GG's "Shared" tool policies

[Chewett]

What do the members of GG say to:
 
Ann. 1984 - [2011-08-16 07:12:27 - Stage 10] 
Land leaders are requested not to interfere with the shared tools by placing any land laws to govern their use. The tools are meant to be grabbed by anyone regardless of land and further changes to the way they will be available are still pending. It is too soon to have any land specific regulations regarding shared tools.

[Burns]

I'd like to point out that we've never made any claim on the part of grabbing our tools. Anybody who wishes so can come and grab our tools, they'll not be hindered.

It so happens that some of our tools are in a place that's not publically available, and only some people have access there. Golemus citizens, who are the majority of the people with access as it happens, fall under the full rule of the golemus land leader, and at no point does the announcement claim that a land leader mustn't rule over his/her subjects in regards to public tools.

[Ary Endleg]

Yes that's what's going on. GGers with access to this exclusive location exploit the opportunity of tools being spawned in there in order to profit from shared items, their perspective is that if certain people can earn tons of gold from selling spells, mainly teleportation spells they too should get a "slice of the cake", even though that still doesn't fare along with concept of SHARED tools.

 

All lands (well mainlands :P) have their exclusive locations usually with only land leader having access to them. Lately there have been bigger demand for other citizens to be able to acquire access to such places. So far Golemus is the only land who's leader can do such a thing with his spell keyggdeep. I expect the other lands to follow soon with such feature where MB king for example would be able to unlock for his favorite citizen access to Champion's Challenge for example or Angien's shrine. LR leaders to unlock Path Keeper for instance, NC king to open Fields of Fear for example, and so on.

 

However problem is when at such exclusive location you have itemdispatch or creaturerecruiting. In comparison you can look at Angien's shrine, only a few selected Bellians have access, but do they make tons of money from Angiens like Golemians do with their shared items? NO, instead they have couple of easy permanent quests that take some effort and time but even MP3 can do them and they nicely can learn beginner stuff about the game and in addition earn Angien creature. I even think they have upper tier research works in which you can participate as follow up on those quests for additional reward, possible another Angien. Then you have Berserker's Charge where you can get Tormented Souls. We Necrovians don't sell them but if you are nice you can get one for free. Besides you can also acquire access to that scene by spending a WP.

 

However in case of Angien and TS, they don't have that high value in first place because when you get few of them you are set! Since they don't have sacc values you don't need continuous flow of them, while memory collector for example resets each week and has big monetary value to specific spell holders. It's hard for me to say how things would look exactly if Angien and TS were to give awesome stats on sacrifice and if Beserker's charge wasn't unlockable with WP. That's why I have highly mixed feelings about itemdispatch and creaturerecruiting in those exclusive area.

 

Honestly for creatures in such scenes I would prefer if it was done in Drach style where land leader would supervise handling out of creatures based on merit rather than trade, things like quest rewards and contributions to land growth. As for itemdispatch, the best would be that if exclusive location has to have it, then tools present there should already be available in public location, exclusive location shouldn't have some sort of unique tool that isn't found anywhere else. (You guessed it, I'm not a big fan of land loyalty requirement for certain tools either, but that's offtopic)

[Nimrodel]

Peace said necros lend their passpapers to other people for 1s. Unless they are potential necros. I am sure chewett can agree witnessing that because he argued with her as well. Atleast ggs dont sell passpapers.
Also, give ggs gg usable only tools like woodcutting tools and water collecting tools. I am sure they'll understand.. Care to turn memory stone detectors and fenth collectors into citizen only tools? Or heat jars would do too. A gg will always be required for tea or cake then :)
Besides, there are 2 stone collectors now out of gg. I thought chew was giving it for free? Also, there is also a fenths collector independant which shem can lend if you manage to contact him :3 with all these independant tools why do people keep attacking ggs? I dont remember seeing an independant bone collector with any non necro. If there is one, forgive me for not paying attention. :p

[Ary Endleg]

Peace said necros lend their passpapers to other people for 1s. Unless they are potential necros. I am sure chewett can agree witnessing that because he argued with her as well. Atleast ggs dont sell passpapers.

 

I never heard of this before nor I ever saw selling of passpapers nor we have policy regarding it as far as I know. But anyhow we are both appearing to defensive and with that last sentence you are sort of "pointing finger" and claiming "we are better than you are", lets not do that, there's no moral high ground in here, be it 1sc for passpapers or 1gc for memory collector, sale of shared items is bad. I hope we can all agree on that one.

[Nimrodel]

Also a sand melter.. I forgot about that one.. :3
Also.. I am not gg anymore. I just find it funny how people attack ggs when other lands do the same stuff, just not that openly.

[Rophs]

Was the location exclusive when those items are added to it?

[Chewett]

Was the location exclusive when those items are added to it?

yes.

 

And im not personally attacking anyone (I hope thats clear) but I was wondering what GG thought of this, based on said announcement I found when working on some announcement related features.

[Rophs]

If the location was exclusive when the items were added to it then whoever put the items there must have meant for them to be exclusive as well.

[Ary Endleg]

Well we can argue that certain tools are a bit different because they require certain land loyalty to grab them in first place. I don't know if GG hidden tools require it. That is a concept I don't understand, I get it when it comes to passpapers, but not for tools, if it requires X land loyalty to grab it but 0 land loyalty to use I don't quite understand the point of it. It pretty much screams "rent me" yet it is shared item. In addition to what I said in my first post I'll also add I don't like idea of tools the way they are now, but again that is offtopic.

 

I have never witnessed the actions you speak of Nimmy, but if they are true then personally I condemn them.

 

Edit: indeed Rophs, I'll quote.

 

 

Ann. 2047 - [2011-10-05 04:15:03 - Stage 11] Posted By Muratus del Mur
Golemus Lab - Item dispatcher location
Golemus Laboratory chest holds a wide range of shared items. Liquid language flasks that make you speak other languages, the reality coagulators that allow you to materialize fenths, sand melters for creating raw glass and memory stone detectors are all there. Access to the location is governed by the GG King, through a key he can permanently give to anyone he alone decides. This location is a GG location and the tools places there might seem to be totaly unbalanced and unfair to be limited to GG citizens, but they are transferable and making them shared is just a first step. The other lands will get their own set of insanely important tools to controll when their time comes. Details about the sandmelter devices will be communicated by Lone Wolf to the current sand melters. Liquid language flasks effect is now 1 hour. All scripts stored on the GG Lab chest, were transfered to the vial (same location) so that their owners can recover them if needed.

 

After 3 years other lands still haven't got anything to balance this out like it was planned.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Ary Endleg

[lashtal]

I dont remember seeing an independant bone collector with any non necro. If there is one, forgive me for not paying attention. :P

 

I never saw an independent bone collector in the realm.

If you're referring to the independent skull trowel, I've lent mine for free to the few who asked for it.

[Eara Meraia]

pass papers: Peace said something like that before. But it was never a real "rule". Every citizen could decide to give papers or no on their own taste, charging what they want or nothing. And to 99% of cases its the last.

 

bones collectors: I think there was one, not even belonging to NC citizens, (I think Caretakers know more, I dont want to raise this issue now, because it is irrelevant). But Nim, you sound a bit funny  here...you compare stones to bones. If you want we can exchange bones for stones as 1 to 1. Deal? Please say yes, would be cool :P

[rikstar]

There was already a trade with bones for memory stones, if I remember it correctly. :)

[Chewett]

If the location was exclusive when the items were added to it then whoever put the items there must have meant for them to be exclusive as well.

 

That assumes mur knew it was exclusive, thats a very big assumption.

[Shadowseeker]

From as far as I remember he knew about that? I mean back then it was discussed a lot, and I think the idea was to make things in this way to see how they'd develop, then he would "soon" balance things out.

[Nimrodel]

pass papers: Peace said something like that before. But it was never a real "rule". Every citizen could decide to give papers or no on their own taste, charging what they want or nothing. And to 99% of cases its the last.
 
bones collectors: I think there was one, not even belonging to NC citizens, (I think Caretakers know more, I dont want to raise this issue now, because it is irrelevant). But Nim, you sound a bit funny  here...you compare stones to bones. If you want we can exchange bones for stones as 1 to 1. Deal? Please say yes, would be cool :P

promise me you wont sell your enchanted memory stones for 1g or even more then sure. Give away your enchanted memory stones for free to people sure i will more than willingly give you memory stones for one is to one. People shamelessly want to make immense profit out of spell stones made from lho spells but are whine when they are asked to pay 1s a day as rent to land treasury. Who's the greedy one here? Only gg's? Surely not. Also, whose fault is it that bones are non functional or unimportant at the moment? Ggs? Instead of complaining about gg's asking you to pay a silver a day, a day in which you can collect a lot of memory stone = a lot of gold ask people to make bones equally important. Or to make every instrument not requiring any loyalty or citizenship, be kept in accessible places. Which would include lowering gate costs as well. Agree to that?

also, i have been more than magnanimus in exchanging resources, including with your fellow necro for bones, a large order too as well. I exchanged memory stones with syrian for bones, dd for branches, and rhaegar for water. Hell i even added a few extra. What did i do with those bones? Gave away 172 bones to draconas so that he could munch on them. Used the branches to make tea and cake which i shared with anyone whowanted some. From noobs to vets. How many of you actually managed to trade your resources like that? Incessant whining about unfairness in unfair when you are making no efforts to make things easier by yourself. Infact hatsoff to dd, syrian and rhaegar who made the whole deal in true spirit of what mur intended should happen with resources possible. Rather than sitting like lazy bums in one corner and complaining about unfairness.

[Ary Endleg]

Or to make every instrument not requiring any loyalty or citizenship, be kept in accessible places. Which would include lowering gate costs as well. Agree to that?

 

Sounds awesome to me.

[Nimrodel]

Sounds awesome to me.

awesome :D do the necro king and queen, and gg king concur?
Add mb king and loreroot council too in the question

[lashtal]

People shamelessly want to make immense profit out of spell stones made from lho spells but are whine when they are asked to pay 1s a day as rent to land treasury. 

 

Ehm, I believe the ones who tried to make immense profit were exactly from GG.. But memory may fail me.

 

Also, whose fault is it that bones are non functional or unimportant at the moment? Ggs? Instead of complaining about gg's asking you to pay a silver a day, a day in which you can collect a lot of memory stone = a lot of gold ask people to make bones equally important. Or to make every instrument not requiring any loyalty or citizenship, be kept in accessible places. Which would include lowering gate costs as well. Agree to that?

 

Not much. It's not just a matter of being active and / or begging the powers above to make resources equally important.

Bones are bones, they can't be turned to stardust, no matter how much effort one puts into it. 

Necrovion has been working on ways to make resources such as bones useful/usable, be it via quests or recipe-like experiments. (and you, Nim, you already noticed a homunculus taking form ;) )

Of course all that takes time, and it might even stay as a discussion, meaning not-implemented.

Does that mean Necros are lazy compared to Golemians? No. 

 

 

On the other hand, memory stones are meant for everybody, they had a purpose since they were implemented.

However, the tools to gather them have been placed deep inside Golemus (decision which I even find fitting, to be completely honest). 

What I dislike is seeing prices to rent such tools, especially when we have people running around with 700 memory stones in their inventory.

But then again, I blame my communist roots.

 

[...] How many of you actually managed to trade your resources like that? 

 

More than you probably think. The fact other people may talk less doesn't mean they are not doing anything.

For example, I managed to trade for the resources I wanted myself, and without using a single coin.

(people who dealt with lashtal know he doesn't handle coins - leashes auction being the only exception).

[Nimrodel]

Ehm, I believe the ones who tried to make immense profit were exactly from GG.. But memory may fail me.
 

 
Not much. It's not just a matter of being active and / or begging the powers above to make resources equally important.
Bones are bones, they can't be turned to stardust, no matter how much effort one puts into it. 
Necrovion has been working on ways to make resources such as bones useful/usable, be it via quests or recipe-like experiments. (and you, Nim, you already noticed a homunculus taking form ;) )
Of course all that takes time, and it might even stay as a discussion, meaning not-implemented.
Does that mean Necros are lazy compared to Golemians? No. 
 
 
On the other hand, memory stones are meant for everybody, they had a purpose since they were implemented.
However, the tools to gather them have been placed deep inside Golemus (decision which I even find fitting, to be completely honest). 
What I dislike is seeing prices to rent such tools, especially when we have people running around with 700 memory stones in their inventory.
But then again, I blame my communist roots.
 

 
More than you probably think. The fact other people may talk less doesn't mean they are not doing anything.
For example, I managed to trade for the resources I wanted myself, and without using a single coin.
(people who dealt with lashtal know he doesn't handle coins - leashes auction being the only exception).

As you said, if its not out, doesnt mean its not happening with others. There were other people too who sold their lho spells for gold... Just because its not public like alyon, doesnt mean it didnt happen. :p

By lazy, i was referring to the fact that people didnt want to put in effort to,collect resources to trade for memory stones. My post wasnt a direct attack against necros. It was an attack against all those people who want things to be easy rather than trying to put in effort. If a sand castle has use, i am sure bone powder can have use too. This is md. Bones neednt give stardust to be important.

Your fellow necro agreed in the forums that your queen charged 1s for passpapers. And you complaint about ggs taking rent for instruments that give you profits in gold? Weird...

If you wanted memory stones, what prevented you from approaching me for them for trade. Surely you knew that i traded a bunch for bones with syrian since you were the one who collected them for her... I have never asked money for memory stones. Just a bit of time to collect them.
Infactv, unlike many people, i give my enchanted stones away for free, in quests and out of quests too.

[Syrian]

nobody has had to pay for pass papers into our lland since ive been playing, at least to my knowledge, ive always given them out for free. just because necros agreed that she(peace) did it, doesnt mean we agree with it

 

Rikstar has an independent bone tool.

 

i cant say im too fond of GGs renting their tools, but when you can rent a detector for 7s for a week and gather over 50 memory stones in that time, im inclined to not care that much, 7s for that much memory stones is a fair deal. but for people who cant make that many and just want to gather a few stones to stone their favorite spell incase they want to use it later or give it away for a quest, 1s is quite a lot.personally i dont think any tool should have a price attached to it, not even necro tools (because 1s for access to our land? what is that about?? kindness and good will should be worth a lot more to people than 1s)

 

Sy

Edited July 29, 2014 by Syrian

[Nimrodel]

nobody has had to pay for pass papers into our lland since ive been playing, at least to my knowledge, ive always given them out for free. just because necros agreed that she(peace) did it, doesnt mean we agree with it

 

Rikstar has an independent bone tool.

 

i cant say im too fond of GGs renting their tools, but when you can rent a detector for 7s for a week and gather over 50 memory stones in that time, im inclined to not care that much, 7s for that much memory stones is a fair deal. but for people who cant make that many and just want to gather a few stones to stone their favorite spell incase they want to use it later or give it away for a quest, 1s is quite a lot.personally i dont think any tool should have a price attached to it, not even necro tools (because 1s for access to our land? what is that about?? kindness and good will should be worth a lot more to people than 1s)

 

Sy

 

Agree or not she is your queen and one of your faces. What she does, says and how she behaves is a projection of what your land believes in whether you agree or not. 

 

For the people who cant afford memory stone detectors, surely you can gather somethingelse and exchange for memory stones. apparently there are plenty of tools in MD that can be freely obtained and resources freely collected.

[Kamisha]

Personally the way I see it although I am not a GG citizen (or of any location) the way I see it is that the tool is placed in a shared location for everybody to have the option to use it. Its actually directly in the name. A shared tool is supposed to be open to everybody. However in the case of land loyalty I understand that since it makes sure there are tools for that land. However if there is no land loyalty score it should remain open to the public not stored where only there citizens can access it. I think the reasoning behind a tool not requiring a land score is not to horde it but to keep it open to those who are of different lands.

[Nimrodel]

Personally the way I see it although I am not a GG citizen (or of any location) the way I see it is that the tool is placed in a shared location for everybody to have the option to use it. Its actually directly in the name. A shared tool is supposed to be open to everybody. However in the case of land loyalty I understand that since it makes sure there are tools for that land. However if there is no land loyalty score it should remain open to the public not stored where only there citizens can access it. I think the reasoning behind a tool not requiring a land score is not to horde it but to keep it open to those who are of different lands.

 

Umm no. the reason behind any shared tool is to promote trade between different lands :P if remember correctly from what Mur said :P

[dst]

Ok, here's the thing:

 

 

It's funny how the biggest  screamers are the ones that have the most "non" shared items?

Let's take them one by one:

 

GG - their tools are in an inaccessible to normal players place = shared only for few (not even for ALL citizens). What angered the community were the laws yrthilian made back when those items were created. You can find them here. Was it wrong? Unethical? Illegal? No. You have to be insane not to try to extract some profit from something that you are the only one who has it.  However, they were at least opened to the idea of sharing even if for a price.

 

Necro - let's say that I manage to get into Necro. I cannot take ANY item because ALL of them require loyalty. Do you remember, Necros our fight from 2 years ago when you got mad at Eon for getting the shovels? You were very "SHARY" back then (and you haven't change unfortunately).  You were worst than GG-ers. You couldn't stand anyone who was not one of yours take the items. Not nice of you. Not at all. If I understand the GG-ers with their fee (after all as Nimmy said, you can make a huge profit from memory stones+spellls) I really don't understand you. Another mistery to be solved :D

 

Loreroot - although they were the most vocal about depletion, they never ever tried to stop anyone from getting the baskets (or if they did it was only for a short period of time). As for the rest of their items, I don't remember them being cheap and not giving them to anyone who asked (Except the well known depletors :D - which by the way managed to make a deal with Loreroot. A decent one without any blackmail and such.). I was very surprised some weeks ago (or days) when Tal passed 2 shared items to No one even if the latest didn't ask for them. Tal! Just look at his Personal Request Month wishes to understand what resources and depletion mean to him.

 

MB - their never really had a share tool only for themselves so they are out of the discussion.

 

 

So, the issue with the shared tools is not about the  possibility/impossibility to acquire them. The issue is the people's attitude towards them. I agree, loyalty based items were meant to encourage trade between lands. But this doesn't means you should cling to them with your teeth. Or be unreasonable and put some really nasty rules about renting and all that. Yes, some tools are more valuable than others. Make a profit from them BUT don't forget it's something you got for free. So don't be an a**hole and pose in St. Mary, Joseph and the Holy Spirit.

 

Yes, a balance must be attained. But if you start screaming that your land is poorer than another and so on you will only achieve frustration. Mur made a bad decision (it was not his first and defo not his last) or in his sweet style he started something he didn't finish. Instead of GG it could have been MB. Or any other land.

 

And to summarize: all lands and leaders were greedy. It just happened that GG's resources were more usable than others. So don't point fingers. You might find them broken.

Edited July 29, 2014 by dst