Reality or Not Reality?

[Yrthilian]

Ok this is just based on my own personal opinions. some things i say my offend some i am sorry if it does but i wanted to
make this topic for some time and well why not now


Well i have been in MD for a long time as many know and through my time here i have seen many a personality. I have a view of
MD and what is it about as many of you do. But i am bothered by some of the things i see. So i wanted to write about what is
the reality of MD and what is just a persona.

Remember this is just my opinion but i am also interested in seeing others views.

MD to me is a realm without races.

What i mean by this is that MD does not officially have Faeries, Werewolves, Dragons, Dwarf's, Elf's
(i am sure there are many others i have left out but you get the idea). As far as i can see MD has only one real race but it is assumed
the race is Human. I know I know you are thinking what about the creatures in MD like the shade's and Angiens. I will try to explain this
in a bit but first i want to explain what i mean by the persona's.

MD has a level of reality within it. Now recently it can be seen more so with the reality rating. So say for example 20 people see you
state you are a dragon and fly away. Some of them will respond and wave or something. That give a level of reality that reality is only a
temporary thing it only last for that location. The player may keep stating they are a dragon but this is only from their persona. Some will still
only view that player as a human BUT will treat that player to their own reality.

My next statement is only to give an example and no offence is meant by it in anyway.

In RL we treat people based on their mental state. When we come across someone whom has a mental disability we automatically treat them different.
when we see someone who has a physical disability we treat them differently. We as a people tend to allow people to be what they want to be and say OK

So in MD we do something similar. We allow the people to say they are something, but do we in reality accept that they are what they say they are?

So now about the creatures of MD.

The creatures from the first day you are told are a part of you. They are in a way part of your personality. When you get a creature it is bound to you
and it powered by you in MD. The creatures are only made real by you. Creatures in MD are different they are not your typical creature they are part of you
They are your essence. That is why only a few type can be seen walking the land. Like the Knator he and the shades are the only creatures that can be seen in
the realm. They have achieved a level of reality that we all agree on.

So to me when a player states they are a Dragon, Werewolf, faeries or any of the other mythical creatures I am sorry but i cannot agree that you are as that to me
is not the reality of MD i am more than happy to accept that it is your persona but i will not view you as anything other then a Human in the realm of MD.

I will say it again This is just my personal opinion and my current view of MD.

I can also admit that i may not have explained my point of view perfectly but using words is hard to do in this way.
Please do comment i am open to hearing others points of view

Yrth

[Yrthilian]

Hmm am i to assume by the lack of responses that every one agrees with me on this?

[Sharazhad]

[color="#2e8b57"][i]Sorry Yrth I just saw your post now. [/i][/color]

[quote]So to me when a player states they are a Dragon, Werewolf, faeries or any of the other mythical creatures I am sorry but i cannot agree that you are as that to me
is not the reality of MD i am more than happy to accept that it is your persona but i will not view you as anything other then a Human in the realm of MD.[/quote]

[color="#2e8b57"][i]By persona do you mean Projected Character in game? Because yes, not everyone chooses to be human in game. Its a given that all the users behind the characters are human unless there is a chimp banging away at keyboard and goes behind the username: {_____insert username here____}

The way I see it, MD gives the user the platform to re-create themselves , via the Personal Pages, and portray themself in whichever way they would like to.
In no way in real life am I an elf nor do I resemble one. I dont expect you to believe that, but I do expect you to believe that I am an elf in game because that is the way I CHOOSE to portray myself in MD. Why would you not believe me when I say I am?

[/i][/color][quote]The creatures from the first day you are told are a part of you. They are in a way part of your personality. When you get a creature it is bound to you
and it powered by you in MD. The creatures are only made real by you. Creatures in MD are different they are not your typical creature they are part of you
They are your essence. That is why only a few type can be seen walking the land. Like the Knator he and the shades are the only creatures that can be seen in
the realm. They have achieved a level of reality that we all agree on. [/quote]

[color="#2e8b57"][i]I dont believe that the creatures are part our personality and essence. By being bound to us, I see it as the character and user that are responsible for the well being of the creature. My characters VE (for example) would refill automatically, but my creature's doesnt - it takes V.E from my Character (not my own RL energy) in order to replenish it. How we choose creatures could be a reflection of our RL personality, but in no way would I believe that my grassan is part of my essence or my personality.






[/i][/color]

[Ravenstrider]

Story mode clearly states you are projected into MD from your RL self. Yes, our characters are a version of ourselves, but no, you can't be an elf from Middle Earth (or wherever)...

You can assume a form that resembles an elf, or one that looks like a dragon, but that doesn't make you a dragon with history of burning villages in Fairytale medieval England.

About creatures not regaining VE with counters: Do you know how much processing time would it take for the server to readjust values of VE of thousands of creatures every twelve minutes or so? Some things should be looked at from a practical view point as well as the idea one.

I agree with Yrth in almost everything he said. Creature reality is an iffy subject that I don't know much about. But I agree they are a part of ourselves. I like to think of it as reintegrating some of our own characteristics into our character... Or as a metaphore for changing ourselves due to interaction with the world around us. Shades only attack us after we bind some creatures to ourselves. Might be a practical thing, and yet it might not.
It's very strange how some creatures have a distinct human characteristic as their main quality. Revenge, Hunger, Posesivity, Torment, etc ...


Sharazhad, wanting MD to be a fairy tale land doesn't mean it should be. It's not real if one person still thinks you're imagining things and has arguments to support his or her claim.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Ravenstrider

[Jubaris]

as much as someone wants MD to be new Middle Earth, it isn't.
I was at start a bit frustrated about some things in MD regarding realm's background - not enough presented data, axioms about realm, for you to build on... but later on, you realize that it has to be so.
My perception is that our characters represent our spirits, essences, souls... Just, "aspect of RL Ravenstrider" if you get the point.
So MD is pretty much related with RL, it isn't some fictional world "far away"... It's difficult to present my intuition clearly to go further into this, otherwise I would make a better "picture".
Those characters should represent our nature, and it would be unrealistic for our characters to know they are spirits and that they have a RL self somewhere out there

My opinion is that it is ok for someone to form their aspect into a wolf or such, but my opinion would be that it is just a symbolic transformation, representing your need to distance yourself from the world, community and such... getting back to primal instincts and their tranquility of thoughts... In any case, it shouldn't represent in any way your "physical" strength. You can't pretend that you are dragon and that you can eat everyone, or that you're the best frikkin' archer in all the land.

Regarding imagining things, I will get to the subject of RP a bit - you are RPing when you are leader of Knights of the Bell, when you DO something in this realm and people acknowledge you for that, but you aren't RPing (in MD) when you say you are a pro dancer, or that you can throw fireballs (when in fact, you don't have no spells to cast)... Well, you are RPing, but you are RPing a disordered lunatic, not a fireball caster

Regarding creatures, when I posed some questions about their nature, Mur replied to me that the creatures are manifestations of ourselves. Simple answer yet it checks you back on the right path of the question again.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Rhaegar Targaryen

[Maebius]

[quote name='Ravenstrider' timestamp='1302099984' post='82014']
Story mode clearly states you are projected into MD from your RL self. Yes, our characters are a version of ourselves, but no, you can't be an elf from Middle Earth (or wherever)...
(snip)
Sharazhad, wanting MD to be a fairy tale land doesn't mean it should be. It's not real if one person still thinks you're imagining things and has arguments to support his or her claim.
[/quote]


I've viewed the realm as a somewhat mixture of both Ravenstrider's comments and yet make allowances for the occasional elf or dragon to manifest as well in the realm, even if filtered through the perception of a non-sane perception. (not meant as an insult, belief in being a dragon means you [b]are[/b] a dragon, with the same Authority as if others share the belief in your Dragonness with others, and Raven's belief that you are not.
This is a both/and world, not an either/or, in my mind.

As for creatures, I believe them to be also both extensions of our faceted personality, in an allegorical sense, AND individual "pets" who maintain an existence quite apart from our own. I will have to write out these thoughts more fully, since it's difficult to put into short words, and my opinion is ever-evolving the more time I spend in this MagicDuel realm.

[xrieg]

I did some thinking about reality and interactions in MD for sasha lilias's quest. I was planning to open a new thread - but is seems to fit well.
My approach:
We are what we project - and what is game community accepted. Game community here is abstract; depends on and defines character strength: minor characters may define their role for few fellow chars, strong characters actions and roles are recognized and accepted or rejected by far broader players spectrum. Some actions and roles are ultimately recognized - by game mechanics itself (ie. spells). Consistent projection in MD is either just RL image, usually spectator in MD world - or a carefully defined construct (spirit). Body is something that allows spirit to interact with the world and build the role.
Consequently:
1. Single player may project multiple spirits - each individual and each with different role (alts). However, unless it is done carefully, they are all essentially multiple bodies sharing a single spirit and each character is weaker because of sharing spirit. Even though they have different names, avys and crits they are essentially one and the same spirit and are recognized as such
2. Body cannot be hurt externally (unless: by game mechanics refusing access - death) - it is the spirit that either follows RP of somebody else and accepts action's consequences, or rejects them.
3. Every spirit shapes his body - but the body and other bodies exist only in spirit's micro-MD. Some bodies are just some blurred objects, other are barely registered.
3a. Strenth may be defined by means of likeness of body in own micro-MD - and in other spirit's micro-MDs. So - anybody can start grunting 'me big, me cyclop', but cannot force anybody to accept that image. Most probably, for most ppl they will remain just a chat polluting things.
3b. Obviously, the more 'realistic', consequently developed, and RPing in character, the more probable is role/ body acceptance by other players.
3c. (naturally from 2,3 ) Any character's action coming from assumed body and its form may be outright rejected - by refusing to go along or body definition rejection

[Yrthilian]

[quote name='Sharazhad' timestamp='1302098605' post='82010']
[color="#2e8b57"][i]Sorry Yrth I just saw your post now. [/i][/color]



[color="#2e8b57"][i]By persona do you mean Projected Character in game? Because yes, not everyone chooses to be human in game. Its a given that all the users behind the characters are human unless there is a chimp banging away at keyboard and goes behind the username: {_____insert username here____}

The way I see it, MD gives the user the platform to re-create themselves , via the Personal Pages, and portray themself in whichever way they would like to.
In no way in real life am I an elf nor do I resemble one. I dont expect you to believe that, but I do expect you to believe that I am an elf in game because that is the way I CHOOSE to portray myself in MD. Why would you not believe me when I say I am?

[/i][/color][/quote]

It is not a case of belief but more a case of reality of the realm. When i say persona i mean the persona of the character in MD. yes MD gives a platform to reinvent yourself. But there are in my view that is no basis to be a mythical creature. I don't see that as an option in MD. No place in MD information does it even mention being a mythical creature. Remember this is just my opinion on this. MD has a level of reality this to me means you need everyone and i meen everyone in MD to agree that there is such a thing as an elf. That is the whole point of the MD reality.

I am not saying you cannot be an elf i am just saying i don't see the existence of elf's in MD or any of the other mythical creatures.

[quote]

[color="#2e8b57"][i]I dont believe that the creatures are part our personality and essence. By being bound to us, I see it as the character and user that are responsible for the well being of the creature. My characters VE (for example) would refill automatically, but my creature's doesnt - it takes V.E from my Character (not my own RL energy) in order to replenish it. How we choose creatures could be a reflection of our RL personality, but in no way would I believe that my grassan is part of my essence or my personality.
[/i][/color]
[/quote]

The creatures in Game are bound to you. They are part of you. When we start in the beginning it states that much those creatures become part of you and represent you in many ways that to this day most players still have yet to understand or even realise. Every one things of the creatures as pets. Sorry but they are not pets they are more of an aspect of your personality.

This whole thing of reality from my view has been so distorted and new players never get a chance to see the real MD reality because of this.
For example back when renavoid came back and started his quest not one player realised what was wrong. How can a Drachorn be a player? ALL people did was try and play with
the drac when they should have realised the drac was in fact one of the last fragment of renavoids mind and the last link to bringing him back. Hell i even spelt it out in chat.

Because of players saying they are this or that and not plan old human the reality of MD has been smudged. Only on rare occasions can a creature been noted as a player. Like the knator but and the shade's but there is a reason for that but again because of the unreality merging with the reality of MD the new players don't get to see this and figure things out for them self.

This is by no meens an attack on you Sharazhad there are many in game whom claim to be mythical creatures and this is my own personal opinion in regards to MD reality. I could be completely wrong in my view and i am willing to be open minded but i need to see a really good proper reason.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1302029941' post='81926']
MD to me is a realm without races.
<...>
As far as i can see MD has only one real race but it is assumed the race is Human.
<...>
This is by no meens an attack on you Sharazhad there are many in game whom claim to be mythical creatures and this is my own personal opinion in regards to MD reality. I could be completely wrong in my view and i am willing to be open minded but i need to see a really good proper reason.
[/quote]
You ask, therefore I'll deliver.
The AL acknowledges robot dogs which bark in Spanish. No elves have been sighted yet, but it clearly refutes your human only premise, even if you add exceptions for the aramor, shade and knator.

[Yrthilian]

[quote name='Kafuuka' timestamp='1302118630' post='82044']
You ask, therefore I'll deliver.
The AL acknowledges robot dogs which bark in Spanish. No elves have been sighted yet, but it clearly refutes your human only premise, even if you add exceptions for the aramor, shade and knator.
[/quote]


As you state it is a "robot" who says we cannot make robots. As this is a robot there for not living everything it does must be pre programmed.
Since this is also a robot it is NOT a race. So i am sorry but my argument still stands. Thinks can be recognised in game through the AL and yes the
AL Normally means it is so. But that is only if a player that was put in charge of the AL stick to the rules.

I don't think it was intended to have spaceships in MD do you? yet if it is in the AL we must have them?
I don't think so a bit of common sense tells us this cannot be so.

So i am sorry your delivery in this case i think is incorrect. You did not even supply a good proper argument for this to be honest
Please use facts and make them good ones. Some thing i cannot argue with at lest then i may change my mind

[Kafuuka]

Seriously yrthillian?
no arguments?
I have used the most classical argument in existence: a counterexample.
no facts?
I have used one of the sources which is repeatedly stated as the most important ones for facts about MD, even by the person who created the game.

Things in MD have to be 'intended'?
It is in a perpetual 'alpha' state. There is no such requirement as original intent.

A robot is not a 'race'?
A robot is not a human. Your premise was stated literally as 'humans only, except if the character was created by Mur' Perobotillo was a player who earned his recognition some time long ago. I don't know how and I don't need to. What matters is only that he invented a non human representation and made it so it was acknowledged. If someone wants to play an elf, you have to at least recognise that it is, in theory, possible.

[Tarquinus]

I am sympathetic to both points of view. For a long time, I tried hard to convince people that they should stick to the setting as it is presented by the game itself, not RP magical effects they don't have in-game (something I still dislike), and stay grounded in the "fantasy reality" of MD. But even that metric proved inadequate when Mur himself posted that MD is allegorical and that roleplay in MD has a unique meaning in the frame of RPGs. If we go by "canon only", there not only are no non-humans, but there are no non-player personalities in the game. There is instead a multitude of personalities strained through the prism of MD to create something new, an idea that is kind of cool if a little hard to explain or understand.

Conversely, that limitation is frustrating to me as someone who has been playing RPGs for over 30 years. I tried hard to emphasize that Tarq's "backstory" was all outside MD and that he is just an ordinary person, or was until he became the Moon Knight. Similarly, Keith Moon is pretty much an ordinary guy. But neither of these characters encompasses the whole of my personality - not many of you know Sebastian, the player. Tarq is not much like me but Keith is somewhat like me. Perhaps I can accept the premise that having two characters weakens both portrayals, but I have been roleplaying for a long time and am good at it. That will sound arrogant, but quite a number of players expressed frank amazement when they learned that Keith and Tarq were played by the same guy.* What I have done in constructing these characters is to create back-stories for both of them to use as foundations for playing the characters. I'm not willing to back away from that, really - you can view the character-roles as delusional (and Tarq, who is explicitly insane, invites that interpretation), but I am quite serious when I say that I am neither of these roles completely, and neither is exactly me. Does a long history of tabletop RPing hinder my progress as a MD player? Perhaps. But creating characters is what I do. You don't have to believe that Keith's mother was killed in a car wreck (my mother is very much alive) or that his brother died of a heroin overdose (which my brother did). You don't have to accept that Tarq believes himself to have been a liche once, and before that the last king of Rome. Your acceptance of those attributes of the player-character is [i]completely immaterial[/i] to me; no matter what you believe, these details inform my portrayal of the characters' personalities. There is among you at least one very, very good roleplayer whose alts are so convincingly played and thoroughly detailed that virtually no one has guessed they are all played by the same person. I cannot and will not view that fact as a bad thing: it is a credit to this community, and a thing of which we should all be fiercely proud.

I do in the main agree with you, Yrth, and I would add that I think most RP in MD ignores the setting and therefore takes the concept of role-playing entirely too far. That said, the realm has been smudged, as you have it; despite my lengthy protests to the contrary, there are apparently pubs in Wind's Sanctuary and the Defensive Quarters; and as someone above has pointed out, if enough people agree with a character as it is presented and believe in it, it is effectively as real in MD as anything else. The challenge to us veterans is to take the game community as it exists, mesh it with what we know of the setting and the nature of the "game" itself, and see what happens. While some people have made good strides in this direction - and I would number you, Yrth, among them - it is my opinion that [u]no one[/u], barring perhaps Mur himself, can claim anything like complete success.

[size="1"]*I want to emphasize that my only purpose in having done this was the challenge and sheer joy of presenting characters whose personalities differ in some way from my "natural" one. I have tried hard to avoid alt-abuse, and I have also tried to avoid concentrating political power in the hands of either character. Player-characters leaving or becoming less active - Penelope Lightmoon and [Dark] Mystic for the CoE and Yami No Sakura for the Legend Speakers - have put me in charge of alliances essentially by default. I don't care about power! Keith has wish points banked for the creation of rather mundane items. If you think I have ever wanted to "take over" any part of MD and/or brainwash its players in any way, you've got me all wrong. Keith and Tarq both speak forcefully and at times quite passionately, but there is often a meaningful difference between what the [i]characters[/i] want and what [i]I[/i] want. And if MD is more allegory than RPG, then these characters are just masks donned by a player for no other reason than to wear masks.[/size]

Edited April 7, 2011 by Tarquinus

[Muratus del Mur]

as a side note, everything in this world hides a silent fight for what is more real. From false vs right, to full and empty, everything spinns arround not only what "is" or "is not" but actually arround what is more real. Reality is defined by the observer, in md the more people agree to a reality the more real it becomes. You see the fight for reality when observing a virtual world but without exagerating, this fight happens in the outer world as much as it happens in-game.
(Now pls resume your interesting talk and dont get interrupted by me, i'm not participating in this, i was just making a general remark)

[Pipstickz]

What does it matter? Papers are nice to read, RP is fun to do, what does it matter if they are based in fiction?

[Yrthilian]

I didn't bother to use multi quote as it would make the post too long.

@ Kafuuka

As i mentioned i presume the race to be human. A single entity of a robot does not make it a race. The robot had to be built in some way by someone.
The fact a robot dog was recognised only in my view means that the player that created the robot built it. Objects get recognised all the time.
If i remember there is or was a player trying to create a clockwork drachorn. If the drachorn was then mentioned in the AL it become more real but
does not mean it is a race within the game. I did not say i wont accept it but to me as a player and my character i do not see the other mythical creatures
as real in the terms of MD just as i don't see it as real in RL.

Please do remember this is only one point of view and my opinion.

@ Tarquinus

I do like your way with words have to say makes me jealous how you have such a mastery with your writing.
you do of course make some really good points and i do enjoy reading them.

I agree you are a very good RP'er one of the few i can say stick to each of the characters you created.
i fully agree with this line [i]"I would add that I think most RP in MD ignores the setting and therefore takes the concept of role-playing entirely too far."[/i]
yes i also agree it is become the job of the vet in a way to help players along and to clear the way a bit.

My main reason for this topic was to see others views on the reality of MD and i wanted to see if i was way off the mark with my own view with current views.
I am not saying people cannot be a mythical creature IF enough people agree to the concept and keep the reality of it going then may be the can be mythical
races. But for now i still stand by the fact the the current race in MD is human taking into account that the shades and the knator are something that became more real
in MD when the humans arrived to the lands. Even as a et i only grasp some things and have yet to grasp MD as a whole.

[Sharazhad]

[quote]Story mode clearly states you are projected into MD from your RL self. [/quote]
[color="#2e8b57"][i]
Story mode also depicts that we are projected into MD as a human male. Does this mean that everyone in MD realm are human males?!? Seriously!!!

Two questions arise from reading the above posts:
1) If non-human characters and mythical characters are "non-reality" what about talking animals.... Such as a MetalBunny for example? Where is the line drawn?
2) Magicduel is a Fantasy RPG (according to what the tags say) so my question is then: Whose Fantasy is it? Mine? Murs? [/i][/color]

[quote]The creatures in Game are bound to you. They are part of you. When we start in the beginning it states that much those creatures become part of you and represent you in many ways that to this day most players still have yet to understand or even realise. Every one things of the creatures as pets. Sorry but they are not pets they are more of an aspect of your personality. [/quote]

[color="#2e8b57"][i]Again, I refuse to believe (unless you have undoubtable proof) that creatures that were born from the imagination of another human being can be an aspect of my personality. No- one in this game knows me well enough to make such a statement. [/i][/color]

[Udgard]

[quote name='Sharazhad' timestamp='1302172299' post='82077']
Story mode also depicts that we are projected into MD as a human male. Does this mean that everyone in MD realm are human males?!? Seriously!!!

Two questions arise from reading the above posts:
1) If non-human characters and mythical characters are "non-reality" what about talking animals.... Such as a MetalBunny for example? Where is the line drawn?
2) Magicduel is a Fantasy RPG (according to what the tags say) so my question is then: Whose Fantasy is it? Mine? Murs? [/i][/color]
[/quote]
Not sure if fantasy races are strictly forbidden, but I do feel it is rather frowned upon during the game's inception.
Whose fantasy? The characters are our fantasy, but the setting and limitation is based on the creator's fantasy, of course. It's just like if someone plays in a high-fantasy RPG, they can create any character they want, but as long as it follows the game's settings; no alien cyborgs in the middle of an elvish forest.
[quote name="Old Front Page"]If you like adventure ...
you will find a fantasy world full of quest and interesting places
...but you will find little fantasy characters, races, classes, names or this kind of made-up stuff[/quote]

[quote name='Sharazhad' timestamp='1302172299' post='82077']
Again, I refuse to believe (unless you have undoubtable proof) that creatures that were born from the imagination of another human being can be an aspect of my personality. No- one in this game knows me well enough to make such a statement. [/quote]
I believe it was explained during mp3's tutorial/story stage that creatures are bound to us and are part/representation of our character's personality. I couldn't fight it at the moment, but IIRC there were also a forum topic from a long time ago that states this as well somewhere.

[Ravenstrider]

[quote name='Sharazhad' timestamp='1302172299' post='82077']
[color="#2e8b57"][i]
Story mode also depicts that we are projected into MD as a human male. Does this mean that everyone in MD realm are human males?!? Seriously!!! [/i] [/color]
[/quote]
Again, look at it from a technical perspective: Drawing two sets of story mode images, then creating a gender prompt during the registration...

[quote name='Sharazhad' timestamp='1302172299' post='82077']
Again, I refuse to believe (unless you have undoubtable proof) that creatures that were born from the imagination of another human being can be an aspect of my personality. No- one in this game knows me well enough to make such a statement.

[/quote]

Oh, that's because every human being is so complex that you can't find a common denominator with another. Have you ever felt hunger? Have you ever been angry? Wow, I must know you pretty good, if I'm able to guess that you have.

Edited April 7, 2011 by Ravenstrider