Extortion and Coercion

[Seigheart]

Earlier today I had asked Grido if he would revive me. He said that he would, but there would be a price associated with the revival.

The price was 35 GC. Why?

Because the "party" that had killed me, has threatened to kill Grido if he revived me for any less.

Now, I believe that this is extortion and extortion is illegal.

[quote[b]]Extortion[/b] (also called [b]blackmail[/b], [b]shakedown[/b], [b]outwresting[/b], and [b]exaction[/b]) is a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime"]criminal offence[/url] which occurs when a person [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful"]unlawfully[/url] obtains either money, property or services from a person(s), entity, or institution, through [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercion"]coercion[/url].[/quote]


This is exactly what is happening here.

Grido is being coerced into extorting me.

[quote][b]Coercion[/b] ([img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Loudspeaker.svg/11px-Loudspeaker.svg.png[/img] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English"]/[/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key"]k[/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key"]oʊ[/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key"]ˈ[/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key"]ɜr[/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key"]ʃ[/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key"]ən[/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English"]/[/url]) is the practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat"]threats[/url] or [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intimidation"]intimidation[/url] or some other form of pressure or force[/quote]



I would like to see what the community thinks of this before I persue legal action.


[quote]
[b]Original message:[/b]
Will you revive me?
[url="javascript:toggle(reptomsgdiv);"]Original message[/url]
RE~1: Untitled
There's a cost for everything.

But if it's met, certainly.

--Grido


[b]Your reply to this message:[/b]
What would that cost be?


RE~3: Untitled
Not ignoring this, just calculating a few things.

--Grido
[b]Your reply to this message:[/b]
Okay.


RE~3: Untitled
It would seem that if I want to stay alive myself, I have to charge 35 Gold - I will note that the person who issued the threat towards me isn't getting any of that, they just want to force you to pay that much.

--Grido
[b]Your reply to this message:[/b]
That is called extortion and is illegal.



RE~5: Untitled
It would be extortion if they obtained something from this. This is something entirely different...still wrong, but not extortion.

Either way, my apparent options are to charge you less - probably the same as I asked Spar, 20gc - and get killed. Or to charge you the 35gc and live.

--Grido [/quote]

Edited July 10, 2012 by Seigheart

[Grido]

First, I never mentioned if it was the same individual. I have no proof that it is, so cannot state it.

I am not extorting you, because there is no threat towards you from me, I have the ability to provide a service, you approached me that you might partake of that service.

I also stated that the person coercing me is not obtaining anything from this, and so that it is not extortion either.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Grido

[Seigheart]

[quote]RE~3: Untitled
Not ignoring this, just calculating a few things.

--Grido[/quote]

So, in the two or so minutes of this "calculating" you were contacted by an unknown party telling you not to revive me, even though what we discussed was completely private?

How would this person know what I asked you, if you were not aware of who killed me?

Why would they threaten to kill you if you revived me for less than 35gc? That in itself is called Extorcion.

They are threatening you, by using the kill item if you don't deny me use of the revival tool. Through inaction, you are effectively aiding and abeiting a murderer.

[quote]I also stated that the person coercing me is not obtaining anything from this, and so that it is not extortion either[/quote]

They are getting the denial of service to me.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Seigheart

[Valldore Nal]

Actually you are kind of wrong here Seig. Since Grido already offered to revive someone else with a price, anyone can easily assume that he would be willing to do the same. So they prob had already told him that, before you even ask him. Also , calculating could easily means that he just balance the pros and cons of whatever decision he makes, so nothing implies that the threat he got was at the time you asked.

Now , you can always think that he might be misleading you in order to get more coins (i don't want to be offending or anything Grido, don't really know you, but it can always be a possibility). As far as it concerns Gridos action, you can't blame him for anything. He has a service to offer, names the price and either you take it or not. Based on whatever "excuses" he might be telling to justify the price, you can't accuse anyone of anything.

Now, if he has mentioned names (which i doubt) that could be a different story. Without names, i personally see no story at all here

[Grido]

If you take into account the fact that you are dead, and posted in Mood Panel you wanted me to find you - a person who has a revive tool (along with my previous as Val said), it doesn't take a genius to add 2+2.

I already clarified why it isn't extortion. It's wrong, and is coercion, completely with you on that, but it's not extortion.

How am I aiding and abetting....? I'm neither giving them anything nor assisting them...I'd still be charging you if it weren't for this, as I said, just less.


No offence taken Vall , it's not the situation here, but it's certainly a very viable one. No names were mentioned by myself - the entire PM conversation myself and Seig had about it has been edited into the initial post apparently.

[Ivorak]

Whoa...

Seig, what was it you quoted that said extortion was illegal? It looks to me like you copied that from Wikipedia. So what if extortion is illegal in real life? That doesn't necessarily make it against the rules of the game.

If we're allowed to murder and kidnap (at least by game rules; I'm not saying there shouldn't be any sort of repercussion, it just needs to be enacted by players) then I think extortion is also fair game. MD should allow criminals. We (the players) should not.

[Nimrodel]

Not much into legal cliches, but from where i'm seeing, greedoh is being greedy as usual. Only difference is he just has a reason to support his greediness this time.

[Maebius]

[quote name='Ivorak' timestamp='1341967059' post='117213']
MD should allow criminals. We (the players) should not.
[/quote]

+1 Like.

My thought is similar, while I understand your frustration for being dead yet again, Seigheart, and trying to find a fair way out while righting perceived wrongs, attacking Grido here isn't going to solve anything. This isn't real life. There are slightly different rules here. Killing is wrong and illegal in real life too, and I do believe you happily confessed to killing Chewett recently. That colours things a bit where the "illegal" line is crossed yes?

I do hope you can be revived soon though. This just doesnt' seem to be helping the cause, though. Sorry.

[Grido]

You are not being denied service, as you state in your edit to your previous post, just the service costs more as a result.

[Rumi]

Would the conversation be different if the demand was not GC but credits? If I'm not mistaken our GC:credits ratio is 1:5. So Seigheart's revival would cost him $175? We can draw a line between players and characters, but I think that line between black and white can become a big grey area.

[Junior]

Why does it matter what the form of payment is? Could be 30 GC's could be 450 SC's could be $175, bottom line is that the price is there.

As well as to reiterate Grido the service is also there Seig may choose to pay or may not. its his choice and his alone. Now in regards to this being extortion... well no its not. Let me say that again its not in ANY way.

Now is Grido being coerced? well.... maybe... but if he is what gives you "Seig" the right to speak on his behalf? If Grido feels or felt to be threaten and wasnt happy am sure he would have done something by now. However why should he? Option A: If he wasnt being coerced he gets 20GC's Option B: He is being coerced he gets 30 GC's either way its money in his pocket.

Regardless at the end of the day whether or not coercion is being taken place/reported Seig is being provided with a service if he doesnt agree with the "Terms of Service" he may go bark up a different tree... May I Suggest Bob?

[Liberty4life]

personally i dont see a problem, out of all those ppl with revive, only grido is actually willin to use it at some price, others wouldnt wanna use it at ANY price

seigh should be happy that somebody is offering him revive at all

and yeah as junior said, if he doesnt likes terms of service he doesnt have to use the service

[Magistra]

Can't we, as a community, do something for Seig? I am no expert on revival, but we shouldn't allow murder in our realm. If Seigh can't afford 35 gold coins (I wouldn't!) then maybe there are other ways?

[Phantom Orchid]

[quote name='Magistra' timestamp='1342122173' post='117374']
Can't we, as a community, do something for Seig? I am no expert on revival, but we shouldn't allow murder in our realm. If Seigh can't afford 35 gold coins (I wouldn't!) then maybe there are other ways?
[/quote]


[font=comic sans ms,cursive]This seems to be straying off-topic, but for those interested in working to build a community-based revive endeavor (and/or earn a WP!), check out:[/font]
[url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12511-revival-fruit/page__pid__117298__st__20#entry117298"]http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12511-revival-fruit/page__pid__117298__st__20#entry117298[/url]