New Role Idea - Warrant Officer

[Grido]

Role suggestion;

 

 

 

Decreeing that anyone found unequivocally to have killed someone, or via contracting Eon*(or any other contract killers that may be announced in future) been directly associated with said death, will be sentenced for a period of 2 weeks. Any occasion an individual is found breaching said sentence within that period will extend it by an additional day for each day or partial day, in addition to the days breached not counting towards completion of their sentence.

 

 

As a hopping metallic mammal once said "The only sin is getting caught".

If you wish to kill another you should either ensure you have greater intention for doing so from now on, or make sure you don't get caught. Think of it as cause and effect, there is now an consequence to your actions.

 

This would not be a Game Rule (cannot be contravened). This would be a Realm-Wide Law governed by the individual with certain abilities at their disposal.

 

"Unequivocal Proof" shall be determined between crowned land leaders and judges. As previously stated this is not a game rule, so none of those entities are under any obligation to weigh up proof of guilt - an individual would have to convince them of the persons guilt, as well as to help them pursue it. There is a statute of limitations on pursuing guilt of 6 months, that means that no action will be taken on an individual if that period has passed before it reaches the person in this role. A minimum of 3 determinates will be required for action to be taken on guilt.

 

 

*Please note, that so long as a killer is being contracted in his killing, he would be exempt from sentencing, the one who hired him would face the term instead. If there is an occasion where it is proven he has acted on his own behalf to kill, said exemption would be rescinded for that particular incidence.

 

First; Thoughts?

Second; If implemented, type of sentencing would need to be determined, it's been suggested it should be more restrictive than jail.

Third; Anybody who feels they would be suitable for such a role should it come to be?

Edited November 16, 2014 by Grido

[Eon]

It would make contract killing a useless role, the unequivocal proof is right in the trade logs.

[Ivorak]

It would make contract killing a useless role, the unequivocal proof is right in the trade logs.

 

Could not one arrange for deferred payment? Or obfuscate payment by indirection via a series of underlings?

 

Edit: Also, why would contract killers be exempt from sentencing?

Edited November 16, 2014 by Ivorak

[Eon]

It takes two to use the contract. I do the fighting, the buyer holds the contract and activates it when it's ready. There is no hiding who the buyer of the contract is.

[Grido]

Exempt because the idea is to create a new role, not to punish another for having a role already in existence, it's not his fault people want to kill others, he just facilitates.

 

Potentially the contract could be hidden from the logs?

[Ungod]

I dont know how well this would work...I dont especially like it, but then again, I have never been killed, nor have I hired an assasin. My ideas were to make the killer descend deeper into darkness, giving a little bit more substance to the role, with things such as killer not being able to speak in chat with the exception of some scenes, the possibility of many people to ”grab” an assasin, just like you do with a fugitive, and send to jail/other nasty stuff, eliminate the grey traces, eliminate the avatar or change it randomly every week etc etc

I admit that the idea of a warrant officer makes (a lot) of sense, but I dont really like it. 

 

P.S. I am really curious to see who would answer your nr 3 question.

[DARK DEMON]

Not sure who exactly is suitable but whoever ends up with Chew's avatar is technically suitable! :))

Edited November 16, 2014 by DARK DEMON

[Eara Meraia]

let us imagine that the logs are hidden (which would be the only fair variant, considering eons role).

 

How are you going to prove that somebody killed somebody? Unless the killer was so silly to kill the person tete-a-tete (while you were there and took a screenshot and you have the evidence that you were not the killer). If multiple people with killing powers are present in the scene you basically cannot prove it (or I just don't see how).  You can ask people to show the screenshots of the cooldown periods of their killing items, but even those can be faked with some photoshop skill.

 

Lets imagine hypothetically somebody killed person XX. Everyone would point to YY saying - he did it, he hates him, we have seen it on forum, he doesn't like XXs actions, quests etc., and YY was online at the same time and the same place (let us say other people, killing item holders would be there too). Would it be evidence enough to put YY into jail? For me it is not, because there still could be somebody who hates person XX too, but doesnt say it loud or the third person who wasnt even there who hired a "neutral" killer to kill XX for whatever reason.

 

 

The way I see it - This indeed can prevent obvious and blatant killing from happening but it will NOT require too much effort from the killer to overcome it. More likely what we get is more forum or private ranting of the sort "He did it!" "No, I didn't" "Yes you did!" "No I didn't"...

Edited November 16, 2014 by Eara Meraia

[DARK DEMON]

On a serious note, yes, I definitely agree with what Eara said.

 

 

I think there must be more work done from the killer's side to ensure a successful kill. Currently it mostly requires gold from the person wanting to kill, and no creativity at all to hide the crime (like how I got killed a while back in front of 10+ people with a killer contract).

 

Something like hiding chat (which would make another use for acoustic remains for someone who'd like to be a detective), or using teleport spells to ensure nobody can reach the log room, etc, would just be some things a killer/killer's partner could do to 'hide' proof. But I strongly disagree with removing the proof altogether.

Edited November 16, 2014 by DARK DEMON

[Curiose]

Perhaps there could be "evidence"strewn  about.

That, and people will talk for the right price.

 

There is such a thing as witnesses.

 

Perhaps lawyer up for some immunity if someone involved wants to spill the beans.

[Grido]

The evidence for proof would be variable, can come from anywhere as an individual you would have to use whatever you were able to to convince those 3 people that it was the person you think it was. Motive and opportunity have been enough in the past to convict someone, you don't always need physical evidence.

 

There wouldn't need to be any public or private ranting back and forth between two people each accusing the other, because it'd be up to someone to convince 3 of the determinates, rather than the community.

[Ivorak]

I like the general concept, but if I was, say, the King of ______, I might refuse to ratify this law, and perhaps even offer asylum to assassins in exchange for their future services. It's therefore important that a treaty precedes the implementation of such a role.

[Assira the Black]

I think the role could work out if planned out and if changes were made later to help balance it better. It makes sense that such a role would exist in MD to help bring balance. But to also make the roles of killing enter more of the mysterious/shadows. An act that is not as openly done but as mentioned above, takes creativity.

 

It just might add another element or complexity to MD.

 

In rl there has always been a counter to (social) crimes (consider killing in game more social and not an actual md game crime). It just take changes to a few things to make it a little more difficult to figure out who the killer is (like with Eon's Contracts that have to state the contractors name).

 

As for who the role would suit... I am not sure.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Hiria

[Ary Endleg]

The roles are being given out just like that? Without player building it out in advance?

 

I don't see the purpose in this. I see it as excuse so somebody could get a nice role tag and power instantly.

[DARK DEMON]

The roles are being given out just like that? Without player building it out in advance?

 

I don't see the purpose in this. I see it as excuse so somebody could get a nice role tag and power instantly.

 

Oh yes, this is a major thing, and it would be incredibly ironic if it actually happens (considering all the fuss about "playing your role before you get it") and the quote: "You only get what you already have".

Edited November 16, 2014 by DARK DEMON

[No one]

[spoiler]

Role suggestion;

 

 

 

Decreeing that anyone found unequivocally to have killed someone, or via contracting Eon*(or any other contract killers that may be announced in future) been directly associated with said death, will be sentenced for a period of 2 weeks. Any occasion an individual is found breaching said sentence within that period will extend it by an additional day for each day or partial day, in addition to the days breached not counting towards completion of their sentence.

 

 

As a hopping metallic mammal once said "The only sin is getting caught".

If you wish to kill another you should either ensure you have greater intention for doing so from now on, or make sure you don't get caught. Think of it as cause and effect, there is now an consequence to your actions.

 

This would not be a Game Rule (cannot be contravened). This would be a Realm-Wide Law governed by the individual with certain abilities at their disposal.

 

"Unequivocal Proof" shall be determined between crowned land leaders and judges. As previously stated this is not a game rule, so none of those entities are under any obligation to weigh up proof of guilt - an individual would have to convince them of the persons guilt, as well as to help them pursue it. There is a statute of limitations on pursuing guilt of 6 months, that means that no action will be taken on an individual if that period has passed before it reaches the person in this role. A minimum of 3 determinates will be required for action to be taken on guilt.

 

 

*Please note, that so long as a killer is being contracted in his killing, he would be exempt from sentencing, the one who hired him would face the term instead. If there is an occasion where it is proven he has acted on his own behalf to kill, said exemption would be rescinded for that particular incidence.

 

First; Thoughts?

Second; If implemented, type of sentencing would need to be determined, it's been suggested it should be more restrictive than jail.

Third; Anybody who feels they would be suitable for such a role should it come to be?

[/spoiler]

 

:) this is so cute.

 

I'd like to see this implemented with already-in-game-and-already-implemented-features.

 

Anyway, I see already a few issues with this proposal :

 - there is already a "court" that can be used, meaning that you want to get in the way of justice or you think you are better then it

 - you want to restrict a player more then being in jail --- do you mean "ban" ? ironically or not but wasn't the "ban" banned ?

 - only the use of kill is supposed to be punished, meaning that other actions are not pursuit for any punishment (like attack lock, move lock, other army ...)

 

and that's from the top of my head.

 

-------------

I wonder why Gridy even posted this.

Edited November 16, 2014 by No one

[Grido]

@Ary, DD,

Save your objections to it being given out to someone without effort being put in until it actually is given out.

The person would have to be appropriate for the role, but it would be a role that requires tools for it to work, rather than something that is possible to be acted out prior. The idea stemmed from something that I could do, but after talking with others and fleshing it out realised it would not be appropriate for me to perform this role, and so I offer a framework up to someone else.

 

 

@No one,

The court is for people who break the game rules or similar idea. Killing is perfectly allowed within the limits of the rules.

Not restrict as in ban, no. More restrictive in that it affects the person differently and differentiates from jail.

Don't know what your point is with the third bit, yes solely to counter killings, not any other sort of spell action.

[Chewett]

The roles are being given out just like that? Without player building it out in advance?
 
I don't see the purpose in this. I see it as excuse so somebody could get a nice role tag and power instantly.

Some roles have to be given when they are created, others need to be worked on.

The BHC leader cannot have "worked" making a BHC before it was implemented, therefore it was given to someone who had done a lot related to BHC (fighting).

If this role was to be implemented, I would be interested to see why the candidate feels themselves worthy.

[Rophs]

Let's imagine a scenario where dst wants to hire Eon to kill Rophs with Sham as the mule

 

dst doesn't want to go to jail, so she creates a trade or series of trades with Shem where Shem ends up with a few more silvers than he should. They could even post it in the public trade logs. Of course they could go a bit further and maybe have somebody rig them a quest. Then they ask Shem to act as a mule for the killing and be the one who holds the contract. Shem accepts because he is mostly inactive and won't really care about the penalties. Shem gives Eon the money, and then obfuscated kill!

 

It takes a bit of creativity, and requires you to be a bit more like the mafia :D

[Assira the Black]

There are different ways to view such a role (and character types fit to fill them)

 

1)Someone Wise and fair

2) Strong sense of Justice

3)Vengeance/revenge

 

These of course are not the only ways a role/character can go, just the first few types that come to mind.

 

In most stories it is someone with a strong sense of Justice that hunts down killers to protect the people. Given the md twist to things Vengeance or revenge... the more vigilante approach I would find to be more interesting.

 

My main point of this is that whom ever decides to step up for the role... does not necessarily have to fall under the typical archetypes of such a role.

[No one]

[spoiler]

 

 - only the use of kill is supposed to be punished, meaning that other actions are not pursuit for any punishment (like attack lock, move lock, other army ...)

 

 

 

@No one,

The court is for people who break the game rules or similar idea. Killing is perfectly allowed within the limits of the rules.

Not restrict as in ban, no. More restrictive in that it affects the person differently and differentiates from jail.

Don't know what your point is with the third bit, yes solely to counter killings, not any other sort of spell action.

[spoiler]

3rd point rephrased : Why not punish those that use move lock ? Why not use those that use "other army" ? or Attack lock ?

[Aeoshattr]

Derailed topic.

 

To get back to it, I think Grido's idea is great. Why? I believe a few weeks ago we had an argument about countering social issues with social means and this gives people the power to do so.

 

I see NoOne's point about otherarmy - however, the way I think of the whole role (to relate it to "social issues") is something like this: in MD, the use of spells is liberally permitted. Use them as you see fit. However, I can't think of a single example of a society where killing (let's say murder, not execution) isn't condemned by society. Thus the act of murdering someone would be condemnable and I like the idea of someone having the responsibility of bringing murderers (or rather those that asked/planned murders, in the context of MD) to justice.

 

I think it adds a nice element of complexity to killing, which so far really is "I'll give you 1 gold to knife someone" (put in rather non-diplomatic terms). I think it's perfectly reasonable to make killing people more difficult and add repercussions for it. Revival on its own isn't easy - you can't just say "I'll pay you one gold to revive me". I can give Mya's revival as an example (yes, I am well aware that LR has a revival item and as a former citizen I voted that we use it): we were asked to gather resources on her behalf, we tried to get some activity going with the heat jar swapping, etc. It was nowhere near as quick and easy as killing her.

 

To the killers: there are a myriad of ways in which you can avoid being caught, and I am convinced you can manage it. It just needs a bit of creativity and a tad more effort than before.

 

I am unsure how to implement the feature, and I agree on one thing: I don't think the role should just be slapped on someone. I suggest we either have nominations and a vote, for someone that the community believes is suitable for the role (with solid arguments, not just "I nominate X because it's convenient for me". Or we could have a trial period: someone sets cases that candidates have to solve. Or both.

 

There are ways in which we can make this work and I believe it would be a great social addition to MD. I would ask that we don't bicker over things that are off topic. Sure, some spells have permanent effects. Some rituals have permanent effects too (I'm pretty sure you can cause stat damage with regular rituals too, not just otherarmy). Why wouldn't we punish people leaving players with negative VP of the order of millions? My point is, we can discuss this in another topic. 

This is about adding complexity and stirring social interaction throughout MD. I'd like to see people work towards this, or even against it, but argument it and stay on topic.

 

Hope that isn't considered backseat modding or whatnot and I hope I managed to get my point across.

[Burns]

Removed some spam and made a split for mechanical implications of death http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15904-consequences-and-mechanics-of-death-plus-possible-adjustments

[Eon]

I think it adds a nice element of complexity to killing, which so far really is "I'll give you 1 gold to knife someone" (put in rather non-diplomatic terms).

 

I don't want people thinking I charge this price. I charge around 4 gold, since I feel that amount isn't too hard to make if you really want a person dead, and it isn't so cheap people are getting killed left and right just for the hell of it. I get contacted at least once a month for my contract and probably use it twice a year.

[No one]

While pondering Eon's comment, consider that there are more players with resurrect items, then those with kill items,  that would help for far less ... if not for "free" if their criteria are met.

So, all is needed is indeed some action from the dead. (and no, complaining is not that action)

For example, see Eara's answer.