Petition for closing the Angiens Shrine

[emerald arcanix]

this was the basis that we had for closing the shrine, it can be developed and shaped in many other forms

so in short the reasons behind closing it, or some of them not all

Edited June 14, 2011 by emerald arcanix

[Maebius]

Any chance of someone hosting it in a text format (even if the fancy indents and such are lost)? My computer is prompting me for a converter to view this properly, and while the "update/install" appears to go through properly, all the file appears to be is random ASCII instead of sjsut strangely formatted text.

Hard to ponder the reasons, when all I see is "õƒ%ß1 ÔÙœIs" and such.
Sorry.

[emerald arcanix]

txt format

[Maebius]

thank you very, Very much. Moreso than you may think.
It confirms some thoughts I had, about hte ease of that shrine being reached.

[duxie]

[size="2"][font="Verdana"]
*claps* IMO correct motivation and a good start.

I just would put the entrance to the Angien's Shrine inside Sage's Keep (boat or tunnel *shrugs*), so it is still in a reach, still draws attention.
That way it is more interesting, more tempting, more mysterious then the banned one. Also I would think to put a WP payment for that entrance, so only really dedicated to the secret people would want to take it. That might look the same as to put 3WP payment on the current boat, but from my small experience I would say that Sage's Keep has the least popularity comparing to other "secret" places in other lands (I might be wrong, but that's just an opinion). So that way you would have 2 secret places in MB more wannable to research, and people use to stick to the places of their purpose.

That's just an idea, tons of alternatives are possible. All i want to say - things are way more interesting when they are hard to get, then impossible ones
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[Kyphis the Bard]

I have to say that I agree with your reasoning, and agree that it would be better to have a situation like the Drachorn Cave, rather than like the Necrovion Graveyard.

[TTLexceeded]

Well I could reply by creating a whole new 2 pages document but I only have 2 things to say:

1)MB being characterised as a not attractive nor mysterious land and Angiens not being studied is because Angiens Shrine was open to all? Then I guess all people in MD are studying drachorns. But hey, they are not. You have one of the most active research alliance what do you actually want more? All of MD studying Angiens? Hardly anybody studies anything. And if you believe that closing the shrine will achieve that or make MB more "mysterious" then I am sorry but your logic isn't that great.

2)And now think of this: Necrovion moving and closing down Way of Cleansing and Bersekers Charge. Yeah Tormented souls have been really free for all lately so have UPs. I say close them down. What will happen to the fighting system? You are creating a huge gap between old and new people. And whats next? Closing down the aramory? And hey we got a solution. We will make old people who had a lot of angiens even richer by saying: You want an angien? Go buy it. Hell I am gonna try and close down Way of Cleansing after recruiting 150 UPs...

Your reasoning is flawed. You should have known better, acted better.
Yours
TTL

[Rumi]

I support the position taken by Seekers of Enlightenment and queen of Marind Bell.

Seekers of Enlightenment originally established the connection with the Angiens and their choice to withdraw that connection would logically result in the Angiens consciously or unconsciously reevaluating their relationship with the entire realm.

Should the Necrovions or any other group choose to reconsider the relationships they have forged with their lands, they have that prerogative. The Seekers of Enlightenment have chosen to act and they have the reason, the right, and the power to choose to alter the relationship they developed.

This is not about the rich and the poor, the new and the old, or the markets or dueling. Those things will correct themselves (with a little help from above as necessary) and find their balance, just as they always have.

It's about Angiens and the relationship we have come to develop with them across the realm. Perhaps we would do well to examine all of our relationships and see if there are ways we might be viewed as abusive.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Rumi

[xrieg]

[quote name='TTLexceeded' timestamp='1308091946' post='86250']
2)You are creating a huge gap between old and new people.
Your reasoning is flawed. You should have known better, acted better.
Yours
TTL
[/quote]

... and it is yet another step in this direction. Rather than introducing new features the old free-for-everyone become luxury and very active new players will have less and less chance competing against sombebody who was never particularly active - but opened account long time ago when crits were freely availaible and upgrades didn't require MP.

I agree with TTL - reasoning is flawed. As much as I may agree that angien is too powerful to be a freebie, it is now and curtrent players have unfair advantage over new ones (not major at the beginning but it will increase with time) - and it's a gift to all ppl with alts packed with angiens

You think angiens come too easy? Increase their requirements - more wins and age to upgrade - even by a factor of 2 for age, 3 for wins. They are currently high comparing with other crits - but could have been higher for legendary crits like angiens (and for active players wins requirement is not really high as it is).

[Pipstickz]

Rumi; for a large portion of the population, all this affects is creatures and rituals and trading. Some people just don't care about any abusive relationship to a creature that they recruited on their own, and that is MD to them.

TTL and xrieg; people can get along just fine without angiens, they just need to maybe use their heads a little. Only place I use an angien is my defense ritual, and that's only because it happens to be one of the creatures I have with claw2 on it.

[xrieg]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1308120253' post='86255']
TTL and xrieg; people can get along just fine without angiens, they just need to maybe use their heads a little. Only place I use an angien is my defense ritual, and that's only because it happens to be one of the creatures I have with claw2 on it.
[/quote]

Sure they can. But the question remains: why should they have that disadvantage and less options availaible against older players?

[dst]

Let me tell you how I see this: a pathetic try to get what GG has: a similar alliance to Layer Keepers. GG Drachs have had this status (hard to obtain creatures) since the beginning. BUT you have Drachs in MD Shop (2 types actually). There is no alternative to Angiens in shop (at least for now).

You're being selfish and unreasonable. You're taking away a thing based of the fact that "players do not respect the Angiens". That's a load of <insert bad word here>. So get back to your senses and stop this stupid and pointless sharade. Do something constructive if you wish but DON'T destroy what already exists. Shish...

Edited June 15, 2011 by dst

[backlash ro]

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1308124172' post='86259']
Let me tell you how I see this: a pathetic try to get what GG has: a similar alliance to Layer Keepers. GG Drachs have had this status (hard to obtain creatures) since the beginning. BUT you have Drachs in MD Shop (2 types actually). There is no alternative to Angiens in shop (at least for now).

You're being selfish and unreasonable. You're taking away a thing based of the fact that "players do not respect the Angiens". That's a load of <insert bad word here>. So get back to your senses and stop this stupid and pointless sharade. Do something constructive if you wish but DON'T destroy what already exists. Shish...
[/quote]


Yep,I support TTl,Xrieg etc.

It s not enough that all of the contests,quests(mainly the good stuff) go to the old players,new players don t really have a chance in winning anything valuble because there is that tight group af 5-6 players that get everything,just look at the statistics...and now that they ve got drachs,angiens and other creatures and don t need it anumore...you are closing it down for the rest of us?

This is a prety inconsidering move...

[duxie]

[size="2"][font="Verdana"]*shrugs* if to talk about combat - not like Angiens do really help newbies nowadays. If you know how to use them properly - you're not a newbie. I have a good example of me and lone wolf pup It was my mistake to lose interest in Angiens, but the situation in MD really helped here - I was too concentrated in getting and understanding more rare creatures, hence I worked way more to get into and understand other lands then explore MB.

Anyways, I had 0 friends in here when I started playing, I was/am a total newbie, not like few of you against this idea You knew where you're heading to from the very beginning, I had/have to find this yet, and the mystery factor does work here at least for the kind as me.

I love backlash ro post, hehe... "It s not enough that all of the contests,quests(mainly the good stuff) go to the old players" - only in combat situations where most of the old players are mp5-6, which has nothing to do with newbies. Everything other (contests, quests) in fact help newbies to get closer to elders, makes them more equal, stats/creatures/mp doesn't help here, which is... what you want, no?

Not like Angiens will become a rare creature after this. There are what? Thousands of them in our pockets? They might become hard to get for newbies, this is true, but also newbies will be way more anxious to get such a reward. You wont be able to get rich on newbies - they don't have the buying power, and every elder has them, so no money for Angiens this way too. But there's a lot of players who don't really care about another piece of silver and they will support contests/quests with excess of Angiens, which is great - more pleasant reward = bigger interest in quest, and quests are what elders use to move newbies around... or keep them attached

Be fair, Angiens will still be way easier to get for newbies then drachs... not talking about GG one, to buy a drach from the shop you need to become mp4 + spend > 250 days in MD which doesn't make you a newbie anymore for sure. And no newbie will pay a $ for the game he hasn't played enough to like it, which again doesn't make him a newbie.

bleh, sorry, made it too long...
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[TTLexceeded]

I am sorry but if you dont understand that making the shrine a closed place because MB is not mysterious and people dont have respect for angiens isnt an idiotic reason then apparently you really dont have any grasp of reality concerning MD's community. Congratulation you managed to make Duxie more interested in Angiens. There were 30 people in the meeting. 20 of them are researchers. These are the only people that care. That wont change if you close the shrine. You will just manage to make them more rare and put a price on them. People dont respect drachorns they just want to have them. Same thing will happen for angiens.

Congratulations in taking a decision that will cause MB to have a rare creature. Apparently your action admit that MB isnt mysterious, it's an action to create an impression. To give MB its own drachs. So cut the b******t and say it str8. [b]"We want to feel more special."[/b]

[backlash ro]

Exactly!

(and to Duxie: Look at the contests in geenral,facebook,now twitter and others....who win s generally?,who get s the big prizes etc?)

[emerald arcanix]

this petition was an experiment...it far from perfect but the points given there i consider are consistent...and it was put here to be discussed, every point made in the paper is a possibility that can be explored like the guild, [b]there wont be one [/b], and that path was explored only because its was mur's idea some time ago to make keepers for every land, seems this wont happen and its ok, plus an alternative was also suggested there, not perfect yes but there was one

i respect every opinion, even caustic ones, as long as those that make them also give reasons for why this is b.....s and so on

and please remember this:

Ann. 1861 - [2011-05-31 04:47:45 - Stage 10]
Angien Shrine is partially closed. Further changes regarding Angiens and methods to protect these beautiful creatures are pending to be discussed with MB Queen in later days.

the situation is not fixed yet, this is way MB made this available for discussion

ans regarding constructive things to do, we do, last night chat was a start

and its my personal belief that at lest for some months to come this wont affect the balance of power regarding combat at all

and to TTL, i dont do this to create an impression and you are free to change all you want in the land you belong to as a citizen or try to, every citizen can do

and i didnt manage to make them more rare, i could not do that, the decision was made after a convo between the queen and mur, so thought was given to this matter before making a move

[Fyrd Argentus]

So, to interject a different perspective....

I feel the loss of the clickie out on the island. Let's at least get the scene back and put the blocks at the recruitment or power-up steps.

What did "partially" mean, anyway?

[Maebius]

[quote name='backlash ro' timestamp='1308145606' post='86272']
Exactly!
(and to Duxie: Look at the contests in geenral,facebook,now twitter and others....who win s generally?,who get s the big prizes etc?)
[/quote]

I consider myself a rather new person, only 150 active days or so now, and the first 50 of them totally clueless and wandering Necrovion aimlessly....
Yet at the 6yr Anniversary festival, I won an award for feedback about the contests. I didnt' "win the contest", I simply participated as well as I was able, which unfortunately only involved a small bit of time, comparitively speaking. I'm no fossil/Vet by any stretch. I participated, that is all.

Mur does not hand out prizes to just the vets. He tries to be fair, from what I have seen. Those vets may simply be more active and understand the methods to use. That does not mean they win simply by being older players. After 150 days active, even if I would get every rare creature on my first day, I still would not be "maxed out" by any stretch. Patience and +age, helps both crits and we players too, and Immediate Rewards are always over-valued in the short-term.

As for the angiens shrine closing, I am irritated they are being compared to Drachs/Tormented Souls, and such. These creatures still exist, and ARE still accessible to newbies, with the right amount of time and perseverence. Not as easy as binding an Elemental Egg, sure, but That doesnt' mean they are now "gone/useless/worthless/valuable" simply by being less common?
Surely TTL would respect "The nature of the Land" as a reason for changing something. Have you not said many times that I shouldn't imply I would want to "play" in Necrovion (on Gort) because it is disrespectful of the Land and it's nature? Even though I mean it ironically? Would not Marind's Bell be held to the same status, in a sense, where through the actions of it's citizens and others, the Shrine was once Opened. Now, in following with the request of it's Queen and citizens, using supporting evidence from the Adventure Log, Principles, and general "belief" in the mechanics of MD as we understand them, such a decision is frowned upon as selfish?

I see this lockout not so much about "aww, now I won't have the crits I want", as I perceive some of the arguments implying. Rather, it is about the concept of Angiens and Marind's Bell, and the people within it. I see it as a perfect example of "How MD works" overall.

I also see that this discussion is good to have, because dissenting remarks (on either side of the issue) can help us formalize our own thoughts on the matter. Thank you.

-Maebius

[TTLexceeded]

2 things again.
1) Its never good to use yourself as an example. We all get it you are awesome now lets talk about reality.I am bored of hearing the same people talking about how young they are and what they have achieved. You are on your way to get to the AL or whatever, we get it, and honestly we dont care.

2) Dont mix topics if you are not really, really, really sure they actually aid to the conversation. For example your comparison is pretty much like saying:You said potatoes arent good for your garden and thats the same as saying: I dont like people sitting in my chairs so I take them away when I invite friends over for dinner. (Pip I got nothing against potatoes)
[quote]Surely TTL would respect "The nature of the Land" as a reason for changing something. Have you not said many times that I shouldn't imply I would want to "play" in Necrovion (on Gort) because it is disrespectful of the Land and it's nature? Even though I mean it ironically? Would not Marind's Bell be held to the same status, in a sense, where through the actions of it's citizens and others, the Shrine was once Opened. [/quote]
The nature of MB is affected by the shrine being open or closed??? Wow.

[quote]following with the request of it's Queen and citizens, using supporting evidence from the Adventure Log, Principles, and general "belief" in the mechanics of MD as we understand them, such a decision is frowned upon as selfish?[/quote]

So the people who decide something and the reason they give automatically grands them respect and we all shall close our mouths and obey? I dont judge facts based on who did something. I judge facts based on actions taken.
People with a good reasoning and good intentions have commited crimes.
People with bad reasoning and bad intentions have saved others.

I can only be sure of the actions. So I judge from them.

Edited June 15, 2011 by TTLexceeded

[xrieg]

There are two separate issues:
1. is agien's importance, character, and strength consistent with making it a easily recruitable crit for anybody? Emerald raised well documented argument against it
2. recognizing the fact that they were easily recruitable is it reasonable to close the shrine from all new players

I think it's sad that MD seems to be boiling in its own vapours and majors research results do not result in new insights and features but recognize that some door that were opened for everybody should be shut... And if you joined the game later - well, sorry you missed the bus.

[duxie]

[quote name='xrieg' timestamp='1308162209' post='86288']
I think it's sad that MD seems to be boiling in its own vapours and majors research results do not result in new insights and features but recognize that some door that were opened for everybody should be shut... And if you joined the game later - well, sorry you missed the bus.
[/quote]
[size="2"][font="Verdana"]
xrieg, one experienced player once told me that something like 2-3 months before I joined the game, they've been sacing Angien eggs for max VE (4K he said, if my memory doesn't lie to me). I can't confirm that fact, it might be just a rumor - elders can tell us. But how would you feel to miss that train? Lets not forget GG drachs were easy to get at some moment, we missed that one too. New mp5's could complain they can't max their crits so easy as it was 2 months before - they sure missed that train. Everything's changing, but MD prevails. That's the fact and it talks for itself.
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[Lifeline]

finally! the only mainland that is completely open and gets exploited and pillaged like no other finally gets its most sacred shrine closed to at least preserve a little sense of Marind Bell not being a complete prostitude. (sorry for the word choice but sweettalking stuff wont help).
so Marind Bell doesnt even deserve a single location where not everybody can go? Angiens Shrine used to be closed for years since, it just recently got opened. be happy that it even got opened unlike multiple locations in ANY other land.

[apophys]

My recommendation is to make the AP cost of going to the shrine 150 AP, and having it be open to the public. Or if you don't like 150, then maybe 200.

EDIT: And no, I don't mean to rely on pickles. There are other ways to get large AP.

Edited June 15, 2011 by apophys

[awiiya]

I think that Kets and other members of SoE can still release Angiens, no? Or are they also unable to go to the Shrine?

Awi