Is this allowed?

[ERO]

is still an abuse, regardless of your argumentation, Yrthilian...if others have done the same abuse in the past, doesn't mean that MP should do it too...

Edited November 9, 2011 by ERO

[Maebius]

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1320841367' post='95526']
The Fusioneer's have the responsibility of managing Heat jar's. Before they got turned into public items the heat jars where
used and managed by the fusioneers and that is what they are doing. Managing the tool.
Personally i dont care about the announcement of the shared tool as it is a complete contradiction to the alliance role.
again remember the tool was the alliances before a bunch more got created and put into shared status.
So the fact that the fusioneers feel they have a right to manage such a tool is not unjustified.[/quote]

It is my feeling and understanding that announcements and changes happening 'later' in Time tend to trump past ones. In both MD and reality. (women can vote now? no wai!! )

Your permission may be justified, it is now a question of fairness. While we can't answer that in a public forum, folks are free to express their opinions here. For, or against.

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1320841367' post='95526']
So it is like this. When Mur states it is 100% abuse and should not be done
then Mighty may stop doing it that way. But if that is the case then nardolsk i think is it should stop taking all
the water tools like he has been as that is a worse case of abuse. that what you lot are moaning about
but you have done nothing to stop him or complain much about it.
[/quote]

I also can not speak for sir NAdrolski, but I am personally experienced in grabbing water buckets and sharing them with both himself, and ANY Marind Bell citizen that requests one (freely). Since many of the water tools are locked to non-citizens, and the fact they are readily shared if asked, it is not quite the same as "hoarding" them on a special account, or however you'll describe an empty Aramor, in my opinion. You may see it differently.

If I were to ask to borrow a Heat Jar, may I? I'm honestly asking here, publically, and will use it in any manner which would follow the rules of the Fusioneers Alliance.
Not a named "alliance" jar, but one of the shared jars that would have been grabbed from the mountaintop and will reset at the end of the week. May I, please?

Edited November 9, 2011 by Maebius

[Pipstickz]

I suggest Yrth gets a penalty point for condoning such abuse, and MP gets off with a warning. Anyone else?

[Burns]

Kings get penalty points for abusing king tools, which Yrth didn't.

[Udgard]

[quote name='phantasm' timestamp='1320839295' post='95523']
The only two lands I know that has a rule regarding resource collection are LR and GG (with the don't deplete <50% rule). And how have these rules balanced the market?

The Tribunal has a rule of no depletion under 60%. Though we have no king (that is ever around for its citizens that is) we have all decided upon this rule and do regular checks to see who is depleting resources. If there is a rule in LR its blatantly disregarded, as almost always there is huge amounts of total depletion in that land.
[/quote]
Thanks for the additional information. I only have access to the land rules page on the citizenship page (which only has the rules for the mainlands), so it's very useful to know the rules of non-main lands.
And yes, unfortunately land rules only apply to citizens, so depletion by non-citizens can't be controlled (and it's hard to keep faith that there are no rule breaches by citizens as well - although I would see why citizens would deplete a resource if they saw the resources are being depleted by outsiders anyways).

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1320841367' post='95526']
The Fusioneer's have the responsibility of managing Heat jar's. Before they got turned into public items the heat jars where
used and managed by the fusioneers and that is what they are doing. Managing the tool.
Personally i dont care about the announcement of the shared tool as it is a complete contradiction to the alliance role.
again remember the tool was the alliances before a bunch more got created and put into shared status.
So the fact that the fusioneers feel they have a right to manage such a tool is not unjustified.
[/quote]
Yes, I can see how the fusioneers (and dowsers and woodcutters) would feel it unfair that their tools are suddenly made public. It doesn't really justify abusing "loopholes" (which is even arguable if there's an actual hole there) to maintain monopoly. Besides, doesn't the fusioneers already get the better end of the stick compared to the other 2 resource guilds? From what I understand the fusioneers still have some tools of their own, while the others lost all their tools and must rely on shared ones (CMIIW here).

And as a King, I do think it's really your job to do care about rules that are put on announcement.

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1320841367' post='95526']
To answer to whom gave the permission for Mighty P to do as he has been doing. It was me and i stand by that.
This is just a case of Mighty finding a loop hole to the rules that have not been plugged. He is not using an alt.
The armours are not ALT's they are something else. They are not necessarily dead account's ether.
[/quote]
Right, the ALT "loophole". If that's your argument, then I would argue this:
[quote][b]Severity warning on tool related crime punishments[/b]
Getting tools and placing them on alts will be considered a serious crime from now on. If the interface allows you to, you can grab more than one tool or from more than one location, but [b]using more accounts to take more tools from same place is a CRIME[/b]. Because the obvious temptation that is now bigger than ever with all the new tools and the valuable resources, this crime will be punished more severely than normal. Jail time from 2 month to 4 month plus additional penalties such as confiscating resources on all accounts, trade ban and anything else needed based on the severity of your action. Things will get more and more interesting in the upcoming period, don't spend that time in jail and don't waste my or the Councils time to catch you doing this particular crime. To make things "worse" i am placing a bounty reward for anyone successfully spotting such crime and help catching the criminals.[/quote]
You can't normally take more than 1 of a certain type of shared item with one account. MP is using the aramors to take more tools from the same place, so if we're going to argue over semantics I can argue that this whole thing is breaking the rules at the first place anyways.

You are a king. Mur himself has stated that he will make changes to the system to prevent [b]this [/b]kind of [b]abuse[/b], yet you do not feel compelled to change your policy?

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1320841367' post='95526']
This sort of thing has been done many times in the past and has always been abused. Just when someone
has done it with a tool like this now you all complain. Why didn't you moan about the woodcutters and their abuse?

But if that is the case then nardolsk i think is it should stop taking all
the water tools like he has been as that is a worse case of abuse. that what you lot are moaning about
but you have done nothing to stop him or complain much about it.

So if you are going to start picking on this sort of thing then bring every one into it that is abusing and not just
the one guild or player. But all of them and i mean ALL of them. It is funny how you lot decided to gang up
on one player until they give up and not bother others whom have been abusing the system for a much longer time.
[/quote]
Personally, I didn't complain about this "abuse" of shared tools that the woodcutters and nad are supposedly doing since I don't even know it exists. But I find it utterly ridiculous to tell myself not to do anything about an abuse that does come into my knowledge simply because I do not know of all the other abuses that have been happening.

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1320841367' post='95526']
The only reason this is coming to light is that is has curved the greed a little and the greedy are upset by it.
All this has come down to one thing farming what ever you can and abuse it all. To me all you lot are doing is making a mess
of what should have been a wonderful system.
[/quote]
Uh, news flash! I've never even picked a heat jar before and don't have any plan on doing so in the near future. And if it's just greed for resource I could just take the materials I get from making items for people for myself (there's no rule on what I can do with those other than my self-imposed rule, you know). So.. could you tell me why the hell am I here again?

[Chewett]

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1320849963' post='95534']
Kings get penalty points for abusing king tools, which Yrth didn't.
[/quote]

surely a king can get any penalty points for doing anythnig bad, as long as its related to to do with their role? as for actually getting one, an abuse, not nesscarily one deserved of points.

[Ivorak]

What Mighty Pirate has done may be considered abusive, but it certainly shouldn't be punished by any action other than that of the players in game. If this is the role Mighty Pirate wishes to play, he should be allowed to do so. After all, if you need a heat jar, simply beat him there.

I feel as if MD could use more intrigue of this sort (as opposed to forum arguments and complaining) as it leads to action and creative solutions--something fun. For example, the events surrounding the murder of Mya Celestia had a number of flaws and thus (deserved) criticisms, but it also lead to great fun for many.

[Brulant]

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1320849963' post='95534']
Kings get penalty points for abusing king tools, which Yrth didn't.
[/quote]

[quote]
[color=#CCCCCC][font=Georgia,]Ann. 2058 - [2011-10-22 00:25:29 - Stage 11][/font][/color]
[b]Trust points for public roles[/b]
Public roles such as kings , that already have such points, lho leader, tk, and any other public role figures, will have points, similar as kings.[b] Each time they do something bad[/b], they get a penalty point instead of being removed from the job. [b]penalty points will regenerate over time[/b]. The exact numbers will be discussed and announced to each one. The total count of penalty points for each public figure will be visible on their profile.
[/quote]

Before that announcement Kings had a static amount of penalty points that never changed. Now their penalty points regenerate which means that the punishment is not as severe because all you have to do now is lay low for six months and you get your point back. The points can also now be taken away whenever the public figure does something "bad".
Yrth is
1) A public figure and
2) Said that he's involved.
3) Since he's a public figure, the public is free to critique his behavior.
So, I think the penalty points can easily be applied to this situation.

Pip raised the complaint, so I think it's his right to be able to suggest a punishment. That doesn't mean that his suggestion will be taken or that no one else can offer input.

Could we get a statement from the other Fusioneers? Did you know that this was going on and you were okay with it? If the entire guild decided to do this, then it's a different story in my eyes.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Brulant

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1320849963' post='95534']
Kings get penalty points for abusing king tools, which Yrth didn't.
[/quote]
As Brulant pointed out, this isn't the case, however even if it was I would just like to point out that Authority is a kingship tool as well.

That he has the Authority to make such a decision comes from him being a king. That does not by extension decide if the decision is right or wrong, just that he has the authority.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Kyphis the Bard

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1320841367' post='95526']
So if you are going to start picking on this sort of thing then bring every one into it that is abusing and not just
the one guild or player. But all of them and i mean ALL of them. It is funny how you lot decided to gang up
on one player until they give up and not bother others whom have been abusing the system for a much longer time.
[/quote]
If a 'fool' like me can start this, Yrth, then surely you can do the same. If you think somebody else is abusing tools, bring it to light.

[Mighty Pirate]

[quote name='Ivorak' timestamp='1320861280' post='95541']
What Mighty Pirate has done may be considered abusive, but it certainly shouldn't be punished by any action other than that of the players in game. If this is the role Mighty Pirate wishes to play, he should be allowed to do so. After all, if you need a heat jar, simply beat him there.

I feel as if MD could use more intrigue of this sort (as opposed to forum arguments and complaining) as it leads to action and creative solutions--something fun. For example, the events surrounding the murder of Mya Celestia had a number of flaws and thus (deserved) criticisms, but it also lead to great fun for many.
[/quote]

Thank you, this is is exactly why I did it. I thought this was a creative way to support a discussion on the role of guilds. That part worked Those who really feel betrayed can contact me or Kiley in game to receive your jar. If you can't see the fun in my actions - my advise for you is not to take things too serious and not to make a mountain out of a molehill

(Of course I will not continue with this - it takes a lot of time to move all these jars and it took almost three weeks until someone complained in public

[Chewett]

[quote name='Mighty Pirate' timestamp='1320879587' post='95556']

Thank you, this is is exactly why I did it. I thought this was a creative way to support a discussion on the role of guilds. That part worked Those who really feel betrayed can contact me or Kiley in game to receive your jar. If you can't see the fun in my actions - my advise for you is not to take things too serious and not to make a mountain out of a molehill

(Of course I will not continue with this - it takes a lot of time to move all these jars and it took almost three weeks until someone complained in public
[/quote]

I abused something

i got caught and mur said it was an abuse

quickly backtrack saying it was on purpose to create discussion

This has been a theme for years... Im still not buying it even when yrth and firs do it. its a load of bull.

[Pipstickz]

Mighty Pirate, even if I have my way and you are not officially punished, you are still responsible for what you've done. I hope you'll at least try to take that responsibility seriously, rather than the way you've been responding to this topic. I ask you to consider the effects your actions have caused for not only yourself, but your guild. I can't speak for others, but I, personally, don't want to trade with someone who is so willing to cheat the system and worse yet, someone who doesn't seem to see or care how drastic their actions have been, as long as they get off without a hitch. Nonetheless, time will tell if you have learned something or not.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Pipstickz

[Kiley]

As leader of the Fusioneers, I take full responsibility for the actions of all guild members. I was aware of MPs actions and supported it, but will go on record saying that greed was not my motivation. Anyone that has dealt with me knows that the last thing I am is greedy. In truth I thought it humorous and that it would lead many to a scavenger hunt of sorts. The who, what, and what the hell happened:) I do hope this does not turn into a forum war as this is the last thing I wanted. Mighty Pirate's character goes hand in hand with his actions. He is a pirate afterall. As for the other members of the guild, they were not aware of his actions.

[Laphers]

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1320841367' post='95526']
This sort of thing has been done many times in the past and has always been abused. Just when someone
has done it with a tool like this now you all complain. Why didn't you moan about the woodcutters and their abuse?
and no i wont start bringing in more crap of prove this prove that. I have no care to do so.
[/quote]

What woodcutters abuse? This is the first I've heard about it. I have asked my guild (myself and 2 others) to try to get a tool each week to try to limit the amount of depletion that is happening in LR and other areas. I have never asked them to hoard items or use alts to hide them away and neither do I believe that any of them have acted in such a manner. So please keep me and my guild out of your arguments unless you have some proof to your statements.

Udgard spoke about how the resource guilds may have felt with the changes to tools but as the first guild to get tools I welcomed the changes because it guaranteed that the tools wouldn't get lost on inactive players like we had experienced in the short time that the guild had been around. Yes, there were changes to be made to the guild and we are still dealing with that but ultimately I feel that it is in the guilds' best interests to not be marketing guilds (that's right, no money) but find a new focus for themselves (at least until Mur makes more changes).

Personally, I would encourage the Fusioneers to allow the jars to be freely distributed and see what actually changes (other than making money). Heat is one resource that can't be depleted so they are in a unique position to allow everyone access to the jars and not worry about depletion of resources.

[Mighty Pirate]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1320881532' post='95558']
Mighty Pirate, even if I have my way and you are not officially punished, you are still responsible for what you've done. I hope you'll at least try to take that responsibility seriously, rather than the way you've been responding to this topic. I ask you to consider the effects your actions have caused for not only yourself, but your guild. I can't speak for others, but I, personally, don't want to trade with someone who is so willing to cheat the system and worse yet, someone who doesn't seem to see or care how drastic their actions have been, as long as they get off without a hitch. Nonetheless, time will tell if you have learned something or not.
[/quote]

No doubt about that - I will take any punishment seriously. And for sure, I have already learned a lot from this discussion. And yes, I do care how drastic my actions have been - otherwise I wouldn't join this discussion. I talked to several people before I did it and I will continue discussing this with whoever cares.

[Yrthilian]

LOL @ PIP suddenly you make your self the one who cares??????

who made you the police???

Look i dont care what you think or why you think it.
Currently i dont care about much at all.

As regards penalty point i aint gona care about that ether.
I did what is within my given ablity to do. I made a decision that effected a tool that is on Golemus land.
What you, Chewy (the almighty) or anyone else want to believe or not believe does not matter.

To thoes saying the mighty taking the tool from the same place is agents the rule then the water dowsers are just as guilty
for having multiple of the same bloody tool.

How about this. I will make the tipical responce that is made towards any LR player or someone that brings other things to light.
you are all just a bunch on moaners. Get over it. Making post about it apparently does not solve the stupid issue. PIP is just pip he
like to create DRAMA just for the hell of it so i dont see this being a topic of any worth when he is involved.

As regards me in game. You have not interacted with me in game to know anything that is going on. When it comes to the forum
you ALL know by now when i state something official from me as KING i use a sig. Me as a player think you all need to get off the
band wagon just for a small bit and learn to embrace things and not jump on the forums and have a bloody moan about things.

It is no wonder MD is loosing players by the bucket load when there is nothing but a huge negativity and hatred within the realm.
This topic to be honest is pointless. it is just another one of those moan moan moan and nothing ever gets done.

Well with my little rant there it might as it seem to only take someone going on on of this stupid rant to get any notice
or action. So lets see if little pippy gets his supposed way. But it wont matter as for one i wont give a (insert word not allowed to be used)

Edited November 10, 2011 by Yrthilian

[Maebius]

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1320929391' post='95581']... who made you the police???... [/quote]
We all take on different Roles, don't we?

I for one am sorry you feel slighted, but from the most recent announcements, it seems Mur agrees this was a bad idea.
I will however, grant it was what I refer to as "creative use of game mechanics". Testing the boundaries of what is acceptable is the best way to create change, or confirm those boundaries further, so kudos for the creative attempt, regardless of outcome.
Now that it's over, lets get back to enjoying ourselves, please?

[phantasm]

well said maebius, and agreed. Chalk this one up to "testing". Wether right, wrong, or indifferent, the changes will soon be in place.

[ignnus]

So you never intended to make cash by destroying Heat Jars,oh we should all be sorry for you,in fact by the decree king of LR gave to me as of this day i'm starting an imaginary moaners guild responsible with gathering pretty flowers and handing them out to new players,so they don't quit.

[Passant the Weak]

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1320929391' post='95581']
It is no wonder MD is loosing players by the bucket load when there is nothing but a huge negativity and hatred within the realm.
This topic to be honest is pointless. it is just another one of those moan moan moan and nothing ever gets done.
[/quote]

I am a young player in the realm, I will try to give you a positive answer, so that you see that positive vibes also exist within the realm.

When i discovered strange things were happening with the jars (from the log room), I first consulted someone thinking there was an Alt abuse (I had not noticed the char involved was an empty aramor), and when corrected I went to GG to investigate a bit.
I left clues of my investigations there at tempest fort. Also on a certain wreck. I also talked with Mighty Pirate (I did not know he was involved).

What I would have [b]loved [/b]seeing is some kind of reaction, some kind of Role Play happening. I personnaly believe mighty pirate was a great idea in term of role playing and providing fun and buzz to the realm. But no role play happened. Mighty avoided answering me too directly to not disclose himself as the instigator of this event.

I am almost 100% sure that if you, King, and you, Fusioneers, had made this an interactive event in the realm, using Mood Panel to communicate your claim on heat Jars, using your citizens (instead of an empty aramor) to store jars, then we would all have had some fun together. I know already 3 people who were ready to fight you for the jar grabbing (and we did not try to recruit more, as the topic evolved quite fast).

Instead, this appeared as an attempt to bypass a game mechanism, using a loophole, and that does not give much fun to anyone.

My point: make positive (or at least fun) things, and the realm (well at least young players, as I know those more than I know vets) will react positively and pro-actively.

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1320929391' post='95581']
To thoes saying the mighty taking the tool from the same place is agents the rule then the water dowsers are just as guilty
for having multiple of the same bloody tool.
[/quote]
Do you have proof?

As for your question about me being the police: I made myself this 'role', and if you have a problem with it you're free to talk to me.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Pipstickz

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1320929391' post='95581']
To thoes saying the mighty taking the tool from the same place is agents the rule then the water dowsers are just as guilty
for having multiple of the same bloody tool.
[/quote]
Aaaaaaaaactually...... The complaint isn't that he took them. The complaint is that he put them in a place no-one could retrieve them from, not even himself.

He can take them all he wants. The reason people are complaining is because he was completely removing them from play. There is no way short of Mur for those jars to be recovered when they are placed on an aramor.

So, comparing this to the water dowsers, who from my understanding only take all those buckets and other tools so that non-citizens of MB don't take them (they can't use them anyway), doesn't make too much sense. The Water Dowser take them to keep them IN play, whereas Mighty Pirate was intentionally REMOVING them from play.
Similar action, but the result is the opposite.

[Yrthilian]

moan moan moan

I dont care dont you get that???

have fun with the moaning session.

[Pipstickz]

Suit yourself, Yrth.

I'd like to thank both Kiley and Mighty Pirate for their understanding, and I ask that this thread be closed, since the issue is resolved.