Unit Limits: Angiens, Drachorns & Archers

[Azthor]

Disclaimer: I have not, in any way or fashion, checked the veracity of the data below, it being taken directly from http://magicduel.inv...92-combat-talk/. Should you find any factual mistakes, inform me of such within this thread and this post will be edited accordingly. New suggestions, where pertinent to the topic, will likewise be added.

 

I - Drachorns: Target: All, Freeze, Antifreeze & Creature Boost: further reducing the maximum number of drachorns in a ritual has been suggested as a way of limiting the ultimate compounding of those factor. It has been suggested by multiple parties that that keying into Freeze mechanics while retaining optimal targeting and great boosts makes certain drachorn setups overly desirable, to the detriment of other rituals.

 

II - Archers: Target: All & Creature Boost: reducing the maximum number of archers has been suggested as a measure in the same veins of II, based, primarily, on the stacking of player stats/tokens, a potent targeting ability and the multiplicative nature of Creature Boost.

 

III - Angiens: Energy Burn, Antifreeze & Creature Boost: archers and, more so, drachorns, must remain desirable; by reducing the current limits as per I & III, angiens may have to be likewise capped, lest their damage potential, access to Antifreeze, tendency towards high VE and defensive stacking completely and uncircumstantially trump those attack based rituals.

 

IV - As an addendum to III, Angiens, despite their strengths, possess a strategical weakness in the possibility of which Energy Burn might backfire against them; that adds a layer of defeat circumstances - one which initiative based attack rituals lack - that can be capitalized upon by the opponent. However, whether or not it is possible to avoid succumbing to one's own Energy Burn without error by maintaining a given proportion between VE and Power, even in the event of Vitality Drain, could be the defining argument in this discussion.

 

V - Decreasing the limit for the amount of drachorns and archers in a ritual is likely to directly affect the total demand for premium creatures, consequently reducing the demand for credit and the inflow of money through the MD Shop, of fundamental importance to the game's continuity. Generally, a change concerning that gameplay element should only be considered where it is able to counterbalance one such a loss, by, for one, greatly increasing the participation of players in combat, and hence the consumption of credits.

 

Index:

 

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15716-aurasbonuses-creature-boost-skill-drain-vitality-drain-freeze-antifreeze-tokens-availability-order-opportunity-value/

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15721-target-all-creature-diversity-creature-upgrade-value/

Defend, Intoxicate, Martyrism & Protect: Availability, Opportunity Value & Targets

Heal & Regenerate: Opportunity Value, Targets & Upper Limit

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15734-rustgold-drachorns-reindrachs-wind-dragons-mutual-creature-boost/

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15733-unit-limits-angiens-drachorns-archers/

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15748-weaken-defense-lower-limit/

Honor & Negative Stats: Lower Limit

Honor & Balance: Intended Function & Current Application

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15763-reducing-the-power-of-freezes/

 

Discussion status: divergence.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Azthor

[Ary Endleg]

I think you mixed up II and III?

 

Angiens indeed are deadly as such. They have antifreeze and creatboost, they boost each other, which isn't the case for drachs. Although they don't have target all, they are still very potent with their multi and single targeting. You also need to take into account that power based skills avoid defense stat, it has direct flat effect on opponent ve. If angien player has higher init and managed to work out freezes, he would wreck havoc indeed. Hence if others are getting reduced, Burns is right in my opinion that Angiens limit would have to go down too.

[DARK DEMON]

I'm not really sure about angiens... they can be (easily) and heavily countered and made to fail and/or suicide, though that's just from my own experience.

[Ary Endleg]

This nerf would lower boosting, hence lower suicide cases. This is damage nerf. Of course there are freezes and targeting disadvantages that they suffer compared to drachs, but that's issue for other topics.

[Azthor]

@Burns: could you further develop on why the amount of angiens in a ritual should be reduced?

 

@Dark Demon & No one: likewise, but the other way around, though I've already added DD's statement to the opening post.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Azthor

[DARK DEMON]

I also meant that unlike many drach rituals, angien rituals can actually be countered by using ritual-building skills and combat knowledge rather than luck or stats.

[Azthor]

It may also be worth noting that angiens, by having no access to Freeze, are vulnerable to one creature rituals if not properly supported; assuming one has sufficient personal initiative to beat the tokens' boost when employing a single creature. Similarly, Vitality Drain can affect the angiens before the initiative proper, and a drachorn ritual may have an inherent advantage through Freeze, even if further limited in numbers. While the angiens' defense may prove a challenge without as many Creature Boosts, that is somewhat lessened by the availability of Weaken Defense.

 

It is likewise remarkable that their reliance on either singie or multi targeting can make for a significant disadvantage, depending on the initiative order and whether or not they are able to kill the opponent's creatures in a single hit. More importantly, however, if it will not incur into spoilers, can anyone pinpoint the specific proportions under which an angien's Energy Burn will backfire? Alternatively, knowing whether or not there is a way of absolutely preventing one such a backfire would suffice.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Azthor

[Burns]

With large amounts of power, angiens will suicide when they attack. People who have such amounts usually also have obscene amounts of VE, and just put their slider down a bit to keep their angiens in a healthy spot.

 

When you go for the correct amounts of power for the ritual, every angien in your rit will destroy one opponent, period. That's what they are made for, to burn out a drachorn in one shot, and kill themselves in the process. As it happens, you can put 3 of them in a rit. Then you put your power a little lower to make them fire off 2 shots before becoming useless, and burn out the complete opposing ritual. Anything but the drachorn super rit gets butchered by angiens with the proper level of power.

 

And no, you can't counter them with vitality drain. When angiens and their opponents have the same starting ve, the angien wins, given the right amount of power. You'll have a very rough time to build a rit against angiens as long as those angiens have access to enough power and ve without relying on freeze. A weak player, on the other hand, can't make anything out of angiens. If you're under 300 power and 50k VE,  you might as well use grasans. From 1000 power and 500k VE upwards, you can rain hell on your opponents.

 

The Angiens are designed to help grinders defeat the drachorns from the shop. They also happen to wreck any 'normal' rituals when used properly. Personally, i love to train my newbies on angien rits because i have enough power to set up rituals that always win and never give a loss to my victims, because i burn down 40% of my own vit in the process. And thanks to the magical combo VE, that doesn't even cost me any actual VE.

Because of that ridiculous power, i think angiens should be reduced to 2 as well once those nasty drachorns get reduced to 2.

[No one]

As I stated a few times before, I am against these changes simply because they are meant to limit the power of stronger players and not to help the new players.

 

From the perspective of a new players, as of Burns numbers, having 3 of those creatures in the same ritual gives just a slight advantage (if any) and is just a great achievement (as to obtain those creatures).

And fighting a player with 100 times yours stats witch has 2 drach (instead of 3) and 2 angiens (instead of 3) is similarly futile.

 

So, no, this change is useless, pointless and a waste of time (my time to debate it, Council's time to re-think and approve it and a programmer's time to code / configure it).

[Azthor]

Angiens and drachorns are readily available enough that, it being likely that a new player will acquire a set of them sooner rather than later, limiting their number in a ritual does little to enable a new player to contend with a stronger player. I cannot dispute that point, in and of itself - instead, where we to discuss such specifically, we'd have to speak of tokens, stats, Skill Drain, Vitality Drain and Freeze - but that is a discussion of its own, and to have it in this thread as a throwaway discussion would be facetious and impudent.

 

Nowhere in this thread, or set thereof, however, was it stated that the purpose of this and these was to address such, and, consequently, to discard any of the discussion herein and therein due to it not addressing such, and on that account alone, is pretentiously inadequate.

 

Is obtaining one such a set of creatures truly a great achievement? No, the very notion is preposterous and one needs only look around briefly to see how many of those sets are in circulation. To that end, I'd like to point out a recent quest involving a heavily tokened and aged GG drachorn, which should, on all accounts, be rarer than a Goldrust or a Reindrach. That few would delve into the East for such, in lieu of the over three weeks given, is a statement in and of itself, even as a number of players have done so before merely so as to tour a new player around.

 

As to your last statement, whether or not to join the discussion is your choice, by your own free and tacit consent - I appreciate that you have and would share your views - but that you would complain over doing so of your own choice is frankly obnoxious, not to say outright rude.

 

On a similar note, while wishing not tot waste the Council or Chewett's time is a valid concern, it is also one that holds no weight when were outright encouraged by one of them to move forward with the discussion at an earlier point, not once, but twice. Were either to, directly or indirectly, imply this discussion to be undesirable, then their will should be heeded, but not by your own account alone, devoid of any such capacity.

 

Truthfully, at this point in time, it is not even the purpose of this discussion to address design changes that are found necessary, but rather, to find which changes are found necessary, what are found unnecessary, and what are mutually contested, with a pretension to consensus where possible, by testing and arguing over those points that remain loose.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Azthor

[dst]

@Azthor: I read your last post. I honestly did but the only thing I understood is that you're insulting No one using words none of us (me and No one) know :D

 

However, I spent some time reading your first one and I don't agree with you.

Drach number (and I mean all types) should defo not be reduced. The current limit is 3. How lower should it go? May I remind you that rusts and reins (during Christmas) are crits you can get with credits? And that MD badly needs credits? May I remind you that Chewett's time and work is NOT payed because MD cannot afford that at this point? So take it as a financial reason why the number should not be limited. If you really want a solution, tweak the abilities (this is an idea No one threw at me some days? weeks? ago and I discarded it saying Chew is busy working for A2050 so it would be a waste of time to write about it. Things changed so we might try that idea.)

 

As long as we have drachs, we need some sort of counter for them and so far angiens are the answer. Do we really want to decrease the number? Also I should tell you (since you probably do not know), angiens don't boost themselves like shop drachs do to "normal" drachs (at least with the current..."setup" - I will not go into details because I've already spoiled things). Again, I would temper with the abilities and re-design them or at least change some values there.

 

Archers:I really don't see WHY we should modify them. They are not the ultimate crits. They have weaknesses. They can be defeated quite easily.

[No one]

I am simply amazed.

Just because you can write better inglesse and you can make a 1k words essay it doesn't give you the right to say what you've just said. (whatever all that bs even means as it loses me halfway through some sentences).

A better example for "obnoxious, not to say outright rude" is one who is still growing a brain to think they can give lessons. First of all, one should learn to hold their tong until they gets a broader picture. Then they should listen for those more experienced, learn the context. Then they should take their time to think it over a few times before going to public.

But then again, you are not one of them as you are a natural born genius, so you are allowed to insult me because I attack something that you think would make you more comfortable.

But then again ... someone has to be mistaken, hasn't  it?

About the GG drachorns that you find so common in MD ... all that mambo jumbo is just a foolish and childish assumption on the obvious. Can I ask you when was the last GG recruited ?
Now, let me give you some more info:

The GGs are rare because they cannot be recruited, not for a long time, not now and not anytime soon

The GGs seem common because MD is dieing and the player base is decreasing thus all "rare" creatures that were supposed to be in possession of at most 5-10% of the players ... well, that's how many we are left.

Also, if you say that there are GG available in quests ... yes there are but not all ppl can write essay and thus the quests are untouchable. And I will not write more about other targeted quests.


So, you old genius father of fire, how the heck can you consider yourself above others when you lack the knowledge and perspective ?

Now , some more info for you to chew:

MD is this state, among others, simply because some came with the great ideas to change what already works and thus development time was wasted on rewriting and twicking stuff for few's benefit.

So, yea, even if Chewett said that he is interested in these "ideas", he (sorry Chewett) has something better to do if he wants to save MD. So, yea, I know better then what he (Chewett) said (NOTE: I don't question what he knows).

Truthfully, at this point in time, it is not even the purpose of this discussion to address design changes that are found necessary, but rather, to find which changes are found necessary, what are found unnecessary, and what are  mutually contested, with a pretension to consensus where possible, by testing and arguing over those points that remain loose.

Yes and no, we are not discussing period. You are wasting my time.

------------

@Burns: This post is not to be modified.

[Chewett]

So, yea, even if Chewett said that he is interested in these "ideas", he (sorry Chewett) has something better to do if he wants to save MD. So, yea, I know better then what he (Chewett) said (NOTE: I don't question what he knows).

 

The ideas are interesting, I at no point said I would be using them soon. As for "knowing better what should be done" yeah, you always say you know best for MD, its a point of most interest to Mur and I.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Chewett

[Ackshan Bemunah]

[SIGSEGV]

Edited November 12, 2014 by Ackshan Bemunah

[Ary Endleg]

@Azthor: I read your last post. I honestly did but the only thing I understood is that you're insulting No one using words none of us (me and No one) know :D

 

However, I spent some time reading your first one and I don't agree with you.

Drach number (and I mean all types) should defo not be reduced. The current limit is 3. How lower should it go? May I remind you that rusts and reins (during Christmas) are crits you can get with credits? And that MD badly needs credits? May I remind you that Chewett's time and work is NOT payed because MD cannot afford that at this point? So take it as a financial reason why the number should not be limited. If you really want a solution, tweak the abilities (this is an idea No one threw at me some days? weeks? ago and I discarded it saying Chew is busy working for A2050 so it would be a waste of time to write about it. Things changed so we might try that idea.)

 

As long as we have drachs, we need some sort of counter for them and so far angiens are the answer. Do we really want to decrease the number? Also I should tell you (since you probably do not know), angiens don't boost themselves like shop drachs do to "normal" drachs (at least with the current..."setup" - I will not go into details because I've already spoiled things). Again, I would temper with the abilities and re-design them or at least change some values there.

 

Archers:I really don't see WHY we should modify them. They are not the ultimate crits. They have weaknesses. They can be defeated quite easily.

 

First off, Azkhael didn't come up with it, he just summed it up and split it into coherent separate topic, something that Archivists do. Idea is from Burns. Also all this isn't meant to jump into development even if Chew agrees to all it, A25 has precedence, this needs more input and ideas and is not limited to current situation in which MD found itself at the moment, with low players and finances. This solutions and fixes talked in this and many other related topics MIGHT sit and serve as reference in future when MD will be capable to do this changes. There is no purpose in thinking everything for exact this moment, rather on what could be applied to fix current problems when it would be possible.

 

Another note, as I said earlier there are other topic addressing combat problems, some problems are same, you for example talk about abilities change which we talked in other topic but fall under this same problem of ultimate ritual. This is just one of many topics discussing of possible way to fix that or other problem(s).

 

Archers actually hit quite hard, 3 bps and heretic hit as hard as 2 reins and gg. Sharps and LR archer hit as much or probably even more (same with Imperials) than drachs, difference is they don't have freezes/antifreezes and no target all.

 

 

The GGs seem common because MD is dieing and the player base is decreasing thus all "rare" creatures that were supposed to be in possession of at most 5-10% of the players ... well, that's how many we are left.

 

How does it matter how rare they were supposed to be or how common are they now? Change of rarity as a economic problem in itself, not a mechanics problem. Even if they are still rare, that doesn't make them counter-able.

BTW No one, if you consider this a waste of time then don't post, you decide yourself if you want to waste time or not, what is the point in blaming others for your own decision to continually post? If you want to make your opinion you can just make short post, write that you disagree and short explanation. Azkhael will sum it all up in the end where it will be summed who suggested what, who disagreed and so on. This approach enables pinpointing the more important problem and better fix. We are in beginning stage and you are rebeling as if this is already on production line, chill down man, give youself some slack It's safe to say that this won't move to production line any time soon.

 

Acksham did very good explanation himself above.

 

HE's suggesting the reason nobody did the east quest even though the reward was an aged, token drach is because they're not worth a lot. To support himself, he says that people even go east just to help a new player see it. The assumption seems to be that people care more about combat than about feeding the curiosity of new players.

 

It's other way around, and people actually stated that they went to East doing that quest with main motivator to see the land rather than to earn Drach. Moreover, No one, maybe quests in past were with essays and all that silly stuff, but this last quest with very low attendees was quite simple and easy, you just had to go for a walk in the east with quest-maker and answer in rhyme, something you can just google in 2 seconds. Quest required patience for walking but otherwise was easier than tutorial quests (regardless of dev or player made).

 

Honestly by reading your posts, you (No one) either CONTINUOUSLY misinterpret what was said before or you don't read it fully or you don't comprehend the full picture or you fail to connect what is being addressed in which topic or you simply forget, or all of it. This is from my view of how you raise same questions and make same statements that were already discussed with you elsewhere or before, effectively making all of us repeat ourselves and spinning in circle.

[Burns]

Honestly by reading your posts, you (No one) either CONTINUOUSLY misinterpret what was said before or you don't read it fully or you don't comprehend the full picture or you fail to connect what is being addressed in which topic or you simply forget, or all of it. This is from my view of how you raise same questions and make same statements that were already discussed with you elsewhere or before, effectively making all of us repeat ourselves and spinning in circle.

 

Which might easily come from you guys, specially you and Azthor, making unnecessarily long and complicated posts. I've used english for a very long time now, but you make me go and grab a dictionary like i was in middle school again :P

 

Use simple words and short paragraphs to avoid confusion! :))

[Chewett]

 

Which might easily come from you guys, specially you and Azthor, making unnecessarily long and complicated posts. I've used english for a very long time now, but you make me go and grab a dictionary like i was in middle school again :P

 

Use simple words and short paragraphs to avoid confusion! :))

 

Iv raised this concern already and was told that the paragraphs arent needed. I politely told them I wont be reading massive paragraphs then.

[Ackshan Bemunah]

[SIGSEGV]

Edited November 12, 2014 by Ackshan Bemunah

[Ary Endleg]

You're quite right, I apologize.

[Rophs]

with around 8 power an 70k vit an angien will still do more damage than most creatures I have5

[Azthor]

While I could not change the post's size, given the number of points I must address and want to comment on, I have divided that text according to whom they primarily refer to. Similarly, I have further reduced my paragraphs, and at least tried to adapt my writing, though I may have failed in many regards. If double posting were acceptable, I'd have done so instead, but that was not a possibility.

 

@dst:

 

I would not say I have only insulted No one in that post, but I would say I was offensive not once, but twice, if not more so. I will write about the second part of your post here, and discuss that offensive behavior of mine in No one's section, as a personal address.

 

That first post, as per the disclaimer, does not reflect my own views. If anything, they reflect Burns' and No one's arguments in another thread, with a few additions from the comments in this thread. If they failed to do that, I'd like to be informed, for that would mean I've made a mistake in its writing.

 

While, personally, I have yet to choose one of those arguments, I will comment, as before, on that information you've brought and those points you've raised.

 

Limiting the amount of drachorns in a ritual limits the demand for drachorns. Doing so reduces the influx of credit purchases, as long as a significant number of players doesn't have the premium drachorns and still wishes for them. I believe that to be the case; that is an important concern, and I will add to the opening post later.

 

Tweaking their abilities, if there is a problem at all, is the most likely solution, specially so with Freeze. I do not wish to discuss that option here only because there are other threads where it'd be more appropriate, and a few factors that I, at least, do not know, which I'd need to speak of such.

 

My constant reluctance to discuss certain topics here is because this thread, or rather, the series of threads this one is a part of, were spawned because the original thread had tried to work too many discussions at once.

 

Concerning the angiens, I had added a note to the opening post, which I later edited out, though I now think that to be a mistake, noting that I had no sufficient knowledge of the angiens to discuss Burns' suggestion on my own. I understand the boost to be different, from other threads, but I do not fully understand it, and I also understand that I may be unable to immediately learn such, as it may be a spoiler.

 

If the limit for the drachorns shouldn't be changed, nor should the angiens', I agree, but, exactly due to not fully understanding how they boost each other, I cannot know how limiting their numbers in a ritual would affect the angiens' comparatively to the drachorns, and so I cannot comment on that point.

 

As for the archers, I can see how they might be weak in comparison to angiens or drachorns, maybe so due to Freeze, maybe so due to the scaling of their respective Creature Boosts, which I am not sufficiently aware of. That said, It would be best for Burns to comment on that.

 

@No one:

 

Several parts of my post were offensive, or at least worded offensively. For that, I must excuse myself. While that does not justify their aggressiveness, I will explain what I believe to still exist of reasonable in those lines, first by redacting that post, then by commenting on your own post:

 

Angiens and drachorns, not getting into the reasons behind it, are no longer quite rare. A new player that puts sufficient effort in gaining them shall gain them, and that is an achievement, but I don't believe that to be a great achievement anymore.

 

Improving a new player's ability to compete with a stronger player is something that has to be discussed, but it is not what this particular thread seeks to discuss, or at least not to the exclusion of something else.

 

Unless you believe limiting the number of drachorns and angiens in a ritual would directly reduce a new player's ability to compete against a stronger player, a situation where your point is fully pertinent, claiming the discussion had in this thread serves no purpose because it does not address that point strikes me as something of an unreasonable concern.

 

After all, if this thread had never intended to discuss changes to the balance between new players and veteran, it can only be unfair to blame it it for not discussing such.

 

Back on the topic of rarity, using phantom's quest as an example, I'd like to point out that, even where available, a GG drachorn is not so rare and desired that many players would visit the East for the sake of gaining one. Something players have done out of nicety for other players. That assumes, of course, that a truly rare creature would lure more players than plain gratitude or curiosity.

 

While it may be the case that gratitude or curiosity are a greater allure to MD players than a rare creature, then we'd have to admit combat and collectorship's own allure has become quite low, or hail the players for their altruism. Myself, I find it more likely that it demonstrates there is no particularly large demand for a GG drachorn among those that might otherwise want one.

 

Concerning Chewett and the Council, Chewett has spoken for himself. That you want to speak for him even after that is a very arrogant remark.

 

You claim your time has been wasted, and phrase it as an accusation. But that makes no sense, for it was your own choice to debate it, and it is entirely unreasonable to expect us to refrain from debating because you disagree with our own points, yet do not wish to have to have to defend your own views. To have things be as you want them to in that regard is impossible here, and, most of all, it is impossible anywhere. 

 

As a general statement, it is the purpose of this thread, and series of threads, to create a point of reference for discussing combat changes in the future. Such is done by dispelling myths surrounding elements of the combat system, as has been done, where that is not a spoiler, and finding what prospective changes are disputed and which are generally agreed upon, if any.

 

If you feel I was still offensive there - whether in stating that wanting to speak for another, even when that person disagrees, is unnecessarily arrogant, or in noting that wanting others to refrain from engaging in a discussion so that you won't have to defend your own views is equally unreasonable - I am sorry, but now, at least, I do not feel I could phrase these two in any other way, for that is the exact expression of my views.

 

To address your latest post:

 

(...) Instead of immediately replying, I'd like to ask you to read it over yourself. If you feel that post is fine as it is, then I will reply.

 

@Chewett:

 

I had not been asked to further reduce the length of my paragraphs until now, and I do not recall any comment to that effect from you, concerning my own posts. While that may have been aimed at another player, I have, nevertheless, attempted to break the paragraphs down into smaller sections.

 

@Ackshan Bemunah:

 

Most of your post is spot on, including the offensive nature of one of my lines, though there are a few things you may have missed that I've now addressed in No one's section.

 

@Ary Endleg:

 

You had addressed a significant part of what I have addressed above, specially concerning my intention with these threads. For that, I thank you, though I made my share of mistakes.

 

@Burns:

 

My english is largely conditioned by those contexts I learnt it and would use a foreign language in, so that modifying it does not come very naturally to me, but you are right in that I should strive to be able to adapt it according to the context of a conversation. I have attempted to do so to some extent in this post, but, at least for now, it is not much of a successful attempt.

 

@Rophs:

 

I understand that angiens are powerful, and that is fully intended, but it is hard for someone to make something out of that comment without knowing what creatures you are comparing it to.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Azthor

[Rophs]

The creatures I am comparing them to are Imperial Aramors and BPs upgraded as much as possible at MP4. Angiens are still very strong at a lower level of combat where less game theory is applied to ritual building.

[dst]

Lower levels are not meant to be proficient fighters. So the argument doesn't stand from that point of view.

[Rophs]

So the fighting system should not be balanced at mp4?

[dst]

Define balanced.