maggot Posted October 3, 2008 Report Share Posted October 3, 2008 There is a limit on words, but I do not think it is that constraining when I look at the longest update. You can still include details which make the story seem less...like a hack job. After all, it is them who made the "substance" written about. It is not so much as you add more writing, but you make their actions and dialogue seem characteristic of their unique personality. I wonder that none of the rpcs in the log are disappointed by how they are portrayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Marquis Posted October 4, 2008 Report Share Posted October 4, 2008 Perhaps there may be a usable solution... Perhaps a slightly expanded version of the AL here on the forums where much more length can be added? I will discuss the idea with Renavoid...as I have another thought to make that method even more plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggot Posted October 4, 2008 Report Share Posted October 4, 2008 Still don't think you need more length to write the Adventure Log well (if you even read my previous post). But guess it is not so bad an idea, would be interesting to see what the writers could do with more length.. if they would improve or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren Posted October 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 delete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggot Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 Not entirely sure you are getting what I'm saying.. Don't care if events are shortened, if too much happens to log. Don't care if logs have some falsified details, as long as they go along with what the characters would do. Don't know where I said I wanted pure fantasy.. because that's not what I want. Don't mind if "Kiddies" is what "Brightlings" call Necrovion members.. but I do not ever see anybody being called a "Brightling" in the Adventure Log. And when you use "Kiddies," it's not in dialogue or attributed to anyone, just plain narration. Is the narrator a Brightling? If so, make it clear. Thought narrators were the Archivists, though...which are supposed to be objective, am I wrong? Right now, the Adventure Log seems to me biased as it always seemed to me. For all you seem to observe your subjects, hardly seems to affect in the Adventure Log. I observe people too, that is actually all I do in the game because I am waiting for updates to see if I want to spend further effort and time on it. Would give examples of how your characters contradict the ones I observe rpcs create, but there isn't much to compare. Yours just do actions, (some of) theirs have personalities. What do I know about phrog from the Adventure Log? Well.. he is a ghost... and he observes things and grows despairing whenever he needs rescue.. not much personality there. What do I observe about phrog ingame? A little hot-tempered sometimes but mostly likes playing around with people's minds, experimenting and seeing how people react. Don't get any of that in the Adventure Log. Is it because he is currently alienated and confused in his situation or is it because although his character still has that personality, it isn't portrayed in the log? Personally, it seems like phrog wouldn't be alienated and confused in this sort of situation [i]because[/i] of his personality. Pick any other rpc in the Adventure Log and I don't receive any of what I note about them ingame, only where their story is heading. Maybe it is just judgment.. but the Adventure Log certainly seems dry. Not saying you should be constantly repeating details like RJ smashing a clay model, just that details like that are severely lacking. You say that you cannot repeat glaring aspects of a character or else it will be repetitive.. but that is what you're doing. The little character in the Adventure Log is composed of the most apparent, flattened details of roles of rpcs. Again, my own judgment.. but nonetheless. Things like RJ smashing a clay model catched my attention because your characters hardly seem to do anything that really defines them, and I mean to say that you should go out of your way to include more details based on the character's personality which do not seem so basic. Don't overdo it, and keep on doing details based on the same aspect, or else like you said it will seem 1-d (more than they are right now), but it's not like they only have one aspect to write on anyway.. or they shouldn't have only one, anyway. You don't necessarily have to make things a lot longer, just characterize their actions a more specific way. Now that you say it, I am inclined to agree that the Necrovion side vs. Wodin was a typical bad vs. good, and in that case, good job in representing it. It angers me, however, that there was not really any roleplayers who made it more than that, because in the actual story of the game, the depth goes far deeper. But guess that's relatively realistic when translated into the story.. a whole bunch of idiots fighting each other for stupid reasons, happens a lot in real life. That does seem like a good reason for the hacked-seeming grammar, though I do not think you cannot do a better job anyway. Look, I know that I may be underestimating the difficulty of the things I am demanding, but nonetheless they do remain. The things I am writing about, I am trying to tell you so that if you want to know areas in which you can improve, you have my opinion. It may be critical, but I am representative of a person who reads what you create.. it's a legitimate impression. Not like I am trying to attack you. In the end, I am satisfied with your post in regard to why the Adventure Log isn't better than what it is. I think the main reason is that you don't have the time and effort to spend to make an Adventure Log that has character and is within the length limit (which I agree is difficult, but completely possible... the limit, yes, is constraining, but a good writer can work with limits well, at least better than this), which is reasonable since I believe you are not being paid for this. Guess another reason is that you're still learning about how to deal with the word limit in the first place, not considering character at all.. sacrifice of grammar shows at least that. So you may need some time if you want to improve in the areas I feel you need to improve. Unfortunately, that means an Adventure Log that is significantly worse than it could be, which worsens the game a lot when it is such a large part of the game.. maybe you can get some more writers, and have each writer have one story branch to write. That way you can each grow to understand a rpc's character very well and spend a little more work on representing that character even while you have to keep "everything involved in the process." Reading your posts I got the impression that you're the only one who actually writes the log.. I thought you had some writers in your alliance? By the way, don't believe you need to sacrifice spelling for space. Do you have a spellchecking program? So anyway, that is my opinion. Do with it what you will.. you're the Master Archivist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren Posted October 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 delete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggot Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 No, you are the one who didn't catch what I meant with sacrificing spelling.. it was just a short note because I often spy spelling mistakes in the Adventure Log which can easily be eliminated with a spell check. You can go on about how you're not a grammar Nazi and so on but, how much can it take to do a spellcheck? I know you were Wodin's commander and your history is one of the reasons I believed you were biased in the adventure log. Do not make the mistake of thinking I do not know MD and it's people, even if I have not been vocal until now. maggot is my newest account in a series of many.. I have been watching you all for a long time, you just did not know... and will never going to know whether or not you knew me by another name before B) Back on subject, call me a pain-liberal if you will, but it is annoying, do you really fit your role much, besides your writing ability?...if you must have your limits and adhere to judgment, at least say so publically instead of claiming you are neutral. Rather have an unbiased Master Archivist, but an biased Master Archivist is at least realistic, just make it clear so I do not have unnecessary expectations. You misinterpret my words. Don't mean to say I am the representative of the majority--that would be idiotic, because no one supports what I say. That does not mean you should assume I am minority, although I think the majority is wondering why the "heck" I care so much, truthfully.. it is not like my continual criticism of different aspects in the game wins me anything in terms of popularity. Anyway, how to say.. my words express the thoughts of someone who reads your work, a legitimate impression, something that could be reached by a real person, so regardless of whether or not it is right you should take into consideration the things which made that impression. It may not seem like much, but felt like you felt the only thing I was doing was attacking. And yes, I have heard your speech about how people are disgusting as a whole, you say it more than you realize. Agreed. If you would like to know something curious, I find you one of a prime example of why I agree.. probably because you do not balance your hate of people as a whole with love for every individual. Yes, Ren, I love you and everyone, and hope I make you grossly disorientated so that your head pains with this tangent. Really don't know why you are spending the time to tell me about my nitpickiness. It is up to you to prioritize and decide how much value you place on opinion. But since you keep kindly inviting a reply by doing so, I have no idea how your Adventure Log is more fun than it would be with more character potrayal, must be missing something. Does your style of writing make more people know who are involved in your writing? The original Adventure Log was also related to players, I do not see the point you're trying to communicate. If anything, more character portrayal would make the characters seem more familiar as similar to the interaction between those rpcs and regular players, no? And how does the fact that people who just read the Adventure Log don't involve themselves in the game (which is self-evident) make the Adventure Log more fun? Clarify if you wish, don't if you don't. Anyway rather you say you reached that goal for yourself and the people who responded positively to you, because you are not speaking for me and I do not appreciate generalization. Thank you for acknowledging my opinion, though don't know if you are doing more than dismissing it based on your own assumptions...like I said, it is yours to do with as you wish regardless of my noble preferences, Master Archivist. A few more comments: for the amount of regret you show, your error you reveal annoys me much. Don't care if Kiddies are so stupid as to construe themselves as stereotypical evil peoples by following your dark ritual suggestion, but an Archivist involving himself in events that he chooses to write about is pretty idiotic. It goes beyond having a bias. Realistic, I suppose...but where is the limit? Hope you don't repeat. And no, your explanation which attempts to change my impression of the players of the game does not convince me. Did you force Kiddies to go along with your dark-magic ritual? The fact that they accepted is almost the same as them coming up with it by themselves. Did you also force them to do all the other stereotypical evil actions? How about those Brightlings? Did you also suggest actions for them, to make them seem more Necro-ish? Your action probably had little effect overall, don't give yourself so much credit. Don't think the game is stereotypical... Think the players just make stereotypical characters with stereotypical motives, which in turn affects the Adventure Log. To the contrary I felt the story, the one written for the game by professional writers, had much more depth. Can only hope players will not be given the ability to upsurp roles of angiens and shades because who knows how they would characterize them.. at least this way, they are roleplaying their own original characters which can be flat as they want for all it matters. It is accurate reflection of the playerbase because they are the creations of those players. The above was just in reference to the Necro and Golemus masses. I know there are good roleplayers in the game, some of them are in the Adventure Log. What bugs me is that the Adventure Log does not reflect them like it does so accurately for the masses. Read The Hobbit, not the other Lord of the Ring books. Don't read a lot of books, especially not ones in English, but enough to feel be able to relate the Adventure Log to the ones I disliked. There's the same types in Spanish as in English. My hope is that you will gain those writers and the experience you are lacking so that you are more able to create an Adventure Log that does more than portray the overall. As time goes on it should happen regardless of difficulty eventually, provided you make that one of your goals.. Want to prompt you to keep on trying to improve. Not prompting any new reply.. I have gotten a discussion from this topic, and that is what I wanted. This post is just my response, little more than commentary now (enjoy my returned insults, Ren, I enjoyed them very much). If you do not have anything to add except that once again you are not going spend effort to try to please everyone, I will not necessarily be pleased by the unneeded effort you spend. If you do have something to add or wish to respond, go ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormrunner Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 wasn't really here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren Posted October 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 delete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggot Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 How unfriendly, stormrunner. It is only an opinion...forums are for discussion, and Ren seemed to be asking for input although I do not really think he appreciates it after the fact. For that matter I do not see how any of your points counteracted my own ideas, not convincing enough to make me shut up. But good to see that someone other than I and Ren has an actual opinion about the progress of the Adventure Log. I am not sure I would have preferred a direct conversation...fuming as you term it is thinking and organizing points to create a structured discussion for me. But if you had told me so, I would not have minded coming to chat about this Adventure Log, I do not think it is hard for me to place my position and respond on this matter. Hardly see the difference concerning your neutrality and the neutrality of the Archivists if you allow your own lack of neutrality to affect your Archivist work. Don't pretend you have less control than you do..unless you speedwrite and do not reread your work, it is not that things are slipping your awareness, it is that you cannot resist allowing them into the writing. If you cannot resist, very well then, but I rather you not pretend you are trying to be neutral. Oh, Ren, dear love who brings forth waves of tenderness, most of us think we know best, and my impression is that you are included. Wish more value were placed upon my opinion as a legitimate impression but I guess I am not loved enough. Don't need to say I am right or agree to change your ways...but don't need to be so hurtfully dismissive either. Well you have repeated often enough that you do not try to please everyone, so if you think so lowly of my opinion I suppose it is good of you to be so truthful. At least feelings are mutual. Next time, please tell me right off my opinion is not wanted so I do not make you waste so much effort complaining afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren Posted October 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 dst, please delete this topic. Its purpose is completely depleted by meaninglessness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dst Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 I should have warn you all to stay on topic but frankly I don't really read all those long posts... So please stop arguing, throwing insults at each other or other bad stuff. For god sake! It's a game! Don't ruin the fun of it by doing this. Please! ps: next time I will not ask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren Posted October 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Thanks, dst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggot Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 Maybe I should not have showed my annoyance, but while I may have had some paragraphs less related to the topic and more in response to Ren's personal slights, I do not think the discussion derailed and you might see that if you read past my annoyed words, moderator. My last was primarily concerned about the Adventure Log's objectivity and while it may have been directed personally to Ren, it is a valid concern for me and I wish he had replied. I find it within my rights to express any feelings I have, but I regret my lack of composure. It bothers me that Ren has deleted the content all of his posts...they were very telling. This discussion was very important to me because of what it told me about the players and the game. Is there any way I could get records of those posts somewhere, or is it impossible now? Otherwise, like Ren, I propose that the thread be closed because I see no point in it..I do not think he is searching for opinions any longer. But if you are going to delete it for whatever reason, please tell me first so I can save it onto the computer and try to analyze what Ren said in each post he deleted. And Ren, I would still encourage you to continue to try improve your Adventure Log, preferably in the areas of character portrayal and objectivity but otherwise in being able to write more smoothly with a word limit. Do not try to do all the work, there are people with talent in the game you should be happy to work with and will help a lot with the workload...good luck finding them. Try make the Adventure Log the best it can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dst Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 I will not delete this topic nor close it as long as will be of some sort of interest. The discussion here has turned more into a personal war. I do not like Ren (and you all know that) but also I do not agree with fighting. You were both wrong. How do I know that? Look at what you made to this topic (Ren deleted his posts, maggot posted loong and venomous answers). Yes, you have the right to post your thoughts and you are free to do it as long as you respect some rules... I just warned you in a friendly post, I did not closed the topic or delete it. My 3 cents.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty4life Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 AL is going tooooo slow Clock Master 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Marquis Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 The latest delay is actually due to working out some new things that will utilize the Forums AND the AL together. You'll see what I mean very soon, as it will be revealed later tonight(tonight referring to Central Standard Time - US - GMT -6). But yes, the AL will be moving in an odd ebb and flow over the next week or two. But it WILL move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren Posted October 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 Yes, the AL is going to travel a teeny bit slower for a little bit...Not too much we can do about it right now, but just as soon as things are back to normal, you'll be getting 3-5 posts a day again. Please be patient. We're doing our best to get back on track. Thanks, Renavoid Master Archivist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragel Posted November 8, 2008 Report Share Posted November 8, 2008 Personally i like how the AL is going some times just like in real life you will get more information and some times less but i like where its heading and look forward to seeing it grow into something even better that's just my 2c Kragel The Metal Mage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren Posted November 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 That's a...different response than I ever really expected in an opinion poll. But I understand you of course. It is a most wise approach to not freaking out and having a hernia when you have to wait for an update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soltis Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 [quote name='Calyx of Isis' post='15286' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:31 AM']Funny how people choose only one even when more than one is permitted![/quote] You'd be surprised how many people are simply unaware that the check-boxes mean you can select more than one and radio buttons are one only. Should say so in the poll somewhere, it hasn't quite become all around knowledge. -Sporadic -All 5 -2 I can explain my first and third choices rather quickly- I don't know /why/ I'm reading the log at all. It hasn't affected me in-game in the slightest, I haven't been able to participate in it, and I haven't seen it affect the world in a month or so. This is offset by my second selection though- there shouldn't be a "set creativity style" for a log written by a multitude of people. Each person's going to tell their own story their own way, that's what makes that feature special. At the moment, it feels frivolous. It might not BE frivolous, but I don't see what's going on enough to care, nor get hooked on it enough to backread the thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty4life Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 oke i have solution how to speed up AL, and still keep it slow its obvious that main story needs to be slowed down for some time for some unknown reason, so why not to start side story, and everybody will be happy ^^ Clock Master 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormrunner Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 who as a story that be fun to read and write though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodpuppy Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 It all seems so firmiluar.. Its like i was there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren Posted November 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 [quote name='Soltis' post='20150' date='Nov 17 2008, 04:22 PM']You'd be surprised how many people are simply unaware that the check-boxes mean you can select more than one and radio buttons are one only. Should say so in the poll somewhere, it hasn't quite become all around knowledge. -Sporadic -All 5 -2 I can explain my first and third choices rather quickly- I don't know /why/ I'm reading the log at all. It hasn't affected me in-game in the slightest, I haven't been able to participate in it, and I haven't seen it affect the world in a month or so. This is offset by my second selection though- there shouldn't be a "set creativity style" for a log written by a multitude of people. Each person's going to tell their own story their own way, that's what makes that feature special. At the moment, it feels frivolous. It might not BE frivolous, but I don't see what's going on enough to care, nor get hooked on it enough to backread the thing.[/quote] Sorry for taking so long to reply here...I've been extremely busy. I certainly understand your concern here...the log often seems like it's not doing anything. I assure you though, right now is not one of those times. The log is not just there to actually change the game...sometimes it is there to inform you and let you learn about the secrets of the game and use that to change the game yourself. The Adventure Log does not come to you (usually). Usually, you have to go to it. Yes, that sometimes seems very arduous and time consuming and boring and "omg wtf who cares", but the results are worth it a little more. There are secrets embedded in the AL that people miss because they're just reading the story and hoping it changes gameplay for them. Don't think of the AL as a changelog. Think of it as...rumors that you hear when you're sitting in a common room, enjoying your tea or coffee or water or beer. I know that the AL is sporadic..that can't always be helped...although, I also know that it is a step up from what it used to be. So..you can rejoice in knowing the AL moves faster than it used to. And, I am still busy with classes, so it most likely will still be a little sporadic...but I'm trying to keep it moving. So, please be patient there. I completely agree with you. There shouldn't be just one way to interpret a story. To be perfectly honest with you...I set that particular question in the poll up to prove a point that the "history report" style that was becoming so boring with the Shade Ballance was not at all what people wanted, and that phrog's branch was more involved and fun. That's mean on my part, but it got the AL a change it needed. [quote name='Liberty4life']oke i have solution how to speed up AL, and still keep it slow its obvious that main story needs to be slowed down for some time for some unknown reason, so why not to start side story, and everybody will be happy ^^[/quote] Well, the speeding up the AL isn't as simple as it sounds...it is partially slow due to my being largely absent from the game lately. I apologize for that. The main story has enough "filler" to not need to be slowed down really. It just needs to actually be written and posted. HAHA. As to a sidestory, the main story needed to be much further along before one of those would pop up. Now, however, it is a long, and some new branches should be starting soon.. If I didn't answer your questions, sorry. I tend to start rambling about one thing and forget what I'm trying to address. So, ask away. Oh! And, the other problem that's making the AL move so slow is there are only 3 branches and we don't want too much to happen in just one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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