Add Damage By Usage to Every Tool

[DarkRaptor]

It makes some sense to me that the usage of a tool can lead to damage it.
So at every use a tool should have a associated risk of damage, that risk would be higher as the resource is closer to depletion.

For example, if
1. After gathering the resource will stay in 60% to 99% of it's max, risk should be minimum so the possible tool damage would be random from 0% to 5%
2. After gathering the resource will stay in 30% to 59% of it's max, risk should be medium so the possible tool damage would be random from 10% to 50%
3. After gathering the resource will stay in 1% to 29% of it's max, risk should be high so the possible tool damage would be random from 20% to 70%
4. After gathering the resource will stay at 0% of it's max (depleted), risk should be very high so the possible tool damage would be random from 40% to 100%

The damage penalize the tool efectiveness for some amount of uses or until item regroup. Or we can be more creative and have a guild with tool repairing ability (smiths,etc..)

This would require that tool efectiveness and player skill should be considered as factors to the amount of resources gathered per use, we could have a formula like this:

[b]Gathered_QTD = Trunc ( ToolEfectiveness * ( 1 + Trunc(PlayerSkill / ToolExpertiseLevel) ) )[/b]

Where:
[b]ToolEfectiveness[/b] would be 1 (100%) when not damaged and 0 (0%) when fully damaged
[b]PlayerSkill[/b] would be based in the current player stat
[b]ToolExpertiseLevel[/b] would be the skill level required to take advantage of the tool and collect more than one resource in just one use. This already exists, is tool dependent and i belive it's between 50 and 90..(?)



[b]Expected beneficts:[/b]
1. Players could be lead to avoid depletion to protect their tool
2. Since players will need to gather many resources to raise their stat they may be willing to let the resource at max regeneration level
3. In time Players with high collecting stats will tend to only be able to gather in locations with many resources or their tool will be damaged

Known exploits:
1. In shared tools when close to regroup the player can easily risk the depletion


note:
This is a slightly modified re-sugestion from [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12940-resource-skills-and-how-they-effect-collecting/page__view__findpost__p__121540"]Resource skills and how they effect collecting[/url]

edit: spelling

Edited February 19, 2013 by DarkRaptor

[dst]

Imo, the exploit is something I would defo abuse. Imagine this: I have 3 shared tools (same tool) and 2 days (or 1) before the regen, I deplete. Maybe I will not be able to deplete everything but I will manage to do it in few places.

Also, what happens with memory stones? There are lots of places with only 1 item.
And also, players that have a "better TZ" meaning they are able to be active during the time the resources regenerate would have a huge advantage.

So...I am not that found of this system :D

[Chewett]

I like the point of view, of damaging the tool, im not so happy about the idea of depletion, thats a social thing and shouldnt really come into this.

[dst]

And another issue that Eon pointed to me: what happens to independent tools? They don't reset. This means that people with independent tools (for which most of them worked really hard) will be the most affected. I don't think that's fair either.

[Maebius]

And another issue that Eon pointed to me: what happens to independent tools? They don't reset. This means that people with independent tools (for which most of them worked really hard) will be the most affected. I don't think that's fair either.

 

 

Hmm,  if shared tools reset, perhaps that might "reset"  independant Tools during the same processing 'tick"?    Yes, more coding needed, to get all the lsit of IDs or flag them somehow, but it's a possibility, while we are brainstorming.  :D

I like the idea of "tool repairs" in general too, and perhaps could be Crafters or the Guilds responsibility to handle?   (Dowsers for buckets,  Fusioneers for Heat Jars, Woodcutters,  etc... not sure how to handle MemoryStones, or Fenths, or similar Tools at the moment though)

[Valldore Nal]

The idea of tool getting damaged sounds good in the way of making things more realistic and indeed gives a lot of room for new roles (possibly as others said new guild/guilds to repair the items ) 

 

I'd like to suggest though that the ones responsible for the repairs (if it's not done automatically on reset times/any other occasion) would better suit one or more (specialized on categories of tools) guilds and better affiliate them with the non-main lands (not sure about the concept of the guilds and how well it would fit though). The reason i'm suggesting affiliation to non-main lands is that those guilds would have a lot of power over the tools, so it would be better suited for them to be neutral regarding the various main-lands politics and diplomatic relations. 

 

Also if this gets implemented, i believe it should get implemented for independent tools as well (again for the shake of realism, i don't see a point for only shared tools to get damaged ). 

 

But, as others stated again, people have worked hard to get those tools. So maybe there could be a way for someone to fix a tool on his own (for a greater cost than if it was done from the appropriate guild) and possibly give the choice of repairing one before it gets destroyed (conservation). The reason behind this suggest is that if someone has worked hard to obtain a certain independent tool but he is not in good relations with the appropriate guild to repair it, he/she should have another way to keep the tool in working shape (maybe not in top shape, but working one )

 

Even a stat (or more) could be implemented regarding the repairing of tools (and possibly other things) related to the "profession's knowledge" that would be needed to perform such a task.(carpenter, smith etc )

[Miq]

Tool damage and Smith/Artisans sounds lovely but i dislike the idea of it having anything do to with depletion.

[DarkRaptor]

Thank you all for comments

First, i'm NOT against depletion or overcollect, people have tools and should be able to use them as they want! (I usually don't overcollect but that is just my choice)
I really like the current system where people have the freedom to do their choices and that choices affects the others.

The only issue i (personally) found is that the current system is too unbalanced because is infinitly more easy to keep a resource depleted than the oposite.

Problems pointed so far:
1. Abusable exploit
  Depletion would be possible and that's perfectly ok from my point of view.

2. Places with 1 item and similar
  My complete failure because i've not though of that in the formula, but may be easilly fixable by using the maxpossibleregen value instead of the max on the formula.
 
3. players that have a "better TZ"
  They currently already have advantage.. one possible easy solution would be to randomize the resource regeneration, something like base_regen_hour + Random(12hour). I would avoid for now other more complicated regen schemes.
 
4. depletion, a social thing
  I completly agree, so a possible solution to the formula would be the ToolEfectiveness have a lower cap of 20%?40%?

5. independent tools vs fairness
  I agree that like i've presented the independent tools would be penalized, my bad again because when i thought of the system the regroup would NOT fix the tools :-P
  So.. keeping the tool fix at regroug and complicating even a bit more..
  maybe the Tools could have a Resistance Factor? This factor would be applied to the ToolEfectiveness along with the resulting gathering damage effect.
  A shared tool ResitanceFactor = 1; Independent Tool Resistance Factor = 5 (or more)
  ToolEfectiveness = ToolEfectiveness - ( (ToolEfectiveness * ToolDamage) / ResistanceFactor )

6. repair the items
    Guilds or players with specific personal skills would open a good branch of RP characters
    I dislike monopolies and think that anyone of us, giving the enough effort, is able to accomplish a task so for me the Tool Repairing should be a skill that we all could get and try to increase.
    Example: A shovel gets damaged to 30% (ToolEfectiveness), the owner goes to the anvil lights the forge(lots of heat needed..) and then based on his Blacksmith skill he will try do a repairment with a percentage of sucess. Everytime he attemps he gains a little bit more of the skill.

IF in a smith's guild the player would receive +XX of the Blacksmith skill...

7. Remove "depletion" from the formulae as a factor for ToolDamage
   This would simplify the formulas :-)
   I would be ok with it also, but why to ease sooo much some roles? (being depleter a role)
   
   
   
Okay.. i must admit that this is getting more and more complex.. and at the same time much more far from ever be implemented :-D
 
ps: i call overcollect when the max possible regeneration of a location is compromised.
 

 

[Chewett]

as i said, i like the idea, i might simplify it and discuss it with you at a later date.

[Change]

The only issue i (personally) found is that the current system is too unbalanced because is infinitly more easy to keep a resource depleted than the oposite.

 

Isn't this the same as real life? I'm all for incentives against depletion, but MD should still stay realistic. I like the fact that lots of things in MD do reflect real life. If depletion became just as hard as conservation, then this aspect of MD would be totally different from how things are in real life. It's much easier to hunt a species to extinction, reduce the amount of trees, etc., than it is to do the opposite. This is simply because it takes a much smaller time for a resource to be harvested than the time it takes for a resource to regrow.

 

I personally don't like the idea of tool damage from overuse. How would it fit in with MD's physics? If anything, I'd think that a tool would get 'rusty' and broken from a lack of use, not an 'overuse'.

 

I think a better idea would be to have the maximum resources in an area reflect the average amount of resources in an area. So if, on average, a resource is always at 0/20, after awhile the maximum will shrink to 19. To balance this out, if a resource is at its max on average, the maximum will eventually increase. The only restriction I'd put on this is a resource can't be reduced below a 1 maximum  in an area (that is, go extinct). Thus, while it's way more easier to reduce the maximum of a resource, there's a limit on the reduction. In contrast, while it's much harder to increase the maximum of a resource, the maximum can grow indefinitely. This would be a lengthy process. Perhaps the average could be taken after each tool reset? So, if some water is at 5/5 all week, at the next reset it will grow to 6/6.

 

Since I said that it makes more sense for tools to become rusty, this should happen with resources too. Thus the speed that resources grow/shrink at increases or decreases with viscosity. If there's an area in Golemus that no one hardly ever goes to, the resources there shouldn't grow as fast as an area in Marind Bell where people pass through every day. More heat/attention is paid to the high traffic area, and so the resources grow more as a result.

 

I'm not opposed to the idea of tool damage, I just don't think that it should work like this.

[Chewett]

Tools get damaged from use if you are inexperienced. They also, in most cases will get damaged from use, basic wear, and accidents.

The concept of wear fits in quite nicely. I wa thinking of making independent tools have some wookie magic against tarnish. But I won't have time for this until Iv at least started omega.

[Aquellia]

I was reading earlier a post from Mur about implimenting skills or skill trees that would allow someone to specialize in something. It included the concept of not activly using the skill or actively using another skill will decrease the skill. Which I thought was a very good idea. It would also fit in very well with the ability to reapair tools as a skill. The skill itself is availible to everyone but a few people may specialise in the skill. So it would give the abilty for people to repair their own items, but with guilds a significantly better result would be acheived. The same would be with harvesting and using the tools.

 

i fail dramatically at reading long posts, even if i myself tend to write quite a lot oftenly.

 

all i have to say is that the following things are in plan for a long time for future development:

 

- collect resources will make you advance a specific hierarchic branch, similar to profession, that will enable you access to more advanced tools, and give you tags to certify your evolution. Access to abilities such as spells, functional items, restricted locations specific to the profession will be available to advanced stages of each branch. Basically if you keep doing one thing you advance in that direction. However if you will do other competing things some progress will go backward as an other will advance, so that will make you pick a path so to say.

 

This is the current plan, and i believe you say the same thing.

As something that Mur has suggested adding the skill and item damage could help work towards that idea. Or be implimented as a part of it if not beforehand?

 

(The thread http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/14277-resources-and-professions/?hl=skill#entry138130)

I also agree with change that resources should grow and shrink. (although I'd add a realism cap to how much they can grow; a location with 100/100 herbs might be interpreted as an area overgrown with herb plants and out of control.) it would of course be very difficult to get it high, but some may be dedicated enough so a limit should be implimented.

 

Aquellia.

[Miq]

From Change point if the wear is going do be coded then the wear of not using should also. Stuff rots and rusts.

[dst]

From Change point if the wear is going do be coded then the wear of not using should also. Stuff rots and rusts.

:d And it rusts even more if you're outside when it rains :P

Just like the sandcastel.

[No one]

Again this crap ? This topic is getting to be SPAM for being so many of them trying to change this.

 

 

Isn't there any other thing you would like to do then "protect resources" ?

I am sorry Dark, but this subject is so old and so overtalked about that it makes me sick.

And it seems that you just continue Nad's topic and the many other before that.

 

So, let me give you my position and then you judge. Okay ?

I want water. I don't have independent water tools. I manage to get my hands on one of the shared water tool .

NOTE: shared water tools are very slow compared to the ones from MB

NOTE2: experienced gatherers get twice the amount on usage (i don't think this is a spoiler anymore)

NOTE3: Nad & gang & others wants that I don't get water

 

So, they manage to use all the 20 or so shared MB water tools and their experience (2x gathering) to collect all water before I do.

 

 

So what should I do ? Just let them at 60 % not to lose my item ?

I dare you all to judge my story and tell me what should I do. Don't look at what others are saying just post your point of view.

 

 

The gathering system is perfect as it is. You can gather the resources when you want to maximum efficiency or prevent others to gather them. And it was like that since the beginning.

 

If I remember Mur's words, the gathering should not be impended (if I am not mistaken).

Edited August 10, 2013 by No one

[Chewett]

If you wish to swear, i shall be ignoring your posts :) as a general FYI to anyone. If you cant be polite, i wont waste time reading your posts. But luckily im not the only person that is involved implementing, so swear away and entertain others who are involved if you wish.

[Zyrxae]

The gathering system is perfect as it is. You can gather the resources when you want to maximum efficiency or prevent others to gather them. And it was like that since the beginning.
 
If I remember Mur's words, the gathering should not be impended (if I am not mistaken).

The gathering system is not perfect as it is.

And to be clear, this is not a "how can we prevent No one & co from getting resources" topic, it's a "how can we make MD more realistic and create more opportunities ingame" topic.

It is also not the former kind of topic hypocritically disguised as the latter.

 

It makes some sense to me that the usage of a tool can lead to damage it.
So at every use a tool should have a associated risk of damage

I'm with Change, Miq, and dst that it makes sense that tools would get rusty from disuse, or from being outside in the rain. I don't think it makes much sense that a resource's level of depletion would significantly change the chance to damage the tool.
 

New roles/groups involving tool repair also sound both realistic and a good way to facilitate role creation and player interaction. Smiths could also possibly create new tools, either land-tied or independent, for a WP and a fair amount of materials..

 

Resources changing base amounts based on amount harvested also makes sense, within limits, and adds (literally!) another dimension to the tragedy of the commons-type social experiment we have going already.
[log="Details for wonks"]A 2D Gaussian curve like this one:

first horizontal axis: base amount of resource, running from 0 to the max possible amount of that resource
other horizontal axis: average amount of resource that week, running from 0 to the max possible amount of that resource (imagine slicing the above picture in half on a diagonal)
vertical axis: amount of base resource change going into the next week, running from 0 to maybe a fifth of the max possible amount of that resource[/log]

 

Beyond that, though—

An important facet of the resource system is that each land has access to something the other lands cannot easily get themselves.
No one, if you had something that the Water Dowsers wanted, but could not easily get, you could probably work out a deal.
But as an Easterner you don't really have this: MB doesn't seem to need candies and herbs as much as you want water tools.

Hopefully the coming changes will allow for more equitable trading by ensuring that no land(s) have too great an advantage over others.

[No one]

Zyrxae:

 

Beyond that, though—

An important facet of the resource system is that each land has access to something the other lands cannot easily get themselves.
No one, if you had something that the Water Dowsers wanted, but could not easily get, you could probably work out a deal.
But as an Easterner you don't really have this: MB doesn't seem to need candies and herbs as much as you want water tools.

Hopefully the coming changes will allow for more equitable trading by ensuring that no land(s) have too great an advantage over others.

 

So, again this is about me.

And for your information, if you didn't read Nad's topic. They simply don't want to trade with us.

 

And for the rest ... have fun. I quit looking onto these topics. It seems that you only see your own interest and you don't even try to look at what will happen with your proposals ?

 

 

About you Chewett ... I am sorry to say but you became to "affected" by your positions. (i think it is called being subjective).

You have too much decision power and that is affecting every single position that you have.

 

_____________________________

Don't call me when it will all go worse or unexpected.

[Fire Starter]

just a comma on this - shouldn't more "experienced" players with large skill from that tool get less penalty from using it as high as the skill is? Of course it shouldn't get to 100%, but smth close. And I know that will benefit the more experienced players, but they worked hard enough for reaching certain skill-levels.

 

It makes more sense to me, since when you're experienced with smth you already should know most of the ways to extend the life of a tool and not damage it that much. With experience you gain knowledge how to use the tool in a way, that will preserve it most, and still get the results you need...

 

Sorry if this is stated somewhere above - my eyes couldn't read it all. Delete this post if it doubles with smth above.

[Soothing Sands]

I see most/everyone here is talking about gathering tools and resource depletion, which is only a section of the tools that people use. Secondary/tier 2 tools which don't collect resources also don't give you any skill (as far as I know). No matter how much sand I melt I never get more efficient, the only way to do that is to accept 1 piece at a time. So I would say, skills/professions need to be worked on before we have them effect resource gatherers in a negative way. 

 

Also, smith/upgrade/repair skill sounds great, but is there a point in repairing an item you only have temporarily? When an item is returned, does it stay broken if that's how it was? If it's auto-repaired, I think that's dumb (no point in smiths) , and if it stays broken, then people will just break everything lol. Smiths might take a while to implement and would probably be on the back burner for a while.

(If I just repeated what everyone else said, whoops, my bad)