Petition for Enforcement of the Sparring Ground

[Princess Katt]

Yesterday there was a somewhat heated discussion about what should be done, if anything about enforcing the Sparring Ground rules in Marble Dale Park. It was suggested that someone open a NEW forum topic about this issue and I said I would do it if no one else beat me to it. So here goes:

The problem (as I see it) is that there are, at any given time, a few players who have read the rules, understand the rules, and refuse to follow them at all, which seems disrespectful of everyone else. I am not talking about someone who makes a mistake-- I, myself, have almost attacked someone without asking just by accident, not noticing that they were not idle. Nor is it even about someone who may attack one person and then leave the park-- certainly that is disrespecting the rules, but these people are really just an annoyance. The folks that are the problem are those who sit in the park for hours, attacking all the weak players without asking until the other players are all bled dry and then either do not respond to pleas for mercy or else just say they do not care. One current player even blocked his PMs so that folks could not try to reason with him. These are the players in question.

Whenever this problem has come up in chat, there are various responses. Some say things like "grow some balls" or "suck it up". To these people I would say that I really do not believe that those of us complaining are whining. I certainly have had my share of losses, and when someone has attacked me outside the park-- even when it was someone who had not been obeying the park rules previously-- I have not complained at all. I just think that everyone should be expected to obey the rules as most of us do.

And a further point is this: people do not ONLY go to the park to fight or be attacked. It has become a gathering place for everyone to hang out and rub elbows with other active players. And if you have to start avoiding the place for fear of attack by a few bad apples, then the feeling of community is spoiled.

To sum up, this is a petition for there to be SOME enforcement of the rules of the Sparring Ground, and for there to be SOME repercussion for those few extreme players who flagrantly ignore the rules.

I understand that Shadowseeker had tried some enforcement in the past and for whatever reason, folks did not report offending players to him. He got discouraged and quit. So maybe the enforcement should be a small group of players? I think anyone trying to enforce the rules should be at least an MP5, but perhaps that is a good thing to discuss.

Also open for discussion is a fitting punishment. Perhaps someone ignoring the rules should be unable to attack in the park for a limited amount of time? More time if they go back to doing it afterward? Or maybe there is something that makes more sense that I've not thought of.

Anyway, I hope that some kind of positive change will come from this. Please do add your thoughts and comments and please SPEAK UP if you support this idea!

Thanks,
Princess Katt

[Chewett]

What kind of repercussion do you suggest? It will never be an official rule, nor is it very likely that people who "guard" it will get spells again because of the rather bad ways things when last time they were given spells.

To play Devils Advocate, Why should you FORCE people to abide by rules you make up? Just because you want to play one way, Doesnt mean you have the right to FORCE others to play a different way. What stops them saying you should be stopped enforcing the rules?

[Fyrd Argentus]

A petition is generally directed TO someone, and I'm pretty sure no higher authority is going to intervene here.

What you really are doing, or need to do, is recruit a number of like-minded folks who can formulate a plan of action to address the problem.

I personally have no game-mechanics-based method for affecting unallied MP3 and MP4. All I can offer is the "public humiliation and shunning" scenario I've tried to outline, for those who do not respond to sweet reason and civil communications of course.

What other people of similar MP level can do, or threaten, is of course to cap the players so they no longer get anything from hitting on you. A fair system whereby the accused is confronted, given a last chance, then condemned, would be in order.

[Princess Katt]

Chewett, I did suggest a repercussion. But, like I said, maybe someone else has a better idea.

And I didn't make up the rules... I realize SOMEONE did, but they were there when I signed up. I think the rules are reasonable, but if there are those who think that they are not, then perhaps they should open their own topic to get the rules changed. That seems fair.

[Chewett]

So you are suggesting to limit how people play because they play differently to you?

Would you like it if people were to tell you you cant do X and Y. You can do what you want, as Mur as has said he wont enforce social rules so i dont see how something like attack stopping will be implemented.

The rules are social rules, you do not have to follow them if you dont want to. Which is why some people dont.

[Princess Katt]

Well, there are things I can't do, and I have to abide by that. Sometimes I don't like it.

OK, Chewett, clearly you disagree and that's your right. I know that there are those who do disagree with this, I'm only hoping that the ones who do agree with me-- at least in some fashion-- will speak up.

I wouldn't have posted if it hadn't been at other's suggestion.

[Shadowseeker]

Note: I suggested this, but only since Katt here kept insisting that I [i]should have continued[/i]. Since I don't feel like it, I told her to try to organize the staff she so desperately wants herself, and caling for help here may work.

However I have to say that the way she asks for this, I only see a repeat of Calyx, and thus do not support this. I'm not against this either though, I'm just watching now to see if people from the park will actually manage a semi working structure that will not go against anything that I believe in.

(Don't forget how insulting people in the park are.)

[Passant the Weak]

First of all, I have to say that I like and enjoy the sparring ground at park (I am MP3).

That being said, I acknowledge it is a player established feature and it is in no way part of the game rules. That means that we, players, are usually invited to follow sparring ground rules, but do not HAVE to do so to be compliant with the game's rules. I like that: if a character has made a purpose of not following the rules, I have no problem with that.

Thus, I don't vote for any enforced rule in the park (through game machanism, or whatever).

It does not mean, I am against retaliating to the people who purposely don't respect the rules. There are a few things I would suggest.

1. Set up a defense that will not harm you when you are chatting at the park. There are a lot of ways for not being too severely impacted by an unwanted attack: use them and share them with people who are in the same situation as you.

2. Organise a counter attack with people who feel like you.
That is the hard part. Because the offender may be very strong (he will be very strong usually, if he last long). I am facing teh case currently with a MP3 who delibarately breaks the rule and attacks in the park, and he has made himself very strong by using tokens on basic creatures. I have not found a way to beat him yet, but if I manage, I promise he won''t find rest fo a big while. And if that means buying tokens myself... well... not sure yet but you get the point.
And if I don't succeed, I will just you tactic #1 for as long as needed.


In summary: organise a resistance group, find the one who can beat the offender, let him kill the offender's defense ritual, then follow up for massive attack with all the people who feel offended, so that the offender gets stuck with no vitality.
Yes, that requires time and organisation. Yes, that is risky... but after all we are in a PVP game... and it's up to us to manage that kind of situation. But IMO don't try to set up some enforcing rules... it's not the purpose of the game and shouldn't be.

My 2 cts of course.

[TTLexceeded]

I totally agree with chewett but i wll give you one more thing to think about.
Getting attack while you dont want to in the park can actually teach you some things as to how rituals work and why it is important to always be prepared. I am bored of seeing all these people who think that the concept of def is to give the other person non damage win... I mean yea when i attack and break your combo ritual (on my first attack) then that is your problem not mine.
You can either learn from this mistake, grow some balls and retaliate, or suck it up. Like it or not MD (as a game and as a fighting system) gives everybody an equal chance to be "good" at it, but that doesnt mean that everybody will.

The rules state clearly that they are not enforceable. respecting them or not is just a matter of good will.
Its your decision to fight or not. You dont want to get attacked? Either dont have any creatures or dont revive them. Dont try to make the park a semi-sanctuary...

[Knozz]

I'm suffering the same as Passant, and believe that is from the same person as well.

What I believe that can be done is a counter-attack force that will bring him to 0 VE, but that ay need the help of our bosses for spell buffs, as the person in question is using tokens agains us. (One attack hits for almost 1k damage)

The more, the merrier... so we should find a team that might put these guys in line, nothing against them, of course... but if they bring me to 0 VE every time, why not bringing they too so they feel it?

Count me in, if we will make a team.

[Princess Katt]

I am certainly willing to be part of a team or help however I can if that is the best (or only) solution. I feel that I'm a weak fighter myself, so not sure what help I can be.

Shadowseeker, I would not want to see authority misused. But did you ever think that maybe what you did was actually working? Maybe you were getting less and less complaints because there was less to complain about. Just a thought.

[Maebius]

(edit for typos)
My thoughts on the matter are that I seem to side with Chewett and TTL. (yet also understand the original complaint. It is irritating for some people, understandably)

The park has rules, that are socially developed, and not enforceable by any "game mechanics" or single authority figure.
While I agree that continued random attacks by an individual are sometimes a pain, I personally have defenses set that give me a win about half the time, against random folks attacking me.

Just ask Pothos and some others, when it goes to random def, I want to win in Def sometimes, which is why I have the creatures I have. I do not set a long chain of single trees intentionally. If I am in hte mood to lose a lot, I would change up my defenses. But most days, even if I want losses, I don't want them "Exclusively". I like to make folks consider the rick of attacking me. If they ask, I will set a single tree or two, that's it.

You want to just sit in the park and chat with folks, grab a friend, it is quite easy to kill off your creatures and leave them un-revived for a while, if social chatter is your goal for idling in the park.

If you want to train, grab a friend and train. If you want to do both at the same time, realize that at any time some clown can come at you with the mallet of his creatures and smack you. It may not be "Fair", but it is "possible" with the current rules of MD, and their intentional open-endedness.

You want to retaliate against someone, there are ways. Even the loreroot guards have a weakness (that I havn't found yet, but many people claim is easy once you know it). Find that weakness, and exploit it with your own creature selection.
Or team up and give that person XP. There are simple rituals to do so, if you understand the combat system.

Try to make the Fenth's Press the new hang out of social chatter by getting all your friends together there. Or Windy's Pub that seems quiet lately.

If the "abusive park violators" continue to just troll the park and attack at will after being XP capped, for no "in-game benefit" and increase of skills, then re-address the situation. Until then, use the options at our disposal.

As for MP4, the situation is a bit more complicated, but there are by no means "no options except making ParkPolice to enforce it".

In interested pondering,
-Maebius

Edited March 18, 2011 by Maebius

[Knozz]

@Edit for being wrong in one thing

Maebius, are you talking about this?

Creature Experience reward for Kz - Winning player
Player is at max xp limit, no xp reward

If so... he is attacking and yes, he is XP capped.

Here is his tokens:

Applying Kz's Creature Tokens at 90%
Grasan I's creature tokens [claw1]
Aramor Warrior's creature tokens [claw2]
[claw2] Aramor Warrior gets 958 attack and 0 regeneration based on Principles
Grasan I's creature tokens [claw1]
Aramor Warrior's creature tokens [claw2]
[claw2] Aramor Warrior gets 958 attack and 0 regeneration based on Principles
Grasan I's creature tokens [claw1]
Aramor Warrior's creature tokens [claw2, claw1]
[claw2] Aramor Warrior gets 958 attack and 0 regeneration based on Principles

And I think this is the one attacking Passant as well (Just a thought)... and maybe some others.

He has MAX Honor too, and seem to attack just for 'seeing my enemy creatures dead', as he get no benefit from it.

Am I wrong in any point?

Edited March 18, 2011 by Knozz

[Eon]

I have sat by for far too long while you lower mp's complained about every little attack on you, then use disrespectful language toward the person expecting him to change his ways. The park rules are player made rules, not the official game rules. I have recently seen people speak about the rules as though they were set in stone from the very beginning of MD, then when someone states that he will continue to train as he wants because he isn't breaking an official rule, he is called an idiot. Often, people say even ruder things than that. Now since you guy's seem to enjoy complaining so much I have decided to help you out with that.

If you haven't figured it out yet, Kz is one of my accounts. I enjoy playing characters that others consider evil, the more people who dislike them the better. How am I suppose to be considered evil and hated if I follow your made up rules? Yes, I could try another approach at that, but it so fun and effective this way. If I am not mistaken, players also consider MD a role playing game. If Eon and Kz's role conflicts with how you would like to play MD, too damn bad. I dislike seeing most of your conversations in chat, you don't see me telling you to stop though.

Kz will attack you a lot less if you don't complain about his attack's. He'll do 1-2 runs through the mp3's and if you don't complain then he won't attack you anymore. If you decide to complain about his attack then he will give you many more to complain about. I am also working on his combo, so it's not like I am attacking for absolutely no reason, though I would if I felt like it.

Passant the weak: Hmm, sorry, the smart KZ has broken my defense, so no healing for you for a while guys *shrugs*

I thought Passant's response to being attacked by me wasn't rude whatsoever so I will no longer be attacking him, unless he acts like the others later on.

Continue to yell "Kz, I am not idle!", I don't care.

You should just be happy as many people follow the community rules as they do, they are NOT mandatory.

You want to get back at me? Do your worst

[Knozz]

I wrote my past reply just to ponder about Maebius last words, because I don't know how can you see the XP Cap on someone... and my plan of action will be the same as Passant. I'll try to get you one day, not sure when, buy I may find a way to win as everyone always says that a strategic ritual is better at winning than just going brute strenght.

Not sure why everyone keep getting pumped up after a few posts... my English is not good and I may be rude sometimes because of this... but I don't want to see angry people fighting each other.

My initial and final plan is still to make a team to defeat you, Eon. And it is open to public.

I hope you didn't get my words the wrong way... and I may understand your point when I turn into a veteran, someday.

But until than... I'll try to learn how to work my way past strong guys like Kz, your alt.

So... I'm sorry if I made a misundestanding here. That is all I can say.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Knozz

[Curiose]

Just to point something out that you younger players don't seem to realize.

When you become mp5, there is no way for you to stop people from attacking you, unless you do the following:
1. Kill off all your creatures vitality
2. Sacrifice them all.

Obviously, the park is a good way for you to learn how to fight and whatever, but as BOTH Shadow and Eon have told you: If you have asked nicely, have RESPECTED THE PLAYERS INSTEAD OF WHINING AND ACTING LIKE INCONSIDERATE PRICKS then maybe, just maybe, you would have a better result.

I respect Eon, and therefore, when I do have a creature up, he is kind enough to leave trees for me and let me know so that if I decide I want to fight, I can do so and gain a few wins. The thing you people do not realize is that just because you are acting like goody little two shoes and following the rules, that doesn't make you any less a bad guy than the person attacking you.

[Knozz]

I'll start my last post in this thread with a simple phrase that I think suits the topic here: "I'm sorry.". Specially if I was rude, whinned, acted like an inconsiderate prick or even sounded as a bad guy.

I admit I might have been wrong in the beginning because I was kinda upset (I don't know if I did all that up there, but I prefer it this way) because of when I was get the feeling of the game and learning about my creatures my creatures got BANGED really bad without me knowing of tokens, alts and all that. I think most of the MP3's would be upset like me and maybe some of them turned really all that Curiose said. It's wrong to get mad at someone just because I game, everybody knows that, but work, personal stress, life problems and other things can generate an high amount of stress capable of making people getting angry easy. (I saw some examples here, I think.)

So in the middle of this thread I though: "He is not going against the rules... so I'll just surpass him.". And intended to make a team to defeat Kz's creatures just for the sake of winning over something that is incredibly strong (At least for a MP3). And that's why I took Passant words and decided that a team would be good enough. He is like invincible, but with effort one can defeat him... can't we?

Well, as I said in the beginning of this post I'm sorry if I turned into what Curiose wrote. But my objective is still to be able to defeat Kz, it would feel like beating a really big secret boss in a game. Can I at least try it with some time? It will be fun, I think.

That's all folks. Let's try to get over things and be happier. The game is waiting for us.

@Edit just for this, as I said I wouldn't post again:

TTL: I didn't start the thread in question. Read carefully.

Curiose: See what I said? People keeps mourning over the dead, that is where most intrigues on MD Forum comes from... I think the topic is already over for some time. Isn't it?

I'm only seeing people posting excuses for offending people that already stopped the topic, apologized and so... is this fun? ... don't really know.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Knozz

[TTLexceeded]

Hmmm this thread must seem like christmas to EON. Hell he is right, and hell he is going to keep on attacking you. Oh and best wishes to your attempts of hurting him. But if you already plan on retaliating why would you start a topic asking for protection?
Hmmm i think you are indeed cry babys with empty threats...

[xrieg]

1. MD is a community and the less rock-hard 'dos' and 'donts' the better
2. As was already mentioned: if there are players that bahave in an unacceptable manneer in your opinion you are entitled to assemble a group to feel the person in question unwelcome (but see below)
3. About inconsiderate pricks... people are different - some just are inconsiderate pricks period. They are more often among abusers than abused, though. Still, true enough - if one asks to follow some community guildelines and is rude about it, should not be surprised that attacks do not cease

EDIT: PS and it's politeness and common sense (you are asking for a favour really). Respect is something you do not get authomatically...

Edited March 19, 2011 by xrieg

[Curiose]

The fact stands, that because you guys are so eager to jump the gun and put a label on somebody, you don't realize the harm you are inflicting on yourselves. That is the exact case that we are seeing now.

So perhaps, maybe in the future instead of saying: Omg, he keeps attacking me, what an idiot! Maybe you should bite your tongue for once and PM the person. Is it that hard to use your brains and a small ounce of respect?

[Princess Katt]

OK, I think the point is that it doesn't help to insult people no matter what "side" of the discussion you're on.

I'm pretty sure that in the last two situations, a PM would not have helped. But, I confess to having tried to converse in chat before PM-ing, and I'll try to do the latter in the future.

[Curiose]

One thing you must learn is there is a fine line between being insulting, and being blunt. If I was being insulting, there are quite a slew of words I would say.

Eon, I know, actually will NOT talk in chat. He does so only on rare occasions. His reason for it is his own reasoning, and I am quite sure that there are a few others whom will not talk in chat.

Edit: TTL pretty much summed this up. Grow some balls, and grow up yourself. If you don't like how it is now, then you certainly will not like MP5.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Curiose

[Tipu]

Princes Katt plz give the names of the MP4 players(pm ingame or forums) Who do break SG rules.
I will take care of them hehe
first thru peaceful means if not then by inflecting pains hehe. sorry I have no powers over mp3/mp5 players.
Recently i stop one powerfull mp4 player from breaking SG rules and now he follows it.
Iam a citizen of MB and i respect the rules posted at MDP.
I congrats u Katt as a citizen of MB u did the right thing MDP terriory is within MB terriorty and it the duty of every MB citizens to make sure others follow it.

Iam trying to a make powerfull mp4 MDP Guards.
Will be trying to include Nad and Rabert in ur ranks.

But first let me know the Dojorule breakers names. I will not disclose it.

Respect and Honor.

[TTLexceeded]

You are asking people to rat others to you? Wear a hood raise the finger and condemn the person next to them because they do not fit your precious social rules? Are you so obsessed with creating your perfect little community? Last time i checked the nazi's where doing this. (Maybe a bit too extreme comparisson i admit, but the reason is pretty much the same, and the punishment as well).
But i am done with reason, i guess you are incapable of understanding it.

So proudly and for all to see, not in a pm or something i declare myself a violator. Do your worse tipu, or anybody else who wants to.
Good luck on creating a society of stupid mindless robots who without protection are incapable of doing anything.
An action like this will make the park more a place for group hugs than training.
Oh and the word training has only one thing certain about it: That you will get hurt.

There is no Respect nor Honor in what you hope to achieve, but you probably want to be a savior so badly that your arrogance doesnt allow you to see that.
Sincerely Yours (Yes it is ironic)
TTL

Edited:Spelling mistakes

Edited March 19, 2011 by TTLexceeded

[xrieg]

TLL I would read more about nazis before using extreme comparisons. The 30s was exactly the time when 'stupid and mindless' mob phobias were channeled. What you are advocating have never resulted in growth in development - it's a pure anarchy _utopia_. And the problem with anarchists is that they are either forming a gang with a clear unspoken laws within the gang (direct violation of their own principles)... or start whining the moment they realize they are underdogs :-P (essentially we do have anarchy everywhere :-P only governments are the biggest gangs :-P). Pack animal like human tends to self-organize.
Park violators say 'we do not follow Sparring Ground guildelines'. They are perfectly entitled to do so. And so is Tipu entitled to find himself a hobby of enforcing these rules. And so are all MP4s entitled to report violators to Tipu.