Diposing Yrthilian As King Of Golemus Golemicarum

[Metal Bunny]

To clarify, I remained hidden in particular to see what the vote would look like in a more pure basis.
I wanted to see how people would vote when it would come down to just the "de-throning or non de-throning" of yrthilian.
I in particular did not want to see a result that would be based on a "yrthilian vs. metal bunny" poll.
I have the best of intentions for GG and so does yrthilian, we just differ entirely on how to do it.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

I would like to again point out that Grido had no appropriate means by which to overtake the Sentinels. Had he known someone on the inside who could invite him and take over by achieving more loyalty, that would be acceptable. Using a glitch to dis-ban an alliance though... Also, I would like to reiterate that it wouldn't have changed anything if Grido had gotten rid of the Sentinels alliance...

[Pipstickz]

How about this: Does GG really need a king? Marind Bell doesn't have a king. Loreroot has a Council. Necrovion, a royal family, with no one ruler. All of them seem to do quite well.

[pamplemousse]

[quote name='Nex' date='27 September 2009 - 03:25 PM' timestamp='1254079516' post='42997']
would it have been fine if he hadn't cared for friendship, but only for the good name of the land he serves? while it IS the kings prerogative to listen to, or not listen to his advisors, even second-in-commands or co-rulers, it does seem questionable to exile a commited and loyal advisor because he didn't execute a plan he saw as conflicting with the best interests of golemus AND his personal beliefs.if an advisor has to fear the reaction of the king, his advise will become useless
[/quote]

I could not agree more, Nex.

Yrthilian, you villify someone for having a conscience, for not wanting to harm a friendship, that shows your true mettle.

As for you being removed as King, well, hasn't it already happened in the hearts and minds of the public, as well as your own? You stated to me, in a PM (in game)when I asked you if I could still visit Golemus, and the Beach specifically, that "I am far to week to intefer in anything anyones wants to do." Perhaps born out of frustration or a wearyness regarding these events or just a weak will, I do not know.

Golemus deserves better than any those things, Yrthilian. Step down or be forced out. Do not let lands you once cared for languish in selfish hands. Grido shows more care for Golemus then you do. In calling for your resignation, Grido has put himself in the line of fire (something a leader should be willing to do) and in this one perilous act, he proved himself more worthy to call Golemus his land then you.

To be clear, I don't think [b]anyone [/b]should be King. I think that titles such as these breed nothing but vainglorious, impotent leaders who remain out of touch with their "subjects".

[cryxus]

Pample, just for clarifications, not saying that what grido did didnt show gall, but I think that yrth had already done his worst, I doubt there were any punches pulled when it came to his being banned from GG, so really I feel MB is putting much more on the line. Does that make Grido any less qualified to lead? no. It seems to me, however, that he is already backing MB in his bid for canidacy, but lets not make actions seem more glorious than they are, Grido was pissed, justifiably so, and he felt there was need for retaliation, in my eyes it was no hero's call, though Grido has done plenty of worthy deeds in my eyes for a bid at canidacy as well, though I would hate to see him stretched too thin to perform any other duties he has.

[Grido]

Let me restate something, i do not wish to be king, i would not be capable of it at certain times, and yes, i also have other duties i must attend to. The me putting myself on the line is putting myself publicly in the light of what this thread stands for, i stood up and objected where others who have now also come forward and sided with me, did not. I believe that is what Pample refers to.

Also, i would back the most suitable candidate for rule, if someone better suited than MB came forward then i would support them instead, and i am sure he would understand it, this is however not the place to discuss a future ruler when there is still the old one in place. The topic is to remove Yrth, not to install another leader just yet.

I had seen the other reasons before, but what Yrth did to me by exiling was the thing that broke the camels back (or however the phrase is).

[pamplemousse]

Cryxus, just for clarification:

[quote name='pamplemousse' date='27 September 2009 - 10:42 PM' timestamp='1254105777' post='43051']
To be clear, I don't think [b]anyone [/b]should be King. I think that titles such as these breed nothing but vainglorious, impotent leaders who remain out of touch with their "subjects".
[/quote]

[cryxus]

Pample, for clarification I never said I wanted a king either... I merely want what is best for the land. If people think MB is best suited to be ruler, so be it, if it's someone else, so be it, if it's nobody, then so be it... The people of Golemus, however, should be united to protect, and, dare i say, better our land.

Edited September 28, 2009 by cryxus

[Udgard]

RL friendship? In-game friendship? Really, apart from those who already knew each other from before they played the game, all RL friendship here started from in-game friendship, don't they? It's an international game, even for those from the same country, how many people here already knew each other before they played here? In MD, most RL friendship is started by in-game friendship, so RL friendship being OOC is soemthing I can't really understand. Of course there are exceptions, but how many people here know each other before they played? 1%of the players? 0.05% of the players? And even for people who knew each other outside the game, do you play enemies in-game? I can say for sure that most characters will be in-game friends as well.

[Lifeline]

correct me if i am wrong please. yrth is the king of golemus and that implies a monarchy. nobody complained about it being a monarchy. so i guess everybody is fine with a monarchy and the rules a monarchy has. i must admit that i know little about how gg was run but all i heard suggested a normal monarchy.
if ur second in command doesnt support the monarchy and just refuses to help his king to whom he should be loyal its perfectly normal to strip him of his powers. that is how monarchies are run. in a monarchy the kings decision is final and all his men have to follow that decision. if they dont they must expect the king to remove their position.
i am sorry grido nothing against u but if i dont misunderstand how golemus was run this is how i see it. and monarchies have strict rules and its no option to simply stay neutral especially not for a second in command.

[Metal Bunny]

Inside a monarchy, a king supposedly holds all the power. That's what he thinks and if he claims divine mandate, that is what the majority of the people thinks.
But that is so very wrong. The balance of power is just that, it needs a counterweight.
History speaks unkindly about kings and emperors who treat their counterweights, such as the people or skilled and trusted advisors, in equal unkindness.
Just ask Nero and his successor (not counting the couple of temporary ones, I'm talking about Vespasianus).

A system could be created to brainwash a people in its entirety so greatly, indeed that they would fall victim more easily to a big lie than a small one, that inside the system, the supreme ruler would go on unquestioned and it's victims ridiculed.
Authoritarian systems are such systems and monarchies are authoritarian systems. (not counting the current version of parliamentarian monarchies).

But when the ruler does something that the people can no longer swallow or endure, they lash out in equal force towards the ruler.
Indeed, the greater the grievance, the greater the resistance.

So yes, you are wrong lifeline, because while it is a monarchy, it doesn't mean there have never been any complaints nor that they shouldn't be allowed to come out. And while it is a monarchy, a king has to think very carefully what he does to his subordinates.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Metal Bunny

[Grido]

i am not going to go into the details of what a king can or cannot do, but i will point out the title of the poll, to DEPOSE him

Depose is to remove someone from power without killing them.

A king does not control his population, they choose to follow him unless they have no choice, i am not stating he cannot do what he did to me, because as king he had every right to do whatever he likes to his people, until that is, they rebel, like they are now.

[Lifeline]

of course. my point is:
if a member of the monarchy goes against the ruler he has to expect his position to be removed. grido was part of it and accepted his king and the rules of a monarchy i suppose. so if he wants a new king him being removed from his former posItion doesnt help in the argumentaion. he can say the king turned into a tyrant and whatever else and start a revolution. but he cant hold against the king of a monarchy the removal of people from their spots that lost the kings trust.

[cryxus]

Actually the king must be removed during, or prior to a new leader being seated... it would be awkward having 2 kings of GG or something of the sort. Who is to say a king can't be removed? I suppose one could be king of nothing, and nobody, but that's hardly a king.

Again, I'm not for any side in this debate, but if the people do not follow their king, and do as they please without regard to him it can hardly be said he is king, save for in title alone.

[teufelhunden]

I am a new comer to this land but i have been many things in many places before now. If you know where my name comes from then you know i am a warrior. The name Hell hounds was bestowed upon a group of warriors in a great war by their enemy, it was a title of respect and fear. I can see both sides of this issue; one person was told to due something by their leader and they refused( for whatever reason). The other side is that they told a subordanite to do something and said person did not. Now in the warrior culture i was part of when you are given an order to do something you obey it, It does not matter what that order is. This is a burden as well as freedom. The burden is that you can not think for yourself, and if you do then it had better be right. The freedom is that you dont have to think, you just do what your told. When you swear feality to a king then that is a big deal, if you are the second in command then that is a massive responsibility, you must help your king and guide them. If the king chooses not to listen then you HAVE to follow what they say, that is why they are king. By choosing not to follow a direct order in a time of war you disrespected your king and chose to aid the enemy. The king leans on his second in command for any number of things and has to know they can count on them so by choosing to not listen and obey you dealt your king a huge blow, both to his pride and to his cause. I think the king was right to exile you Grido.
This is not real world/real life. It is a game and if you are going to play the game then you must play it right.

[Burns]

but completely aside of whether he was right to chuck Grido out, or Grido was right to not play against his personal role, and regardless of the light this stunt sheds on both of them, Grido has lost a lot there, and now he's truely free to rebel against the king if he feels like, and no matter if Yrth actions were justified or not, Grido has every right to start a revolt whenever he feels like, and so far, i have not seen Yrthilian able to beat him down on what he's doing...

as to the topic at hand, i'm pretty indifferent about it, Yrth did a good job on that king business in times of peace, and took a lot of steps i personally couldn't agree with in times of tension, though they didn't seem to harm Golemus, either, soo... *shrugs*
I don't know if his role would suffer from losing the crown, and i don't know if the crown would suffer from losing his face/getting lost at all and being replaced by a sword similar to Woody's leadership, and i've yet to see pro and con-arguments on this topic...

and as you all love to stress the 'all is fair'-point, i don't think that's the case for a Golemian knight, the Sentinels are the ones who go to any lenghts and use any means -.- (says one who is known to do a lot to achieve his ends)

[teufelhunden]

You are right, now that grido has been exilded he can do whatever he feels is his right,

[Watcher]

[quote name='teufelhunden' date='30 September 2009 - 03:41 AM' timestamp='1254296476' post='43211']
You are right, now that grido has been exilded he can do whatever he feels is his right,
[/quote]
Real men and women never wait until they have been punished to do the "right thing."

[Grido]

it was not waiting till i was punished that did it, but the punishment, how to phrase....opened my eyes? to what he has done

[Yrthilian]

Well i guess it is time.

So now it look like it has officaly been asked
and that a vote is going to happen. I beleve
that thoes of you that were trully unhappy with how i did thing
have the change to remove me.

I will not wimper or cry about who did what as i have no intencion
on making anyone pick sides in this. If you feel that strongly about
my actions then i guess you will make the choice you feel it right.

I just hope there are enough of you who are loyal to the land and to GG
to choose the right path. If i am removed by the vote then of corse this
will happen. If i am not then i will know truly the people that were and
always are loyal to the Land the the allaince.

I fear most have already made there choices and have already been convinced
by the other side. If this is the case then i am truly doomed and can see
that I have done wrong by all. This i will take with me and learn from it.
For it i didnt then i would not be who i am.

So i beleve the plan was to have this vote done while i am not around and there for
happen again when i am not around to defend myself. So that is now twice this has been
arranged. But still if it was me then of corse i am a tryant and shpuld be punished.

All i can say now is i had a great time helping thoes that i have helped and i enjoyed
doing it. If i have not been kind or helpfull to you before i am sorry for that. I hope
to still be able to help in other events or with papers or ideas.

I will stop or it will look like i am asking for people to take sides.
This is your choice and what ever it is i will take gracefully.

Thank you for your time
Yrthilian

[Mcvitie]

I find both Yrth AND grido as friends so in a way this is hard.I believe what he did was right in ways and wrrong in other ways.
I believe we should not be having a vote on disposing of Yrth as king ,for he is doing a great job at his role, but a vote on wether to keep Grido in the alliance.Maybe not second of command but just in the alliance.
@Grido: I see your reasons for what you did(didn't) do.
@Yrth: I see your reasons also but I think we should allow Grido back into the alliance =)

Mcvitie

[Shadowseeker]

Er...

What you suggest pretty much implies ignoring the powers of yrth, you know..he issued a royal decree (as disputed that royalty is right now, it's still royalty).

And he even formally announced it. Do you think a king should be that light on his words?

[Yrthilian]

[quote name='Shadowseeker' date='30 September 2009 - 07:55 PM' timestamp='1254336912' post='43253']
Er...

What you suggest pretty much implies ignoring the powers of yrth, you know..he issued a royal decree (as disputed that royalty is right now, it's still royalty).

And he even formally announced it. Do you think a king should be that light on his words?
[/quote]

Shadowseejer that is for you to decide.
what ever way you feel you want.

[Grido]

Yes, I have sent the petition to Mur to have Yrthilian deposed as king, the document will be made public (by him presumably), and there will be a vote on the matter, this will not happen before the 2nd October.

[quote]I just hope there are enough of you who are loyal to the land and to GG
to choose the right path. If i am removed by the vote then of corse this
will happen. If i am not then i will know truly the people that were and
always are loyal to the Land the the allaince.[/quote]
I am loyal to the land, you have brought much pain upon it, which is why i do this, for the land.

[quote]So i beleve the plan was to have this vote done while i am not around and there for
happen again when i am not around to defend myself. So that is now twice this has been
arranged. But still if it was me then of corse i am a tryant and shpuld be punished.[/quote]
I would like to clarify that i did ask, and hoped, that this be done before you left, aparently it cant happen before the 2nd though, which is a shame, i wanted you present when the voting was happening so you would have a chance to defend your actions.

[Yrthilian]

[quote name='Grido' date='30 September 2009 - 08:04 PM' timestamp='1254337478' post='43255']
Yes, I have sent the petition to Mur to have Yrthilian deposed as king, the document will be made public (by him presumably), and there will be a vote on the matter, this will not happen before the 2nd October.


I am loyal to the land, you have brought much pain upon it, which is why i do this, for the land.


I would like to clarify that i did ask, and hoped, that this be done before you left, aparently it cant happen before the 2nd though, which is a shame, i wanted you present when the voting was happening so you would have a chance to defend your actions.
[/quote]

Fair anough i understand the position you are in.
but i cannot take all the blaim for this pain you accuse me of.
But i guess as king i have to. So be it i will take it as it come.
I also understand this will be done while i am not here.

So if i loose congratulations to you
If i win then i will be happy for i know then
I have done something right