake while it was in process? Are you on a pedestal so high that it can not bend and steer the others that are in the wrong way?

[Pipstickz]

It was known to myself well before this event that Ren's segment of the AL was not necessarily fact. Then again, I've never read the AL start to finish, and I don't plan to. Even then, what thoughts and information I do have could well exceed yours, Sephirah. Does that really matter? Very little. As Mur has said, the question is often more important than the answer.

Are you bowed down so low that you can't look anyone in the face?

[Chewett]

[quote name='Sephirah Caelum' timestamp='1295908373' post='77990']
Let us get this straight. You mean besides the Ancient Lore, is the AL a myth as well, at least the part Ren's wrote (and this part is ... ?!) ? And that was only exposed after our Memorial Service? So the AL, the part that should be one of the most reliable sources of information about MD, where I should base my questions and discover "secrets" is false?It means that if none of this had happened I would continue to appreciate what is written and think about them and how them happened, while the fossils and otheres that know the facts better remain quiet, silent and dumb. Saying for some questions I ask that the answer is secret while others questions are politely ignored?And while the quest was going on because no one argued the action was wrong act, and remained silent until now? Why did not try to correct the mistake while it was in process? Are you on a pedestal so high that it can not bend and steer the others that are in the wrong way?
[/quote]

If you didnt know, Mur has said many many times that some of the AL is complete Rubbish, And im sure you also know that he has said storymode was made up by someone who knew less about MD's lore than Mur would have liked. The Continual focus is on things that have happened now, The recent lore that happened to us, Not the things that were made up before MD.

And you have lost me, What "Quest" are you refereing to?

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

[quote name='Sephirah Caelum' timestamp='1295908373' post='77990']
It means that if none of this had happened I would continue to appreciate what is written and think about them and how them happened, while the fossils and otheres that know the facts better remain quiet, silent and dumb. Saying for some questions I ask that the answer is secret while others questions are politely ignored?
[/quote]

I don't think anyone remains quiet silent and dumb. Quite clearly not or you would have nothing to be arguing with right now and nobody would be answering you. Also, what Chewett said.

[quote name='Sephirah Caelum' timestamp='1295908373' post='77990']
And while the quest was going on because no one argued the action was wrong act, and remained silent until now? Why did not try to correct the mistake while it was in process?
[/quote]

Actually some of us did comment on that fact, just not on the forum and not making a big fuss about it - what would you rather? Being forced out of doing something fun you enjoy just because it isn't factually accurate?

Z

[Sephirah Caelum]

I've read the forum, Announcements and AL, so the information probably passed by and I did not read. Anyone cares to tell where, except in this topic, it is written that a part of AL is rubbish?

@ Chewett: "quest" = PAL

@ Zleiphneir:

[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1295942305' post='77996']
I don't think anyone remains quiet silent and dumb. Quite clearly not or you would have nothing to be arguing with right now and nobody would be answering you. Also, what Chewett said. [/quote]

[u]To me[/u], the arguing came very late.



[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1295942305' post='77996']Actually some of us did comment on that fact, just not on the forum and not making a big fuss about it - what would you rather? Being forced out of doing something fun you enjoy just because it isn't factually accurate?[/quote]

Yes.

[Firsanthalas]

I think I'm going to toss a grenade here and maybe also get back on track, then promptly deviate.

I really don't see any harm in having memorials for people. If people want to remember them and the things they have done for people and how they had an impact on others, whats the harm? Just leave the AL stuff out and keep it to more personal experiences. Afterall, I'd hate to think that a person's value in MD is summed up by their inclusion/exclusion and relativity to the AL.
That being said, I find it continually frustrating at the insistence of people to harp on ad nauseum about past MD characters, while current characters seem to go un-noticed.
I personally feel that celebrating someone while they are around is much better than waiting until they have departed.

By the by, what is the definition/requirement to be considered ancient? I believe that there were at least two names omitted from the list that was cited earlier (and that is just going by the start date of the most 'junior' member of said group)

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

[quote name='Sephirah Caelum' timestamp='1295944617' post='77998']
[u]To me[/u], the arguing came very late.


Yes.
[/quote]

There is no point spoiling a basic bit of enjoyment imo, not to mention the uproar that comes with that. It is only worth making something a serious issue if it is having a detrimental effect on the basis of things. The memorial in this instance would appear to have that effect based on the logic I stated previously, the story itself didnt reach such a level imo as it was first and foremost a quest based story, and that was it. Im all for memorials in general.

Z

[ed: and just to add an offtopicish thought as an example of something: If we know in MD that places you can go can actually be entered, then why do we act as if this isn't the case with certain things and then get surprised when someone says what we already should know? Some cannot enter the oak tower in Loreroot, but it can be entered, how odd it would be to see people roleplaying being inside it when they are not]

Edited January 25, 2011 by (Zl-eye-f)-nea

[phantasm]

"I really don't see any harm in having memorials for people. If people want to remember them and the things they have done for people and how they had an impact on others, whats the harm? Just leave the AL stuff out and keep it to more personal experiences. Afterall, I'd hate to think that a person's value in MD is summed up by their inclusion/exclusion and relativity to the AL."

Those that were there for the memorial can attest that very little was being said about the AL and the events. Most of it was exactly what you said. Talking about the person and their effects on others of us around here. It's like telling a story, but not about great slaying of the drag. Instead. its about all the other things a person did that affected who we are and we will be. I honesty don't see the harm in doing it more then once, or for that matter even the person being memorialized while "alive". Heck I love to tell a good story and so do many others. We could do it every day for different people.....in a perfect world of game time

We are all those people. We all affect others in more ways then imaginable in a 10-fold. Some affected many more of us and in greater ways then others. Some were extraordinary and effected us all. Both are "legends". Age doesn't matter, size, shape, and alignment either. Age just helps us to narrow it down a little better. As well as greater effect on the mass of MD. People have to take something and find something flawed and run with it like a kid with a sparkler.

We aren't carving this into the landscape of MD. We are gathering a group of people together for a common goal. This was the first test of something us Caretaker's have been wanting to do more of. With Renavoid departing for now, it was good timing of who to do first. Is he not well known? Is he not had a great affect on many of us? OK. A trial run that turned out badly I must say. Hopefully the next one will go a bit smoother. Some I must say that this one defiantly had some snags on our end. The short amount of time between the roleplay and the memorial defiantly caused some issues. Sunday was a day off work for me that I could get some vets i talked to together, wish I could have contacted more in time. I could have explained a little better in the initial post, and been a bit more clear. Though probably even if the original would have been clearer I doubt it would have changed much.

I hope this explains things a bit better.

Edited January 26, 2011 by phantasm

[Metal Bunny]

Arguing? The arguing about what Ren did wrong with the AL happened at least 18 months ago, if not more. Because it was so long ago, the arguing actually stopped at one point.
In a sense, the majority of the debate happened a /really/ long time ago.

Also, in reference to the part of 'asking the question is just as important as the answer'; well, you never asked. In fact, no one ever asked me anything about the AL. Now maybe you did ask someone else, but there is also the possibility that that person never asked as well and simply assumed it was truth.
Don't ever assume anything, not in here, not in real life.

Besides that, I warned the caretakers, in this very topic itself, that you should be careful with fact and fiction, and the fact that Ren has died at least 3 times now.
Not only that, you guys have another ancient person who refuses to die, like me, and is beholden to truth and fact, dst, so I figured you /knew what you were doing/.

Now, I wasn't there at the memorial, as I was busy with school, but I believe that no one actually mentioned Ren's 'glorious moments' of using his spaceship, or heroically going into the house of liquid dust.
A memorial, one that you guys specified with being short and to the point, interspersed with moments of silence out of respect, should not have been about these things.
The most you should've done was that he worked as the master archivist and helped with the AL, and left it at that, leaving out any information regarding the actual state and nature of those AL passages at that.
I hope you did that.

If you didn't, then perhaps I am partially to blame.
If you didn't, then next time, I won't be so subtle and tell you what you really shouldn't put into your memorial and what you should.
If you didn't, and thusly admit to doing a bad job, according to my opinion, I will do that which every self righteous b*st*rd does in a liberal democracy with free speech;
[b]I will interfere.[/b]

I didn't want to interfere, because you are a guild and you are responsible for what you do. You are the ones who are supposed to figure this out yourself, the ones to scrutinize each legend, each detail, and separate fact from fiction and distil inspiration and admiration and then carve their memory into stone.

You are supposed to remain independent. I want to keep it that way. This is the reason why I didn't want to push you so very hard; that previous post of mine?
That's me being nice and supportive. (my spawn will grow up so messed up)

And trust me, if you are not going to do a good job, then everyone is going to want to interfere, much like some are doing now.


So, all you need to do, in order for me to shut up and stay out of your business as I am supposed to, is to tell us what happened at the memorial, and that's it. If everything went fine and dandy, I got no issue with it.

*edit*
I just now read the last post before me, that makes things better. So yeah, keep up the good job and the rest of you, shush.


As for the ancient part. I think it's safe to assume that the threshold is something very subjective. I only just started using the term, simply because I am twice as old, if not more, as some, if not most, 'veterans'. Seriously, what even defines a veteran? 1 year of active days? I have more than 3.
Maybe ancient is more than 3 years. I dunno, maybe you are ancient when you look at Zleiphneir, who is regarded as an old goat and veteran by many, and yet still see him as a newbie .

Edited January 26, 2011 by Metal Bunny

[Chewett]

I would say that "Vet" is come to mean anyone who has made a mark on MD, and has spent a significant time in it, There are some people just at a year i might call a "Vet" who are pretty new, Wheras there are several older people who i wouldnt really refere to as vets as they come and go, not really playing much. "Ancient" to me would be to talk about the real old people like MB, the ones who have been here a long long time.

Choose who you want to remember, Make memorials, But i agree with MB in the fact it needs to be based on their great achievements and not bring up some of the more controversial things. Perhaps by asking some of the public who they think should have a memorial.

Keeping facts are ofc a must, There are many who will "Remember" people, But many people who "remember" will have never met said person, having heard stories from more people who have never met them.

Good Luck, Do what you think But PLEASE dont make memorials based on incorrect information and such

[phantasm]

speaking of posting the memorial. It would have been done some days ago, but Chewett felt that my locked post for it in the CT section needed to be poofed or watever the hell you did with it.. Now my forum shows as there is an unread topic on it, but it isn't there. Would be be kind enough to put it back where it belongs so that I can. I spoke to DST prior to making the two posts if that is the reason you felt the need to mess with it. It was meant for the official stuff while the one in the General Forum was for comments. Soon as it's back and the CT forum is fixed, I will post the complete unedited log, including the ludicrous bit at the end with seighart and curios.

[Chewett]

[quote name='phantasm' timestamp='1296090425' post='78063']
speaking of posting the memorial. It would have been done some days ago, but Chewett felt that my locked post for it in the CT section needed to be poofed or watever the hell you did with it.. Now my forum shows as there is an unread topic on it, but it isn't there. Would be be kind enough to put it back where it belongs so that I can. I spoke to DST prior to making the two posts if that is the reason you felt the need to mess with it. It was meant for the official stuff while the one in the General Forum was for comments. Soon as it's back and the CT forum is fixed, I will post the complete unedited log, including the ludicrous bit at the end with seighart and curios.
[/quote]

Im not entirely sure why you are angry with me, Probably because you didnt like what i wrote, Meh.

No clue what topic you are talking about, i havent dont anything with that area recently. You do relise there are "other" mods on the forum that can do exactly the same as me? I have no recollection of doing something in that area. So please dont start accusing me of things that i havent done, you just look foolish in doing so, because there are others with my powers.

If you had wanted to know what has happened, you could have contacted me or any of the mods to look into it. Pm normally is best.

But as usual, Just accuse anyone you like here with no proof whatsoever. Its always my fault

[Curiose]

If the caretakers really wanted to do their job, shouldn't they have set up a memorial for -every- veteran, or important, or well known, or whatever player that has crossed MD?

I mean... Sure, there are some that have dropped off like flies, but what about Granos? Lifeline? Why did they not get a memorial? As far as I know, Lifeline surely wanted to be written about. Lifeline was, after all, King of Marind Bell. Does that merit him less than Renavoid? Or Granos, one of the best evil villains of MD [from what I read regarding forum posts], surely he must have shed things to light and partaken in important things as well.

What gives a single player the right, and self importance of being catered to after death, while some are ignored and therefore, left to the grave?

To me this shows favoritism based on the chain of who knows who. According to others, he has had not one, but two memorials? Again, what merits grant him this other than being M.A. and writing some of the AL?

There is also the fact that there are some people who do not wish to be remembered. But even so, how do you know unless they come up to you and state: I do not want a memorial. If someone even has to ASK about getting a memorial, again, to me that seems more like an ego boost than a considerate event.
*Edit:

The two players listed above were the 2 whom were of.. at least some importance, that left MD in my time. I do not know of any other player, and therefore do not use them to argue my point.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Curiose

[Udgard]

[quote name='Curiose' timestamp='1296112434' post='78076']
If the caretakers really wanted to do their job, shouldn't they have set up a memorial for -every- veteran, or important, or well known, or whatever player that has crossed MD?

I mean... Sure, there are some that have dropped off like flies, but what about Granos? Lifeline? Why did they not get a memorial? As far as I know, Lifeline surely wanted to be written about. Lifeline was, after all, King of Marind Bell. Does that merit him less than Renavoid? Or Granos, one of the best evil villains of MD [from what I read regarding forum posts], surely he must have shed things to light and partaken in important things as well.

What gives a single player the right, and self importance of being catered to after death, while some are ignored and therefore, left to the grave?

To me this shows favoritism based on the chain of who knows who. According to others, he has had not one, but two memorials? Again, what merits grant him this other than being M.A. and writing some of the AL?

There is also the fact that there are some people who do not wish to be remembered. But even so, how do you know unless they come up to you and state: I do not want a memorial. If someone even has to ASK about getting a memorial, again, to me that seems more like an ego boost than a considerate event.
*Edit:

The two players listed above were the 2 whom were of.. at least some importance, that left MD in my time. I do not know of any other player, and therefore do not use them to argue my point.
[/quote]
Maybe they haven't got the chance to do more? I mean, how many memorials have they done anyways? Surely not many enough to show that they only do so to people they are "favoriting"?
[quote name='phantasm' timestamp='1295519646' post='77757']
So;
1: Who is going to speak and why will they speak?
2: What aspects of Renavoid are you planning on commemorating? As I cannot imagine you to be able to do the whole lot.
3: Are you absolutely certain about the location? What is your motivation for that place, besides being one of the locations where he 'died'.
4: Are you planning on doing this for other legends and is it perhaps not better to get this done in a permanent fashion, par example a memorial hall of fame? And would this not be a better solution in the case of Renavoid suddenly coming back to live.. again?

1. A few of the speakers I hope to be there, and talked to already, will be yrth, dst and firs. I thought the value of kings/queens in this place would be well accepted. I know Mya will be there, and hopefully inno, and many other people who knew or didn't know Ren. With such short timing and me just coming out of the Tribunal a few days ago I only had time to talk to a few.
2. I plan on most aspects to be talked about by speakers who knew him well. This is not just to commemorate his great works, but the person who he was. As MB says, lore is a very difficult thing to deal with in MD. It is often better to remember the personality of friendships and foes. That's as important as the works he did. The affect he had upon others as a person. Those truths are just as valuable. I know a little of his deeds, of course many of us know his works with the AL, and much more I hope to find out as others at this ceremony. I don't pretend to be all knowing in any degree or fashion. I am a noob just like the rest of us in our own ways.
3. The location is a bit more of a temporary spot then a permanent one. Both his "deaths" were at the House, and yes while it is a very ominous place full of sorrow filled pasts, it is still a place of importance. Me, Sephi, and other CTs have wanted to make a "graveyard" so to speak in the Tribunal for some time. Obviously with such turmoil in the Tribunal right now, and my limited amount of acess to its clickies and places, it is quite difficult.
4. [b]Yes, we would like to have a memorial for all legends of old, and new ones too as they arise.[/b] The great hall, where it would look like statue heads would be, obviously would be the prime place for such things, though as to its design only Mur knows. At some point I would like to see it filled with not only such large names at Khal and Ren, but with smaller ones that some newer people don't even know who played such rolls. How many young people now know of Bootes or Blackthorn, or Phrog. I have the memorials from Awiiya's collection and plan to use them to incorparate it all at soem point. (would right more but have to go to work)
[/quote]


[quote name='phantasm' timestamp='1295873100' post='77949']
so what are you saying Akasha, that no veteran, legend or not, should be remembered? Did Khalazdad or Bootes ever do wrong? We are all only human, and I would like to think we are preserving his personality and how he helped others, as well as his works in the AL. As far as the whole spaceship goes, of course that was a little over the top, and therefore not really detailed much in stories now.

Do you mean to say that everything Renavoid did in the AL was wrong? Or just the end, so therefore all the things he did before that are automatically scrapped? Maybe I am confused, but he was Master Archivist for a LONG time for a reason wasn't he? You talk about questions, information, and finding answers. Yet how can the youth attempt to ask questions if they know nothing of the mistakes and triumphs of those of the past? This isn't "LORE" like you always go nuts about every time someone tries to do something involving the past. This is the honest discussion of who Renavoid was to many of us. He DID play a major part in the AL for a long time. He DID impact alot of people in both the positive and negative way. He WAS/IS one of the oldest veterans that stuck around for a long time, no matter how many times he "died". He DID write, with the help of others, songs that were a positive impact on MD as a whole.

[b]The CT's plan on doing more memorials like the one for Renavoid[/b]. They aren't to "dissillusion" the past, but to let us, and future players, see what kind of people played MD before them. When Khalazdad or Bootes, or Phrog, or a Johns come up is this going to be a reoccurring moment of your, to "scrap the past and move on with the future"? I know for many facts that it isn't the way it happens in society. Half the reasons any society has and kind of good left in it, is from heros, legends, books, and stories of the past. We are not "making up ancient lore" like Hey Tribunal was built by aliens who liked to play Checkers. We gathered around and told our reflections on a REAL character in MD who affected MANY MANY people.
[/quote]

[Mya Celestia]

[color="#8B0000"][font="Palatino Linotype"]Let's give them time to do their job. Other memorials may be planned. Let's not tear them apart for their choice, when more may be on the way. [/font][/color]

[Curiose]

I was not trying to seem argumentative. I was more or less inquiring as to why they are choosing now, of all times, to do memorials.

Certainly there would have been better suited times of which would have given them a great deal of better reaction than as they are doing so now, right?

[phantasm]

memorial is a locked post in the Caretaker section. If any comments or questions past then please direct to here

[Asterdai]

it was interesting to read what Akasha wrote

[Amoran Kalamanira Kol]

I have only one thing to say regarding your memorial. Thank you, Phantasm, for at least having the nerve and the gall to appreciate something someone did in the game.

[Blackthorn]

[quote name='awiiya' timestamp='1295451904' post='77686']
"Very rarely"? Let me just say - Renavoid has left MD a few times. He thought he was leaving when he originally crashed his ship into the House of Liquid Dust, and declared himself dead, and then alive again when he came back. He's not alone: Wodin declared himself dead as have BigC, Khalazdad, Lifeline, BlackThorn and a whole host of people. Veterans fall out of the game often, and nearly just as often they come back.

Awi
[/quote]


I never declared myself Dead. I only left.
As for Renavoid...well what can be said? He was my friend. My hope is that he does not rest in peace, but rather returns often to haunt us all.

[quote name='phantasm' timestamp='1295463466' post='77702']
Considering I think I was an MP4 at the time he left, when he crashed the ship, [color="#cccccc"](Page 454 [2009-02-27 23:42:34 - The Traveler][/color]), *which also happened at the House of Liquid Dust* I don't see where the timing is involved to pay respect for all the work he did. Period. Most every one of the names you have said have been gone for a LONG time, or if they do come back its few and far between (as that character of course). The rp events with Inno have happened recently and therefore this is done as a whole. It would be different if someone left and came back every other week, and then I would agree with you.

Does the fact they are gone make their deeds any less valuable? If there was a memorial done for blackthorn and his additions to MD would it make his deeds any less valued, even though he has been gone for a long time? I am surprised by your reaction chewy, I would think you would give more credibility for the event then that. That last sentence was almost aggressive if i had to say.

*edit* oh sorry 2 years ago
[/quote]

Again, I am not dead... I am very flattered, but not dead....only in prison Might as well be dead...but I am not.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Blackthorn