4 Wp Creature

[Udgard]

Before moving on to the next step on a creature (you know what it is), I would like to ask the community's opinion, just to be sure =)
What do you think of a 4 WP (cost) creature, disregarding whether it is strong enough or not to be worth 4 WP (strength can always be adjusted later). The underlying question is whether a creature with such requirements will be considered another long-term goal that can be aimed for (a good thing), or just simple lunacy/idiotic idea (bad thing).
For consideration, we already have a creature that costs somewhere near 4 WP, the wind dragon. Obtaining one requires the sacrifice of a GG drachorn, which some people will gladly trade one or two WP for one egg, plus doing some quests that could be viewed as a 1 WP quest. So we already have a creature theoretically near that cost, but in reality getting winds doesn't involve any WP at all.
What would you think of a creature that does cost 4 WP to obtain and max?

[Chewett]

[quote name='Udgard' date='02 December 2009 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1259773899' post='48915']
For consideration, we already have a creature that costs somewhere near 4 WP, the wind dragon. Obtaining one requires the sacrifice of a GG drachorn, which some people will gladly trade one or two WP for one egg, plus doing some quests that could be viewed as a 1 WP quest. So we already have a creature theoretically near that cost, but in reality getting winds doesn't involve any WP at all.
What would you think of a creature that does cost 4 WP to obtain and max?
[/quote]

Windy is theoritcally near that cost, but its not really, since it can be obtained with none.

so really although its the most expensive creature, its not worth 4 WP, you just need to trade around for a GG then do a quest

[Grido]

i think 4wp is quite high, and that increasing strength to compensate is a bad idea, it'll mean that the players who've been around a while (and therefore have 4wps) will kill other people too easy if you've increased the strength of it

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Udgard' date='02 December 2009 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1259773899' post='48915']Obtaining one requires the sacrifice of a GG drachorn, which some people will gladly trade one or two WP for one egg, [/quote]
I thought selling WP was illegal?

Imo a 4 WP creature is only cool if it looks hot but is totally useless. It's like saying "I blew 4 WP on this but that's because I am awesome enough to afford it." If it is really useful, more people will buy it, making it less unique (imo wishes are supposed to be unique, although automation somewhat ruins that idea) and also unbalancing (not that i battle a lot).
Plus it would force MB to gather enough WP to buy it, lest he fails to prove his awesomeness. A just reward for all that PL spam

[Fenrir Greycloth]

I dislike this idea. We do not need "stronger" creatures. But creatures with varieties in their attack/defend/powers. Right now, there are four creatures seen in every ritual. Drachorns, Chaos Archers, and Grasans.

The rest are not strong enough to fight with.

[awiiya]

Whoah, 4 WP? That's intense and unfair, mainly because to get 4 WP is difficult. 2 is a more reasonable cost.

Awi

[Malaikat Maut]

[quote name='awiiya' date='02 December 2009 - 01:15 PM' timestamp='1259777755' post='48927']
Whoah, 4 WP? That's intense and unfair, mainly because to get 4 WP is difficult. 2 is a more reasonable cost.

Awi
[/quote]
I have 3 with little over 100 active days, and I haven't completed the Broken Pattern Puzzle.

[dst]

@Malaikat Maut: and I have 24 with almost 600 active days. So my ratio is better. But that is not the point. If I am not mistaken you got the WPs by solving essay related quests. Few people actually do that. Cause imo they suck big time. So you are one of the lucky ones that do what they love: writing essays. But for others, to get just 1 WP is really tough. So 4 WPs for a crit is really too much. Sometimes you need to work maybe 1 or 2 months to get just 1.

And there is the other issue:if the stakes are high enough WPs might be trade/sold/etc. I don't want to see that.

[Peace]

I would like all and mostly the vets to remember how rare it was for a wind drachorn to be obtained. And still is. The same goes with the Golemus drachorn. Considering the fact that there are like 10(?) wind drachorns given in the game either cause of a quest, or reward from a contest. I am into trying to find any ways to get something, but having things handed to you in a silver platter is not my way. And some things should be made hard to get, regardless power in my opinion. It is what they represent that makes it have a higher price. Braiton is rarely on, RJ is no longer the Drachron Master. How are suppose to get these creatures then? Only by waiting when it is the next contest and get it (if lucky or -as it works lately- by having the fastest connection, giving you the ability to write your answers without lagging) by winning one of them?

Just my opinion, that is.

[juntaozhu15]

I have over 450 active days and I have never owned a wp on any account

but back on topic, I think a 4 wp creature shouldn't be scaled power-wise, since then everyone with 4 wp will buy it instead of the other offerings in the wp shop (it should still be useful though, somewhere along the lines of angien/bird in terms of usefulness) with some unique ability that is situational, the creature should also look amazing and be completely unique (not just a colored/mutated version of any current creature, or even limit it to the first 10 buyer)

[Chewett]

[quote name='Malaikat Maut' date='02 December 2009 - 06:35 PM' timestamp='1259778906' post='48934']
I have 3 with little over 100 active days, and I haven't completed the Broken Pattern Puzzle.
[/quote]


[quote name='dst' date='02 December 2009 - 06:49 PM' timestamp='1259779775' post='48940']
@Malaikat Maut: and I have 24 with almost 600 active days. So my ratio is better. But that is not the point. If I am not mistaken you got the WPs by solving essay related quests. Few people actually do that. Cause imo they suck big time. So you are one of the lucky ones that do what they love: writing essays. But for others, to get just 1 WP is really tough. So 4 WPs for a crit is really too much. Sometimes you need to work maybe 1 or 2 months to get just 1.

And there is the other issue:if the stakes are high enough WPs might be trade/sold/etc. I don't want to see that.
[/quote]

1 wish point with 700+ active days! i win!

[Pipstickz]

I've had two WP with about 450 days x3

Oh right, as for on-topicness: I think 4 WP may be a bit much, but then again, you never know what'll happen in the future. Wishpoints could become common currency, and this creature could become common with pretty much everyone, just like the drach is now.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Pipstickz

[apophys]

4 WP at 275 days, 3 used... Guess I'm around average...

But back ontopic, I don't think a 4 WP crit is a good idea. Requiring 4 spent WP to recruit, whatever its cost may be, is a viable option, though.

[Udgard]

Okay, so far most of the votes is no. Indeed, 4 WP is not easy to get.. =\ I guess I might make harder quests instead.

[quote name='Grido' date='03 December 2009 - 12:28 AM' timestamp='1259774918' post='48918']
i think 4wp is quite high, and that increasing strength to compensate is a bad idea, it'll mean that the players who've been around a while (and therefore have 4wps) will kill other people too easy if you've increased the strength of it
[/quote]
The creature is actually designed to be "stronger" when the enemy is strong, and weaker when facing weaker enemies. Just like how an elemental/water daimon is very strong against high VE enemies and weak otherwise. It's true though, that the problem is on setting the limit of the strength. Life steal has a 20% cap now (used to be 20 something IIRC), the strength adjustment I'm referring to is mostly similar to setting this % cap.

[quote name='Kafuuka' date='03 December 2009 - 12:54 AM' timestamp='1259776445' post='48922']
I thought selling WP was illegal?

Imo a 4 WP creature is only cool if it looks hot but is totally useless. It's like saying "I blew 4 WP on this but that's because I am awesome enough to afford it." If it is really useful, more people will buy it, making it less unique (imo wishes are supposed to be unique, although automation somewhat ruins that idea) and also unbalancing (not that i battle a lot).
Plus it would force MB to gather enough WP to buy it, lest he fails to prove his awesomeness. A just reward for all that PL spam
[/quote]
Selling WP is indeed illegal. A while ago RJ had a quest to trade 2 drachs for a WP to help reduce the overpopulation of drachs. Although, I think if there was a drach in the WP shop for 1 or 2 WP, many will want to buy it. I dunno about uniqueness, it is a paradox that the more unique something is, more people will want it and make it less unique..

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='03 December 2009 - 12:55 AM' timestamp='1259776506' post='48923']
I dislike this idea. We do not need "stronger" creatures. But creatures with varieties in their attack/defend/powers. Right now, there are four creatures seen in every ritual. Drachorns, Chaos Archers, and Grasans.

The rest are not strong enough to fight with.
[/quote]
You only mentioned 3 creatures =D
And you're right, most of the rest are not strong enough to fight with. That's why the new creatures need to be strong enough, so it doesn't end up just being another collector's item gathering dust. And yes, it will have new varieties in abilities.

[quote name='dst' date='03 December 2009 - 01:49 AM' timestamp='1259779775' post='48940']
And there is the other issue:if the stakes are high enough WPs might be trade/sold/etc. I don't want to see that.
[/quote]
Yeah, that's one problem we all don't want to see.. =\ If implementing a 4 WP creature will lead to such problem, I'd rather not do it. Although, I was hoping that it will not be such a great incentive as to actually lead to a WP trading problem.

[quote name='Pipstickz' date='03 December 2009 - 09:03 AM' timestamp='1259805839' post='48992']
I've had two WP with about 450 days x3

Oh right, as for on-topicness: I think 4 WP may be a bit much, but then again, you never know what'll happen in the future. Wishpoints could become common currency, and this creature could become common with pretty much everyone, just like the drach is now.
[/quote]
Yes, the original decision was to make it only a 1 WP creature, since the idea was conceived during the times when WP was very scarce. The idea of 4 Wp was put aside until the festival aftermath, when there was some WP inflation with RPCs giving WPs for adepts and the like. Now WP distribution is more controlled with the automated system (limiting the amount of WP that can be given) and less controlled with everyone able to give a WP, thus the need to ask for all your opinions =)


So far, the majority vote is a no. I'll add in a few more details that answers to some of the concern and see if there's a change in your opinions. If the public opinions doesn't change, we'll scrap the 4 WP idea.

- The creature will be untradable. (or at least, that's the plan. No CTC for the craeture)
- 1 WP is required to recruit the creature, and 3 WP to upgrade it to the max. Subsequent creatures only need 1 WP to recruit, but upgrading it no longer takes a WP. The 3 Wp is just to unlock the upgrading option and is shared across all creatures of that player.
- A large fraction of the creature's strength is based on the enemy's strength (%based just like lifesteal), and strength adjustments will mostly affect the %cap (although there are some non-% abilities as well).

[Pipstickz]

Why not make it 3-4 used WP and one to buy? Not very many people could get it, if you look at the list...

[Chewett]

[quote name='Udgard' date='03 December 2009 - 06:11 AM' timestamp='1259820665' post='49002']
The creature is actually designed to be "stronger" when the enemy is strong, and weaker when facing weaker enemies. Just like how an elemental/water daimon is very strong against high VE enemies and weak otherwise. It's true though, that the problem is on setting the limit of the strength. Life steal has a 20% cap now (used to be 20 something IIRC), the strength adjustment I'm referring to is mostly similar to setting this % cap.

- The creature will be untradable. (or at least, that's the plan. No CTC for the craeture)
- 1 WP is required to recruit the creature, and 3 WP to upgrade it to the max. Subsequent creatures only need 1 WP to recruit, but upgrading it no longer takes a WP. The 3 Wp is just to unlock the upgrading option and is shared across all creatures of that player.
- A large fraction of the creature's strength is based on the enemy's strength (%based just like lifesteal), and strength adjustments will mostly affect the %cap (although there are some non-% abilities as well).
[/quote]

So this is a creature you have made?

If so perhaps you should tell us more about it before we decide, you are telling us pieces of infomation and to me it seems an overpowered creature already.

[Yoshi]

[quote name='dst' date='02 December 2009 - 01:49 PM' timestamp='1259779775' post='48940']
@Malaikat Maut: and I have 24 with almost 600 active days. So my ratio is better.

And there is the other issue:if the stakes are high enough WPs might be trade/sold/etc. I don't want to see that.
[/quote]

And I have 4 WP's in 86 days which beats dst's ratio [img]http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/public/style_emoticons//cool.gif[/img]

I actually like the idea of this creature. It's not like its 4 wp's per creature, it would be 1 per unique creature and 3 to unlock upgrading tiers (One time use). It would motivate more people to completing if not starting more quests and becoming perhaps more active (Only downside is I have to beat more people for my WP's). Wishpoints cannot be sold/traded anyways so you are not going to see that occur and if you do, the parties involved will not get away with it without a punishment. I voted yes.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Yoshi' date='03 December 2009 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1259848550' post='49032']
I actually like the idea of this creature. It's not like its 4 wp's per creature, it would be 1 per unique creature and 3 to unlock upgrading tiers (One time use).
[/quote]

Actually he was proposing that the creature would cost 4 wishpoints. and not just one and have used 3.

[Udgard]

Actually, I am proposing that the 3 WP be used for upgrading tiers. I know it's not clear from the first post, which is why I added some explanation on the 2nd post. The 3 WP is not just WP used for other wishes though, it will be consumed to unlock the upgrade option. Alternatively, if people still think this is too much, I'll change it and use a questing system just like braiton. The difference is with a WP cost, people could try other quests and upgrade the creature, without the WP option, there would only be one source of quest to upgrade it.

Details.. well, I guess it would spoil the fun if I lay out all the planned abilities here. But to give a clearer picture:
- the creature will have different signature abilities on each tier. Each tier will be useful enough on its own (so those without access to maxing it won't have a half-done useless creature), although higher levels should be more useful, naturally.
- the creature's main role is not a damage dealer like archers/drachs, but a supportive one that should be used in ritual mixes for maximum benefit.

I'll be away for a day or two, but if there's anything else that you would ask/comment on, please post them here. Thanks for your inputs everyone =)

[Grido]

Does the creature have 4 levels then? 1 WP to get to each level? And the WP activation gives you the "key" to open the next level?

If reducing it to 2 WP, have one going to lvl 3?
If reducing it to 3 WP, have one going to lvl 2, and 4?

[Fenrir Greycloth]

To clarify, by plural drachorns, I meant rustgold and gg drachorns.

I don't want to see wps being used to buy creatures. It ruins the feel of the wp shop. It is completely seperate from creature fights(for the most part) and grinding. It focuses on the other groups out there. Questers and rpers.

[Burns]

Since there are no borders in Murry's plan, i'd find it exceedingly fitting to have a creature in WishShop that has abilities to take out grinders and token-farmers

but i think 4 WP is too much, too, and is pretty counter-intuitiv since all other thngs come with cost of 1 and a certain requirement of spendings...
why not have 6 spent WP and cost of 1?
or bring it out much earlier in WishShop, maybe 2 spent, or even just 1 spent?
I have no idea what you are creating, and your hints don't help me grasp the concept (=P), but if i understood it halfwise, i DO want it 'public', tons of WP mean that mostly grinders have a shot at them, the rest doesn't stay that long... AND i want the crit to have mp5 as requirement XD

[Pipstickz]

With the (possible) WP for active days feature, the price may be suitable...maybe...

[apophys]

Untradeable?... Absolutely not. There should be no untradeable creatures.

Actually spending WP for the creature, as with the dream joker, I do not like. I'm all for new creatures, but a usable/useful creature should not have WP cost itself to recruit; it makes stronger people even stronger, because they wouldn't trade it even if they could.

How about requiring 3-4 spent WP and 1 to unlock? And recruit it, in the Tribunal, for regular VP, VE, and AP? Kinda like the Berserker's Charge item, just a bit more expensive.


[quote name='Burns' date='04 December 2009 - 08:49 AM' timestamp='1259912989' post='49076']
AND i want the crit to have mp5 as requirement XD
[/quote]
Hey!

[Nex]

[quote name='apophys' date='06 December 2009 - 05:52 AM' timestamp='1260075130' post='49271']
Untradeable?... Absolutely not. There should be no untradeable creatures.
[/quote]
[quote name='Udgard' date='03 December 2009 - 07:11 AM' timestamp='1259820665' post='49002']

- 1 WP is required to recruit the creature, and 3 WP to upgrade it to the max. Subsequent creatures only need 1 WP to recruit, but upgrading it no longer takes a WP. The 3 Wp is just to unlock the upgrading option and is shared across all creatures of that player.
- A large fraction of the creature's strength is based on the enemy's strength (%based just like lifesteal), and strength adjustments will mostly affect the %cap (although there are some non-% abilities as well).
[/quote]

it should be obvious why the creature [i]has to be[/i] untradable in this setup. and even if the 4 wp idea gets scraped: a useful, wp-obtainable, tradeable creature would increase the incentive of using alts as multi-solvers for wp quests or to abuse the age based wp (if it gets implemented). depending on the exact setup and powers, i'd even suggest making it one-per-account, untradable.

the overall idea is a really nice one, but personally i'd be in favor of a slightly lower wp cost.