Concerning Lore and Stories n' stuff.

[Pipstickz]

So, as most everyone knows, Mur does not like "Lore", or stories that we write that use story mode characters or concepts or anything that may in any way seem official. At least, that's the definition I've come up with.

Fighting and stats (and somewhat less so, creatures) are unlimited; that aspect of the game is open-ended and has no set goal.
Lands, alliances, wars, quests and items are only limited by the community, which is in turn essentially unlimited; those aspects are open-ended as well.
So what is the set, predefined goal for players to achieve? Around when I started, I assumed it was either to become influential (RPC's were the sort of kings of the time, just there was more of them, and they had better powers...imagine that. Then of course there was (most of the) non RPC people in the AL, less special but still in some cases better than current kings: PWR), or story mode would progress and I would find all the answers along the way. As it turns out, neither of those are the goal as I see it now. So what is this crazy thing that we're meant to achieve? I believe that we are meant to find the answers.

In a similar fashion to our world long ago, we as the citizens of MD don't really know much. Questions like "How did we get here?", "What is Liquid Dust?" and infamous in it's own way: "What happened before us?" are like the "What makes the sun rise?" and "What's the world made of?" of MD. So how were those questions answered in our past? Through the cumulative efforts of many people over time. I can't help making the comparison, but Phoenyckz, or Ady, is sort of like our Galileo. He may not have been correct in his stories, but he tried, and now it's up to us to continue, there's only one thing in our way; the "ban" on Lore. Yeah, we certainly don't [b]need[/b] to know the history of the realm, or who laid the eggs that become Angiens, and those questions may not even HAVE answers, but the speculation itself can lead to other thoughts, other questions and other answers.

Information in MD is all stifled away, perhaps stored in the Notebooks of some of the thinkers, but nobody wants to share. Why not? Maybe they're afraid of being wrong, maybe they're afraid of giving spoilers, maybe they don't want to get hit by the Lore barrier, whatever. Perhaps MD is meant to be a test of individual insight, and we're all supposed to do it on our own, but if Mur can "punish" a few of us by just giving the answers to everyone together, then everyone should be allowed to work toward the answers together, and without Mur, should we not? So, is it not time to do away with the restriction of information, even if it's just guesswork or good storytelling? I certainly say it is.

So yeah, sorry for super long topic, but share opinions n' stuff, or just go find your answers, your theories.

[Luke27]

I maybe wrong but I think I remember that Mur ban the made-up information because it made us astray from what Mur wanted us to go to.

Let's say we are on a multiple-path or 3 path(to be specific) quest that Mur made for us then someone made a rumor that lead to another path, then that would make 4 paths. Then some of us may or may not go to the fourth path but those some that went to the fourth path would be going in a wrong direction.

To summarize:
We are going on a quest that was made by Mur and we need proper info from him not from some made-up history that could very much(very little) destroy the thing that Mur created.

[Aelis]

It's an interesting idea, and perhaps we don't even need to discuss ancient stuff. There are a lot of "actual" subjects we could question and theorize together.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like in the past (I'm not a veteran, so I'm just guessing by reading some old topics) this sort of "everybody speculating together" was a bit common. Guess it wouldn't hurt to try.


~Aelis

[Tarquinus]

[url="http://www.scienceandyou.org/articles/ess_02.shtml"]Eppur si muove[/url].

Pip, you and others will recall the "Age of the RPC", when quests were largely the responsibility of RPCs to create. That age is past, and now we are in what might be called the "Age of Kings", or, in my view, the Age of Scribes. For now, with access to MDscript and clickables, the door has been flung wide open to all players to create quests as they see fit. As nearly as I can tell, the kinds of quests written today fall into two broad categories: the puzzle quest and the "roleplay with me" quest. That's only a slight change, however, from the way things were before. Thankfully we no longer seem to encounter the "find me [x] adepts" quest, which used to be a blight on the face of MD.

Both kinds of contemporary quests suffer by varying degrees in not being all that connected to MD "canon". Is this the fault of the quest writers, or of the people who "get" MD (who, one would think, would be the most qualified people to write MD quests)? In my opinion, it's a little of both.

MagicDuel is a multi-layered allegory. It seems to be Mur's attempt to communicate with "players" via symbols and subtle cues. Story-based quests, such as the one I threw together for the death of Mya, are entertaining if well done, but don't address any of the deeper, root questions and mysteries of the "game". In my limited experience, puzzle-based quests don't, either. What's to be done?

When Mur imposed a "ban" on lore, he raised the bar for quest writers. The challenge now is to incorporate semiotics (the study of symbols) with MD "setting"-appropriate symbols and the actions and words of the community at large. This is not an easy thing to accomplish. I have been pondering how, exactly, to do it over several months, but so far I have not had any "eureka" moments of inspiration. I can hardly fault anyone else for having the same problem, and even less for writing a quest purely for entertainment's sake. The work of players to write quests should be respected.

So I think it comes down to echoing what you and Aelis have said. Let those who "get" MD come forth and partner with experienced quest writers to give us something that is edifying (educational or informative) as well as fun. MD gives us as players a tremendous amount of freedom, but that freedom comes with a responsibility - in the end, since we can all write quests, we players have no one to blame but ourselves if the quality of the quests available is not up to what we communally expect the MD standard to be. Mur is hard to contact, yes, but not impossible. There are people who [i]do[/i] understand some of the mysteries of the game: they are much easier to find, starting with the kings. Let the veterans help the quest writers, but let the writers seek the veterans and forge something from their partnership, something entertaining, symbolically resonant, and thought provoking.

[Chewett]

There isnt nesscarily a point whereby you reach and get a nice screen saying "you have won, congrats" Becuase MD isnt like that.

I suppose the overall goals are what you want to do. Your goal could be anything here.

[Kyphis the Bard]

For example, Metal Bunnies goals are to a) take over all of MD, and since he hasn't completed that he still plays, and b) to vex dst, which while he does that a lot is more of an ongoing thing than a finite goal

[Jubaris]

As Pip cleverly mentioned, our knowledge about realm can be compared to our knowledge on RL (thus the search for answers), so I say as well that our goal can be compared with our goal in RL - we don't have it known yet (or at least, we need to create it ourselves)

[Atrumist]

You found yourself in a situation where you look for the question, not for the answers itself. Come on, question the questions. Asking me you are on the right way, no worries. Take deep breath and relax

[Kafuuka]

I'm under the impression that a lot of people think there is such a thing as a single answer. Any book that does not lead to a single answer for every question raised and that was written well enough for people to like it, will lead to a dozen books discussing what really happened. Those things are not 'canon', nor are they dispised, unless people sell them as the one and only truth, even if the author of the original book was buried centuries ago and we can't ask which version is true, if any.

Tarquinus, you admit having little experience with quests. Since I monitor who participated in my quests, I know you never did. In particular you never tried 'The book of Time', which was explicitly advertised as an | Ark Mattarox quest. ie, a quest about a shade. If you claim kings, for whatever reasoning, know something about MD, then I think you should at least be interested in what a shade has to say? Not that I believe kings really know a lot. Two of them admitted the opposite already. As for myself, I have my answers to some of my questions. I've never had any long private conversations with Mur and I doubt I even want to know all of his questions and all of his answers. Some yes, perhaps even many, but all? I think not. I expect that is mutual, but we won't be certain unless he reads this.

[Tarquinus]

[quote name='Kafuuka' timestamp='1299267169' post='80038']Tarquinus, you admit having little experience with quests. Since I monitor who participated in my quests, I know you never did. In particular you never tried 'The book of Time', which was explicitly advertised as an | Ark Mattarox quest. ie, a quest about a shade.[/quote]
I admit my experience is limited, by which I mean I have tried only my peculiar cross-section of quests, many of them quite long ago.

[quote]If you claim kings, for whatever reasoning, know something about MD, then I think you should at least be interested in what a shade has to say? Not that I believe kings really know a lot. Two of them admitted the opposite already. As for myself, I have my answers to some of my questions.[/quote]
I'll have a look at your quests, then.

I don't think there is such a thing as a single answer to the mysteries of MD, but I know from experience that certain questions are encouraged while others, such as the ones cited by Pip, are discouraged. I also know from experience that the wrong sorts of quest writing can be wholly disavowed, at best, for their failure to align with the general vision of MD. When I refer to 'MD canon', I mean questions that have to do with the 'setting' of MD. At least two of the kings have experience asking those sorts of questions and would be good guides for quest writers who want to write in the idiom of MD and its mysteries. I mention them as a starting point for writers looking for people who 'get' MD - other such players will reveal themselves at their own discretion, though I think anyone who looks for them will find them without too much trouble.

[Pipstickz]

Chewett, Kyphis and Kafuuka: This isn't about finding "the one answer", or "the end of the game" (to me), it's about freedom of information. Sharing and enlightenment and all that.

For example, Kelle'tha Order. The purpose of the alliance is to research and find answers I assume, based on their unhidden forums. Now, they started...how long ago? And how many people know more than they did because of them? What I'm saying is that we don't need them, if we all get together and share our own ideas. We don't need to be right, we just need to be.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Pipstickz

[Luke27]

@Pipstickz: To be honest we will always need an organized and small group because if it's too big then it will be disorganized and then miscommunication, misunderstandings, and so on will come follow.

My point is there must be always a small part in our society that needs to be kept in check but I agree with you on information.

I suggest that there must be a weekly, monthly or even yearly update about information on MD but to be honest life ain't like that either it actually takes years for new to come by.

For example "Dragons" if I remember correctly they just found out remains recently and proved that there were creatures like those(I believe this to be true because I saw it in Discovery Channel ).

So to summarize:
Information is great if distributed correctly and deadly if distributed half-cooked.
And besides just have faith in [color="#ff0000"]Mur [/color]he knows what he's doing, maybe.

[Pipstickz]

Where's the fun in waiting for Mur?

[Brulant]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1299383925' post='80211']
Where's the fun in waiting for Mur?
[/quote]

Well, generally Mur makes everything chaotic and awesome when he gets around to it…
But it's more fun to blaze the trail

[Luke27]

Well look at what's happening now.

[color="#ff0000"]Mur[/color] makes everything chaotic and fun not like we can do the same.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1299372814' post='80183']
Chewett, Kyphis and Kafuuka: This isn't about finding "the one answer", or "the end of the game" (to me), it's about freedom of information. Sharing and enlightenment and all that.For example, Kelle'tha Order. The purpose of the alliance is to research and find answers I assume, based on their unhidden forums. Now, they started...how long ago? And how many people know more than they did because of them? What I'm saying is that we don't need them, if we all get together and share our own ideas. We don't need to be right, we just need to be.
[/quote]

What is the difference from sharing and englightening people, to having a page listing all the "englightened" information that people can just look at? When does research become looking at a list of "allowed" facts?

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1299372814' post='80183']
Chewett, Kyphis and Kafuuka: This isn't about finding "the one answer", or "the end of the game" (to me), it's about freedom of information. Sharing and enlightenment and all that.
[/quote]
There was a thread on that. I'll quote what you said [post='72638']there[/post]:
[i]"While I am of the opinion that it would be good for [b]some[/b] information to come to light, those who have it will most likely not be willing to share. That's just how it is, I s'pose."[/i]

[Pipstickz]

Chewett: I don't know. Why are we afraid to find out?

Kafuuka: Yes, that's the way it is and that's what I'd like to change. What is your point?

[Kafuuka]

My point mainly is that there already was a thread on that subject, which you read and contributed to with a fatalistic statement. The idea that you, a few months later, wish to persuade others to pursue an objective you didn't deem attainable back then, is ironic at best. On top of that you don't think all knowledge should be shared and never bothered to explain where to draw the line. How are we supposed to know what it is you suggest then? How exactly do you suggest these partially unspecified changes could be pursued?

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Kafuuka' timestamp='1299450673' post='80290']
My point mainly is that there already was a thread on that subject, which you read and contributed to with a fatalistic statement. The idea that you, a few months later, wish to persuade others to pursue an objective you didn't deem attainable back then, is ironic at best. On top of that you don't think all knowledge should be shared and never bothered to explain where to draw the line. How are we supposed to know what it is you suggest then? How exactly do you suggest these partially unspecified changes could be pursued?
[/quote]
Oh my, I contradicted myself, must mean I'm a terrible liar and all my goals are for my own personal gain.

To answer you honestly; do opinions not change? It has been almost a half-year since then, what makes you think that I won't have gained new information myself? If you are confused as to what I am suggesting with this thread, I suggest you read it over again, others seem to have it right.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1299462006' post='80302']
Oh my, I contradicted myself, must mean I'm a terrible liar and all my goals are for my own personal gain.

To answer you honestly; do opinions not change? It has been almost a half-year since then, what makes you think that I won't have gained new information myself? If you are confused as to what I am suggesting with this thread, I suggest you read it over again, others seem to have it right.
[/quote]
Certainly opinions can change. Just because it can doesn't mean it will or already has. I suppose I could give you the benefit of doubt, however you are mostly reluctant to answer my questions. eg. Going on your 'new information' hypothesis I am met with the question why you haven't shared this new insight. Currently it looks to me you went from 'I don't think it is possible so I don't want to waste my time' to 'I have no idea whether it is possible and hope others do.' At least the other thread contained practical suggestions. Your analysis of why people don't want to share ideas is not exactly providing a solution.

As for others reading it right, I can easily point out two renown people who got it wrong, according to you yourself. I can't say I am wording this nicely, but if you want a good discussion, it sure would help if everybody managed to understand your words without having to read them five times. The only suggestion I see is 'we all get together and share our ideas.' Ideas relating to what? Everything? When? Who will attend? Where? Who will organize it, moderate it? What format?

[Pipstickz]

I don't want a good "discussion", I want people to think. What's the best way to get ideas? Sharing.

Now Kafuuka, if you're done I would appreciate it if you stopped posting here. If you're not done, I would still appreciate it.

[Yrthilian]

Right so let me see if i got this

you basically want players to work together on question or answering questions with questions.
So the basic run down is you would like to see players interact more about MD and see if a push
for understanding can be made. But also know that some players wont share what they think
they understand.

This has nothing to do with Lore from what i can see. (this is only my opinion)
The issue with Lore in the past is it was not used as it was suppose to be.
Some players decided they didn't have enough information and decided to add some to
suite their ideas and their ways. Some even tried to rewrite the Lore and THAT is why
it got removed.

The Lore hold clues and nothing more. You cannot rewrite it or say you knew the character
when in fact those characters were long gone before any of use started in the realm. (NOTE this refer to
players from my time on in the realm some player are old enough to possible know the characters but i doubt it)
If you truly look at the Lore you will find some clues to the realm but be warned you should not use it
as part of your characters history. ONLY use it as reference and nothing more that is the purpose of it.

There is much more to look at too in the realm but most have decided to ignore it or just have not yet seen it.
I am always happy to talk with people that have ideas I know only little in the realm and still have much to learn
yes i am experienced but i bet there are some newer players whom have a better understanding than I do about MD.
Just because one is a VET does not automatically mean they know better.

The idea of talking has been pushed around many time in the past. But some people don't wish to share some cant share
that is the way of the realm. I for one wont tell you think but if you happen to step in the right direction or at least
start in the right direction i may help nudge you along depending on the time and the information.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1299546936' post='80329']
I don't want a good "discussion", I want people to think. What's the best way to get ideas? Sharing.

Now Kafuuka, if you're done I would appreciate it if you stopped posting here. If you're not done, I would still appreciate it.
[/quote]
You cannot at the same time ask people to share ideas and to refrain from sharing opinions, which are by definition a subset of ideas. Neither will you get people to 'think' if they supply ideas without arguments, ie discussion. The only method to manage such inconsistensies is to add restrictions: you don't want this kind of discussion, you don't want ideas to be debated here in this thread. Sadly I did ask you the typical 'what' and 'where' and 'who' and 'how' questions and you've refused to answer me explicitly. Currently it looks like it is 'spreading ideas that pipstickz considers useful for his purposes' on 'the forum, in this thread' by 'people that agree with pipstickz' and moderated by 'chewett and co' (by default).

Your appreciation is not my concern. People have shot down far more clearly formulated concepts on this forum before. I see no reason not to reiterate my questions and force you to answer them. The most important being 'how'.

[Brulant]

My quick take.

'what' Sharing ideas and not being afraid to share them. This doesn't mean giving away secrets that you've discovered, it just means that you're open to talking about them.
'where' Everywhere.
'who' Everyone.
'how' You talk. You think. You explore.