death ray

If it's such a big problem maybe you all should have a talk with me and hear my side

If it's such a big problem maybe you all should have a talk with me and hear my side

with all honesty, i didn't see it to be so offencive and negitive. to me it's just a word,like F**k S**t ect. just words nothing more,i should have thought about one fact tho and thats that MD is a community from all over the world and that we all do see such things diffrently.this can and will work out in the end it all ways does, it's MD! i'm asking every one as a whole to find it in them to forgive my poor actions...



(if haven't read my papers i'm not realy meant to be a nice,loving,and caring ect. type of charactor)
THE END...

If it's such a big problem maybe you all should have a talk with me and hear my side

Some people just shouldn't be able to write in PL's... He posted a LOT (not sure about exact number) of white lines in mine... Making it a pain to view comments from people who're younger.

Rather then finding someone new to do that task, why not expand the forum moderators to include PLs.

I trust the moderators to know whats right and wrong for the forum, and I would extend that trust that they would know whats offensive and whats not in PLs.

Btw, I asked some of my friends who are practising alternative lifestyle about the post by DR and they are indifferent. They are curious though why is so many people finding it offensive, when they themselves find that it is not. They find that it is more offensive that the public at large have to keep jumping to their defence and trying to be politically correct as it is painting them to be a community who is narrow minded and sensitive. Their advice, if you are not practicing an alternative lifestyle, stop trying to defend their sensitivities.

*wink*

Well, Fenrir, you are an idiot. And I know that you won't take offense because you aren't sensitive about being one! It's not the 1960's you know!

Jester does have a good point...you can delete forum profile comments, why not PL entries? If people want to say something bad about you and you won't let them do it in your PL, they can post it in their papers, or talk about it in chat...

Who cares if its offensive? The simple answer is for Mur to stop messing with principles for 5 minutes and use his amazing programming powers to add a feature where you can delete your own PL entries, or at the least have a character who can delete them, and you just have to ask them too.

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='23 November 2009 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1259004873' post='48255']

Zleiph I never said that saying it was right. I was merely pointing out that it is up to the person being called a name to be offended. If they are black and called a N!!!!!', it only affects them if they are sensitive about being black. If I am called a cracker, I laugh it off. It's a word. They make themselves look stupid when The person doesn't react negatively. Names are just that, names.

We are not in the 1960s anymore. These words do not have the same effect anymore.Their meanings have changed dramatically, if you don't agree with me on anything. You have to agree with me about this.
[/quote]

*takes a deep breath* Fenrir, I agree that words do change with time, but that is not the same thing as saying that their history is irrelevant. The ability of a word to harm isn't something that disappears overnight, or even over decades. What you appear to be saying here is that if someone is offended by a word or phrase, it is essentially their own fault for being too sensitive, since in your mind the words themselves are now harmless.

I am willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, and assume that their intentions in choosing those words are benign unless they give me a reason to think otherwise. But it is not up to you to dictate how people should react to hearing them, and what they should and shouldn't find hurtful. Words can be hurtful for any number of reasons, even unintentionally. They can create mental links to unpleasant memories, they can demonstrate subconscious biases, they can hide in joke form sentiments that truly are harmful. Just because you aren't trying to offend doesn't mean your words can't be offensive. The effects of words are defined by the one listening, not the one speaking.

The language people use in private conversations doesn't particularly concern me. But MD chat and player logs are public spaces, viewable by anyone. The types of words we are discussing are upsetting to many people, myself included, and the fact that someone knows someone who isn't bothered by them doesn't make that any less true. Surely we can agree to err on the side of civility and avoid speaking in ways that are likely to hurt people? There are enough other words in the English language, even insulting ones when needed, that I really don't think that is an unreasonable request.

Your statement above essentially said one of two things: either you are telling people how they should feel, or you are telling them that their feelings are irrelevant. I hope that isn't what you intended to say, but that is how it sounded to me.

[quote name='CrazyMike' date='23 November 2009 - 12:29 AM' timestamp='1258964967' post='48167']
LOL.....

Can we safely say the issue is dead or should we discuss options available?
[/quote]

I realize this post was originally about that one comment, but I dealt with a very similar issue not long ago and I continue to occasionally stumble across offensive comments when reading other people's PLs. Right now the only recourse is to speak out publicly, track down the offender in game, and convince them to make the change. If you can't find that person, or they aren't willing to cooperate, you are out of luck. I think it would be a good idea to have some admin type person who is able to edit PLs who can be contacted in these situations, if the above method doesn't work or if someone is uncomfortable having that sort of confrontation.

You know what? Some of your reactions to this situation are really making me consider if I've just entered the twilight zone. Mike, your friends really have no concept of their own rights and freedoms if that was their reaction, nor the value of the use of their own language. I wonder if you are aware of how freedom and equality is gained by minorities? I'll tell you a secret...it isn't because people "left them to it". I gotta tell you, I've asked my gay mates too and frankly you should have heard what they said because I can't repeat it on this forum without getting banned. If my friends were on here they would have an absolute field day wipping the floor with you people - and when I say wipping the floor with you I mean you would have so many facts, figures, websites and historical referrences coming out of your ears that you'd be willing to burn them off just to get rid of it all.

Sort out the PL issue like DST says and stop trying to justify or belittle the original action. I'll set up a new thread where we can vote on the suggested options, which will hopefully resolve this farce of a conversation. And before anyone else makes any smart remarks about my temperament, yes, i'm at the end of my fuse on this one, so tread carefully or tread on a landmine.

Z

Removing the comments yourself gives too much freedom. eg when the dojo existed people got marked with 'dojo violator' in their log and I don't think they should have had the ability to remove that comment themselves.

Submitting it on the forum will bring more sad topics and doesn't really solve it.

We trust the mods with the forum, so why not with the PL? Of all people, they should know the difference between a negative comment and an offensive comment. It might be a tiny bit more efficient if there was a central 'please remove comment X by player Y from my PL' form; they have no way to see all the new entries like the forum RSS.

Umm, the words have meaning to those who give them those meanings. Why care if the word ni!!!! was used for slaves. They arnt slaves any more, nor are there any slaves anymore. Forget what the word meant and focus on what the word now means.

Here, here.....

I agree with Jester.

Lets give players the ability to delete posts in their PL that they do not like.

Btw, my apologies to those that were offended by my posts earlier. Wasnt saying that the posts are right, but am saying that what one finds offensive might be normal for others. And I would be offended if MD starts a moral police to start telling everyone what is offensive and what is not.

Give the option to delete by the players and that should solve the problem.

*wink*

well would it be appropriate i held a public meeting and apologized for my actions?

i'll remove it,and i'm sorry you toke offense to my comment but my understanding of that word is diffrent,and i'll take all my PL comments out of every one's pl and reframe from puting any thing in them.

LOL.....

Emotions running high.

But Z made a good point.

The point is, if there is a remark made in the PL that we are not happy with (whether it concerns one's sexuality, genitals, mom or family members, pets or favorite positions with a sheep) what are our options besides arguing about it with the player who posted it.

DR says that he will delete that post from poe's PL.

Can we safely say the issue is dead or should we discuss options available?

i think Z is right

We may never know what to put in a player log..but we can make a sensible judgement. It doesnt matter if the person is a friend and they allow you to call them Stupid things. EVERYONE reads the player logs. You have to remember that when you decide to make negative remark. For the minors or whatever. You are responsible.

(oh and fenrir, WTF are you chatting on about?? no dont answer that..i dont wanna hear it)

With all due respect, and I appologise for the courseness of this example, black people consider the N word bad not because they believe black people are bad, latinos consider the S word bad not because they believe latinos are bad, this is exactly the same sort of derogatory word for gay people. Its a word that used to be used to slag gay people off, and therefore is not considered decent or respectful language in polite society, let alone with someone who you hardly know. Quite aside from the fact that saying "You give homosexuals a bad name" automatically implies you have a prejudice, there is absolutely no need to mention somebody's sexual preference whatsoever in commenting about their personality just as there is no need to mention someone's skin colour. I couldn't care less if you like to slag your mates off calling them stupid names and they arn't offended, that isn't the situation here.

It's a joke that this is even being discussed as potentially not being offensive. This isn't prime minister's question time, it isn't and now in the actor's studio, this isn't a topic about what is offensive and what isn't. Someone has had a homophobic remark placed on their PL and they are, quite rightly, not happy about it. If you don't have something constructive to say in order to resolve the situation then you are just exhaserbating an already unpleasant situation for the relevant person involved.

Z

Lol, I have the same thing in my logs.
wasn't to happy about it when I saw it. Wasn't happy to see that CrazyMike posted the same thong
Just a point to make, being called a fag is insulting to those who believe that homosexuals are bad, so they do not want to be one. If you were not insulted by being called a fag you don't mind the homosexual.

The way I view insults, is if it wasn't intended as an insult, then you shouldn't be offended...you obviously don't mean to insult your friends, so why should they see it as an insult?

Ahhh...... the beauty of world wide web

Even in the States, different states, areas, communities have different sensitivities. With an international community like MD, there is bound to be interaction problems.

Lets look at the sentence posted.

"You give fags a bad name."

This implies that Phantorm Orchid is practising an alternative lifestyle and is doing a bad job of it.

So, is the offensive part the use of the word "fag" or the fact that Phantom Orchid is doing a bad job of it?

If the word fag is replaced by another term that is more politically suitable like "same gender friendly" or "straight challenged" would it appease everyone?

Would anyone be offended if I were to say "You give guys a bad name" or "You give girls a bad name"?

Maybe some would be, and to be honest if someone were to post in my PL "You are a c**k sucking a**hole who cries like a little gal", I would be more amused than offended.

I am not saying what Death Ray is doing is right, as he seems to consistanly be doing something wrong.

But I am more interested to know how does one judge what is offensive to everyone?

A code of conduct?

Whose standard shall we use?

Only positive logs in PL?

And if negative? Whats the bar? How far can I insult a player in his PL before it gets taken off?

This is a sensitive road that one is threading, be careful what you wish for.

BTW, is this offensive? "Puki!"

*wink*

Disclaimer: I have lots of friends who practices alternative lifestyle that I sometimes call a faggot. Never once were they offended. Of course this could be due that I am a friend and they dont mind. They do not view that word by itself offensive, but rather the context that it was used in.

Noxid, Death Rays alt, posted this comment in my PL:


noxid
you give fags a bad name


It is offensive, discriminatory and rude, and I would like it taken off.

[quote name='Shadowseeker' date='22 November 2009 - 09:16 AM' timestamp='1258910219' post='48087']
Why did he write that in the first place? I mean, the PL is supposed to be about the personal opinion, be it good or bad.
[/quote]


he crossed a line... if this kind of behavior is tolerated, i will find a new game to play.