Tokens

[awiiya]

Hello.

I was thinking about tokens, and wondering what other people thought about them. As for myself, I don't mind them that much, but I think they unbalance the game pretty severely, and know a few others that would agree with that.

So, what do you think of tokens?

Awi

Edited July 15, 2009 by awiiya

[Udgard]

I like them, but not the way they are now. As far as I can see, it changes the game too much that people now are only depending on two asepcts: enough attack to 1-hit anything, and a race for the highest initiative. It also completely unbalances a token user vs non-token user battles. While I agree that tokens should give an advantage, and the idea of token itself is good, but their current state is not the best for the game, and severely unbalances them.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

With Claw III you don't even need to worry about your initiative stat.

[Burns]

they are totally overpowered, but i guess Mur didn't see that coming... seems he had no idea what principle-values we could achieve :/

i think they need to be balanced amongst themselves...
you can't really win against a token rit when you are not using tokens yourself anyway, just like you can't win against a bunch of rusties without having a rusty or two yourself...
so, imo, tokens would need to give not onyl insane attacks, but also insane defences to balance that, like one otken already does...

and they need to be more balanced, right now, there is one token which makes any creature absolutely invincible, even to other tokens, and that can definitely not be the intention...
(no, it's not the goddamn claw 3, that token is only good for init...)

[Death Bell]

hehe i knw that token am trying to get it

[Liberty4life]

yea but it all can mean nothing to you if ya dont have right principal combinations

[Nex]

i share the general opinion about tokens. while i like the idea of tokens a lot, i think the values need tweaking. reducing the ratio at which they give stats, while a good idea, drives the rally for the highest principles ad infinitum. diminishing returns* could slow it down and/or a cap for maximal boni could stop it.

*like: 1/3 statbonus per principle ratio for the first 100 principle points, 1/5 ratio from 101-1000, 1/10 for 1001-5000, 1/50 for 5001+

Edited July 15, 2009 by Nex

[awiiya]

Like a logarithmic curve, Nex? That would actually work very well.

Well, it looks like everyone is strongly saying that the token are overpowered (except for one person, who said it was underpowered... just curious, who was that?)

So, what are ways to nerf them? We have Nex's idea of reducing what they give the more principle points there are.

Awi

[Chewett]

i think Rexs idea is the only way to go, but it needs more reductions, they should make it harder to win but then again some stragities should be able to kill them

or perhaps add some weaknesses into them

So as that they do help but will still be able to be killed by somone who does not have tokens

[Guybrush Threepwood]

One possibility is making the principals bonus to things like attack not based off of the person's principals, but the principals that would be given to the critter if they were split like stats are in battle. ie. If you use 6 critters in a ritual and have 1800 Light, then each critter with a claw II would gain 100 attack (assuming light was your highest of the three principals). The other possibility is to limit the bonuses such tokens give as has been discussed. Then the question becomes is it so much easier to get principals three times faster than attack? Maybe it is still. Depends on who you know really.

I'm a fan of the tokens that give a percent bonus, they seem relatively balancedish. I'm not very deep in the token shop though, and have only seen claw Is and claw IIs along with bloods Is and IIIs.

[juntaozhu15]

I think the tokens should just have a hard cap (something like 500 attack and def and 50-100 for regen, over 100 is kinda useless anyways, and maybe as low as 15 or 20 for initiative since it is relatively hard to gain)

A logarithmic curve could work also depending on how its implemented and how steep the curve was

That way stats would still matter and it would not be a race to see who can exp(principle)farm the best

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Here's a thought, we keep calling tokens game breaking, but what does that mean exactly? Tokens have indeed changed the way people train, and the way the battles go, but is that game breaking? Things are different, and I guess most of us would agree worse, but I'm not sure we're all on the same page about why.

Is it because tokens are so powerful that you can't compete without them? If that's all then the issue must be in part that you feel some have better access to tokens than others, or that it's somehow not equal chance to everyone to get them.

Is it that tokens completely change the battles and make strategy a thing of the past?

Is it that principals are now more important to train than stats? The training system has changed?

Is it that one might be screwed over by there principal choices which are supposed to be only a personal reflection?

I think finding out exactly what people think the problem is (probably a mixture for many) will help us come up with the best fix. Of course it's entirely up to Mur.

[Udgard]

"Is it that tokens completely change the battles and make strategy a thing of the past?"

Somehow, yes. Back in the time, even a strong player can be defeated with a correct counter ritual. Those that cannot be defeated with average stats and a correct counter ritual are those who have trained their stats realllyyy high for a long time. Nowadays, no matter what ritual you use, you can't defeat a half-decent token user without using token yourself. And even with using tokens to counter, it all goes back to who has the highest initiative and enough attack to 1-hit (init and atk mostly coming from tokens as well..), thus making rituals used pretty much of little impact to the outcome of the battle.

[awiiya]

What udgard said is what I agree with.

It doesn't come down to strategy, and for some tokens there are absolutely no counter rituals.

Another solution: maybe the Tormented Soul can be upgraded so that its aura does more, and thus be able to actually steal a respectable portion of the stats so as to affect the ritual? Currently, the auras are too weak.

Awi

[dst]

I totally agree: with the tokens in place the beauty of strategizeing has been lost. I personally don't feel the thrill anymore when I am attacking.
I would suggest doing something else: to be able to activate the tokens, you would have to have at least 2 principles out of 3 (not 1 like it's not) or even all 3 of them.
Claw 2 was changed a bit but it did not make much of a difference.
You want attack, def and such...train! Not just buy some tokens.
Also in my opinion tokens just made the other stats obsolete. With the right combination you almost need none of them.
So I say a big NO to tokens right now. What started as an astonishing idea ended up as a major frustration to most of the players and that is a shame.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

[quote name='dst' date='16 July 2009 - 12:17 AM' timestamp='1247721421' post='37192']
to be able to activate the tokens, you would have to have at least 2 principles out of 3 (not 1 like it's not) or even all 3 of them.
[/quote]
So that some fortunate few would be invincible. While I agree that I don't like the fact that no strategy is needed, I also don't like that the choice of principals one has affects one's possible achievements in the game. They are supposed to reflect your personal choices. Now I personally did pretty well with respect to tokens and my principal choices, but I still don't like the idea.

Anywho, sounds like you also have an issue with principals being easier trained than stats. Principals require exp, which require fighting. It doesn't bother me so much that your principals should matter as much as your stats in a battle.

[awiiya]

The problem with exp is that you can gain a MASSIVE amount in a very short period of time. With the help of Jester or Cless you could have thousands of principle points in a week.

With stat farming it took a long time and a lot of dedication, because the stat gains were so low.

Awi

[phantasm]

I agree that it takes out most of the strategy in the game. You have drachorns with claw II or claw III on em and they pretty much take out anything in the first round without the birds even getting a chance to freeze. Not as much an issue at MP4 but for any MP5 under 300 days it makes it fairly well impossible to win any duel. Being a person who has lost over 250 battle in 30 days I know.

edit* same goes for Chaos archers.

Edited July 16, 2009 by phantasm

[No one]

I hate tokens too.

Another side-effect which was not mentioned (and for some is good) is that a quick kill (in round 0) will not produce a victory, and thus one strong player can remain balanced for very long time giving tons of loses.

Anyway, lets hope that the small players will be stronger then us to endure so many loses.
( i know I don't like it)

[Jester]

[quote name='awiiya' date='16 July 2009 - 12:14 AM' timestamp='1247724846' post='37204']
The problem with exp is that you can gain a MASSIVE amount in a very short period of time. With the help of Jester or Cless you could have thousands of principle points in a week.

With stat farming it took a long time and a lot of dedication, because the stat gains were so low.

Awi
[/quote]


A week? Try an hour.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

An hour Jester? Isn't that a little over confident, even for you? I'd bet you can't give me thousands in principals in an hour. *crosses fingers for luck*

And I take back my previous statement about the percent boosters seeing as I just found out they don't actually do anything. It only boosts the stats of the critters and not that of your influence? That's not useful at all. And out of curiosity, is that the way they're supposed to work? I'm sure everyone else has known this for quite some time, but I'm not very observant.

[Sparrhawk]

My 2c

I disike tokens like alot of other people they are overpowering etc etc, and I dont like that if i want to compete and be strong i must buy a whole bunch of tokens and if i want them perfectly i must trade creatures to an alt one at a time and get what i want trade back then level the creature back up again. I think it would be good if tokens where one per creature max and even have them randomize whome there on daily that would be interesting. or perhaps have a have a rare creature with a token freeze aura something that negates all tokens in battle. Im not sure but I do hope that something can be changed about them because there just not working they are way overpowered and weakeneing them isnt going to do alot unless a cap is put on them because people will just grind principles.

[Mya Celestia]

There is also the situation of people who can only aquire tokens through free credits. The cost to aquire tokens can get expensive. In the mean time, the win/loss ratio goes crazy because of token rits. A 6 drach rit was already painful, but a tokened 6 drach rit is a slaughter.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

I do pretty well with my free credits, and I haven't even cheated by getting alts to land the tokens on the critters I want. So I guess I don't consider the money aspect to be too much an issue. The fact that it does encourage cheating is an issue in my mind though...

[Death Bell]

can't they just change the rusty to boost any other creature rather that its own kind of rust gold.. For i just spend alot of $$ on tokens.. and i dont want it to go to waste.