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Revamping LHO's

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[log=LHO discussion]

[19/04/15 19:02] Chewett:Another thing related to this, is actually revamping LHO 
[19/04/15 19:03] Chewett:I have been doing a large amount of work on this behind the scenes with Grido on this 
[19/04/15 19:03] Chewett:And as many of you will have seen. I made a number of topics 
[19/04/15 19:03] *Grido*:had issues with illus on mains as well, but can state again in full on there if it comes up 
[19/04/15 19:03] Chewett:The main summary is, new recruiting strategy, having some kind of manual for LHO's, and training them properly 
[19/04/15 19:04] Chewett:Does anyone have any comments, or questions on these things? 
[19/04/15 19:04] *Nimrodel*:Nope. 
[19/04/15 19:05] Jester:if I want to try out again should I just talk to Grido? 
[19/04/15 19:05] BFH the WHITE:i have some ideas 
[19/04/15 19:05] BFH the WHITE:but reading logs atm, sec 
[19/04/15 19:05] Chewett:This is mainly because LHO will be crucial to the new tutorial 
[19/04/15 19:05] BFH the WHITE:Dark Demon:Advertisment may not be as benefiting as it would be, say 1 year from now. 
[19/04/15 19:06] BFH the WHITE:advertisement is not effective until we fix tutorial and MD improves its capability of retaining players 
[19/04/15 19:06] *Grido*:Find an lho to mentor/supervise you first, part of the changes is moving that away from me 
[19/04/15 19:06] Chewett:And if we are not able to have a good working LHO, we will have major issues 
[19/04/15 19:06] *Sunfire*:there could be some sort of "internship", current LHO's safe the questions thet receive and then present them to the aspirant, who then answers them to the LHO 
[19/04/15 19:06] Jester:Oh Syri-chan... 
[19/04/15 19:07] *Sunfire*:lho still does live help 
[19/04/15 19:07] *Syrian*:hi! 
[19/04/15 19:07] BFH the WHITE:live help is a fake concept right now 
[19/04/15 19:07] BFH the WHITE:i think 
[19/04/15 19:07] *Sunfire*:and has a chance to see the problem solving possibilities of the aspirant 
[19/04/15 19:07] *Sunfire*:ofc it is, everybody is too proud to use that button unles there is no other way 
[19/04/15 19:08] BFH the WHITE:if an LHO receives a pm, he/she might not even notice it 
[19/04/15 19:08] Chewett:Proof sunfire? 
[19/04/15 19:08] *Nimrodel*:I am pro live help button too 
[19/04/15 19:08] BFH the WHITE:Chew, have you ever considered a live help chat system? 
[19/04/15 19:08] Jester:would it be possible to send LHO mail to another inbox? 
[19/04/15 19:08] *Sunfire*:im not saying to remove it, im just saying dislike asking help 
[19/04/15 19:08] *Nimrodel*:Rarely but occasionaly you get pms. 
[19/04/15 19:08] Jester:or that even, that sounds good 
[19/04/15 19:08] Chewett:Breaks one of the principles of MD, no chatrooms 
[19/04/15 19:09] Jester:boo, I love chatrooms 
[19/04/15 19:09] Rophs:Alliances get a chatroom 
[19/04/15 19:09] Chewett:What I meant sunfire, is that, Do you have any proof that players think that? Or is it just your opinion? 
[19/04/15 19:09] BFH the WHITE:we are already breaking MD's old principles by removing many of the filters 
[19/04/15 19:09] BFH the WHITE:the point is to improve, not to make same mistakes again 
[19/04/15 19:09] Jester:could do a trial version for a little and see if it helps enough? 
[19/04/15 19:09] Chewett:How do you imagine it will work BFH? 
[19/04/15 19:10] samon:I think help chat would make getting help a lot more accessible 
[19/04/15 19:10] *Grido*:jester,mutual inbox is an idea I already suggested,there were always kinks needed working out 
[19/04/15 19:10] *Sasha Lilias*:LHO's should have a "On duty" switch of some sort, so that messages would only be sent to them whilst "On duty". 
[19/04/15 19:10] BFH the WHITE:you know facebook chat right? 
[19/04/15 19:10] Chewett:Ofc 
[19/04/15 19:10] *Sunfire*:if you play a new game chew, do you play the tutorial through the end? 
[19/04/15 19:10] *Sasha Lilias*:Also, there was once a rota/timetable for LHO's as well. Not sure what happened to that? 
[19/04/15 19:10] BFH the WHITE:something like that linked to LHOs 
[19/04/15 19:11] Jester:ah ok grido 
[19/04/15 19:11] Chewett:Im concerned that an on duty thing would never be toggled and forgotten about 
[19/04/15 19:11] Chewett:Sasha 
[19/04/15 19:11] Chewett:Sunfire: yes, many online games are damned confusing nowadays 
[19/04/15 19:11] *Nimrodel*:timetables is hard to stick by Sasha. Many of us have jobs :P 
[19/04/15 19:12] Chewett:Or work unpredictable hours 
[19/04/15 19:12] *Grido*:rota went out of date shortly after each time I updated it 
[19/04/15 19:12] *Syrian*: (i cant have a rota, i sleep unpredictable hours
[19/04/15 19:12] BFH the WHITE:that's why chat is great! :D 
[19/04/15 19:13] Chewett:BFH why do you not have a simple jumping to their location instead? 
[19/04/15 19:13] BFH the WHITE:if nobody is available, system can switch to pms! ticket system! :D then first lho available takes care of whatever was submitted 
[19/04/15 19:13] BFH the WHITE:cause you dont want them to see things before time 
[19/04/15 19:13] Jester:oh, a jump would work, but what if multiple LHOs saw it? 
[19/04/15 19:13] *Sunfire*:that toggle option could work with auto toggle on when logging on, lho would net to manually switch off, perhaps switch off during idle could be good to 
[19/04/15 19:13] Chewett:Then you get multiple LHO's 
[19/04/15 19:13] *Nimrodel*:Yeah i guess. THat sounds better. A combined inbox for all lhos for LHO messages only. :) 
[19/04/15 19:13] Jester:suddenly a new player gets ambused by 7 LHOs >.> 
[19/04/15 19:13] BFH the WHITE:example, access LR, necro, etc 
[19/04/15 19:14] Chewett:So, I prototyped some combined inbox things for grido 
[19/04/15 19:14] Chewett:And never really got a "nice" answer of how he wanted to work, once I presented issues to him 
[19/04/15 19:14] Jester:BFH the jump would bring the LHO to the new player, not vice versa 
[19/04/15 19:14] Chewett:Jester^ 
[19/04/15 19:15] *Grido*:there were issues to prevent multiple lhos replying, making sure they actually got replied to and such 
[19/04/15 19:15] *Syrian*: (couldnt you use a form of lhochase? instead of jumplink?
[19/04/15 19:15] *Nimrodel*:or if the LHO were involved in some important discussion >> 
[19/04/15 19:15] Chewett:Thats what I meant when I said jumplink to be honest. 
[19/04/15 19:15] BFH the WHITE:that can work but meeh some issues 
[19/04/15 19:15] Chewett:Why some issues BFH? 
[19/04/15 19:15] *Nimrodel*:and they get pulled to a newbie 
[19/04/15 19:15] Chewett:I see that working, int he current framework, really well 
[19/04/15 19:16] BFH the WHITE:what if lho is afk, idle, completing a quest, using clickables, etc 
[19/04/15 19:16] :*Sasha Lilias* passed 7 Sided Stone Dice to Mallos 
[19/04/15 19:16] *Sunfire*:LHO decides to jump, not the newb 
[19/04/15 19:16] *Nimrodel*:or is participating in a trivia >> 
[19/04/15 19:16] *Syrian*: (chasetheyoungling or something, it would also be nice to not get pms when idle unless theres no other option
[19/04/15 19:17] *Nimrodel*:or in a secret meeting with their land leader 
[19/04/15 19:17] *Sasha Lilias*: [Forum link
[19/04/15 19:17] *Syrian*: (combined inbox seems a bit dodgy for reasons jester said, may people may answer ant the same time
[19/04/15 19:17] *Sasha Lilias*:Any edits needed/things I missed? 
[19/04/15 19:17] *Nimrodel*:stuff like that 
[19/04/15 19:17] Jester:maybe LHOs could be given some kind of compensation to make up for not being able to participate in quests like other players 
[19/04/15 19:17] Aeoshattr:I disagree with Jes there. 
[19/04/15 19:17] BFH the WHITE:you dont want to kill the fun for lhos 
[19/04/15 19:18] BFH the WHITE:they are also players 
[19/04/15 19:18] Jester:thats another topic, sorry 
[19/04/15 19:18] Jester:eh, I personally have way more fun helping new players than questing 
[19/04/15 19:18] Chewett:So a Player flags as needing help 
[19/04/15 19:18] *Grido*:cant compensate for every possible quest they may have wanted to partake in 
[19/04/15 19:18] Chewett:All LHO are told of this player 
[19/04/15 19:18] Jester:and they could still do some quests 
[19/04/15 19:18] Chewett:Once one person caasts the spell and jumps to him, the flag is turned off 
[19/04/15 19:18] Jester: (I meant overall compensation, not specifc, but nevermind, another topic
[19/04/15 19:18] Chewett:So LHO's know someone has atteneded to them 
[19/04/15 19:19] *Sasha Lilias*:Sounds like a good idea. 
[19/04/15 19:19] Jester:would it be possible to have it appear for one player at a time? 
[19/04/15 19:19] BFH the WHITE:and if no LHO is online, then switch to ticket system? 
[19/04/15 19:19] Chewett:Indeed 
[19/04/15 19:19] Jester:like 10 seconds for one, then another, then another 
[19/04/15 19:19] BFH the WHITE:that can work 
[19/04/15 19:19] Jester:because otherwise everyone will click it as soon as it appear 
[19/04/15 19:19] *Nimrodel*:Mok. 
[19/04/15 19:19] Jester:if they're paying attention. 
[19/04/15 19:19] Chewett:But we then hit the main issue of the whole ticket/pm system needs to be written 
[19/04/15 19:20] samon:Or make the link only work for the first to click it 
[19/04/15 19:20] BFH the WHITE:Player should also receive notifications? 
[19/04/15 19:20] Jester:oh, better idea samon 
[19/04/15 19:20] *Sunfire*:best to make the flagging autorefresh page or so, then the lho is aware 
[19/04/15 19:20] Jester:volunteers could join the ticket system too? 
[19/04/15 19:21] Jester:I'm sure plenty of other online, non-LHO players would be happy to help 
[19/04/15 19:21] BFH the WHITE:example: "Seven LHO were notified of your request for help. You should receive an answer "soon". 
[19/04/15 19:21] Jester:seperate them into two groups, those who will help guide new players and those who will help answer PMs when non are available 
[19/04/15 19:21] *Sasha Lilias*:You may as well get rid of LHO's :P 
[19/04/15 19:21] *Sasha Lilias*: (@Jester
[19/04/15 19:22] Jester: (no, because LHO will still guide the new players actively from PC instead of tutorial
[19/04/15 19:22] Miq:if you are going to code anything then just make a custom pm interface which everyone who must can see 
[19/04/15 19:23] Miq:and then have a button on every help request "i'm dealing with this" 
[19/04/15 19:23] BFH the WHITE: (Chewett: But we then hit the main issue of the whole ticket/pm system needs to be written -- If i am correct there are some open sourced systems for that out there
[19/04/15 19:23] Chewett: (BFH, integrating them into MD will be horrifying
[19/04/15 19:24] Chewett: (we are not integrating any other ticketing system into MD
[19/04/15 19:24] Rophs: (Make a "superlho" account that the buttons sends a PM to, then let the LHOs access its inbox
[19/04/15 19:25] *Grido*:already have the live help account 
[19/04/15 19:25] Mallos:Seems like the current system isnt that bad, what about idling LHOs? 
[19/04/15 19:26] BFH the WHITE:ok 15 minutes gone. Have to go back to work 
[19/04/15 19:26] BFH the WHITE:cya guys 
[19/04/15 19:26] Chewett:So, Again, if someone can make a post about the LHO changes, that would be great 
[19/04/15 19:26] Jester:bye BFH 
[19/04/15 19:27] Rophs:I could grab a log but it's not my day 
[19/04/15 19:27] Chewett:At this point, there is half an hour to the dancing contest, DD can run his event, im afk, Will be back after dancing to dicsuss this more :) 
[19/04/15 19:27] Jester:sounds good 
[19/04/15 19:27] Chewett:Later all 
[19/04/15 19:27] Jester:cya Chewett 
[19/04/15 19:27] nadrolski:medals! 
[19/04/15 19:27] *Sunfire*:bye chew 
[19/04/15 19:27] *Sasha Lilias*: (Chew, PM (:
[19/04/15 19:27] MaGoHi:later 
[19/04/15 19:27] samon:Bye! 
[19/04/15 19:27] Assira the Black:Take care Chewett. 
[19/04/15 19:27] *Grido*:I cant currently, fyi, but can it be made in the underused lho bit please? 
[19/04/15 19:27] Lintara:Later Chew! 
[19/04/15 19:27] *Sasha Lilias*:Byeee :) 
[19/04/15 19:28] *Sasha Lilias*:I've done on ein the LHO section Grido 
[19/04/15 19:28] Assira the Black:Hmm... 
[19/04/15 19:28] *Sasha Lilias*: [Forum link
[19/04/15 19:28] *Grido*:thanks, anyone participating in this conversation would be good for you to reply in some capacity plesse[/log]


Brief summary of discussion:

  • Aspiring LHO's should find a current LHO and use them as a mentor/ to supervise them.
  • LHO's provide real questions they have received as "training questions" for the ones they mentor/supervise.
  • Live Help needs udating and restructuring so that messages aren't sent to those that are idle.
  • Players can "flag" for help which will then notify all LHO's.
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  • 1 month later...

The live help problem has gone silent so i'll bump this. Below i have made personal opinion and summary of what i read from the log about others opinion. If i have made a false claim then say so and i'll fix it. 


Problem: Live help button just takes any online LHO, active or not, and sends problem to that LHO's personal PM's


possible solutions from the chat Sasha pasted:


1) Chatsystem (like dem facebooks)

     people like

     Chewett says it's against principles of MD

     I think that altho would be nice will still need additional system to deal with cases that are long or when no LHO is online


2) Shared mail/pm box

     people undecided

     Chewett has made some demos for Grido. Undefined problems, 

     I like this (goes with nr 4.) 


3) "On Duty" switch

      people undecided

      Chewett thinks people will forget to toggle it thus changing nothing

      I agree with Chew


4) Ticketing system 

     People undecided

     Chewett thinks that 3-party ticketing systems would be a pain to integrate

     I think it's same thing as nr 2


5)  Flag player as "need help" LHO sees it and can jump to that player

     People seem to like it

     Chewett likes it

     I see a problem that by the time an LHO reacts the player has gone idle and then how do you even get to know what was the question?



I see two viable ideas atm. Shared inbox and the jumping system. 


Anyone has any more ideas? 

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@2 - the only issue I see with this is player being potentially assaulted by multiple responses.


I don't know if this can work as a suggestion, but I'm throwing it out there.


- player sends message via LHO button

- message reaches shared inbox

- multiple LHOs access the message

- since it's doubtful multiple LHOs will also reply at the same time (click "send" at the exact same second) add a filter to warn LHOs that the message has already been replied to:

--- LHO1 replies at 13:57

--- LHO2 attempts to reply at 13:58 but receives a warning message upon clicking "send" stating that the message has been replied to

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Tu further the idea. I'm aware that this might cause issues when/if there will be more LHOs around, in the sense that many might lose time writing away the answer to the problem in the PM.


As a solution to this, combine this system a very short reply and with the "teleport to player in need" option. Miq sees these as viable ideas; I do also, when combined.


So, to this


- player sends message via LHO button

- message reaches shared inbox

- multiple LHOs access the message

- since it's doubtful multiple LHOs will also reply at the same time (click "send" at the exact same second) add a filter to warn LHOs that the message has already been replied to:

--- LHO1 replies at 13:57

--- LHO2 attempts to reply at 13:58 but receives a warning message upon clicking "send" stating that the message has been replied to


add the following:


--- reply comes in the form of a short message, something along the lines of: "Hello, X. I'll be right with you so we can sort this out."


At this point, 2 options become available:


- LHO teleports to player and continues discussion;

- message leaves shared inbox, giving anyone else attempting to respond to it the warning mentioned above; message becomes direct PM of the LHO who replied, allowing him to detail the short reply he/she gave, in case teleporting to player isn't an option at that moment.

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I see it like this: LHO messagebox has two tabs general and personal


New issue will fall into the general box and any LHO can move it to his/her personal tab. At that point no other LHO can see it.

Messages can not be replied from the general tab (aka they must be moved before).



Edited by Miq
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  • Root Admin

Was it maybe in some hidden LHO forum?

Potentially, I only mention it since I believe Grido gave his view on a number of things we discussed previously. Grido never found a solution he was happy me implementing as an improvement
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2 was pretty much the method I was happiest with, as you're currently discussing it's a matter of ensuring multiple people aren't replying. Less the LHO themselves moving any message though - presumably you'd do that only after you'd replied.


If it shifts automatically when the message is opened, then if the one who opens it then has issues replying, the new player is left waiting

If it shifts any time after the message starts getting written, then someone else may have opened it up.


Some sort of notification saying someone else had it open would work, but then you fall back to the previous point unless whoever sees has it open then double checks with them.




1 I'm against for the same reasons as Chew, it's not MD

5 you have the issue of what requirements are met to trigger the flag on the new player needing help

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In all honesty, i'm not inclined to think that if an LHO manuali moves a message for himself to process he then will not reply it.


You can't really protect against maliciousness. 

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