Protectors and wanna be Protectors

[lashtal]

Good morning everybody,

currently we have 4 "stable" MP6: *Burns*, Amoran K Kol, *Shemhazaj* and Azull (correct me if I'm missing someone). Both Shemhazaj and Azull would need more adepts/worshippers (or at least not to lose too many) to let them stay on MP6.
Besides, we have 3 people willing to be "MP6 for a day" to upgrade creatures and so on (Manda, Lone Wolf, Pipstickz).

The question is: is there a way to allow the "stable" Protectors to continue to be so, giving also the possibility to those who are willing to upgrade creatures to do it?

I think one way can be found, but I need both your feedback and an estimation on how many active adepts/worshippers can be found in the realms. An indicative number could be found simply counting how many adepts each of the above Protectors currently have. That would represent our community potential.

Assuming the sum of all the adepts reaches at least 150, we could allow 1 temporary MP6 at a time (also limiting the risk for the stable ones to fall), just by scheduling the advancements.

Let's say, for example: Manda has to be pushed to MP6 (since I think he was the first one to ask it), hence he needs 30 adepts. *Burns* realizes he has 40 adepts, while he need only 30. He can contact 10 of them (I would suggest the most active ones) and ask them to shift to Manda. Amoran, Shem and Azull could do the same, until Manda reaches the required amount of adepts.
Once Manda has done with his business, he can contact his adepts and make them shift to the new one (Pip? Lone Wolf?), so that gradually everybody who needs to be a temporary MP6 can deal with it.

A calendar can be kept, simply stating who's the next to help (also considering how much the wanna-be-MP6 is close to MP5 cap).

Also, a (5?) safety margin can be introduced, if *Burns* thinks he is not sure enough having just 30 adepts he can keep 35, and tell other 5 to shift to the temporary one.

This is just my idea to manage it, let me know what you think about it.

lashtal

[Quas]

30 adepts are allot...and unstable, if one stable protector remains with exactly 30 adepts its [b]very[/b] risky. An adept can go inactive any second..

[lashtal]

@Quas:

All the details can be discussed, assuming safety margins and so on.
All the numbers posted were just as an example.
What I'd like to know is whether this idea could work or not.

lashtal

[Fire Starter]

I smell a Storm coming this way...

Aside this, also a list of the "helpers" should be kept. For when the time comes, they will also need our help.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Fire Starter

[Chewett]

It depends what loyalties people have, Personally i wouldnt shift protectors since that requires losing a large chunk of loyalty.

I would say 40 adepts is a good safety margin, but have not been a protector so i do not know how much these values change.

Now, Have you considered if someone else wants to be a stable mp6? I myself have been considering going for MP6 becuase iv never done it and its something i would like to do. Not only for the creatures, but i feel that it will be much easier to help people if i have the ease of them being my adepts so i dont have to have a friends list a million players long, and as people want help i can specifically target and talk with them, wheras me talking them and going "im protector of X, i dont need your help"

You will especially have problems if all the current protectors want to stay, i could for example gather a few adepts from each protector and get all of them falling down...

Or do you just ignore any new people who want to be a stable mp6 for a couple months, and just pretend they dont exist and attempt to manage such a system ignoring their influence.

[Burns]

It won't work out. Why? I have to cheat to keep MP6 even now, without 'sharing' adepts at all. Some change to somebody else, some don't log in every week, some leave. To have any chance to keep MP6, i have to poke people outside of MD means to log in just so they count for my adept count.

Since adepts need 100 active days, competition got a lot rougher, by the time you can recruit an adept they don't need immidate help anymore.

[Shemhazaj]

[i][color=#808080]just to picture some of the statistics.[/color][/i]

[i][color=#808080]Friday night I had 47 active adepts.[/color][/i]
[i][color=#808080]Saturday evening I had 43 active adepts.[/color][/i]
[i][color=#808080]Sunday morning I had 32 active adepts.[/color][/i]

[i][color=#808080]at that point I started writing on Mood Panel again....[/color][/i]
[i][color=#808080]it's not the first time such thing happened.[/color][/i]
[i][color=#808080]the plan of sharing adepts sounds good in theory, but unfortunately there's a difference between theory and how things actually happen.[/color][/i]

[Pipstickz]

Nobody is entitled to MP6. I will usually be somebody's adept for a few days, if they ask, but the "Please don't let me drop" Mood Panels are getting a bit old. There's nothing wrong with old protectors dropping and new ones coming in.

And of course, there's alts. I'm willing to bet that all of the current protectors have alt adepts, and I can guarantee that they all have alt worshipers. The rules have never been very strict about alt adepts and worshipers: Liberty went MP6 by making 40 alts back in the day(Lib1-Lib40), and was never punished for it. The "official reason" was that it was his role, and now nobody else can have that role, but that's just an excuse. I don't know what the real reason was, and it doesn't matter anymore, the fact is that it happened.

[Fyrd Argentus]

My MP6 strategy of recruiting adepts by helping those who were new and needed help would of course no longer work with the 100 day limit. Even then I had to work hard to keep 30-35 adepts active. The drop rate is huge. I never used an alt, but some of my adepts hinted they might be alts of people I knew and not to ask too many questions.

I think my fans supported me as long as I was doing a good job of helping and healing.

But, it's a lot of work to be a good protector, and a lot of work to keep enough adepts. It stopped being fun after awhile. Glad, I was, that others wanted a turn at it.

I still help those who ask, of course.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Fyrd Argentus

[Amoran Kalamanira Kol]

An mp6's stability is a shifting process. While on Monday you may have 40 adepts, and may consider your position to be stable, inactivity due to the daily life of your adepts or other reasons may cause the number to fall to 32 two days later.

30 is not a safe margin, if you fall just one below 30, your mp6 status goes away as well. If several people are trying to go mp6 for a day to upgrade creatures, at the same time taking 7 adepts or 5 adepts from each protector to keep them at a level of 30 could be more harmful than helpful.

Currently Amoran has a number of 35 adepts that is rapidly falling due to inactivity or other reasons. I do not consider this a safe and stable number because of the fact that it is falling quickly, however were it to stay stable during the period o 3 days, and were I to gain one or two afterward, I would consider Amoran's position to be stable.

Unfortunately, Amoran is not doing healing rounds at the moment due to Heads Contest (you can't cast spells during the heads contest), and activity in the realm in general tends to fall during each Heads Contest. I am uncertain of why, it has just always been that way.

In my opinion, trying to gain adepts through bribery and other "shady" means during a Heads Contest is highly disrespectful toward the protectors who are struggling to keep their positions so that they can actually use their spells to help people in the game.

I would highly like it if a reasonable solution was found to make this work, and while it's true that you do not need spells to help people- it is very nice to be able to heal people and give them attack and defense boosts to help them fight, especially if they struggle with fighting in general. Some of the protector spells cannot be purchased in the wish shop, and I think there is a good reason for that. (Spells such as 'curse' should never ever be used carelessly.)

But some.. like prot_attack and prot_def I find to be strange.. in that they are not in the wish shop. Perhaps they should be?

Aside from providing the spells in the shop to be earned via wishpoint, I think that if there were a set number of people who were available to help- or (though I don't like this suggestion, it is a suggestion) if there were one alt per person who was adepted to a protector dedicated to help people upgrade their creatures in a timely manner, that might help as well.

There is, as well, the more difficult suggestion of creating a different system for the mp6 who are dedicated to serving younger players, and giving the current mp6 system to people who want to upgrade their creatures. Though that may be unfair, as it would require coding and time that many of the game coders/creators do not have.

All in all this is a difficult situation, and your suggestion may work lashtal.. but there are also many unpredictable circumstances that could lead a protector to dropping as well.

For those who wish to know:

I look at mp6 as a sort of "job" that Amoran should do (like a responsibility). I've been in the game for a very long time, and I feel that my age and experiences in the game - as well as the character I play - can help others enjoy the game more. The new system is hard, and it feels very much like a chore to be able to be a good protector in the sense that I must work extra hard to keep adepts and worshipers, even if that means going through the game 4 times a day to heal people and sending out messages to adepts to see how they are progressing.

There is also an issue that may be raised, that Amoran is not accurately using her spells to protect people- given the comments during the needle testing with Eon. My response will always be the same in regards to that situation: If I can use the spells that I've earned through helping people, to help something in game or to make the game more interesting for others- I certainly don't mind doing it, so long as the person at the other end of the screen is enjoying himself or herself too.

[size=2][edit: edited to add more suggestions][/size]

Edited November 29, 2011 by Amoran Kalamanira Kol

[Shadowseeker]

I think this discussion simply tells us that we wish for the improved mp6 more promised, a more fluid one, especially since creatures would now need mp6.

I wonder if it really will be better or not...then again, currently we can only sustain maybe 4 mp6, and hopefully this number will be greater after the change.

[Zorica]

lock all creatures that are upgraded above your MP level during HC/BHC!

i am a new player, 45 days of age, and i was under the impression that MP levels have meaning. to proceed to higher mp level for a short time only to upgrade crits feels wrong to me.

as for the mp6 dilemma (ad hoc thoughts):

change the system, add some kind of mp6 stability stat. a minmum number of that stat is required to become/be/stay mp6
every adept adds a certain amount of points to that stability. the longer you are an adept of the same mp6-player the more you add to his stability.

example:

you need 30 stability to stay mp6.
at the beginning each adept adds 1.0 points to the stability. this increases with time. after 1 year you add 2.0 points (which is max). so when you manage to keep 15 adepts for 1 year those 15 would be enough to stay mp6.
the increase of stat addition per day would just be 1/365

quality>quantity

Edited November 29, 2011 by Zorica

[Prince Marvolo]

The idea of becoming protector just to upgrade creatures, is in my opinion, a bad thing.

First and most important: it damages those who already are MP6, and are actually doing with it what they are supposed to do with it. ("stealing adepts") While it is already difficult enough to keep up that status without other people making it more difficult.

Secondly, and my personal opinion: I think it is intuitively wrong to just get 30 adepts (which is supposed to be something like a mentor-learner thing) for the reason of upgrading some creatures.
And if you find 30 players willing to be your adept for a moment, just so you can upgrade something, (which makes me doubt about the loyalty of said players) it would still make me (and I think others too) feel bad about the fact that the system is kinda exploited.
It'd be kinda in the spirit of 'lets make everything easy and accessible' - Which is kinda against the idea about MP6.

There is a reason that some creatures are only avaiable at the highest level at MP6, and thus they are not for everyone. Deal with it, that's the whole point.



As for the MP6 changes to attain more stability:
I do think there are changes needed. Maybe focus less on adepts but more on worshippers? Like some relationship between "adepts x worshies should be over a number"
As in, to become MP6 you'd need 50 adepts (example), but for every worshipper you get, you'd need less adepts. but then poured into a fitting formula.
Since worshippers are more stable, the more you get, the more stable you'd be. And if you have less worshippers, ans thus beeing a bad protector, you'd be a lot less stable.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Prince Marvolo' timestamp='1322591242' post='96816']
There is a reason that some creatures are only avaiable at the highest level at MP6, and thus they are not for everyone. Deal with it, that's the whole point.
[/quote]

It seems totally unreasonable to say that you are only allowed to fully level your creatures if you are a protector and from what i have seem, many protectors do not care about combat. Wheras there are a much larger group who do care. Mur himself said that MP6 is a stage EVERYONE will go to, even if its just for a couple days. Currently we are in limbo between his changes, and i dont see there is any point getting worked up about X or Y.

MP6 at the moment is hard for protectors. If their adepts are so easily turned by some silver, then i question if they are really good enough protectors to their adepts.

[quote name='Prince Marvolo' timestamp='1322591242' post='96816']
As for the MP6 changes to attain more stability:
I do think there are changes needed. Maybe focus less on adepts but more on worshippers? Like some relationship between "adepts x worshies should be over a number"
As in, to become MP6 you'd need 50 adepts (example), but for every worshipper you get, you'd need less adepts. but then poured into a fitting formula.
Since worshippers are more stable, the more you get, the more stable you'd be. And if you have less worshippers, ans thus beeing a bad protector, you'd be a lot less stable.
[/quote]

Actually i think thats adverse to what it should be. Personally i see Worshippers as peolpe who help you, and you can help, but the adept count as a "view" of you as a protector. One person can leave your adeptship but if the majority still likes you, they are still stuck with you as protector. Wheras if you lose a large amount, you drop. Its a kind of public opinion. (this is assuming you have around 40 adepts, because personally i dont feel you can be a true or stable adept at the 30 level.