How can actual spells have "limited cast", its outrageous

[Muratus del Mur]

Its time for a concept clarification. I tried to make md in a very original but also personal view on subjects such as game playe but also the concept of "magic".
There are some traps i fell in. Because it requires a bit more "insanity" than i was prepared to have back 6 years ago to say things as they are, certain things I made them as they were "expected".

You might think md is original as it is, but from my point of view, things like "limited number of casts" on a spell, the word "spell" itself...scratch my ears and made me think they are very ..commercial.

I tried over time to improve things by making them more natural to how I wanted them to be, and some of the steps i did in that direction are relevant. This is one of those steps. It does not involve a tehnical change, because none is required, but it is about a clarification of concept. This clarification is so important for me that I made an announcement about it and shift other things in md tehnical or cenceptual, to fit it. I wanted to make it the milestone that will mark the end of stage X and beginning of stage XI...but i am sure you don't see it as important as I do yet so I will let the stage11 celebrate an other, more dramatic and obvious change/feature.


Now, what is this all about.

Spells are nothing more than "pre-compiled" memories, complex thoughts..too complex to remember as they are. Sometimes you can cast them without words, achieving the same result through your actions, sometimes you can use words to "cast" spells by bringing their memory fresh into your mind. The words offer a guide, a focus to set your mind in a defined direction.

In games, spells became more like ..idk.. pills that you take or buttons that you press and things happen, totaly away from their actual meaning and concept. I am trying to bring this concept more to its reality with certain things like "heat" cost, keeping spells as part of the chat talk and not "buttons to press" and such things. Sadly is not enough, for my standards at least.

Thats why i write this here and will follow this concept for the future in a more obvious way. SPELLS ARE THOUGHTS, not buttons, not words you read an do things you cant do. The words are aids to do the things you can already do.

Currently in MD it is a huge gap between the spelldocs, that are the closest thing to spell descriptions you will probably ever find, and the "usable" spells. I am working on that part, and i am aware of this issue. At some point inner magic will unite with outer magic concepts in md, and all the development so far supports that sort of update. As i see it, it will probably happen in stage11..and if i get angry enough it will happen in one night of work because things are increasingly clearer for me as how they should go (development wise). Rendril almost finished a major feature that will also be used to reintegrate the spelldocs, so everything is comming in place nicely.

I find it outrageous how spells can have "limited number of casts". How can that be? You run out of words? wtf is this bulshit, excuse my language.
Regardless how angry I am on the general preconceptions that make people think a certain way, or by the need to balance powers that made me add limited number of "casts" to a unlimited thing, i need to move on and go back to what I consider accurate and real. For that I will shift MD further more on the originality path.

There is one case when spells have indeed limited "casts"..it is when they are not yours and you just remember that thought, copied from someone else. In reality, thoughts do not "re-purify" themselves..sadly. But in RL we experience an entropic universe. In md the world is balanced, or slightly inclined towards syntropy, so what I will say next _makes perfect sense_.

" A spell has limited uses because a memory used in such way gets slightly tainted by current thoughts and it needs time to recover its purity. Therefore, spell casts are limited, but if you master the spell (as opposed to temporary spells), their "casts" will recharge periodically."
(This is a quote from the description added to the spell index page)


Note: Normally in an entropic universe, any thought you repeat (i hate the word spell), becomes altered and gets further away from its original purity..but becomes also stronger.

Following this sudden change of heart that makes me improve concepts and alter feature just to follow those concepts, I will do different changes to the spell system. Nothing will be drastic, no functionality will be broken. What is now implemented is fine..just some of the words are too standard and i hate it.

For example, part of this concept will be a new sort of temporary spells..thoughts that you consume till they are gone then you forget how to recall them. Words alone can only help someone recreate thoghts in their mind with their own "vocabulary" of feelings...but spells sometimes are about feelings that you never experienced and such thoughts can not be reproduced without experience..but can be copied in the presence of someone that masters them.


Temporary spells will also change the way MD is played..mainly because now a lot more people will be able to have spells. The spells wont be abusable because they wont be rechargeable! There is a huge range of possibilities that opened up today but it is all based on the previous years of development.
[b]
In the end I want to remind you all one thing.


There is no magic..things might look as magic seen from one side but its knowledge seen from the other side. There is no magic for the magician.
[/b]

[Hedge Munos]

Don't like the word spell? How about:

Charm
Hex
Incantation
Jinx
Enchantment
Witchery

Edited July 6, 2011 by Hedge Munos

[darrydabby]

The Magic Spell of MD is Big important to me, I wanna suggest can hold all the spell magic cast the ruler of the land( King / Queen) or (Mentor/Protector).


No one can waste the spell of magic

[Udgard]

On the concept of "limited cast", I think you've mentioned somewhere that when we cast a spell, we leave a part of ourselves there, used up a portion of ourselves. Running with that theory, I think it is logical that spells have a limited number of cast. For "temporary spells", you leave parts of yourself containing the memory of that spell as you cast them, and when you've consumed all parts of yourself that is connected to that spell.. *poof*. You no longer can use them. Even with permanent spells we have limited casts because we cannot use up so many parts of ourselves at once (without serious consequences), but with rest, some part of us might regenerate, allowing us to once again cast the spell, perform the ability that is already engraved in yourself.

[Burns]

If the thought of 'using up memory' annoys you, you could create artifacts together with giving the temporary spellcasting power. A simple item, no transfer, that comes into being automatically when the power is granted, and leaves the world again when the power is used up.

Metaphysically, it could serve as catalyst for thoughts to achieve the spell, but not stable enough to last for long. Like, say, a seal ring in a machine working with high pressures. Goes well for a while, then it stops working and you need to replace it. The greater the artifact, the longer it could last.

Technically, it also serves the purpose of showing what somebody already has in stock, because undoubtedly you'll not handle all those not rechargeable spells yourself, and if the people with that power don't keep each other updated about every single spell they grant, which they probably won't due to the high distribution, people might stack a pretty high number of casts, defeating the purpose of them being limited to some extent.

[Maebius]

I like this. I like this a LOT.
As for using up memory, and the disjointed view of how that works, I think it's perfect. Consider watching a movie for the first time. You are excited, or have otherwise strong emotions. The movie is awesome. Your memory of "the first time" is great.
Watch the movie again.
You may be able to quote more lines. The memory of it is stronger. Yet the emotion is different.
You've seen this before.
While it may be the best movie ever, you'll eventually go watch something else. The "memory" is not the same.

Change happens.

I like this.
and I like that 'alot' too.

[Yrthilian]

Correct me if i am wrong here but the "spell" is based on a few factors in MD

Memories/feeling
Principals
heat

To me I dont like to use the word spell or magic for this. I would conceder it as principal manipulation
or something like that.

To me i see this as an ability to control principals for a short time. As over time unless used a lot in
an area the memory/feel of the effect fades. Even in ones mind. The ability to see and to touch be it physical
or mentally is the better concept.

I am not good with word so i may not be explaining myself well here.

The memory of the (i hate to use it but i cant think of a word for it) spell would only be a temporary think.
Like in RL for me i am currently studding programming. As i sit and play with code more the more i remember and
the better i understand it. The clearer it becomes to me. I see this as the same for principal manipulation.

If you study it and keep studding it the more you will remember and understand and the better you will retain
the details and use to principal manipulation.
(even now as i think of it principal manipulation is not the right wording for this)

[Fyrd Argentus]

Heat is the stuff being manipulated here.

Principles are the tools used to do that.

The specific collection and sequencing of words/thoughts/memory-images used to do that can use word-metaphors from many walks of life besides "spells". We could call them recipes, verses, stanzas, procedures, lyrics, vows, rites, vignettes, stories, tales, invocations, constructs, weavings, programs, scripts, subroutines, etc. Prayers and rituals bring in other meaning from MD or they would be on the list too.

It seems to me that each magic culture/tradition would use a different set of words to describe what it is they are doing to manipulate and use heat. I refer you to Roger Zelazny's Madwand series - in which the protagonist has to learn how to do something similar without the benefit of a teacher. Is he manipulating threads, beams, flows, balls, tones, or what? The answer is -- all of the above, depending on circumstance. Different mindsets (principles) make different tasks easier or harder. His Dilvish the Damned series has sorcerers viewing spells (constructs that can be imbued with energy) on different "planes" wherein the construct appears different from different vantage points (principles?). And demons that live in these different energy planes can be summoned and put to work...

I particularly like the cooking analogy in that an experienced chef will only follow the original recipe exactly a certain number of times before they get bored with it and try something just a little different - with good or bad results. The better the cook, the more often they are successful before something goes wrong and they return to the original recipe.

[Added: A one-time cast could be using up a favor or credit owed to you by some entity outside yourself. Charlie the demon owes you one - but just one.]

Edited July 6, 2011 by Fyrd Argentus

[MRWander]

[quote name='Udgard' timestamp='1309922599' post='87202']
On the concept of "limited cast", I think you've mentioned somewhere that when we cast a spell, we leave a part of ourselves there, used up a portion of ourselves. Running with that theory, I think it is logical that spells have a limited number of cast. For "temporary spells", you leave parts of yourself containing the memory of that spell as you cast them, and when you've consumed all parts of yourself that is connected to that spell.. *poof*. You no longer can use them. Even with permanent spells we have limited casts because we cannot use up so many parts of ourselves at once (without serious consequences), but with rest, some part of us might regenerate, allowing us to once again cast the spell, perform the ability that is already engraved in yourself.
[/quote]
This seems the most realistic to me and perhaps (depending on personalities and dna though this may require more of the dna questions we received when logging in a while back) there would be ways for some to recharge this part of them they left behind, i.e. meditating in a certain place which influences them some people need secluded far away places near the beach others work better in the mountains etc... its another way to reinforce the new visc and keep exploration up for some atleast.

[Muratus del Mur]

Normal information can be copied indefinetly without being lost (xerox style). Complex thoughts, such as those for "spells" you can't multiplicate simply because you don't have either the "reading" device nor the "ink" to write a copy. Imagine to make a xerox copy of a 100$ bill...some things look similar, some things will never be similar. What happens in this case is that each copy of that sort of thought is still connected to the one that created it initially. That, in terms of MD dynamics, would mean that players mastering a permanent spell should be able to give away limited casts of it and each cast should drain them of heat as long as it exists. This will scatter the spell across multiple players but not duplicate its original power/source. This is not to far from how things are now ..but not with spells in md..with items. Items that create items, such as pickles and candy, have a limited amount that can be created, based on how many are already "uneaten". This concept was applied to candy and pickles so i could create the system for potential later use, like for now.

I don't know how much i will be able to bring the spells concept closer to reality, i will try hard , now and for years to come, thats for sure. Sadly some things are very very hard to achieve. For example the connection between inner and outer magic, how to create spells. In the outer world this would be "managed" and limited by ones abilities to understand the surroundings, in md there are tehnical limitations and the surroundings are quite different from the outer-world. I found a solution for that, it will be acceptable in terms of "game play" and will be close enough to reality BUT..but ...my quest will remain that one day I will find a way to perfect it. One day I want players in MD to be able to "learn" a spell and do it, and not "unlock" a spell and click it. It is possible, and all the things i change now point in that direction. However you notice how md population drops as MD goes further away from "gameplay standards". I could have created a branched magic system with points to distribute and such..but nooo, i had to do it my way..this drives people away. I..dont..care..

The priority in md development as long as i will be the one deciding it, will be to respect its concepts and to fine tune a central idea, same one for years.

I have connectivity issues with the server so i cant upload anything at the moment. There are several changes that are done but will be uploaded probably tomorow, unless a miracle happens and i manage to do it tonight..oh wait, no miracles, oh well..later then.

[Jubaris]

Population will come, I wouldn't worry about that
Finish up your features, and once you think MD is "complete enough" to be advertised or something, then start a campaign, and just place a decent enough tutorial at the starts for new people to realize traces of what this World actually is.

Where's will there's a way x)

[Fyrd Argentus]

The bloodthirsty and/or befuddled noobs leave when they realize there are no explosions or splashes of blood. Those ones never get to the point of experiencing the magic system.

I agree with Rhaegar, it's mostly a supply-side and integration issue.

[Phantom Orchid]

This realm and magic contained therein are like an onion, layered and complex. The outer skin is smooth, lifeless, giving off only a mild odor of what is locked inside. Dead remnants of the previous year's stalk are falling off onto the ground and will eventually feed the soil. Underneath the outer skin of the onion, layer upon layer awaits to be peeled back, if one is able and willing. Deeper and deeper, and the harder and harder it becomes (and the more likely it is that one is going to cry ) to continue, until, one finally reaches the 'center' or core.

Many would think they found the answer (as if there were [i]one[/i]) here, the source, the beginning.

However, a small sprout inhabits the middle, pushing up, pushing through and out, capable of growing into a scape, of producing flowers, of producing seeds - and, with the help of the elements, new life.

And with this understand one is now equipped to help others see beyond the object into an ever-expanding and contracting universe that lies within, throughout, and beyond.


Thank you, Mur, for making this happen.



[sup]((why an onion? that's the first thing i saw when i looked up in my kitched. if i only had a tomato...))[/sup]

[Burns]

Memory Stones are all cool, but i can't find the logic in having them on the market as such.
As empty shells, they are practically worthless to anybody but 'the magician', who is solely able to store a valuable thought in them. Still, even the empty stones will be worth a lot because you gave 2 people the opportunity to create them, and the rest of us are dependent on their quasi-monopole.
To the magician, the memory stones are worthless, he can only charge them with something he already has. The only reason a magician would want to do that is to give the enchanted stone to somebody else, either in trade for a fee, or, and here i see the actual purpose of limited spells, as quest rewards for newbies.
For that purpose they can't be used now, though, because we just can't afford to pay for empty stones, charge them and then give them away for free in the long run.

And what's even worse, the reward for this doesn't reach the people who invested time and effort into getting spells, setting quests, and creating enchanted stones to give the newbies a little flair of magic, the end of the food chain are 2 people who happen to have the tools to gather stones. I don't see that as right approach. I'd rather have magicians be able to find and collect these stones on their own, with their superior senses for magical things they got from working with spells for a long time if you will.

That way we could have actual competition for strong spells, and we'd have a lot more enchanted stones given out to newbies for doing certain kinds of quests. I DO see the purpose of having the stones limited by 2 gatherers, but that limit doesn't help anybody but the appointed gatherers, and specially not the newbies. I never complained about woodcutters, because lumber is definitely not something aimed for newbies, and the people who want wood for creating an item are not that plentiful. But this thing is definitely meant to help newbies see some magic in MAGICduel, and that purpose is currently only badly served, if at all. Seriously, you can't ask us, the long lasting members who did some work to acquire spells, to PAY in order to spread some magic to the newbies.

Also, i'd like to be able to charge stones with a number of casts decided by me, not just 'all casts of that spell at once' as the announcement said.

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1310194487' post='87407']
Also, i'd like to be able to charge stones with a number of casts decided by me, not just 'all casts of that spell at once' as the announcement said.
[/quote]
If I read and remember correctly, you use all of your casts to put 2 or 3 casts into the stone. Otherwise, I totally agree <<

[Phantom Orchid]

Burns,

That is *exactly* what I was thinking too!

They are potentially a wonderful opportunity and teaching tool to allow aspiring magician's to learn spells.

But we'll see. Unfortunately when most people see items (this goes for in and out of MD) solely as 'resources' to be exploited for profit, then they are no longer valued for who/what they are.

[Muratus del Mur]

you are not seeing all the possibilities (and you are wasting my time to point you the obvious out).
Here is a sample scenario:

Gatherer gets a 10 stone batch. He can't sell one stone he can sell only 10 because they behave like resources, and over time that amount increases.
So he can continue to increase stoc and ask for more, or sell and eventually he will sell. Using alts to store the stones will eventually reach a limit too. You are forgetting the resources regenerate and are endless so eventually their value drops as more are available. now, gatherer sells, eventuall, and he could do so to someone with spells. This someone could in exchange exchange him some stones because once enchanted they are usable/transferable individually. Wizard pays with something that is regenerable for him, spells, and stone gatherer sells something he continues to have access too. Now, the scenario continues, the wizard has no actual use for the spells because he HAS THE SPELLS, so the enchanted stones will eventually end up on the market in the hands of those that don't have those spells.

Everybody is happy

Am I missing anything here or you are just hasty to complain?

[Burns]

Yes, indeed you miss something: You made the gatherers monopolists. They control the supply, if they choose to not gather any stones to keep the supply low, they can ask for horrendous prices. And that they will. So the sorcerers who wish to enchant a stone don't just pay in regenerating spells, but in silver and other things, which are not regenerating for the magician.

You think that the magicians will buy the first two stones in silver, and then by able to get new stones in exchange for one enchanted stone? Really?
Am i missing something or are you that unfamiliar with how people work when they get a power?

PS: I doubt not that it all makes sense in your head, but you often tend to forget that most people value their personal gain higher than the good of the game. This isn't a personal attack on you, i'm just trying to point out the flaw in your plan.

Edited July 9, 2011 by Burns

[Muratus del Mur]

there are two options
1) have the stones in game sooner than ages later, like now, risking monopol and riduculous prices, missuse, etc
2) have the stones when everything else fits in, waiting ages for it, and oh guess what, the other things can't be in because the stones are not in and so on.

[b]You are severely underestimating my choices when it comes to selecting people[/b], and i am also getting increasingly pissed off on such atitude. I am sure everything would have been fine if one of the ancient players was to get this ability. MD is not a single-player game, there shouldn't be a way for each person to get what they need without player2player interaction. The only thing i need to be careful about is that these NEEDED things won't depend on money, and stones, or resources in general, don't...they depend on the gatherers, on the way they are, their activity, their personality.

The market price is simple to decide, auction.
You think they will get rich and popular? maybe..exactly why I don't want to pic a "veteran" for this job. A vet would ask those insane prices you talk about..or worse, they would use the stones for their own use.

when its none you complain its none and when is something you complain why it is. MD has been like that since when it started, experimental, with unstable and potentially abusable things always. Some people will work with what it is some will wait to see it finished without understanding "finishing md" will never happen.

After the memory stones there will be the learning stones and after that the research features , after that new resources, with other monopoly, and so on. The "edge" of the development will always be expensive and hard to get, compare it with the modern days technology.

You look at the incident and miss the big picture. It happens that each day i am surrounded by people that think they know better because the saw a flaw in what i do, yet nobody thinks that it might be intentional. It is offensive and patronizing to act like "I know better" and I am sorry i am forced to act like that, but I DO know better.

Guess what..the changes i am doing these days will cause a pissing contest in md. EVERYBODY will get their own reason to be upset on something. Newbies (as i;ve been told NOOBS is offensive) will think these features are for old players and that i keep expanding md when basic functionality is broken. Vets will think i am ignoring their progress and put power into the hands of unexperienced players.

I should stop this before i get realy angry. Time for an other 12h marathon.

[Hedge Munos]

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1310238846' post='87454']

After the memory stones there will be the learning stones and after that the research features , after that new resources, with other monopoly, and so on. The "edge" of the development will always be expensive and hard to get, compare it with the modern days technology.[/quote]

Learning stones? Oooh, that sounds interesting. I wonder if they will combine with spells as well...or maybe something else. This will be fun. And new resources...Hm. Looking forward to these updates. These memory stones seem like a good idea (so far ), so thanks Mur.

Excitement!

Hedge

Edited July 9, 2011 by Hedge Munos

[Muratus del Mur]

bah..the things i disclose in anger ..lol
pretend you don't know

[Hedge Munos]

What're you talking about?



Hedge

[Ackshan Bemunah]

Yes, what is a learning stone?

Research is out, which seems to imply that so are they...

[Pipstickz]

Memory stones are harvest-able, blank "learning stones" that can be harvested by tools currently controlled by GG citizens. They can be infused with a spell by somebody who has enough casts, for either two or three casts upon use of the infused stone.

[Ackshan Bemunah]

That is what memory stones are. Mur mentioned memory stones, but also mentioned "learning stones". What are those?