MP-Level as upgrade requirement

[No one]

WARNING: Long post below!!!

[quote name='I am Bored' timestamp='1293647247' post='76307']
I would agree with most of the things on here, except the bit about MAGIC ctc's, because those are hard to get as it is, and should be allowed to be an exception to the rule. I must also dissagree with no one's suggestion, because lowering creatures like that would cause other problems as well, because you would be reducing the xp of an mp4, to far below the level of an mp3, and that would allow for even more building of powerful creatures at a lower mind power level.
[/quote]
dude, what ... ?
what do you mean by
- "you would be reducing the xp of an mp4, to far below the level of an mp3"
- "and that would allow for even more building of powerful creatures at a lower mind power level"

"Magic" ctc creature should have the option of "activate" and be left unusable. "Activate" meaning that it will receive the limitation of the current MP, allowing a player to get a max Drach (for example) in MP3 and use it at MP5.

[quote name='HeHelpedMe' timestamp='1294285609' post='76923']
I strongly dislike the idea of that kind of requirement.
...
And that should be enough for most of the players. In my opinion, the true problem which leads to alt abuse is the existence of alts.
...
Mp3 and mp4 just need to quickly get to mp5 and be farmed and grinded into cat food by the "vets".
[/quote]


Get serious ppl,

I think this is the only game with no requirements what so ever. This is why a new player start gathering creatures in first week without even understanding what combat means.

The whole creature limitation is for new ppl to learn as a normal player should do and to have a chance to get in touch with all lvl of all creatures.
Also, the limitation will also reduce the gaps between players in same MP (MP3 / MP4).

At this moment MP3s are asking for angiens. Do they know why ? I don't think so, but they've been told that they need some.

NO
THIS MUST BE STOPPED

All players must use the creatures that they can get themselves or use them when they become available.
There are MP4/5 players that don't even know the maxed knator as they never had one.


When this would be implemented , I do agree that a period of time to be given so that MP3s with angiens & max dracs to move to proper MP or to accept the limitations.

Nobody is keeping / forbidding you to stay in lower MPs, but do stay at their level.


Should I remind you about MP4s with 10k attack ? PPL this is for your own good, for MD's future.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Udgard' timestamp='1294289185' post='76925']
You're supposed to stay mp4 just for a while, to age/upgrade some creatures to prepare for mp5. Once you've aged your creatures, go and move on to mp5. And no, people are not supposed to wait for their angiens to have max age before going mp5..[/quote]
Rubish. There is no statement anywhere that says you are supposed to become mp5 at all, let alone that you are supposed to 'only stay mp4 for a while', whatever the heck a while might be defined as. I think the most official statement by Mur is 'not everybody has the patience to reach mp5', but my memory isn't all that good.

[quote]
I think lately there has been to many illusions of "mp5s/vets only wanting to get more people to move up so they can pound them".
[/quote]
I think lately mp5 live in the illusion that anything they say is true and thus that the idea that anyone should be mp5 is true too. Seriously, who is it that tells us that mp5 is hard? Who is it that posts here that mp4 and mp3 is being abused by alts using whatever means. What is the maximum level the 'mains' of the abusers have? It is all mp5. That doesn't mean all mp5s are bad though, that's never what anyone wished to claim. I don't even claim all mp5s who want to stop the alleged (and plausible) abuse on mp3 are trying to gain an advantage at mp5. I claim that it gains more than half of its support on the forum from mp5s who are indeed evil greedy and shortsighted people. I claim that nobody who has never had an mp5 account, supports this idea.

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

[quote name='Udgard' timestamp='1294289185' post='76925']
The first one, I don't think will object much to the proposed requirements,
[/quote]

They already have, multiple times, both in this thread and others.

[quote name='Udgard' timestamp='1294289185' post='76925']
And no, people are not supposed to wait for their angiens to have max age before going mp5..
[/quote]

Of course people want to age their crits before levelling. If you were new now, I'm sure you would too. All this "supposed to" and "not supposed to" is making my head hurt. The newer players who do talk oppose what is being suggested for them and when they do they get told they are wrong...but its for them right? so....surely their statements are pretty important? Actually arn't their statements the most important? Or are we in Plato's republic?

Look at HeHelpedMe here, getting negged for not understanding. Ridiculous. He is one of the only lower AD lower MP people giving comment. He should be listened to and discussed with. His opinion is more valuable because he is actually in the group that is supposedly trying to be helped. If you actually want to help, work with people like him, he is the target population supposedly being supported by this initiative and he opposes it.

[quote name='Udgard' timestamp='1294289185' post='76925']
I think lately there has been to many illusions of "mp5s/vets only wanting to get more people to move up so they can pound them". The thing is, staying mp3/mp4 for eternity won't help people prepare to fight the "vets". People at mp5 has access to much faster stat growth than an mp3/4 can ever hope for, so the longer people stay there, the wider the gap between power they will have. And really, what can those so called vets do to pound on fresh mp5s that has actual consequence to those fresh ones? Combat losses are needed for balance, and tree rits easily prevent damage to your main army.
[/quote]

Having maxed creatures like angiens does help beat other players like MP5s who have maxed power creatures, so in that sense it does help. In addition the mp3/4s arn't all saying they are staying at lower levels in order to be capable of beating the MP5s. A number of them are saying they are staying there because there is just no point in going MP5 at all due to current MP5 attitudes and actions.

These "illusions" you speak of are the voices of those that are supposedly trying to be aided. So listen and work with them. Even I think they are right, I've done testing on it and I have come to the conclusion that they are correct - but I'm not foolish enough to think that I really understand fully because no matter how much testing I do, I the player am a vet of the game and they are not.

[quote name='No one' timestamp='1294322846' post='76964']
Should I remind you about MP4s with 10k attack ? PPL this is for your own good, for MD's future.
[/quote]

Is it? I really don't think it is. In the alternative version of this thread that Kafuuka made [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/8805-a-partial-solution-to-mp-levels-being-broken/page__p__76283#entry76283"]here[/url] I explained how by reasoning the only viable end result of this idea here is an attempt at re-populating MP5, it won't actually do anything else it claims to attempt as far as I can tell.

[quote name='Kafuuka' timestamp='1294338639' post='76981']
I claim that nobody who has never had an mp5 account, supports this idea.
[/quote]

I'd agree, and I'd go further. Some people who have MP5 accounts also don't support it.


Z

[Udgard]

[quote name='Kafuuka' timestamp='1294338639' post='76981']
Rubish. There is no statement anywhere that says you are supposed to become mp5 at all, let alone that you are supposed to 'only stay mp4 for a while', whatever the heck a while might be defined as. I think the most official statement by Mur is 'not everybody has the patience to reach mp5', but my memory isn't all that good.
[/quote]
Sorry, my wording is not complete there( EDIT: Now that I read it again, I did write a complete wording. If you check the one sentence from that paragraph that you left out of the quote, it does show that the statement was directed to those who do plan to go to MP5, just taking overextended preparation). I'm saying that people who do focus on combat are not supposed to stay mp3/4 forever, trying to be kings of mp3/4 and pound on the 'newbies' there. Unless I have a wrong conclusion as to why February and mp5 alts' actions were frowned upon. And people who do stay on mp4 to prepare for the so-called mp5 hell is not supposed to stay there longer than they need to age their creatures, since the longer you stay, the farther the gap in stats there will be, which defeats the purpose of "preparation".

Maybe it's just me, but my understanding is many people don't want to move to mp5 for fear of the so-called pounding and tries to stay longer on mp4 to make themselves stronger. However there is really never enough time to prepare, since the longer you prepare the farther the gap actually is. Just stay long enough to age your creatures and move on. Nowadays it's more like "most people has the patience [u]not [/u]to reach mp5."

Of course, some people do not focus on combat and stay on mp4 for reasons other than pounding on younger players or a millenium preparation to survive mp5, and I don't see anything wrong with them staying mp3/4 forever.
[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1294354739' post='76992']
Of course people want to age their crits before levelling. If you were new now, I'm sure you would too. All this "supposed to" and "not supposed to" is making my head hurt.
[/quote]
I would age my creatures, but I don't think I will wait a year on mp4 just to have a maxed angien. Its huge age requirement strikes me as meaning that a maxed one is a creature you're gonna have at a later stage of your gameplay, not something that you are supposed to wait a year for before you can advance to the next stage of the game. Without being maxed, I do think that angiens are powerful enough.
[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1294354739' post='76992']
Look at HeHelpedMe here, getting negged for not understanding. Ridiculous. He is one of the only lower AD lower MP people giving comment. He should be listened to and discussed with. His opinion is more valuable because he is actually in the group that is supposedly trying to be helped. If you actually want to help, work with people like him, he is the target population supposedly being supported by this initiative and he opposes it.
[/quote]
I'm listening to what he's saying, and I haven't thrown a single rep in this thread yet. I'm giving my opinion (that's discussion I believe, exchanging opinions) that his thought that
[quote]Mp3 and mp4 just need to quickly get to mp5 and be farmed and grinded into cat food by the "vets".[/quote]
is in my opinion incorrect. I'm in the opinion that there is an overly blown up myth that in mp5 everyone is a monster and fresh mp5s can not do anything other than being maimed. Which is why I said it's not like there is much a "vet" can do to really hurt a fresh mp5 by crushing their tree rit.

I might be old, but from 3 years here the last time I seriously trained was.. 2 years ago? My stats are comparable to an mp4, my highest lv angien is lv 3 and most mp4 nowadays would easily be able to defeat me. Being that, I think I understand what a fresh mp5 would experience, and thus my opinion that "fresh mp5 cannot do anything other than being grinded into cat food" is an overblown myth.

Back then before tokens fix, yes I'd agree that mp5 was a whole mess of a hell. Right now I think it has been much better.

[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1294354739' post='76992']
These "illusions" you speak of are the voices of those that are supposedly trying to be aided. So listen and work with them. Even I think they are right, I've done testing on it and I have come to the conclusion that they are correct - but I'm not foolish enough to think that I really understand fully because no matter how much testing I do, I the player am a vet of the game and they are not.
[/quote]
The illusions I'm talking about is this:
[quote]Mp3 and mp4 just need to quickly get to mp5 and be farmed and grinded into cat food by the "vets".[/quote]

[quote]I think lately there has been to many illusions of "mp5s/vets only wanting to get more people to move up so they can pound them"[/quote]

I think it's untrue that you can only be food and unable to do grow or do anything as a "non vet". I'm living the life of a fresh mp5 everyday, and the results of my "testing" is that even fresh mp5s can survive in mp5.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Udgard

[Chewett]

Mp3/4 wouldnt be afraid of mp5 if people didnt continually say they will be pounded when they arrive. The fact is they will be, but everyone is... If you want everyone to wait to mp4 then the problem will merely move down there.

I have been mp5 for a massive amount of time, didnt bother waiting at mp4 because at that time, you would be beaten up in any mindpower. This was because anyone could attack anyone. You learnt how to set def rits that would only lose that crit as you needed to learn. Now people come to mp5 and are surprised that people attack them without asking Gasp!

Its an eventuality that you will be beaten up in mp5, i sat in the Marble Dale Park and had eon hitting me every single timer, but i merely set some bad def rits and let him hit them. It didnt effect me as it was only a few losses.

I dont see why there is so much "fear" of mp5, when people who have been there so long get beaten up as much, or in some cases more than the new mp5's.

What would you say exatly the fear is? because if its of "being attacked" then you surely havent learnt how to make rits...

[Burns]

[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1294354739' post='76992']

Is it? I really don't think it is. In the alternative version of this thread that Kafuuka made [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/8805-a-partial-solution-to-mp-levels-being-broken/page__p__76283#entry76283"]here[/url] I explained how by reasoning the only viable end result of this idea here is an attempt at re-populating MP5, it won't actually do anything else it claims to attempt as far as I can tell.

[/quote]

I'll try to explain my reasoning and arguments, if you/anybody think that this is about getting newbies for mp5.

I think that there shouldn't be any rituals that can't be beaten without lots of shop features. I see that it's unavoidable for MP5, though, simply because MD needs to make money of something. 5 is ultimate fighting, fine, then ultimate fighting.

But i think that doesn't have to be the case in MP3 and 4. THAT is my argument.

I'm certain that anybody who complains here has vast knowledge of the stats of the creatures in question, so i don't need to spoil. Seeing MP3 is MP3, and personal stats are therefore neglectable. In MP4, they do a little, but no more than, say, 100-150 attack and defence.

So, example 1: Angien on lvl 3 has a bit of defence, as you are aware. Compare that defence to, say, the attack of a dark archer, aramor assassin, grasan II. You see a little problem yet?

example 2: Drachorn level 4 already deals that much damage. With considerable VE on it. Seeing that the common everyday drachorn comes with critboost these days...
If i say 150 damage i'm pretty much on the lower end of a _big_ scale. Compare that to the damage of the formerly mentioned usual mp3 creatures. And their Vitalities.


Same in blue for MP4. They have a little stronger creatures and a bit more stats, but compared to angien's defence or drachorn's damage, their usual creatures are but little bugs waiting to be squished.



Here goes my argument summarized:
I don't want those creatures to be accessible to MP3 and MP4 because there are other players who might enjoy the game in all its aspects, also fighting, who stop after a few days because the general message of fighting such rituals is the following: To stand a good ground on NEWBIE level, i need to invest about 60 bucks now AND wait for 2 months. For the WEAKEST of the THREE levels of combat.

THAT is my problem about it.

[No one]

@Z:
[quote name='No one' timestamp='1294322846' post='76964']
Also, the limitation will also reduce the gaps between players in same MP (MP3 / MP4).
...
Should I remind you about MP4s with 10k attack ? PPL this is for your own good, for MD's future.
[/quote]
I don't care about differences between MP3 & MP4 or MP4 & MP5.
Read my words: I DON'T CARE .

[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1294354739' post='76992']
Look at HeHelpedMe here, getting negged for not understanding. ... His opinion is more valuable because he is actually in the group that is supposedly trying to be helped. ...
[/quote]
I did, so many times, tried to reason with young players. The problem is that you have to raise him to your lvl to make him understand. Otherwise he does not (want to ) understand.
If I would have liked to do that I would have been an LHO.

[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1294354739' post='76992']
Having maxed creatures like angiens does help beat other players like MP5s who ...
[/quote]
I don't even want to let MP3 fight MP5s, I am against it. I petitioned everyone I can think that has a decision in this to forbid MP3s in alliances/TC/HC.
MP3 must only fight / compare to MP3.
MP4 must only fight / compare to MP4. (see the 10k stats that I'm insisting)
MP5 ... when you get bored you get to MP5 too.


All you have to consider is that extreme stats are NOT NORMAL. Players with such stats are less then 15% / MP and for MP3 & 4 we have this option to limit their interference.

I DON'T CARE if they want to stay in lower MP as long as they are within reasonable limits (the limits that we're discussing about) from the average players in that MP.

I.m.o. MP3 & MP4 should not even be bothered about these limits as long as they don't want to get uber stats and that is the exact reason I want the limits implemented.


So, the rest of the players (mostly MP5) should only talk about how "reasonable" a limit should be and where one is missing.

Edited January 7, 2011 by dst

[Ravenstrider]

I believe the system is fine as it is and that this isn't a very good idea for multiple reasons.

If someone wants a strong alt, they will make it... Why? Superior knowledge... If one can afford himself a drachorn on an alt, why not a fully tokened pimpy? It's not that hard to almost max your principles on let's say mp4 and not reach the cap... God bless the park protection... Should we limit the level on grassans as well? But they only have three and it's not that hard to reach the max level on mp3... for anyone, not just alts...

You won't solve anything with this... It could only make things worse.


And ask yourselves this: Are those that quit because it's too hard to win against people really what we want in MD? Diversifying I'd support... Limiting... Not as much...

Note: I was struggling with combat both on mp3 and mp4 and I haven't really learned to make rits until mp5... I'm still not really all that good, but I've acquired some creatures and I'm swimming in the stormy cold waters of mp5... I knew a few people that quit MD and the reason was always: I can't beat anyone on mp5, I'm too weak... and a few who left because of only having contact with new mp3/mp4 people and not liking some of the god modding and unrealistic rp...

Instead of forcing people to mp5, maybe we should try and prepare them for it? How? Beats me... But I would try to help the best way I could.

[No one]

Ravenstrider, what did I said ?
[quote]
MP3 must only fight / compare to MP3.
MP4 must only fight / compare to MP4. (see the 10k stats that I'm insisting) [/quote]

So: all I care is the stats & creature levels. If one has money to put into dracs / tokens, then good (more money for MD). But at least they will not have thousands of stats difference to the MP mates.


As for :
[quote]
I can't beat anyone on mp5, I'm too weak...
[/quote]
Yea, I know this joke. I see it in so many topics.

[size="5"][b]IT IS A JOKE ppl. [/b][/size]
It is the same situation for every MP. A new NORMAL newcomer in MP3/4/5 will be crushed by an older NORMAL player in same MP.


So, stop spreading jokes, nobody is laughing at them it is really hurting MD because ppl start believing them.

[Ravenstrider]

But one thing is different: No protection on mp5... And most can't handle it... That's what's different... And, no, I don't believe it's a joke, it's just that people get used to one form of training and then, pow, mp5 and it's a different story... And they go: Oh, darn... I'm not protected any more...

About stats... You can gain them much faster with tokens... ^.^ A fully tokened rusty with 1k wins gives A LOT of stats...

Edited January 7, 2011 by Ravenstrider

[Tarquinus]

[quote name='Ravenstrider' timestamp='1294402159' post='77024']
But one thing is different: No protection on mp5... And most can't handle it... That's what's different... And, no, I don't believe it's a joke, it's just that people get used to one form of training and then, pow, mp5 and it's a different story... And they go: Oh, darn... I'm not protected any more...[/quote]
That's an argument against dojos/sparring grounds/etc., though, not an indictment of life at MP5. Many of us who have been around for a long time remember being crushed by vets constantly. If you care enough, you find a way to get your own.

Burns, while I like your idea and agree with you, No one, and Chewy on all counts, I do worry that many might suffer at the expense of a few who are likely to find other ways to exert their combat dominance at low Mind-Power levels. When Zlei and Kafuuka* point out that those most concerned about the problem seem to be MP5s like us, they have a point. Frankly I hate these practices and would love to see those guilty of them banned and their houses burned down. But you know, I don't want to see MD become a police state. If dst and I were allowed to ban all the people we would like to see removed from MD, we would probably ban everyone in the game, probably including each other, until you were the only player left.

It's not fair to expect Mur to review every damned account in the game until the abusers are rooted out - the task is just too big, and he has far, far better things to do with his time. It's too big for the Council, I suspect, and again, we don't want to turn an experiment like MD into a police state. And even then, it's like trying to squeeze the water out of a teflon balloon. I think it's better to express our displeasure personally, just as individuals and not Burns the Almighty LHO or Tarq the Emperor of The Moon That Really Is There, to people who are being wankers and say: Hey, man. I think you're being a wanker.

To everyone who wants to see MD become a better game, I say: try giving a drach or a cool item to someone whose conduct impresses you. From my experience, I doubt you'll regret it.

*[size="1"]I do not include Kyphis, who like Keith and Konstantin is my alt.**

**no, not really. But hey, K-name, ex-Legend Speaker... you never know.[/size]

[Udgard]

[quote name='Ravenstrider' timestamp='1294402159' post='77024']
But one thing is different: No protection on mp5... And most can't handle it... That's what's different... And, no, I don't believe it's a joke, it's just that people get used to one form of training and then, pow, mp5 and it's a different story... And they go: Oh, darn... I'm not protected any more...

[/quote]
Why would people need protection anyways? Put a dummy rit and they can't do much to harm you.

Or is it that the protected training system on mp3/4 is another root of the problem?

[Ravenstrider]

Hey, I don't consider myself a new mp5, I learned to deal with it a long time ago... (I was in an ally for most of my mp4 life)


Honestly, I don't know what the problem is- the sparring grounds, the players, lack of farm animals... who knows... Maybe finding a 50-60 days old mp5 and asking them for their opinion? Same goes for mp3 and mp4...

I'm just relaying what I usually hear from people that quit MD...(Talked to at least four or five who gave this answer)... The thing that causes most frustration I think is the winning mentality we all have drilled into our brains... Win, take, win, more, more, take, take, win, win, win...


Anyway, I suggest that all of you make an mp3 account and get it to mp5, isolated from your main, from people you know and see how it is... I've been recently been doing some fighting with an alt on mp4 and the first thought I had when I got out of story mode was: Hey, I don't remember that fighting was this hard... Yes, the alt has no shop creatures and I haven't done any of the training with a plan, but still...

I have no idea what I was trying to say in this post, but anyway, my opinion still stands, limiting the levels isn't going to do much good... Those who know the system will use it no matter the limits... And new players may suffer more than they do now... If they do...
I mean, you say they get pounded by god accounts but that's not entirely true... I don't believe that the monsters on mp3/mp4 violate the SG rules... And I don't believe you can meet them that often in the open... But I might be deluded.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Ravenstrider

[Kafuuka]

@Burns: Once again I reiterate that I do not think your proposal is effective to stop or even diminish the pwning of noobs. Alts have access to better training schemes, better ritual knowledge and better creatures. Your proposal is to cut down a small part of the better creature department. A 'typical' mp3 according to the mp3 to mp4 half life time of about one week, will not be able to naturally age an elemental to max level. That infamous nightmare ritual is not even an option unless they either trade for an aged elemental. Except they don't know what they would need it for nor do they know its market value or have anything to trade with unless they invested in the shop. See, unless spoilers occurred or they invested in the shop, they wouldn't even know how long they would have to wait.

[quote name='No one' timestamp='1294395688' post='77019']
I did, so many times, tried to reason with young players. The problem is that you have to raise him to your lvl to make him understand. Otherwise he does not (want to ) understand.
If I would have liked to do that I would have been an LHO.
[/quote]
Patronizing eh?
[b]I sure hope that was a joke of yours, a bad one that nobody is laughing at and hey look I can use bold font and look like I [i]know[/i] that I am smarter than you too. I don't even need to make my text bigger in size for it.[/b]
Now please don't make me switch to your lvl anymore, I don't quite enjoy it.

[apophys]

[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1294354739' post='76992']
I'd agree, and I'd go further. Some people who have MP5 accounts also don't support it.


Z
[/quote]

I'm mp5, and I don't support the proposal.


Back when I was mp4; I didn't notice any superpowered people except Nadrolski and Lazarus, neither of which were going around and terrorizing other mp4s. Don't fix what isn't broken.

I personally was able to get my angiens to pre-max level at the end of mp4,btw. It felt wonderful. Don't take that away.

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

[quote name='Udgard' timestamp='1294371893' post='77010']
Its huge age requirement strikes me as meaning that a maxed one is a creature you're gonna have at a later stage of your gameplay
[/quote]

It strikes you as is fine. Its "supposed to"? not fine. It strikes 'me' as an age requirement...and that's it. What you choose to do about that age requirement is up to you.

[quote name='Udgard' timestamp='1294371893' post='77010']
I'm listening to what he's saying, and I haven't thrown a single rep in this thread yet. I'm giving my opinion (that's discussion I believe, exchanging opinions) that his thought that
[/quote]

Sorry if you feel this was personal, it wasn't, it was a general statement using your quote as an example. Of course the general statement itself did include you, but you seem to have taken it as if it was just meant as a dig at you an nobody else - it was meant for a vast number of people, not just you.

I am aware of what a debate is, but thanks for defining it partially for me just in case I wasn't, I will add your referrence to the front of my dictionary for future reference just in case I ever lose the page. Alas, the issue here is that the people commenting from the world that it actually matters to and will affect negatively as well as possibly positively (rather than just positively which is how it will affect MP5) are being argued with that their opinion is not valid enough - which makes no sense seeing as they are the ones that matter here.

What I said about your definition of these "illusions" still stands. Quoting it again makes no odds to what I said on the matter. How is it an illusion? because the players themselves arn't MP5 and can't comment therefore? Well by the same token this entire thread is obsolete then as you are not experiencing MP3 or 4 as a new player and never can again. The difference being that you made an alt or that you experienced it at a different time? At a different time is irrelivant. Made an alt is also irrelivant. Veteren players cannot comment definitively as a personal line on this. I can't, you can't, only their comments matter. I can say I tested and found their comments correct, you can say opposite, but if they themselves as players are saying something is one way then we should listen and work with that instead of pushing veteran docterine down their throats.

[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1294383207' post='77015']
What would you say exatly the fear is? because if its of "being attacked" then you surely havent learnt how to make rits...
[/quote]

Then they haven't learned to make rits and that is an issue, not something to chastise them for. Not that you necessarily are here, but I know many Mp5s who do - and it isn't very helpful to the situation. If they can't make rits to your veteran standards then they can't. If a majority can't then arn't we seeing something else amiss?

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1294387001' post='77018']
I don't want those creatures to be accessible to MP3 and MP4 because there are other players who might enjoy the game in all its aspects, also fighting, who stop after a few days because the general message of fighting such rituals is the following: To stand a good ground on NEWBIE level, i need to invest about 60 bucks now AND wait for 2 months. For the WEAKEST of the THREE levels of combat.
[/quote]

Giving someone something useful and then taking it away from them is the simplest psychological method of warfare to make people feel disheartened and leave. Allowing them to achieve that thing again by working for it again after they already had it makes no odds. Retrospectively downgrading creatures will have this effect. In addition, wihout high VE in place the theory of "any player can beat any player" still stands as far as I know. With what you just said here, not only are you suggesting a change to the entire MP levelling system, but also now a change to the WP and shop system. It also won't change the fact that the suggested implimentation will not help keep new people....unless...unless you are telling me that you have evidencial proof from new players that they leave because at lower levels they are being attacked constantly by insane rits they don't feel they have a hope of hell in beating and that they can never beat anyone else at their level...no wait...isn't that is what is being said constantly about MP5? I thought the point was to try to change the system to help new players. As I said in Kaf's thread, this idea will not do that based on the argument that is being fought against - that being alts with high level creatures, or high level creatures at all at low levels.

[quote name='No one' timestamp='1294395688' post='77019']
Read my words: I DON'T CARE .
[/quote]

Well seeing as that isn't even my point let alone my quote you are responding to...nor do I

[quote name='No one' timestamp='1294395688' post='77019']
The problem is that you have to raise him to your lvl to make him understand. Otherwise he does not (want to ) understand.
[/quote]

Or perhaps it is us who need to understand them, not the other way around.

[quote name='No one' timestamp='1294395688' post='77019']
extreme stats are NOT NORMAL
[/quote]

But this thread isn't about extreme stats. It is about high level creatures and alt abuse. It is, in theory, about a particular suggestion which intends to help keep players. Is it that you think that this suggestion will also help protect against extreme stats at low levels? If so could you please elaborate (explain how)?

[quote name='Ravenstrider' timestamp='1294402159' post='77024']
Maybe finding a 50-60 days old mp5 and asking them for their opinion? Same goes for mp3 and mp4...

(cut)..And I don't believe you can meet ..(Z edit: the monsters).. that often in the open...(cut)
[/quote]

agreed.

Z

[Chewett]

[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1294437440' post='77067']
Then they haven't learned to make rits and that is an issue, not something to chastise them for. Not that you necessarily are here, but I know many Mp5s who do - and it isn't very helpful to the situation. If they can't make rits to your veteran standards then they can't. If a majority can't then arn't we seeing something else amiss?
[/quote]

You cant chastise someone for not knowing something lol. The bigger issue is then that these mp3/4's are being taught to not go to mp5, and specially train certain things up without learning why. Which is something i would say is encouraged by some mp4's

The whole learning process is screwed up when people sit in the dojo complaining about each and every loss, while being told what to train and not learning about the rits. This is much more important than preventing alts.

ANY mp4 can survive at mp5 whatever the stats/crits as long as they have the basics of ritual making, including some decent "ve protecting, crit protecting" rits.

[Burns]

[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1294437440' post='77067']
unless you are telling me that you have evidencial proof from new players that they leave because at lower levels they are being attacked constantly by insane rits they don't feel they have a hope of hell in beating and that they can never beat anyone else at their level...no wait...isn't that is [b]what is being said constantly about MP5? [/b]
[/quote]

Absolutely. No need to drag the same issue down to MP3 and 4, too, is there?
And there are far, far too many 'monsters' who were created solely for the purpose of showing off with their monsters. And if you annoy the wrong persons, they bring them out, just for the sake of hurting you. Or, in some cases, just because the can, with no reason whatsoever.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1294437812' post='77068']
You cant chastise someone for not knowing something lol. The bigger issue is then that these mp3/4's are being taught to not go to mp5, and specially train certain things up without learning why. Which is something i would say is encouraged by some mp4's
[/quote]
According to Burns that is not what this thread is about. As for being encouraged and/or discouraged, that happens on all levels, by all levels and across all levels. The mp5s are scaring people by posting negative mp5 related threads on the forum. They are encouraging to level up asap in the game though. Not necessarily the same people or at the same time though. As an mp4 on the forum I probably dissuade people implicitly from moving up. In the game, and you'll have to take my word for that, I tell people they should decide for themselves after listing all the facts and give them some pro's and cons. Note that by the time I take to write out such a balanced response, half of the people who said 'should I level up' in chat, have gotten at least three 'yes of course' response, without any arguments at all, and have already pushed the button...

[quote]
The whole learning process is screwed up when people sit in the dojo complaining about each and every loss, while being told what to train and not learning about the rits. This is much more important than preventing alts.
[/quote]
I thought the dojo got replaced by the sparring grounds and that the times of 'oh noes i got attacked' were long gone? But suppose it is not, who is giving this people those tips? I don't, none of the real mp3s or mp4s could, unless they have been here long enough to have figured out what to train and by then they're not real noobs anymore anyway.

[quote]
ANY mp4 can survive at mp5 whatever the stats/crits as long as they have the basics of ritual making, including some decent "ve protecting, crit protecting" rits.
[/quote]
Ironically, if we take the same argument but substitute mp3 for mp4 and mp5, they can survive against the horrors which Burns wants to protect them against.

Let me put it this way: there is no mp4 conspiracy to make mp5 suck more. I would start one, if there were a need for it, but it seems to me mp5 are already doing good enough a job by themselves. Just take a look around: messages on the mood panel like 'please level up faster and become my punchbags' or private logs stating 'you're too weak to be mp5, go back to mp4' etc. Don't tell me those were ironic statements by those people.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Kafuuka' timestamp='1294439122' post='77075']
I thought the dojo got replaced by the sparring grounds and that the times of 'oh noes i got attacked' were long gone? But suppose it is not, who is giving this people those tips? I don't, none of the real mp3s or mp4s could, unless they have been here long enough to have figured out what to train and by then they're not real noobs anymore anyway.
[/quote]

Iv seen it many a time, both people complaining that they got attacked ONCE and have all their ve, AND people telling new mp3's to get "angiens" because they will "need" them. you just need to sit at MDNP for any period of time to see the horror that mp3/4 has become. Burns/someone made a very good point that there are people in mp5 who have never bought knators becuase they have been told they are "rubbish"

We have some serious issues with problems like crit leveling and such, when noobs are asking "what creatuers i should get" a lot of people just tell them to get angiens and such, Instead we need to encourage diversity and ritual understanding. Otherwise they get to mp5 and are beaten up because they have no clue how to withstand a "real" attack because they havent had to before now.

[Burns]

Kaf, please note the difference between surviving mostly unharmed (lose a dummy) and standing a realistic chance to win (win the fight).
Of course everybody can play a game of losing rather little against any ritual that exists, as long as they know a little about fighting.
What they can't do is win against any rituals that exist, not without experience, big creatures or shop features. Most newbies i find have little of all that.

[Kafuuka]

No matter which restrictions you impose on mp3, and that implies things far beyond the scale you put here, there will always be someone who you can't win against as an mp3, provided he is not idle. Even if every ritual has a counter, the person with more creatures and more stats has more options. Whatever ritual you make to defeat the fake mp3, that fake mp3 can counter your new ritual with a lot less effort. In the long run, against evil mp3s, a true mp3 will loose more often than win. There is no way to make it perfectly balanced.
In extremis, at some too ridiculous to mention restrictions involving suppressing the shop and all trades and then some more nerfing, mp3s would be able to win against every other mp3 at least once in ten times? I'm certain those kind of odds are impressive compared to one in a hundred or one to maxint against the baddies. In practice though it makes no difference. You choose your target accordingly and you learn to cut your losses. Or you get upset that there is one guy you can never beat... in which case your real life sucks too because there will always be that one guy (or girl) who is better at something.

Please note that:
1. It is no more fun to be nerfed because someone abuses alts than it is to be beaten by someone who abuses alts.
2. It is possible to cut your losses. This possibility costs less than being nerfed.
3. Being nerfed this much doesn't solve the problem. Neither will nerfing a bit less or a bit more.
4. Thus far, no mp3 nor mp4 supports your idea nor any of the previous incarnations.
5. Multiple mp5s don't support it.
6. At least one mp5 who does support it has openly claimed he does because it will lead to more mp5s.
7. In the long, spoilerfree, run this proposal will make mp5 less balanced and hence more broken, with those who are now 'protected' needing help even more.
8. None of these or related problems, are caused by newb mp3s.
9. Thus far, three older mp4s have reported never to witness the alleged problems on mp4. Personally I am not crazy overpowered with my zero tokens and angiens that have less than 100 wins, a total of zero drachorns and a tendency to have 'random' for defensive ritual 50% of the time.

[Pipstickz]

Kafuuka, what is your suggestion to counter Burns'?

[Udgard]

[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1294437440' post='77067']
Sorry if you feel this was personal, it wasn't, it was a general statement using your quote as an example. Of course the general statement itself did include you, but you seem to have taken it as if it was just meant as a dig at you an nobody else - it was meant for a vast number of people, not just you.
I am aware of what a debate is, but thanks for defining it partially for me just in case I wasn't, I will add your referrence to the front of my dictionary for future reference just in case I ever lose the page.
[/quote]
I didn't take it as a dig at me and no one else, as with the amount of neg reps flying around, it was certain that it couldn't have been just one person. It did include me though, and I thought I'd clear my position on the thing, since I don't entirely enjoy the notion that I am doing what I think should be done -discussing- and was instead being used as the example for the thing I am not doing -neg repping people who voice their opinion-.
I'm merely checking if I have the same definition of discussion as everyone else have, since I'm being used as an example to say people should be discussing, when I thought that was exactly what I'm doing.

[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1294437440' post='77067']
What I said about your definition of these "illusions" still stands. Quoting it again makes no odds to what I said on the matter. How is it an illusion? because the players themselves aren't MP5 and can't comment therefore?
[/quote]
I'm quoting it again since it seems that my statement didn't come through clearly. I said it is just an illusion when people think [b]all mp5 want is for mp3/4 to move up so they can pound them down[/b]. To which you said you think they're right and you've done testing on it. How do you do tests on that? Give a questionnaire to mp5 about what they want? Observing and trying to read their minds?

I don't think that's what you mean, so of course I think you were talking about something else here?

I'm not saying that all their opinions are just deluded illusions, but I do think that the whole sentiment of "[b]let's not go to mp5, everyone there is just a monster waiting for us to click the wrong button "advance to mp5" so they can eat us up[/b]" is just an illusion. One that is constantly reinforced by people keep that keeps saying mp5 is a hell that fresh mp5s will never ever be able to survive and going there is the end of your character's career, thus leading to the thought that if people are trying to suggest something, it is just so they can get new food.

[Sephirah Caelum]

I disagree with the idea of MP-level as requirement to upgrade creatures mostly because I never had issues with full token max creatures on my stages as MP4 and MP3, and I wasn't at this stages long time ago.

My issues with the fighting system only started after alliance/MP5.

So if you wish to restrict something restrict the great stats, something like: if you have Xk of stats, you can't attack that player, because his stats are X/4. Maybe could be valid only to MP5, since from my point of view is where the problem is.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Sephirah Caelum