Of leashes and slaves

[dst]

Shameless copy paste from another location so please bare with me and read the long post (filled with personal opinions as well):

 

This concept is quite old in MD. The first “Slave auction” was in 2009. Purpose? Only plain and simple fun. In time this changed. Now the slave auction is a way for each player to get their hands on a quite nice usable item (the leash) as well as some money in the happiest of cases. Cause let’s be honest: this slave auctions are rigged. Rarely the masters pay the slaves (sometimes the slave pays the master so that player has coins to spare) It’s…a freebie event.

 

So in the light of the above, I would CANCEL this event. But since leashes are VERY useful, I would put up a different way to gain a leash. Because the slave is the actual beneficiary of the whole deal (to have a way to be summoned wherever that person wants as long as there is another player willing to do it).

I would make a quest out of it. It would be something like this:have a decent list of tasks (20-30 which is not hard to design – I’ll explain in the following paragraphs) out of which a number would be randomly chosen. Each year the number would increase. Meaning that for example if the first year you get 8 tasks, the next year you’ll get 12 (because it’s your “second” leash). Or not really the next year but the next time you try to get your leash. Btw: numbers are totally random, they can be adjusted.Then the player must complete all tasks in order to get the leash.

You’d also get a Slave Master (new role which can be held by multiple people so if one leaves we don’t get stuck). Their role would be to validate the completion of the tasks. This is so that no coding is required (even for the tasks, there is no actual need for something to be coded, yes it would be wonderful if we’d have coding but it’s defo not a showstopper). Once all tasks are validated the “Slave” gets a leash*.

 

Examples of tasks:

• gather 100 wood
• gather 200 water
• raise 40 bushes
• give <insert crit type here> X amount of heat and then donate it
• give <insert player X> Y amount of VE
• give <insert player X> Z amount of heat

*Now that I am thinking better, maybe “slave” is not the correct term. And leash could be changed to something else like “one way transportation device”. Anyway, terms can be changed quite easily. The important fact is that this should not be a freebie. Why? Cause of players like fang (I will not comment on his behavior because I don’t like brown smelly things).

 

So yeah, I am really not in favor of the current system. Waay to permissive. And way to easy to obtain something like a leash when for other things you have to work for months. Also, it would be a goal in MD. Everyone would be able to get one provided they work hard enough and nobody would miss it just because they were not around during the auction. Not to mention that certain people (fang for example) would actually have to WORK instead of begging.

Edited September 15, 2015 by dst

[Ivorak]

I may be dense, but I'm afraid I don't follow the logic. 

 

This concept is quite old in MD. The first “Slave auction” was in 2009. Purpose? Only plain and simple fun. In time this changed. Now the slave auction is a way for each player to get their hands on a quite nice usable item (the leash) as well as some money in the happiest of cases. Cause let’s be honest: this slave auctions are rigged. Rarely the masters pay the slaves (sometimes the slave pays the master so that player has coins to spare) It’s…a freebie event.

 

I'm reading your statements in this manner:

 

1) Slaves don't get paid. Slaves may even end up paying their master.

2) Slaves shouldn't get a leash because it's beneficial to the slave.

 

I must be missing something, because I don't see how anyone would volunteer to be auctioned off otherwise. They put up with a few months of inconvenience and then receive a leash that can be passed to a friend for use as a convenient "teleport" (that is what leashes do, right?). In the absence of such a trade we would need some way to forcibly compel a player to be a slave and that's not in the spirit of MD (and, moreover, would likely simply result in the loss of a player).

[dst]

Yes, you got it all backwards.

 

I was saying that only slaves benefit from this event. So instead of being auctioned, let players work (do slave work) if they want a leash.

[Change]

Not to mention that certain people (fang for example) would actually have to WORK instead of begging.

 

I'm confused. Did Fang get a leash? I thought he didn't because no one bid on him.

 

But while I see what you're saying, I like the current system where there's a certain period where the slave's leash is not under their control (usually 3 months) in return for freedom to use the leash how they want 9 months after that. Yes, two players can cooperate so that the slave gets what master they want, though this doesn't always work out.

 

As for removing the slave auction and the whole slave thing in general, I'm not exactly for that. For some, including me, the slave auction concept is fun. I do believe you should be able to get a leash somehow when it's not the auction, but that's a different topic.

 

Perhaps make it so the slaves have to 'prove' their slavehood before the auctioneer deems them fit for auction? So it'd be like your idea, but also keeping the auction. After all, the auctioneer wouldn't want to sell low-quality slaves or their reputation would be ruined!

[Jubaris]

Dst, people wanted to make an event revolving around buying slaves, leashes were made to support that, but in here you partly focus on the usefulness of the leash powers and dismiss the slaves concept. (the one-way transportation devices can be a separate subject unrelated to the existence of slavery if you want, rather than making them, as-they-are-now, more important than the reason why they were made, if they are that important, then they can have a life of their own, they don't need to have fate bounded to that of slavery)

 

I agree that the (slave) leash must be earned, but I would go in a bit different way.

For instance, I would like a 'recipe' for that leash of magical nature, similar to what you suggested, but not in requirements-increasing behavior, because I don't understand why would that happen other than some practical results you wish to see achieved on the field - for me it has to feel natural.

 

- A player should be able to make his own leash (requirements: bla bla bla, 4000 heat, drop of blood, bla bla bla, some special kind of metal), and then he could sell it to anyone in any way he/she wishes. Requirements should be nasty.

- Player who has a slave should be able to have a bigger variety of effects of enforcing and control upon the slave. (random suggestio - pulling all the chat entries made by player in the last X hours, like hearthepoor spell? Thus tracing what your slave was doing, was he an obedient slave, etc.)

 

There also should be a method to enforce someone to have a leash, but it needs to be very hard to perform. (because what would be the point of having leashes, if you can just 'sell your services'? Aspect of non-consensual must be present for it to make sense)

 

Because of them being able to be sold individually, someone might ask 'what of the slave auctions'?

Slave auctions would offer that 'free' way of selling your leash to someone like it was so far, but it would also be a wild card because your control of the deal was minimal.

 

All that leash nature background reminded me of 'damane' from Wheel of time, magic (sort of speak) users enslaved by a certain type of leashes.

[Rophs]

The leash is way too powerful imo. With the general trimming of fast travel I wouldn't be surprised to see leashes being fixed

[Syrian]

the general trimming of fast travel seems to be backwards with the 1k ap shoes still been around and the code being rather widespread, those are also a form of fast travel and this should be addressed too

[Rophs]

the general trimming of fast travel seems to be backwards with the 1k ap shoes still been around and the code being rather widespread, those are also a form of fast travel and this should be addressed too

the 1k ap shoes still make long distance travel quite clicky and you won't be getting very far into the east that way, running out before the statue hall is quite likely even with 30+ cartography. with a leash you can pass a friend with east loyalty your leash and be inside the throne room for free

Edited September 17, 2015 by Rophs

[Aeoshattr]

the 1k ap shoes still make long distance travel quite clicky and you won't be getting very far into the east that way, running out before the statue hall is quite likely even with 30+ cartography. with a leash you can pass a friend with east loyalty your leash and be inside the throne room for free

He does have a point IMO. For me, the most irritating thing about travelling really is clicking (no, I'm not lazy _{i'm extremely lazy}).

 

IMO, I don't think that the boots are overpowered - they are in very, very fixed locations, so they give a sharp range as to just how far you can go; furthermore, you still need to click multiple times to move around and even more, they will not allow you access to normally restricted scenes. I'd say they're just a convenience for now and genuinely don't think they're game-breaking (with the exception of newbies getting stuck in NC or GG.)

The only way I would change this would be to only make these clickables visible to players with say... more than 120 active days. By then, they will actually mean something when they get access to them, rather than take them for granted from day 1.

 

As for the leashes... I'm sort of in-between. Technically speaking, it depends on the leash owner whether the slave is the actual beneficiary or whether the owner is; to be blunt, nobody is to blame that some people wuss out and are all nice to their slaves, show them places and give them things instead of using them. The slave potentially gives up quite a bunch of freedom, without the ability of knowing whether they will have a nice owner or not, for a large period of time - there were discussions of repercussions for slaves that are not available in-game during that period. Surely the slave isn't fully the beneficiary then. 

 

However, the idea of working for a leash also sounds somewhat decent. I've no clue how it's better and it's not my place to decide. I'm just pointing out stuff I noticed in this topic.

[Syrian]

>running out before the statue hall is quite likely even with 30+ cartography

 

you can reach to the kitchen with 1k ap, so running out before the statue hall isnt all that likely unless the timer hits 0

Edited September 17, 2015 by Syrian

[Rophs]

Perhaps have the leash pull the victim one scene closer to the leashholder on a 5 minute cooldown. You can still show off hidden locations but you aren't able to just teleport all willy nilly

[Chewett]

Perhaps have the leash pull the victim one scene closer to the leashholder on a 5 minute cooldown. You can still show off hidden locations but you aren't able to just teleport all willy nilly

 

We have no way of knowing precisely how things link together nicely currently.

[No one]

This topic (initial post) was about the leashes being given too easily and having no relation to any relation to the RL concept of a "slave".

Please add your comment on that subject.

 

@Ivorak:

1) Yes, ppl can pay for their own leashes or have "trade" agreements with the future "master" . Also being a slave means that you have to work for your master (a.k.a. a method of payment).

2) The leashes should be given to the slaves IF they deserve / work for it (see point 1).

 

Yes, the leashes are a good concept because it is the matter of keeping the inflation under control by getting coins out.

 

From my point of view the leashes should be paid constantly for the duration of their existence. There should be some automatic batches of work available each month so that a player can "redeem" his "free slave certificate" to be allowed to keep the leash.

If the initial coins go from master to slave (and TK), this new payment can be used for other benefits.

 

[spoiler]

 

I may be dense, but I'm afraid I don't follow the logic. 

 

 

I'm reading your statements in this manner:

 

1) Slaves don't get paid. Slaves may even end up paying their master.

2) Slaves shouldn't get a leash because it's beneficial to the slave.

 

I must be missing something, because I don't see how anyone would volunteer to be auctioned off otherwise. They put up with a few months of inconvenience and then receive a leash that can be passed to a friend for use as a convenient "teleport" (that is what leashes do, right?). In the absence of such a trade we would need some way to forcibly compel a player to be a slave and that's not in the spirit of MD (and, moreover, would likely simply result in the loss of a player).

[/spoiler]

 

 

 

Please stay on topic

[spoiler]

Of topic, going close to a spoiler.

 

the 1k ap shoes still make long distance travel quite clicky and you won't be getting very far into the east that way, running out before the statue hall is quite likely even with 30+ cartography. with a leash you can pass a friend with east loyalty your leash and be inside the throne room for free

[/spoiler]

Edited September 18, 2015 by No one

[Ary Endleg]

I agree. It's no secret that some aren't in it to be slaves, rather they are in it to be partners.

 

Dst, people wanted to make an event revolving around buying slaves, leashes were made to support that, but in here you partly focus on the usefulness of the leash powers and dismiss the slaves concept.

 

When people make deals among each others to buy each others' leashes for a purpose of helping each other travel around rather than boss around; then you have a problem, the one which this topic brings up. Some auctions are staged just so one could acquire leash and has nothing to do with being slave, bossed around, pranked all the time, (insert inconvenience here).... It simply has no rp base or relation, only purpose is technical, the power of item.

 

That's why something should be done to put back "slave" into "slavery".

[Jubaris]

... Which is what I was saying... :rolleyes: I think you misquoted the sentence you wish to reply on. I assume it was the individual acquirement of one's leash.

That's why one should 'earn' the leash through a effort-demanding process, like Dst originally suggested, and that's why leash's abilities should be updated as is the general consensus (I think).

 

The rest is nothing new and already said in this topic several times by various people in their own interpretation.

[Mallos]

Although I understand the point of the proposition I don't quite agree on the practicality of it. Slaves don't really work to become slaves, they are captured or sold into slavery. I think it makes more sense for a once a year roundup of slaves and auctioning rather than a year-round quest to go get your leash whenever you want it.

 

Sure there is the problem of slaves benefiting more so than being actual slaves (specially when you add in that you can get purchased by a specific person you want to have your leash, which happens often), but I don't see how this would fix that. Once you get your leash, would it then be yours to give to anyone? Sure the slave then had to work and thus didn't benefit as much but if they aren't then sold to a random person and can pass the leash to whoever they please, why did they need to work in the first place? Wasn't it because the leash could be used too freely for the slaves intent, and if they pass it to who they want, the problem persists right? Only this way getting your leash has become harder (but more freely available).

 

I don't agree with making the leash harder to obtain as people might be inclined to not participate then. I for one don't do quests much, I know others who are the same. And I know of people who refuse to be sold as a slave and don't participate in the auction because of that. We're all people trying to have fun in this game and adding in the extra work seems sorta cruel when we have a working system as is.

 

So as far as the few problems I see with leashes, the first one being slaves benefiting too much for becoming slaves, and another being slaves not really having to work for their master (no set jobs/guidelines, which I don't think there should be, it should be up to the master to provide work) which is hardly touched upon here, it really only half fixes the first problem and imposes work upon the slave which seems to null the necessity of having to fix the second problem, which in all rights should be addressed, as to continue to keep the leash a "slave" leash.

 

This topic (initial post) was about the leashes being given too easily and having no relation to any relation to the RL concept of a "slave".

 

That being said, regardless of what this topic is about the slave leash and auction does seem to be intended to be in line with what a RL slave is and we should either continue to keep that concept or throw it out entirely for a new one.

[Rophs]

potential leash fix:

when a leash owner uses the leash while in the same location as the slave they hook it to the slave's collar. whenever the leash owner moves they must spend double the action points and will drag the slave along with them. using the leash again will unhook it from the salve's collar

using the leash while at a different location from the slave would have no effect

[No one]

@Rophs: Cute addon to the leashes. But then ... the slave does have a different set of loyalties and land access.

Try to see if a "hook" would be better :

 - hook yourself to someone

      * and if you have AP & access, then you will follow.

      * or : if the person you hooked on to allows / permits, you will follow as described above ; the hooked-on person could choose to let you stand behind (you know for the nature calls) then he can come back and resume

 

Could be quite expensive in coding time.

[Rophs]

the slave does have a different set of loyalties and land access.

Even if the slave would save ap by willfully walking somewhere due to landloyalty or cartography the leash holder is forcefully dragging their slave. The slave's land loyalty / available scenes should not affect the leash holder's ap costs.

[No one]

It has spilled abuse all over it.

 

If you want to have smth like : the follow to be considered a leash use ... then it would be possible as the considerations for that are different while dragging someone.

There is still to consider the "no jump" areas.

Edited November 5, 2015 by No one

[DARK DEMON]

To me the most obvious solution seems to be to just give the leash some drawbacks (to the slave) rather than cancelling the event. Fix the actual problem (i.e leash, not the event).

 

1) When the master uses the leash, the slave loses all AP and gets movelock cast on him after being dragged to the scene where the master is. This has an interesting side effect and goes both ways: a resentful slave is forced to listen to the master, a best-friends-with-master slave is stuck with no AP.

2) Add a cooldown to the leash (60 minutes maybe?)

 

Let the slave 'prove how good he his' BEFORE the slave auction, not after it. In other words: the guy has to do a quest (involving tasks like dst mentioned) to be eligible to be sold at the slave auction. If such a quest will be made, then it should be automatic and keep track of the player's exact actions, rather than having a person like Slave Master validate it (so that friends don't give him the required resources, etc). 

Edited November 5, 2015 by DARK DEMON

[Aeoshattr]

To me the most obvious solution seems to be to just give the leash some drawbacks (to the slave) rather than cancelling the event. Fix the actual problem (i.e leash, not the event).

 

1) When the master uses the leash, the slave loses all AP and gets movelock cast on him after being dragged to the scene where the master is. This has an interesting side effect and goes both ways: a resentful slave is forced to listen to the master, a best-friends-with-master slave is stuck with no AP.

2) Add a cooldown to the leash (60 minutes maybe?)

 

Let the slave 'prove how good he his' BEFORE the slave auction, not after it. In other words: the guy has to do a quest (involving tasks like dst mentioned) to be eligible to be sold at the slave auction. If such a quest will be made, then it should be automatic and keep track of the player's exact actions, rather than having a person like Slave Master validate it (so that friends don't give him the required resources, etc). 

The one major issue I see with this is...

Would you subject yourself to 1-3 months of this kind of thing for most likely 10-15 SC? I know I wouldn't. I think it's too harsh and is likely to kill the event.

[Ivorak]

 

Let the slave 'prove how good he his' BEFORE the slave auction, not after it. In other words: the guy has to do a quest (involving tasks like dst mentioned) to be eligible to be sold at the slave auction. If such a quest will be made, then it should be automatic and keep track of the player's exact actions, rather than having a person like Slave Master validate it (so that friends don't give him the required resources, etc). 

 

Disagree with this part, but I like the first part (negative effects for the slave). Could be lower AP, movelock, even skill damage. If 10-15 silver coins doesn't make this a worthwhile use of your time (as Aeoshattr suggests), then set a higher reserve bid or don't join the auction. If this results in fewer slaves, fine by me.

[Aethon]

I've tried biting my tongue and holding my opinions on the whole event and will continue to do so (for now...). Though the one idea I would like to see implemented is;

 

If the auction is to remain a "slave" auction, then <x> leashes should be created randomly out of the pool of active players. This way the leash may truly be a "slave" item. To help balance this though, possible slaves would be able to buy their own freedom for either a) a set price, b) winning bid's price + <x%> or c) by bidding like everyone else.

 

As to the other ideas and comments...I'll just keep watching for now.

[DARK DEMON]

To build upon my earlier point, divide the quest into stages and create a minimum bid based on how many stages have been completed?

 

A random example:

 

Collect X water, Y herbs, Z branches is stage 1 --- complete this for a minimum bid of 10 silver

Collect 2X water, 2Y herbs, 2Z branches is stage 2 --- complete this for a minimum bid of 20 silver

and so on.

 

But yeah, this kind of looks too demotivating (both for the slave as well as the buyer, who may not want to pay much). Scratch this part then lol.

 

Edit

but then again, the real question is: to what extent is a wanna-be slave willing to work to get his leash? 

Edited November 6, 2015 by DARK DEMON