Moderators - Humans Or Machines?

[dst]

For quite a while now (including today, yes fenrir, I am talking about your report) moderators have been pointed fingers at for expressing their opinions. Since when are we not allowed to say what we think? Since when should we refrain from speaking our minds just because we are mods? Why should we have less freedom then the normal players? Huh?


Did I used bad words? If yes, please provide the print screen or the place where I did that.
Did I say something that is not true? If yes, please come with proofs.
In case you feel like I abused my powers, please BRING proofs!
All you do is whine and accuse and point fingers but NEVER bring proofs! And then you whine some more when you are sent away for the lack of proofs.
You insult mods and then you whine when you are punished. And you scream "mod abuse"!
Get over it people! Play the game, obey the rules and in case you don't want to follow the rules don't be cowards and assume the responsibility!

[Shadowseeker]

Let me revoice the above in a more diplomatic way:

Simple:
1. We moderators help you with your topics, and any issues regarding things that normal users cannot attend to like closing topics, removing spam, etc.
2. What we do is a service, not something you paid for. If you do pay me every month 30$ I'll listen a little bit more to what you rant about. (Note: A little refers to an amount I decide.)
3. A moderator as such has more powers, but still is one of the players attending MD. As such, unless there specifically is written "As my authority of being a moderator etc" (or anything like that) assume it's the player, not the moderator talking.

4. If you fail to accept the statements above you may talk to us. However be reminded that the way I voiced it is _very_ clear.

5. Always remember that blatant disregard for rules will obviously lead to punishment, be it in forms of warn or other things.

[Fenrir Greycloth]

Again, dst, you use the word coward where it does not apply. I am beginning to think that you are indeed the coward. You think it's brave to say what's on your mind? On the internet? Where there are no real repercussions? Think again, you're just some lonely woman sitting at her computer all day with nothing to do but cause trouble.

As for Mods behaving like children? Mods are in a position of authority(how ever little it may be). People in authoritative positions must act like people who are in charge, otherwise, who will respect them and listen to what they say? Out of all the Mods on this forum, I respect Grido the most. By far. Why? He acts like a mature member of our community. I have never seen him loose his temper and post something that he later regretted. And if he has, I didn't read it, or don't remember it.

No, you didn't use bad words. I couldn't care less if you used every curse word known to mankind.
Whether or not it is true, or a lie, what you say sometimes is just plain harassment. You target the same person over and over again, launch at them your very own brand of hatred and then watch with joy as they flip out. You always provoke people. Or you go searching for things people do to give your life meaning.

Anyone with eyes can see that you are a spiteful woman. No one appreciates that.

Btw, thanks for responding to my Report. I knew you would read it and respond.

PS: If you ever have enough gall to prove to me that you are not a coward, please, do so. And I don't mean behind a computer screen where you have absolutely no chance of physical harm. Try doing what I do, and then talk to me about cowardice.

[Burns]

Probably the question shouldn't be whether mods should have opinions and feelings, but whether certain opinions are unfitting for mods.
It recently occured on another forum i occassionally watch that a mod has been demoted for racism, and lateron banned from the forums completely.

Extreme rightist opinions are surely some a Mod shouldn't have, or at least not show openly.

But there's no question about having opinions or not, mods have them.
Whether they are qualified for what they do still is probably up to Chewett's descicion on the forums and Grido's on the LHOs in game, and i bet both of them treat complaints about their people with high priority. IN PRIVATE, not in public threads.

[Chewett]

There seems to be some Misunderstanding of how the moderators are different from a normal forum user. So i shall Explain my viewpoint on this and hope that people also give their view on what i have said.

Moderators unlike normal users have a few extra things they can do, Some of these are, but are not limited to, Closing/moveing/Deleting topics and editing posts. They also do their work for no reward, and have not been asked but have offered to help. Apart from this they have no other Special ability or power.

Because they are just normal users, with one or two extra buttons. It means they are treated like normal users UNLESS they are using their Moderator Powers, and then they are treated as a moderator.

Because of this, All (except one) moderators have agreed to not moderate a post that they feel strongly about, unless they have consulted another Mod/gotten another one to do it, Which means that they separate their Moderator powers with their normal user privileges.

Like any other Member, you can complain about their rudeness or whatever else you think is against the T+C's of the forum and the forum rules. But please do not say "because they are a moderator i think that..." Because unless they are moderating a topic they are not a moderator. That argument has not validity since they have all the rights of a normal user. And thus if they are breaking the rules they will get the punishment's of a normal user.

As usual, I am happy to hear people questioning whether things are right, Because that just tightens up the rules in that Members mind, But please dont start with questioning if they should be doing something "as a moderator" unless they have used their Moderator powers.

Contact me any way you like to complain, moan or question anything someone has done and i will gladly give you my opinion of the matter.

----------------------------

Now onto Fenrirs Point.

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='13 May 2010 - 10:00 AM' timestamp='1273741256' post='59746']
Again, dst, you use the word coward where it does not apply. I am beginning to think that you are indeed the coward. You think it's brave to say what's on your mind? On the internet? Where there are no real repercussions? Think again, you're just some lonely woman sitting at her computer all day with nothing to do but cause trouble.
[...]
No, you didn't use bad words. I couldn't care less if you used every curse word known to mankind. Whether or not it is true, or a lie, what you say sometimes is just plain harassment. You target the same person over and over again, launch at them your very own brand of hatred and then watch with joy as they flip out. You always provoke people. Or you go searching for things people do to give your life meaning. Anyone with eyes can see that you are a spiteful woman. No one appreciates that.
Btw, thanks for responding to my Report. I knew you would read it and respond.
PS: If you ever have enough gall to prove to me that you are not a coward, please, do so. And I don't mean behind a computer screen where you have absolutely no chance of physical harm. Try doing what I do, and then talk to me about cowardice.
[/quote]

So, When you decided to insult me over the internet, using every conceivable swear word in your vocabulary, by your own standards you were being a "coward" sitting "behind a computer screen where you have absolutely no chance of physical harm". This would be correct based on your own portrayal of dst. The only difference being is that you were swearing at me and she hasnt. Also, From what i have seen she hasnt threatened you, Wheras you have said "Omg sometimes I wish you were here so I can punch you in the head". Something seems amiss where you complain about a few words she said wheras you threaten me and i dont complain because i decided it would be better for you.

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='13 May 2010 - 10:00 AM' timestamp='1273741256' post='59746']
As for Mods behaving like children? Mods are in a position of authority(how ever little it may be). People in authoritative positions must act like people who are in charge, otherwise, who will respect them and listen to what they say? Out of all the Mods on this forum, I respect Grido the most. By far. Why? He acts like a mature member of our community. I have never seen him loose his temper and post something that he later regretted. And if he has, I didn't read it, or don't remember it.
[/quote]

I will ofc refer to my above post for a reply to this. I hope this clears a few things up.

[Fenrir Greycloth]

[quote name='Chewett' date='13 May 2010 - 01:57 PM' timestamp='1273773462' post='59769']
There seems to be some Misunderstanding of how the moderators are different from a normal forum user. So i shall Explain my viewpoint on this and hope that people also give their view on what i have said.

Moderators unlike normal users have a few extra things they can do, Some of these are, but are not limited to, Closing/moveing/Deleting topics and editing posts. They also do their work for no reward, and have not been asked but have offered to help. Apart from this they have no other Special ability or power.

Because they are just normal users, with one or two extra buttons. It means they are treated like normal users UNLESS they are using their Moderator Powers, and then they are treated as a moderator.

Because of this, All (except one) moderators have agreed to not moderate a post that they feel strongly about, unless they have consulted another Mod/gotten another one to do it, Which means that they separate their Moderator powers with their normal user privileges.

Like any other Member, you can complain about their rudeness or whatever else you think is against the T+C's of the forum and the forum rules. But please do not say "because they are a moderator i think that..." Because unless they are moderating a topic they are not a moderator. That argument has not validity since they have all the rights of a normal user. And thus if they are breaking the rules they will get the punishment's of a normal user.

As usual, I am happy to hear people questioning whether things are right, Because that just tightens up the rules in that Members mind, But please dont start with questioning if they should be doing something "as a moderator" unless they have used their Moderator powers.

Contact me any way you like to complain, moan or question anything someone has done and i will gladly give you my opinion of the matter.


[u][ I am glad you cleared this up. Here, I thought the rules were different considering the explanation you gave to me based on my removal of a few extra buttons. ][/u]
----------------------------

Now onto Fenrirs Point.



So, When you decided to insult me over the internet, using every conceivable swear word in your vocabulary, by your own standards you were being a "coward" sitting "behind a computer screen where you have absolutely no chance of physical harm". This would be correct based on your own portrayal of dst. The only difference being is that you were swearing at me and she hasnt. Also, From what i have seen she hasnt threatened you, Wheras you have said "Omg sometimes I wish you were here so I can punch you in the head". Something seems amiss where you complain about a few words she said wheras you threaten me and i dont complain because i decided it would be better for you.
[u]
[Yes, I said that. And sometimes I feel that way about a lot of people. And if they were here, I would consider doing it. The difference between me and dst though, in the terms of cowardice, I can and have done what I say I will do. [Not that I will punch you in the head, Chewett. I merely expressed my wish to do so, you were being infuriatingly annoying.] Where as DTS, she is like one of those Shitzu's. They bark and bark and bark and bark, but as soon as a Rotty comes by and barks at her, she runs away with her tail between her legs. Well, I see DTS hiding in the corner right now, with a puddle between her legs. DST, just shut up, and stop harassing players. Do what you tell me to do, and ignore them. Pretend they don't exist. Pretend you don't exist, and then we will all be happy.] [/u]



I will ofc refer to my above post for a reply to this. I hope this clears a few things up.
[/quote]


If anyone has any problems with what I said, talk to me about it. If you don't want to talk about it, and wish to confront me, I will be glad to meet in a mutual place and we can "talk" about it there.

[Firsanthalas]

On the subject of cowardice, I think threatening a woman with physical violence is that. I think a guy that is in the military and thinks he is quite buff is even worse.
Infact threatening anyone with physical violence because you feel you are equiped to deliver is not exactly brave in my book. A soldier trains to fight and hopes never to have to. Shame on you, you should know better.

[Fenrir Greycloth]

I didn't threaten anyone. Please show me where I said "I will punch you in the head". Edit: Nor did I imply it anywhere. I do not threaten idly.

Again, I am a Combat Engineer. I am not an ordinary foot soldier. I go on humanitarian missions, setting up water purification systems, stabilizing structures, and building access routes. In the odd event that I am need to do the other part of my job, I can do the exact opposite.

I think that anyone who uses the word Coward so many times, and does not have the attribute called Bravery, should not use the word Coward.

It's like call a mouse, a Rat, when you are a New York Sewer Rat.

Odd bit of info: Why aren't there any alligators in the NY sewers? The NW Sewer Rats ate them.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Fenrir Greycloth

[Darigan]

well now that this has gone completely off topic shall we close this before it becomes too much in the way of a flame pile...

[awiiya]

This is what I understand:
dst wants people to stop telling her not to voice her opinions.
Fenrir wants mods to be careful of how they voice their opinions, because it affects people.
Chewett wants everybody to treat mods like normal users.

So it seems that the problem is not with the mods and their opinions, but that people are taking them with more weight than they deserve. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have never read a mod opinion that I shook my head in shame, albeit I rarely shake my head in shame at any posts.

In addition, even as a young member of the community, I didn't treat mods with any sort of reverence. I knew all of the mods as players before I realized their were mods too, so perhaps they lost any sort of halo-effect they might have had. However, they were, and always have been, people, and people have opinions, some of which I agree with.

Does it really matter what people think of mods, in terms of respect and admiration? The job of a mod doesn't require the people of the forum to listen to them. They can delete your posts whether you like it or not. In the same way it doesn't matter whether we like judges or not, mods are non-reliant on us.

I don't like insults, though. Big words like bravery and courage should be left for epithets.

Awi

Edited May 14, 2010 by awiiya

[CrazyMike]

Here is my cents:

Moderators are humans too.

I would expect that to have opinions.

Whether the opinion is extreme or not, depends on the reciver or to be exact, Chewett to decide.

When Moderators do a good job, I believe nobody will start a thread to say thank you.

But when Moderators are perceived to be biased, thredas start building up.

I see the moderators controlling their emotions and trying their best to be nuetral. If they can, great.

If not, then as Chewett said, treat them like a normal player.

Dont take things too personally. DST is playing a game. She is playing a role. Did she harass players? Maybe she did. Did she hurt your feelings? Maybe she did. But as long as she plays the game within the rules and did not abuse her mod responsibilities...... whats your problem?

Mods do not expect to be thanked for what they do, but they would expect you to understand what they do.

I believe this thread is considered harrassing, as they have better things to do than to defend their actions.

Peace out!

[Metal Bunny]

Read the rules; conform or leave.

However, there is no rule against asking people (politely), to be a bit nicer and conform to etiquette.

However, there is no rule against ignoring this and being a not so subtle ogre (this is not a reference to anyone), so long as you don't actually use your club to pound in someone's brain.
Heh, there isn't even a rule where it says you have to respect someone else's opinion, nor is there a constitutional law in any country in the world that protects people from getting their feelings hurt.
There are however, laws about actually harming, or threatening to harm, as well as general anti-discriminatory laws.

Last time I checked, only the old RPC's were expected to conform not only to the rules, but to etiquette as well.
Moderators are not RPC's.

Please close this topic?

[apophys]

I understand there are a few certain people with a long-standing rivalry. To all concerned: chill.


[quote name='dst' date='13 May 2010 - 01:49 AM' timestamp='1273733395' post='59740']
I will not go into details because I don't want to waste my time explaining things to you: you can't understand. You need brains to understand.
[/quote]

Don't say things like that. It makes the problem of possible flame wars worse.

[addy]

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='13 May 2010 - 09:00 AM' timestamp='1273741256' post='59746']
PS: If you ever have enough gall to prove to me that you are not a coward, please, do so. And I don't mean behind a computer screen where you have absolutely no chance of physical harm. Try doing what I do, and then talk to me about cowardice.
[/quote]

*reads the statement carefully and then again reads it carefully*

It doesn't sound like a threat to me,it sounds more like fenrir was challenging DST to do the job that he does in RL....and seeing the job that he does in RL,this fact can well be correct to the 'no chance of physical harm part...After all,he does have quite a dangerous job....I want you guys to seriously read these lines and tell me how you can think anything else then what I just said when you read 'try doing what I do'.

I know I am virtually disagreeing with every post in this topic on this one...but I really feel like I need to speak on this.

[Fenrir Greycloth]

Yes, apparently, according to Chewett, all the mods, and a "random selection of forum users" this was a blatant threat to dst's well being. Still not sure how you could even get that from what I said. Chewett claims its very obvious. But I fail to see it.

I would like people explain that for me, if they could.

[Yoshi]

Well, depending on how you read it, it could be as if you wanted to meet her IRL not just behind a screen, and cause her physical harm.

Frankly, I didn't see it like that, but it isn't something you really should have said.

[Shadowseeker]

I'll voice it in a way how I read it at first, though addy does have a point as well.

PS: If you ever have enough gall to prove to me that you are not a coward, please, do so. And I don't mean behind a computer screen where you have absolutely no chance of physical harm.- This obviously refers to something in RL, no? Physical harm. That usually has to do with violence, one way or another.


Try doing what I do, and then talk to me about cowardice. - If you refer to your job, it gets a different meaning. But why should picking a different way of living be..cowardice? You yourself also said it, you aren't exactly in the dangerous parts of the world. When I first read it, I understood it as: "Make everyone around you a really hated enemy and then go meet them IRL, possibly starting a big big argument over something and get into fight." Thus, violence.

[Fenrir Greycloth]

Let me break it down. nice and simple.

[quote]PS: If you ever have enough gall to prove to me that you are not a coward, please, do so.[/quote]
Basically challenging her to do something that proves she is not a coward.

[quote] And I don't mean behind a computer screen where you have absolutely no chance of physical harm.[/quote]
Meaning, something in RL.

[quote] Try doing what I do, and then talk to me about cowardice.[/quote]

Try going for a tour in Afghanistan like I did, 9 months ago. Go through Basic Training, even. My class started with 63 recruits, graduated with 31. Less than 50% of people made it. Of the 8 girls, 0 passed.

If you can make it past Basic Training, I will not think you are a coward. But sitting behind a computer calling people cowards tells me that you are a BIG coward. I refuse to believe she would say that to someone's face.


I hope this explanation helps you understand the three sentences I posted. If not, maybe I can provide a definition of each word, translate it into three different languages, and then throw textbooks at you for awhile.

[Indyra]

...Fenrir..instead of solving things you managed to get them worse:

1- you don;t challenge anyone except in-game , so proving that she's not a coward means an in-game action : a duel of some sort with the weapons you both chose;

2 - [quote]Meaning, something in RL[/quote] - why would anything IRL have a meaning in here ? maybe i have an 8 hour job behind computer and go skydiving after ? does it prove anything -no !

3 - [quote]Try doing what I do[/quote] and [quote]If you can make it past Basic Training[/quote],- why would i ? if one doesn't do what you do and doesn't live at your standard this doesn't make him or her a less of a person

4 - [quote]Of the 8 girls, 0 passed.[/quote] - the fact that you live in a "all-men land" and you state misogynist opinions has nothing to do with MD. (i;m not going to debate on what women do in a men world )

5 -[quote]this explanation helps you understand the three sentences[/quote]- all your statements refer to real life . It doesn't matter if you apply them to dst or somebody else (any players in MD) who we are IRL has nothing to do with our in-game actions.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Indyra

[Chewett]

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='20 May 2010 - 05:02 AM' timestamp='1274328176' post='60079']
Try going for a tour in Afghanistan like I did, 9 months ago. Go through Basic Training, even. My class started with 63 recruits, graduated with 31. Less than 50% of people made it. Of the 8 girls, 0 passed.
[/quote]

Your masochism apart, How did you play MD during this time period and how come your ip always goes to one city, in Canada, During this time period when you where in Afghanistan? Im rather interested in the military infra-structure since i spent some time working on setting some of the Brittish guys up with servers and stuff to be flown over. Unless they were routing through your home town (which when i was setting them it it was both impractical and stupid to do) or someone was logging in there with your permission.

[Fenrir Greycloth]

[quote name='Chewett' date='20 May 2010 - 02:03 AM' timestamp='1274335421' post='60088']
Your masochism apart, How did you play MD during this time period and how come your ip always goes to one city, in Canada, During this time period when you where in Afghanistan? Im rather interested in the military infra-structure since i spent some time working on setting some of the Brittish guys up with servers and stuff to be flown over. Unless they were routing through your home town (which when i was setting them it it was both impractical and stupid to do) or someone was logging in there with your permission.
[/quote]

I was gone for a four month period during the beginning of my play time with MD.

And you would be wrong about the IP, Chewett. Because I've logged in from several countries. The US, Germany, and Cuba to name a few.

Edit: Not to mention several canadian cities. So please, don't lie.

And as far as the infrastructure for the internet while on base in another, I believe it goes through satellites and those satellites reroute it through servers, which then perform searches on it so that any information can be traced, flagged and removed if necessary. This includes Skype calls, which is why an armed officer is always present during such events, just incase something happens.

Edit2: And as far as the RL challenge to DST, she does not RP. She is not a "character" she is dst. Through and through. What comes out of dst's mouth is what ever her real name's mouth says.

Therefor, my challenge is in RL.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Fenrir Greycloth

[Burns]

[quote]If you have something _personal_ about someone use ways outside MD to settle the conflict. In MD you are facing the character that person created and not the person itself.[/quote]

http://magicduel.com/pages/info.rules.php

You know, i don't really bother since the forums are ruled by different laws than MD, and different people are here to enforce them, but if i'm supposed to read your comments on dst, which also occur ingame, as a personal attack, i'll want to report that to my Chief Inquisitor, and i bet he won't be happy about it.
So, you'll maybe not want to let that post above stand there as it is.

[Nimrodel]

[quote]Where as DTS, she is like one of those Shitzu's. They bark and bark and bark and bark, but as soon as a Rotty comes by and barks at her, she runs away with her tail between her legs. Well, I see DTS hiding in the corner right now, with a puddle between her legs[/quote]

You know Fenrir... you should read that statement again. It sounds really uncivilized. Rather than degrading dst, it disgraces you, and speaks very ill about the kind of mentality you have. Please don't say you didn't use the word DST. Its pretty clear what you intended to say.

[quote]Try going for a tour in Afghanistan like I did, 9 months ago. Go through Basic Training, even. My class started with 63 recruits, graduated with 31. Less than 50% of people made it. Of the 8 girls, 0 passed.

If you can make it past Basic Training, I will not think you are a coward. But sitting behind a computer calling people cowards tells me that you are a BIG coward. I refuse to believe she would say that to someone's face.[/quote]

Zero passed you say. That doesn't speak for all girls in this world. And neither does it prove that those who passed are not cowards. It simply means that those who did not pass couldn't withstand the training you referred to better than the ones who did. And that may be based on a number of factors. I doubt people would have signed up for the training if they were cowards. Passing some training is not a bravery. I could quote like so many examples that'd make training you reffered to sound like nothing and do not require 'touring' a country thats being terrorized. If you grade cowardice or bravery on a scale with respect to your training, I can assure you that you have a very poor appreciation of the term.

FYI: people don't need to prove their bravery to anyone at all. And the words "Sitting behind a computer" apply to you as well.

[Grido]

[quote]Try going for a tour in Afghanistan like I did, 9 months ago. Go through Basic Training, even. My class started with 63 recruits, graduated with 31. Less than 50% of people made it. Of the 8 girls, 0 passed.[/quote]Try being a single parent on benefits, want to hear the pass rate of that? cos i can imagine it's a lot lower
not saying dst (or me) is a single parent or blah, but i know several who are, and personally i find you trying to macho yourself up a load of rubbish, there is a fine line between being brave and stupid and you get both in the army (not saying you're stupid)

[CrazyMike]

I just checked the calendar…. Its 2010.

Are you still living in the stone age?

Just because you have passed Basic Training and went on a Tour in Afghanistan doesn’t make you brave. It might just mean you are too stubborn to know when to quit.

You say you were on a Tour in Afghanistan? Doesn’t prove that you were brave. It just mean that you were a mindless drone who got involve in a war that Americans shouldn’t be involved in.

Sorry, I am anti-war and all my American friends share the same sentiment.

Being in a war is not something to be proud of.

DST sits behind her computer and speaks her mind. How many dare do that? Like you said… she doesn’t roleplay, whats dst in game is dst in RL. That take guts!

Bravery is different depending on different individual.

But to say that you are brave because of what you went through shows a narrow mindedness that is typical of a MCP. You give guys in the army a bad name not to mention men in general.

Don’t even get me started on your point that no females passed. Doesn’t mean a thing.

You might have some point in the beginning, but the more you argue, it only proves one thing. Dst, a woman sitting behind a computer has more brains and balls than you!

If you still have a cell in that brain of yours, I would suggest you retreat before you shove your whole foot, shoe and legs in your mouth!