Death System

[DARK DEMON]

I think the Death System needs a bit of polishing.

 

Currently it is boring, purposeless and the opposite of an interesting mode people would like to see it as. No, it should not be fun, but it should have a clear purpose and greater meaning than being used as a punishment/amusement in regards to the killer. For most people, death in MD has no more meaning than a bit of extra time needed to be spent for the revival, which I think is sad because it has the potential to be much more than that.

 

Anyone else thinks the same way? Please post your thoughts!

 

 

Personally I've received a few suggestions:

 

~ possible movement via heat veins

~ different graveyards for each land

~ dead-only content

~ ?

[DARK DEMON]

-heat loss/gain reversed

-heat required for actions and movement

-heat shrines (clickies) at graveyard(s) where people could "donate" heat to the dead (same system as donating heat to protectors, except that the "clicky" would be the shrine instead of the compass

-resource "offerings" to the dead, allowing them to initiate shrines (???)

-leashes would no longer work on the dead <--- because its always seemed illogical

-"body" would always remain at the spot where the person died

-"spirit" (aka the player) would be ported to the shrine each time they run out of heat; they can only get heat from donations at shrines

-revival can only take place at the location the person died, which means that considerable effort may be required to "move the spirit" from the shrine/graveyard to this location

-dying produces blood resource at the kill-site, just like fenths!

-dying also produces bones and skulls

-method of regeneration designed by Molquert must be solved from the dead-person's side(???)

Edited December 29, 2014 by DARK DEMON

[Vicious]

 

-leashes would no longer work on the dead <--- because its always seemed illogical

-"body" would always remain at the spot where the person died

 

The body could be moved with a leash but not the spirit?

[Sasha Lilias]

Ah! Now see this! THIS is the Demon I have wanted to see.

 

Ask about revival now and it would be my right hand, not the left.

 

Welcome back.

 

Anyway, on topic. Wonderful idea in my opinion. With the the new scripting tools this shouldn't be out of the question! I'm liking the idea for almost a separate game play when killed.

 

Kudos.

 

~Sasha

 

P.S 

 

The body could be moved with a leash but not the spirit?

 

 

Perhaps as the body would be a dead weight (pardon the pun  :P ) it could be dragged a scene closer each time. This would also then help to lower the casts of the currently almost pointless leashes!

Edited December 29, 2014 by Sasha Lilias

[Change]

-leashes would no longer work on the dead <--- because its always seemed illogical

-"body" would always remain at the spot where the person died

 

It's not illogical if the leash is also spiritual/is bound to the spirit.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Change

[DARK DEMON]

 

It's not illogical if the leash is also spiritual/is bound to the spirit.

 

The leash is a physical item, and the spirit is mostly referred to as "ghosts" :P

 

Suggestions-post-list edited

Edited December 29, 2014 by DARK DEMON

[lashtal]

Personally I've received a few suggestions:

 

~ dead-only content

 

This!

[Vicious]

Spirits are seperate to the body but can be linked.

Affinity - If someone is dead for a long time.. or completes tasks they gain affinity for either life or death. Life gains a little more VE while death loses a little. So far we have compared affinity levels to MP levels... Spells and other things change depending on if you are one with the spirits or the body. As a spirit you would gain another kind of heat. ghost abilities range from messing with the living (moving their spirit to confuse them) to moving around the world quickly. An idea is that while a person casting a death movelock would be able to block an exit with a shade or something, a person with a life movelock would be able to... lower AP from an exit to escape. Another example would be... Someone with death affinity would be able to dive into the spirit world and cover their steps using an illusion spell while someone with a life affinity would blaze brighter and leave a trail behind in the living world. Just ideas.

 

 

The spirit world could/would be a reflection of our world that has been frozen at a certain time... For example things would have changed... Ruins would be as they were before time destroyed them and bob would be in permenant bloom. Together someone with life affinity and someone with death affinity can erect shrines to which heat or spiritual energy can be donated to.

 

Rifts- Places where a high amount of spiritual/heat energy have been used and rifts between the worlds have opened. A living person can enter these to go into their spirit form, leaving their bodies behind, while a spirit can go into the world with heavy costs for travel and spellcasting. Rifts would be opened at certain locations like gazeebo's, shrines, altars and other places powered by either magic or belief. there would be a small rift at bob where spirits can be seen.

 

 

Affinity Scale -         0 Cursed, Infernal, Death     1 Dark, Evil, Wrath       2 Dead, Weak, Soulless        3 Neutral, Balanced, Unsure        

 

4 Alive, Weak, Soul         5 Awakened, Good, Compassion     6 Blessed, Divine, Life. 

 

 

Cursed and Sacred lands - Some places will be harder to cross depending on your affinity. Loreroot has a very minor life affinity but is mainly neutral. No mans land has a slight bonus to the death (not noticable though) as it is clear that there was once some of it. though since no land claims it as it's own it is neutral. Necrovion has a major death affinity, ghosts can pass into here in spirit form and manifest with more power there. People with life affinity dread the place and try to avoid it. Marind's bell leans towards life. The lands of the east are unknown to me. the MDA area has a decent life affinity. The underground is a dark place so those with a life affinity distrust it. 

 

Note: A corpse cannot have life affinity without aid from the living and a living person cannot have death affinity unless they perform certain rituals with the dead.

 

 

Research: Some research isn't available without being in the spirit or living world.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Vicious

[Grido]

Could always play it out like poltergeists. New ghosts can't do much, older ghosts can interact with things and mess with non-ghosts.

[Ungod]

-dying produces blood resource at the kill-site, just like fenths!

woah...this is interesting

[DARK DEMON]

Vici's death-life affinity suggestion is a great one that may be used to make the death system much more complex and an interesting side to MD, but I think such things need to wait till we've fixed the base mechanics :)

 

I'm glad people are participating!

 

 

Could always play it out like poltergeists. New ghosts can't do much, older ghosts can interact with things and mess with non-ghosts.

 

Hmm.... a few temporary fun spells you mean, periodically maybe after being dead for 3 days, then 6 days, then 10 days, etc? :P

 

 

woah...this is interesting

 

We needz blood extractors!

 

Though seriously, maybe this can start a new "alchemy" field in MD to make poisons or cures or healing potions or something :blink:

[Azrafar]

-heat loss/gain reversed

-heat required for actions and movement

-heat shrines (clickies) at graveyard(s) where people could "donate" heat to the dead (same system as donating heat to protectors, except that the "clicky" would be the shrine instead of the compass

-resource "offerings" to the dead, allowing them to initiate shrines (???)

-leashes would no longer work on the dead <--- because its always seemed illogical

-"body" would always remain at the spot where the person died

-"spirit" (aka the player) would be ported to the shrine each time they run out of heat; they can only get heat from donations at shrines

-revival can only take place at the location the person died, which means that considerable effort may be required to "move the spirit" from the shrine/graveyard to this location

-dying produces blood resource at the kill-site, just like fenths!

-dying also produces bones and skulls

-method of regeneration designed by Molquert must be solved from the dead-person's side(???)

First of all, good to see you back.

 

Second. Good ideas.

This death should be more like a limbo, where souls are stuck as ghosts. Also ther could be another level, the true "aftrlife". People could be "easily" pulled from limbo, but it would be very hard to escape "afterlife". Also ghosts could be brought back two ways. One way is the way suggsted, the other is a forcefull revival, that is independent of the ghosts effort to revive, requires the persons blood and is more harder to accomplish (probably a WP use). The one reviving would get a leash for the person he/she revived in the dark ritual, basicly binding the person to his/her person. If a ghosts fears the dark bonding it can escape to the "afterlife" and be safe (but harder to come back).

 

As for blood and alchemy. Another resource is good if there is a use implemented (like blood rituals). As for alchemy I found some items in Passage of War (since it was opened for the obelisk) that are under testing. Does anyone know if they work? It seems one of them is intended to be used for alchemy.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Azrafar

[Rophs]

It's possible to lose heat when walking through some areas, will the dead gain heat instead?

[Vicious]

It's possible to lose heat when walking through some areas, will the dead gain heat instead?

The dead could gain the heat that was lost :P

[DARK DEMON]

It's possible to lose heat when walking through some areas, will the dead gain heat instead?

 

-heat loss/gain reversed

 

Because death is the opposite of life :D

 

However, its still restricted because in order to move to those heat-giving areas, you may need heat from heat donations in the first place. Also, its capped at 4400, so its not like it'll last terribly long if you're idle/logged out. PLUS, the dead will still not be able to gain heat through fighting.

 

Some would say its still too easy, so maybe its time for killers to start planning and thinking where exactly they would kill their victims and ensure its difficult for the spirit to get back to that location... ;)

 

The only thing that would counter this is if the dead person has a leash, to move the body from the kill site to a much easier to access location. That would be the advantage of having a leash, I suppose.

[AmberRune]

On the subject of leashes/moving the dead: http://magicduel.com/page/Announcement/view/2512

[Vicious]

Well what about.. since it's the opposite.. ghosts gain power when standing still?

[Myth]

On the subject of leashes/moving the dead: http://magicduel.com/page/Announcement/view/2512

 

Aye, but this is probably meant as an almost complete rework of how death works. Wouldn't it be nice for people to actually work on getting a corpse to a cemetery instead of waiting for it to magically appear there? :P

Edited December 30, 2014 by Myth

[DARK DEMON]

On the subject of leashes/moving the dead: http://magicduel.com/page/Announcement/view/2512

 

Wow, so something similar has already been thought of? That's great XD

 

I don't get how these "graverobbers" would be able to obtain leashes, though...

 

Aye, but this is probably meant as an almost complete rework of how death works. Wouldn't it be nice for people to actually work on getting a corpse to a cemetery instead of waiting for it to magically appear there? :P

Yeap, but I think what Amber means is that corpses from the cemetery could be stolen, preventing it from reaching the kill site? Would be an interesting use for leashes.

Edited December 30, 2014 by DARK DEMON

[DARK DEMON]

*cough* May we get some opinion from the game admin/s as to how we should go about this in order to show enough data/support/ideas to consider implementation?

 

I am well aware that such things will not be top priority at all, but in my opinion (and I think the community's :) ), its something that should definitely be improved to add depth to the game.

Edited December 31, 2014 by DARK DEMON

[Muratus del Mur]

This is the sort of thing i expect from a dead person in md ..not crying and mega-frustration

I was killed myself and i gave it a good thought on how the death system could be improved..

 

i don't have time to read this topic to be honest, but i trust that really smart people will read it and present me some valuable conclusions

 after  i am done testing stuff i will return to the dead state (where i was left) and will try to find a way out, other than the current methods. I appreciate the current methods, but i also think this could benefit of some SERIOUS updates too.

 

Keep in mind that being dead should be a ___major___ handicap and a very annoying experience...however, it should not be a pointless one...as i fear it is one.

Whatever it will be discussed here, i expect the 'solution' to be hard, to require time ..or to offer an alternate experience. I am NOT lookign for a fast revival mechanism, but instead of a dead cult so to speak.

 

Once dead, you should be marked forever somehow, yet able to play if enough effort is put in for your revival.

 

keeping what i said in mind,,,, i wait eagerly for a creative solution.

[Menhir]

I thought about this seriously 2 years ago and in the end had an idea which would be something totally different. Thinking through it for some time made me realize it would need a huge efford to discuss and coding to be realized. So I didn`t went public with it. Now might be the best time to at least share it. The following represent the frame of the idea.

 

Once you´re attacked by an assassin or deadly sick or poisened you would be moved by the "game" into an inbetween state of "not living and not dead yet". My idea was to mirror the realm of MD with certain locations to be more accessible  than others. On the visual side the art should be altered in some way, blurry or similar as if you look through a thin curtain. Chat with the living should be limited but still possible and again in some locations easier than in others and in certain scenes not possible. This 1st state should be limited by time (some days or weeks) and you should be able to prevent the actual state of death by solving a chain of quests and challenges (e.g. could be fighting with an set of predefined creatures combined with a story or quest). If one is not able to complete the challenges with a certain percentage of success the move to stage 2 (death) should be started. In this 24 hours (real playtime!) scenes should be changing to an unclear vision with even less possible actions ingame. Once arrived in stage 2 (death) communication with the living should be limited to a minimum (maybe only to certain characters who are able to talk with those on the other side). But the scenes should be clear again. A different setting of actions should be possible here but all concentrated to work on a "rebirth". Interaction with other "dead" people should be really powerful and shorten the time one needs to go back to the "reality" of the realm. To define the challenges in the stage of death could be a very pleasant community creation process. Most important from my point of view are the following ideas:

 

- the stage of death should be filled with interesting possiblities but at the same time always filled the fear of the side effects of being dead

 

being dead could mean:
- draining of skills (loosing them slowing with percentage per hour real playtime)
- loosing the importance of a role (until vanishing completely)
- loosing items, resources (but only after a long time)

- and perma death after a very long time    

[DARK DEMON]

In the current game, killing is way too easy to make death a permanent or long-term penalty, in my opinion. Death should change you for when you return to life, not make you quit forever. If the handicaps had to be insanely huge, then people might survive death in MD the first time they're killed, but definitely not the second time. And then you have people including me who've died 4 times by now -_-

 

To stop communication etc, there's jail for that, not death. But I think, and so do others from what I've observed, that the death system should allow more interaction, and a different type of it.

 

Menhir, with all due respect, I'm not shunning your ideas or anything, but since this isn't a priority, any work imo should not be ultra difficult to code nor change every single thing. At the same time, "quality" matters too of course. But so does time and effort, and we only have one coder.

_______________________________________________________

 

Hiria has already started to draw the shrines, and the points in my first 2 posts were all discussed and listed down by many people. I think the feedback is positive enough for creative solutions to be drawn out from it :)

 

Currently according to the suggestion:

1) More restriction in a way (due to leashes not moving the player, only the body, and because the body would return to graveyards when the 4400 heat would run out, not at the end of the day)

2) Allows "plan-kills" rather than simply killing anywhere for the sake of killing

3) More realistic (eg: bones/skull/maybe blood produced at kill site)

 

However, please feel free to point out any flaws you may notice. 

 

For dead-only content, would anyone like to suggest ideas?

Edited January 1, 2015 by DARK DEMON

[Myth]

If they appear more difficult to implement from a coding perspective, the ideas are there for when there might be time for them. Some of the things Menhir posted seem, to some extent, similar to previous ideas. I like the way they come together.

 

Certainly won't turn death into a pleasant experience, since all your focus goes to making sure you're being revived, and not a lot of wrong moves would be tolerated, since that would most likely get you closer to the permanent death state. Time spent on MD would be a lot more valuable, so you wouldn't have the luxury of logging in just to chat with someone through messages - as every second spent in one of the death states would get you closer to the permanent one.

 

The blurred image effect can easily be added to any artwork, along with many other effects if need be, and the permanent death idea we've already seen as role play (Molquert) so it shouldn't be too tough to think of a way to make it work. Although, I'm slightly against the concept of permanent death. I don't recall there being anyone unable to die in MD - including Mur - so why should there be people unable to live?

 

What I'd like to see is how principles would help out in death. Perhaps, some secret combination of them, which you could only gain while dead, might allow you to imagine yourself back to life? I'm talking about a huge amount of principle stats needed, of course... months of it. And a way to obtain these stats unlike the current system, as you probably won't always find who to fight on the other side.

 

As for dead only content, the blurred images and mini-quests in order to get back to life seem to fit that category for now, along with a few of the previous ideas such as death only research, as well as what Grido said. :p

[Vicious]

This really wouldn't take months of coding.. most the ideas use already implemented things. Also I strongly disagree with Menhir about the last section but some of the other ideas are quite good, though discussed before