Training

[Syrian]

theres nothing saying they arnt allowed, at least to my knowledge, and i would never discourage people if they wanted to train a certain way, its all up to them to do whatever they like, but people have to understand that certain things are going to tick people the wrong way, intentionally or not. people dont take kindly to the idea of rules. you (aeo) have every right to set up a training area if you wish to,  i just suggested an alternative that worked for me, organised training in a non authoritative way, something like this is much less likely to receive public backlash. my post wasnt intended to be demeaning, nor anything i said.

 

 

on the topic of Nimmy and her disregard for the rules, they are player rules, set by players for players, they are not realm rules that should not be broken, they are in a different context entirely and it is up to her if she wishes to break those or not, there is no rule saying that she must follow rules set by other players, LHO or not. Her role as LHO is not relevant to the situation, judge her based on her actions to you on a personal level (which i am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with).

 

Sy

[everyone]

I never said you left GoTR because you were denied training. Your posts previous to your most recent and elaborative one had led me to believe you were upset because of the negative reputation and left because of it. You should make your points clear and try not to be so emotional about the situation.

 

If you had been more elaborative earlier, I would have been able to come to a different conclusion. I can only go on what I read in the topic.

 

Feel free to continue surfing the MB hidden forums to give me negative reputation on old posts. Unlike yourself, I'm not going to take it personally. :P

 

Edit: Added a sentance and fixed typos.

Edited June 11, 2014 by everyone

[Nimrodel]

Well done, LHO. Breaks rules rather than enforcing them.
 
Also, makes people leave rather than making them stay. Cheerio, cheerio.
 
Gotta let Grido know about this

Go ahead. Threaten me all you want.. I know I havent done anything wrong... Eon's treatment is best for people like you. Stalk and attack repeatedly with skill damage. Only then you people understand...

No, it's no crime to be honest. However, she's old enough to know other ways to point out that problem. "Don't set rules" and explaining about the GGG could have been one of the ways.
 
Also, I really doubt anyone points out such a problem and threatens to get in the way of training just because he or she doesn't like the way someone else trains.

I said repeatedly that if he asks for help, I'd help him. But the moment he sets rules and restricts me from doing something which i have full rights to do, i will go against it. I also said that hiding away in a secret place isnt an alternative. And there are multiple ways to go over that including teleporting out WHICH HAS BEEN DONE MULTIPLE TIMES IN THE PAST. Why is it so painful for you guys to set an extra rit instead of trying to force self created rules on to everyone on the community?

Edit: Also he is old enough not to confuse a warning with bullying. I am probably waaay more psychologically hurt than he would ever be. People who know me, know how sensitive I am. Edited June 11, 2014 by Nimrodel

[Nimrodel]

Okay. 
 
Dst has a point. Yes, I see that some people do not like rules or GGG. I have genuinely forgotten all the drama about GGG. At that time, I saw nothing negative in it and never really participated in the war on GGG. Hence it was out of my memory, as it was... what 4 years ago? 3 years ago? 
 
@dst - I take utterly no offense in your post and I take it as advice. You were clear, blunt, to the point, but not rude or aggressive. I have absolutely no problem with what you said. If anything, I appreciated it.
 
Lin, DD, thank you for standing up for me, but I do not think an LHO report would solve anything.
I have abandoned the idea of training entirely and furthermore, I do not wish to make it seem like I'm trying to get something out of this.
 
The problem that seems to elude Everyone and Nimrodel and perhaps Sy to a point, unless I'm reading her posts wrong, is that Nimrodel openly bullied me into abandoning this idea. I did not save the GoE chatlogs, nor have I any intention of pursuing this to any extent of "getting something out of being bullied". I do not wish to quote Nim, as I may not be 100% accurate, but, to paraphrase, she did say she will summon me out of hiding places or chase me around just to break these rules I mentioned there might be.
 
Problem: harassment. I did not mention anywhere "obey rules or F off", "obey rules or I will F you up", "you are obliged to come here, abandon whatever the F you're doing in MD and obey rules or else". It was merely a suggestion of organising things, such as "if you want to come and train, let me know beforehand, if you want to be part of the training group, don't hit and run, give tips, etc". Plus, I don't think anyone has to conform to these rules in all of MD, as some people seem to imply. If you guys don't like it, then you could just leave me to sit there alone like a total doof and not give a F about what I'm trying to do. I understand I might have just blown it out of proportion by incorrectly associating common sense with GGG.
 
I just saw this as unnecessary aggression coming from an LHO. Yes, I have spoken to another LHO and I understand that, supposedly, in this case Nim acted as a player and not as an LHO. While I don't think the two are entirely separable, since regardless of what "hat" she is wearing she still has the power and authority to silence me, I will give her this.
 
This was NOT about forum rep. Sure I don't like my rep going down for 3 letters; people were showing enthusiasm and when GGG pops up they lose it. But it was a faux pas, and despite the fact that I have forgotten about the negativity surrounding GGG, I will assume guilt for that.
If any other player without any staff function (e.g. average player) had used the exact same threats on me, I would have probably been more dismissive and I imagine there is a chance the reaction of staff members may have been different, should I have called harassment on it.
 
The problem, as stated above, is when you feel threatened by the staff of the game for not breaking any written rules. If I did miss a written rule about no training groups, please slap it across my face. Regardless of different "player" and "staff" hats, people which possess staff functions have the authority and power to squash regular players for personal reasons and, most likely, get away with it. That was the reason for my "tantrum". 
 
Yes, I may have overreacted. Yes, some of the points made by dst, Nim and Sy are 100% valid. Yes, I am likely wrong in some respects. 
But please do not diminish this to "he got -1 rep and he flipped".
 
Also, @Everyone:
Me leaving GotR was NOT because I was denied training by Nim. It was because of internal reasons which required me having creatures; requirement which I no longer met.
 
 
 
As my last two cents, I do not wish to gain anything from this, and I sincerely doubt I would gain anything anyway. I dare to hope for an apology for uncalled aggression from Nim, but nevertheless, I wish not to seem as if I feel entitled to it. I understand that some "diplomatic" methods are not always gentle.
 
 
 
 
EDIT: Rephrased some things for clarity; also omitted something which I just added.

Apologise? For warning you what might come? Never.

As far as my LHO job is concerned, did I use my LHO powers? No. Did I lie to you or cheat you? No. Did i do something unspeakable? No. What did I do? Warn you. Are you a noob who doesnt know anything? No. Apparently you are so weak, that you equated getting a warning as bullying my lho powers. Did I use my LHO powers to warn you? No. Did I use profane language? No. Did I force you to quit the game like those bashers you mentioned about? No. Did I not ask you to put in effort instead of wanting things readymade? Yes. Did I not offer you my help? I did. Should I apologise to you for warning you what might come next? Never.

Go ahead and scream about as much as you can. If goodwill isnt something an LHO, most importantly a fellow player must show, if grido accuses me of anything regarding this or asks me to apologise, I openly state, I will quit my lho post. Whine about it as much as you can.

[Aeoshattr]

Nim, you missed the point of my post. 

As for the psychologically hurt part, I will leave it to this: I don't know you, but you don't know me either. Whether one of us is more psychologically damaged than the other is irrelevant.

 

I am fairly certain that if I point out that you jumped to conclusions, just like I did, which I admit may be right, you will not see it, nor will other people. 

Did I effectively write down any rules? No. Did I say the rules will be the GGG rules? No. "probably" is not "certainly". The rules might have just as well been "Say hi when you come here and bye when you leave". Would that restrict your rights so much? Why assume I want to restrict people from the simple mentioning of "rules". Does the "Do no harm" in the Hippocratic oath restrict people? Did I say I want them enforced on everyone in the community as you explicitly say? No and I cannot understand where you got that idea from. Was I waiting for something ready-made (like you explicitly said you were in the GoE chat?) No, hence why I attempted to get a training group together rather than barge in on an existing one. Did I even suggest that if someone not in the training group came and attacked or somehow disobeyed the guidelines, there would be repercussions? No. Did you offer help after threatening me? Yes, I never denied that.

 

Yes, I use "threat" because you didn't "warn" me. Saying "people will come and mess your group up" or "you shouldn't do that because [rational reason]" is different from saying "I will come and mess your group up because I don't like rules (which I'm not FORCED to obey)" like you did. I'm sure that if I told someone "I'll come to your home and mess your party up just 'cause I don't like the games you play" it would be considered a threat not a warning.

 

My point: you DID NOT effectively do anything other than warn me, as you say. I am fairly certain I actually stated that earlier, that the only problem was the "warning" itself. But I DID NOT effectively do anything either, and you don't seem to see that. My words seem to be taken as actions, even if they're just vague suggestions, whereas yours can be dismissed as "well I just said that, but I didn't do anything" even though they're fairly specific. If I don't understand why and it's obvious, please point it out to me. 

 

Also, I don't think my previous post was "screaming" though maybe I am wrong and it came across like that. I really did try and maintain a composed tone and hope I didn't come across as demeaning.

Last note, I specifically asked DD not to take this to Grido and I mentioned throughout my previous post that I do not seek to get anything out of what I see (and hope is) as a misunderstanding.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Aeoshattr

[Nimrodel]

Nim, you missed the point of my post. 
As for the psychologically hurt part, I will leave it to this: I don't know you, but you don't know me either. Whether one of us is more psychologically damaged than the other is irrelevant.
 
I am fairly certain that if I point out that you jumped to conclusions, just like I did, which I admit may be right, you will not see it, nor will other people. 
Did I effectively write down any rules? No. Did I say the rules will be the GGG rules? No. "probably" is not "certainly". The rules might have just as well been "Say hi when you come here and bye when you leave". Would that restrict your rights so much? Why assume I want to restrict people from the simple mentioning of "rules". Does the "Do no harm" in the Hippocratic oath restrict people? Did I say I want them enforced on everyone in the community as you explicitly say? No and I cannot understand where you got that idea from. Was I waiting for something ready-made (like you explicitly said you were in the GoE chat?) No, hence why I attempted to get a training group together rather than barge in on an existing one. Did I even suggest that if someone not in the training group came and attacked or somehow disobeyed the guidelines, there would be repercussions? No. Did you offer help after threatening me? Yes, I never denied that.
 
Yes, I use "threat" because you didn't "warn" me. Saying "people will come and mess your group up" or "you shouldn't do that because [rational reason]" is different from saying "I will come and mess your group up because I don't like rules (which I'm not FORCED to obey)" like you did. I'm sure that if I told someone "I'll come to your home and mess your party up just 'cause I don't like the games you play" it would be considered a threat not a warning.
 
My point: you DID NOT effectively do anything other than warn me, as you say. I am fairly certain I actually stated that earlier, that the only problem was the "warning" itself. But I DID NOT effectively do anything either, and you don't seem to see that. My words seem to be taken as actions, even if they're just vague suggestions, whereas yours can be dismissed as "well I just said that, but I didn't do anything" even though they're fairly specific. If I don't understand why and it's obvious, please point it out to me. 
 
Also, I don't think my previous post was "screaming" though maybe I am wrong and it came across like that. I really did try and maintain a composed tone and hope I didn't come across as demeaning.
Last note, I specifically asked DD not to take this to Grido and I mentioned throughout my previous post that I do not seek to get anything out of what I see (and hope is) as a misunderstanding.

1. I am not psychologically damaged. I dont know if you consider yourself to be damaged or not.

2.Lol.. You were very vocal about not wanting people to train on your little group without following rules similar to the GGG ones. I explained what GGG rules were in chat, specifically, you didnt contradict about setting them as your training party 'rules' either which suggests what?

By enforcing them on the community, I was referring to the fact that you expected people to follow the rules you planned to lay for your training group otherwise you'd call the other people rude. Why? If that is not called enforcing rules on the community, what is?

Of course I said I wanted,to break your rules because,i wanted a readymade training group. (sometimes i wonder if my expression of sarcasm is worse than Sheldon's :p) If you'd have used your,common sense you might have noted that had i been one of the people who preferred readymade stuff, i'd have left md a long time back when ggg, sparring grounds and other stuff were,removed. Hell i was an extremely weak mp5 player back then.

I used the words 'Hiding is not an alternative to train like GGG because,if i wanted i could always tele you out even if you hid inside the pathkeeper to train' that sounds like a threat?
If you say that and actually come to my house, i could get you arrested for trespassing because its law. There is no such law in MD. If i want to come and get a few wins by attacking you and in return I get to hear words,like rude and threaten Of course I'd be pissed. Why should someone call me rude when i haven't made a mistake? You even accused me of making you quit the game in chat and said that you left the game before because of bashers like me... Bashers? Lol.. I remember telling you the difference between me and you was that i trained patiently to bash the bashers back rather than leaving the game. Didnt I? YOU THREATENED ME saying you want to leave the game because of me.

If you read my post though, I said the moment you lay rules, I'll break them. I never said i'd ruin your training group without that. You are the one who got defensive and started accusing me of what not... Jeez.

[Aeoshattr]

1. Bad choice of words. I should have use "hurt", as you did in your original post.

2. I do not remember saying that I did not want to train without people following GGG rules, but anything is possible, and if I did, then I see why I was wrong. If I did not reject them at GoE, then I rejected them in one of my previous posts here, saying that I didn't remember the negativity around GGG or its rules exactly. Yes, you told me the rules and after you explained I posted that on the forum. I decided not to edit my original post about it even though I understood the mistake because it would have looked like I was trying to hide it.

 

Community implies all the players in the game, as far as my vocabulary goes. It is possible that I am wrong, though.

Calling people rude is different from suggesting that you will come and break their rules just because. Though you did not threaten me with stat damage, I dare to compare it to what I said earlier. You can just shrug it off if someone calls you an idiot, but you can't just shrug off stat damage (or lost fights). Sure, you can compensate - I am not denying this, but you can't say "nah, i didn't get stat damage (or a loss), i don't care what your opinion on that is". So while yes, calling you rude may be rude of myself in turn, I don't think it's as serious an offense as your warning. Nevertheless, you have the right to get offended.

 

The party thing was an analogy. Really. There may be no trespassing rules in MD, but the point was that it's strange to go somewhere where you aren't obliged to go and then demand that people conform to your wishes. It is entirely voluntary. Like I said in a previous post, for what I care, everybody may have just ignored me and not come at all: I am not forcing anyone to come and comply to my alleged rules. 

 

Yes, I see you saying 'Hiding is not an alternative to train like GGG because,if i wanted i could always tele you out even if you hid inside the pathkeeper to train'  and 'I never said i'd ruin your training group without that' as threats as it implies "you either do things the way I want you to or I will make it a pain in the butt for you to do them at all". 

 

I hardly think me telling you "I left the game before because of bashers like you" is a threat in any way. For all I know, you could just not give a flying F if one player leaves the game, I don't consider myself such an important player to this game that it wouldn't be able to continue without me. Would it affect you in any way if I left because of you? You have the support of other people in this issue, so I don't really think so. It's something you can simply shrug off. Yes, it was rude of me to call you a basher, though and that may have been indeed uncalled for.

Nevertheless, if it DID sound like a threat, it is not what I meant. It was a statement of what happened before. I do not remember saying "I WILL LEAVE the game because of you".

 

In the end, however, I understand your point. You did say "the moment you set rules I will break them" and while that may not be a nice way to phrase it, you are right. I did jump to conclusions.

 

P.S. Making a mistake and being rude have nothing in common. You can be right and be rude, nice and make a mistake, or any combination of the two.

 

Edit: realised I may have retained access to private MB forums as I am a former MB citizen. That feature should probably be removed.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Aeoshattr

[Chewett]

 

Well done, LHO. Breaks rules rather than enforcing them.

 

Also, makes people leave rather than making them stay. Cheerio, cheerio.

 

Gotta let Grido know about this

 

DD, as a word of advice, Nim isnt breaking the rules. She is stating she will break a social convention. What If I made a rule for no LHO to speak in my precense (a social rule note) would then breaking that be breaking rules?

 

 

No, atleast not in my situation. I used the reputation system as it was intended. To show approval or dissapproval of a post or idea. You should read up on it's intended purposes before assuming things like that.

 

This is how the reputation system should be used, as I used it too. I agree that I dislike GGG style rules being imposed and voted accordingly.

 

Edit: Also he is old enough not to confuse a warning with bullying. I am probably waaay more psychologically hurt than he would ever be. People who know me, know how sensitive I am.

 

As someone who inadvertently hurt nim, Yes she can be quite sensitive. Luckily she is also quite forgiving :)

[Ary Endleg]

Ah the beauty of semantics. If Aeo used "guidelines" or similar instead of "rules" none of this would happen. I must admit that I would have written "rules" too if it was me while not thinking on the enforcement part of it. That word is so common today that we use it so much and in place of other words that have partially shared meaning with it. Also when people get idea and are excited they just rush to show it in which process it is presented in shortest form possible. I mean who the hell would in his place with that many enthusiasm remember to write it as "oh also I will probably propose from interested parties to be mutually respectful of so far consensual training guidelines". Frustration does same thing which makes Nim's reply no better at all. Difference is that most of you backed her up because you could understand what she actually meant with that reply since you shared same opinion, but other party doesn't and hence perceives it wrong just like you perceived Aeo wrong. I don't see him as trying to reanimate dictatorial training ground from the past, but rather he tried to get people together and put some basic guidelines in place for organizational purpose of consensual training.

 

If this dramas keep coming to forum I might be forced into canceling my cable subscription. Also seems like drama used to be a thing back in the day, will all the vets show up now due to scent of drama and solve population problem?

[dst]

 Also seems like drama used to be a thing back in the day, will all the vets show up now due to scent of drama and solve population problem?

Yes.

[Nimrodel]

1. Bad choice of words. I should have use "hurt", as you did in your original post.

2. I do not remember saying that I did not want to train without people following GGG rules, but anything is possible, and if I did, then I see why I was wrong. If I did not reject them at GoE, then I rejected them in one of my previous posts here, saying that I didn't remember the negativity around GGG or its rules exactly. Yes, you told me the rules and after you explained I posted that on the forum. I decided not to edit my original post about it even though I understood the mistake because it would have looked like I was trying to hide it.

 

Community implies all the players in the game, as far as my vocabulary goes. It is possible that I am wrong, though.

Calling people rude is different from suggesting that you will come and break their rules just because. Though you did not threaten me with stat damage, I dare to compare it to what I said earlier. You can just shrug it off if someone calls you an idiot, but you can't just shrug off stat damage (or lost fights). Sure, you can compensate - I am not denying this, but you can't say "nah, i didn't get stat damage (or a loss), i don't care what your opinion on that is". So while yes, calling you rude may be rude of myself in turn, I don't think it's as serious an offense as your warning. Nevertheless, you have the right to get offended.

 

The party thing was an analogy. Really. There may be no trespassing rules in MD, but the point was that it's strange to go somewhere where you aren't obliged to go and then demand that people conform to your wishes. It is entirely voluntary. Like I said in a previous post, for what I care, everybody may have just ignored me and not come at all: I am not forcing anyone to come and comply to my alleged rules. 

 

Yes, I see you saying 'Hiding is not an alternative to train like GGG because,if i wanted i could always tele you out even if you hid inside the pathkeeper to train'  and 'I never said i'd ruin your training group without that' as threats as it implies "you either do things the way I want you to or I will make it a pain in the butt for you to do them at all". 

 

I hardly think me telling you "I left the game before because of bashers like you" is a threat in any way. For all I know, you could just not give a flying F if one player leaves the game, I don't consider myself such an important player to this game that it wouldn't be able to continue without me. Would it affect you in any way if I left because of you? You have the support of other people in this issue, so I don't really think so. It's something you can simply shrug off. Yes, it was rude of me to call you a basher, though and that may have been indeed uncalled for.

Nevertheless, if it DID sound like a threat, it is not what I meant. It was a statement of what happened before. I do not remember saying "I WILL LEAVE the game because of you".

 

In the end, however, I understand your point. You did say "the moment you set rules I will break them" and while that may not be a nice way to phrase it, you are right. I did jump to conclusions.

 

P.S. Making a mistake and being rude have nothing in common. You can be right and be rude, nice and make a mistake, or any combination of the two.

 

Edit: realised I may have retained access to private MB forums as I am a former MB citizen. That feature should probably be removed.

ok.. bored of the bickering. I'd rather spend all the extra time playing with my baby squirrel. to sum my view up:

 

1, You need help, ask. i will help you. But if you say i was rude to attack you, i will not tolerate it.

2. I have no intentions of kicking you out of the game, making your life hell or any other ideas that DD might get. Even if one player leaves MD for whatever reason, it matters a lot to me even if it is a player I don't like or have had arguments with.

3. if you want to get plenty of success in MD, you will have to struggle. there is no easy way around. This game relies majorly on the concept of survival of the fittest. Fittest doesn't necessarily mean strongest.

4. Just because people don't openly contradict you in the forum doesn't mean that its only me, dst, chewett or everyone who are against that particular idea. There are others who just don't talk as much as we do :P

 

Good luck with your training.. hope you learn what each level does rather than just up your creatures for the sake of upping. If you don't know how to use your crits even the strongest drachorn is useless. That was the primary motive of going against the idea of GGG in the first place.

 

 

As someone who inadvertently hurt nim, Yes she can be quite sensitive. Luckily she is also quite forgiving  :)

Ps: smooth Chew... It helped me calm down :P

[Granos]

Just do it, even though personally I disagree with things generally like this that is still no reason for me to tell you not to do it. People no matter what you try to do will try to stop you in one way or another for various reasons, most of them being over petty ego issues though.

The most important thing about all of this though is that you are actively getting people involved in something, doing something be it the training or even working against it, hell even I was tempted to react to it. This action and reaction aspect often times killed on the forums (mainly due to petty egos as mentioned before) is one of the most important things to MD, especially now. 

So in short ignore them, go and do and remember you are making things move one way or another, and think to yourself what the hell have the people who are trying to kill the idea been doing to get any motion in MD?

Take pride in this and do it.

[Curiose]

"Every action has an equal and opposite reaction."

 

You do something. People react to it. You're going to have that Law as stated above every time you do something. As Granos said, as long as you are working towards making things happen... you can do no wrong.

So do it.

[Ary Endleg]

"Every action has an equal and opposite reaction."

 

*giggles* Oh yes laws are getting quoted already! :p just replace "reaction" with "forum criticism" :D

[Curiose]

Yarp!
I find them fitting and useful. Very applicable in life situations.