Combat, Balance And Activity...

[GgSeverin]

ok I refrase: without the battles MD is not even a evolved chat client

Edited September 20, 2009 by GgSeverin

[Czez]

Bump!

The festival is underscoring this problem once again as a number of players, not all noobs, have had to leave GoE because of the the pounding they are getting from very strong players who don't bloody need to do it. For example, Udgard was close to stat damage, and he's an RPC who should be able to attend public events. I'm worried about balance and forced to attack weaker players who I know can't afford it as they are getting what I'm getting already... That is not fun, and it is not interesting.
Bloody do something to fix this! Hold the festival in a sanctuary if you have to, but that doesn't really solve the problem. If you want people to RP, they need to be able to walk around in public. Fight imbalance is killing player interaction. There need to be severe disincentives for pounding the weak. Make stat damage for players with too high stats if they target someone with too great an overall difference. That's balance. But I don't care what's done, as long as something is, soon.

[AqlBeast]

With many MP5 using tokened creatures in ritual, I can't even get a victory anymore not unless I go to GG and destroy all MP2. Either I kill MP5 too fast or I get killed too fast. But idling around in certain areas get worse for unbalance profile. Active players attack idle players, that's a given. But the defender rarely gets any victory for won battle, they usually gets defeated for lost battle. As a result idling adds on the burden of having a higher difference in unbalanced profile not to mention some decent negative stats from the battles. One of the thing I dislike is easily being penalties for a very unbalance profile while not having a mean to easily offset the penalties or to reset the unbalance profile. Maybe a wishpoint item to reset an unbalanced profile. There is no point in battling when all you receive is negative stats nowadays. Like Czez says, either I go attack players with average rituals to make up for the negative stats I lost or hide myself in a sanctuary during a Festival (even though it is a Festival of Pain).Just my own opinion. I apologize if anyone is offended, token user or whoever [I use tokens too though ]

Edited October 6, 2009 by AqlBeast

[Death Bell]

contact me after festival i will show u a way to get victories

[AqlBeast]

By victory meaning attacking MP2 at GG, I will decline. But seriously hopefully something may be done to alleviate this. Still thinking for more ideas....head hurst (guess this is how Mur feels?)

[Death Bell]

no not by mp2.. another way am sure you will know but you wouldn't be practicing it

[Burns]

new input to get my reputation lowered:
Both balance and tokens screw our combats, and not just a bit imo. Balance is not attractive, and tokens overpowered.
So, i suggest to combine them to probably solve both.

In my head, it'd make sense in that way:
All tokens are set to work with just 50% of their power by default.
By being in balance you can improve your tokens to get full power, steps to and from balance working just like the bonus reward.
e.g. perfect balance makes +50% on token power, summing up to full present power, 1 battle away from perfection makes +47,5%, etc.

As added bonus, you lower the opponent's token power by up to 50% by being balanced. Same system as above, -50%, -47,5%...

Figures base on present full power, which is assumed to stay the same and the base for all %-calculations.

Example of how things work together:
>Perfect balance against off-balance:
tokens of perfect balance work with full power (50% normal plus 50% balance bonus [-the part they lose for being attacker in case]), tokens of off-balance work with 0% power (50%-50%)

>off-balance vs. off balance:
both sides have 50%, no boni for nobody

>balanced vs. balanced:
both sides work on 50%, each gets 50%+50%-50% (normal plus bonus minus opponents bonus)

>perfect balance vs. 10 battles off:
perfect has 50%+50%-25%=75%, 10 off has 50%+25%-50%=25% token power


Sounds evil, doesn't it? I like that...

Why that way? Because for any normal player, it doesn't make much of a difference if their tokens give them full bonus or half, the difference is not _that_ much, and they still could pick if balance pays or not for them personally.
But if people want to play in the highest class with their fully tokened crit-boost rits, they have to play balanced, and therefore leave the newbies alone when they can't afford the honor-loss anymore. And if they don't get balanced, well, then anybody who is can make their tokens practically disappear for their fights.

This is not nice, and a lot of people will hate it, but if one of my weird ideas still makes sense after i read what i wrote, it's definitely worth being posted xD

[Chewett]

Love the idea, its a really good one, But what happens if someone is totally unbalanced, and someone who is perfectly balanced? they get no bonus?

I love the fact that the unbalanced statfarmers will now have to balance so their tokens work. Great idea!

[Shadowseeker]

Still, then the definition of balance would have to change..

I mean, staying at exactly the same won't be nice, I'd suggest it in 5% steps of the profile wins..so once oyu are within 5% of balance, you get full boost, or so, etc.

[Burns]

Chewie
[quote name='Burns' date='03 February 2010 - 09:56 PM' timestamp='1265230603' post='53783']


>Perfect balance against off-balance:
tokens of perfect balance work with full power (50% normal plus 50% balance bonus [-the part they lose for being attacker in case]), tokens of off-balance work with 0% power (50%-50%)

[/quote]

Yeah, whoever is too unbalanced gets absolutely no token-power against someone who is perfectly balanced.

Shadow:
Definitely a good idea, i think we already had that some time...
But it's probably better to work on one thing at a time, extension of balance would be the next step if things failed with the current system
On the other hand it might simply be part of the challenge to get a victory when you need it, and a not-victory when you don't need them...

I've been in balance for a few weeks now and toyed with it, as long as i have balance, i can pick and choose whom i want to attack and whom not, once i'm out of it i need to get back without choosing, which often means burning 300-600 hard earned honor in a few seconds, and i consider that just another part of the balance challenge.

[dst]

Just when I decided to throw away my balance...
But I like the idea. It just gives people a real motive to stay balanced.
The downside will be the same as the one coming from the skill damage: few players online. Even now I can barely find players to attack. If that gets implemented...I will have to shu everyone to GOE if I want to get some kills.

[Burns]

I don't really see that happening, though... At least if you leave honor-alts out of consideration, that is

What I'd see that way would rather be like that: Most people want balance, and people who are pretty strong can make it.
When they are there, they try to avoid vics and losses and probably set defences with tokens and stuff and be generally unbeatable, which doesn't change much for the 5-newbies, they can't beat people now, they won't do it in future.

However, that strong bunch gets into honor issues when they fight against(=kick rears of) people who are weaker and less balanced than them, so newbies would be grinded through our wheels until they are 300-400 losses off balance, and then we just don't want to afford the honor loss for those wins anymore, which basically protects them from veterans.
Right now i see really strong people attacking just about anything, the honor they lose for beating up weak people can easily be regained by beating up a few more balanced people, so there'd be a whole lot of change for the weaker players, namely a division of the mp5-society into the good fighters at and around balance and the weak fighters (either because of actual weakness or lacking age on crits) around 400-500 losses.

Both would be pretty much unable to attack each other, out of different considerations, and some time the weaker people might get their age and knowledge, probably by losing against evil defences of the balanced people on purpose just like we learned it and advance, getting them into a stage where they still can attack their old enemies and gradually get incomings from the balanced guys, and little by little getting from weak to strong.

So, no, i don't think that there'd be less activity, but probably even more activity when the real bottoms of mp5 don't get into skill damage because there is nobody who can afford to push them there. And yes, i took the allies into consideration, but honestly don't think that there'll be much of a problem with that, if they get too low, they get out of ally and train back up... and if they are too lazy for that, why, then i don't see much reason for them to be in any ally, those are still kind of elite-ish, not just for anybody who likes it...

btw, this post is not really related to the ideas, it's just my personal view on why mur made a balance and honor system that we managed to screw up because balance is not cool enough XD
PS: MAKE BALANCE ATTRACTIVE! *points to token-idea*

Edited February 5, 2010 by Burns

[vampir]

I recently tried MP4 and i really like it. Except for the part that only two players i've met so far give me positive honor. I can avoid linked problems with sacrificing higher level creatures, and i don't mind the time lapse. And i will try to keep as much in balance as i can.

Idea deserves respect, coming from *Burns* it should deserve a %boost on that respect value. It should be worked around a bit, but i can't say more since i don't know more on the topic. I do know however, that balance is by all means 'older' than anything else combat related. Either that, or please change the newbie information players can gather from reading [more info] links in-game and outdated personal pages from fine teachers such as Lifeline.

Peace and love to y'all!

[Burns]

pokepoke!

[quote name='Burns' date='03 February 2010 - 10:56 PM' timestamp='1265230603' post='53783']
new input to get my reputation lowered:
Both balance and tokens screw our combats, and not just a bit imo. Balance is not attractive, and tokens overpowered.
So, i suggest to combine them to probably solve both.

In my head, it'd make sense in that way:
All tokens are set to work with just 50% of their power by default.
By being in balance you can improve your tokens to get full power, steps to and from balance working just like the bonus reward.
e.g. perfect balance makes +50% on token power, summing up to full present power, 1 battle away from perfection makes +47,5%, etc.

As added bonus, you lower the opponent's token power by up to 50% by being balanced. Same system as above, -50%, -47,5%...

Figures base on present full power, which is assumed to stay the same and the base for all %-calculations.

Example of how things work together:
>Perfect balance against off-balance:
tokens of perfect balance work with full power (50% normal plus 50% balance bonus [-the part they lose for being attacker in case]), tokens of off-balance work with 0% power (50%-50%)

>off-balance vs. off balance:
both sides have 50%, no boni for nobody

>balanced vs. balanced:
both sides work on 50%, each gets 50%+50%-50% (normal plus bonus minus opponents bonus)

>perfect balance vs. 10 battles off:
perfect has 50%+50%-25%=75%, 10 off has 50%+25%-50%=25% token power


Sounds evil, doesn't it? I like that...

Why that way? Because for any normal player, it doesn't make much of a difference if their tokens give them full bonus or half, the difference is not _that_ much, and they still could pick if balance pays or not for them personally.
But if people want to play in the highest class with their fully tokened crit-boost rits, they have to play balanced, and therefore leave the newbies alone when they can't afford the honor-loss anymore. And if they don't get balanced, well, then anybody who is can make their tokens practically disappear for their fights.

This is not nice, and a lot of people will hate it, but if one of my weird ideas still makes sense after i read what i wrote, it's definitely worth being posted xD
[/quote]

[Shnappie]

[quote name='Burns' date='03 February 2010 - 09:56 PM' timestamp='1265230603' post='53783']
Example of how things work together:
>Perfect balance against off-balance:
tokens of perfect balance work with full power (50% normal plus 50% balance bonus [-the part they lose for being attacker in case]), tokens of off-balance work with 0% power (50%-50%)

>off-balance vs. off balance:
both sides have 50%, no boni for nobody

>balanced vs. balanced:
both sides work on 50%, each gets 50%+50%-50% (normal plus bonus minus opponents bonus)

>perfect balance vs. 10 battles off:
perfect has 50%+50%-25%=75%, 10 off has 50%+25%-50%=25% token power
[/quote]

I dont see the logic in this combat system.
On the event Metal Bunny held i gained 150 losses just for being there.
I have not yet found a way to fight against fully tokened Angien and Drachs with untokened, non shop creatures,
since that is what most new MP5 are fighting with.

So i dont see how it would make sence that a balanced Vet gets 100% token balance for fighting me (without tokens) on 0% token power.
Even the stats most veterans have already make it impossible to do any damage over 1 per hit.
So only way to be able to fight them would be spending days and days in the GGG thats no longer there.

If you want to do something to get fights more balanced you should look in what new players are up against,
mostly without any knowledge of the game mechanics.

i would say if you want to help them not becomming unballanced, help them if they are inballenced.

>Perfect balance against off-balance newbie (less then xxx days):
tokens of perfect balance work with 0% power,
tokens of off-balance newbie work with 100% power

yes that would realy max out the newbie indeed if he is using tokens, but it makes as much sence to me as what you proposed.

[Burns]

no, it doesn't, because it gives a bonus to people who are out of balance.
if balance was a state people wanted, they'd get a lot of negative honor for attacking you when you're just meager 100 losses off balance, and you wouldn't need to worry about the veterans attacking you anymore.

the point is not that newbies should have a chance against vets, but that vets have an incentive to stay balanced and leave the off-balanced newbies alone.

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Shnappie' date='17 July 2010 - 01:16 PM' timestamp='1279394168' post='64082']
i would say if you want to help them not becomming unballanced, help them if they are inballenced.

>Perfect balance against off-balance newbie (less then xxx days):
tokens of perfect balance work with 0% power,
tokens of off-balance newbie work with 100% power

yes that would realy max out the newbie indeed if he is using tokens, but it makes as much sence to me as what you proposed.
[/quote]
Look at Eon. Around 60 active days, if I remember correctly, and a fully tokened ritual with a GG, a Rusty and a Rein, and three pimped Grasans.

[Eon]

I had around 80 days when I got that ritual

[Bronzometh]

When I red the 1st post, I actually liked the idea of extending the balance with different percentages, and thought there will be more good ideas from Burns. But I was very disappointed after I red the whole post (and the next posts).
I think that ppl don't care about the balance because it might be hard to keep it, and by the proposed extension (based on percentages), since it will be easier to stay more or less balanced after more hundreds fights, more ppl will try to stay balanced. If they can, of course, because those who already have 1K more losses than wins, will be out of balance for a long time, and if the balance will be so important that they won't be able to gain anything for the 800-900 wins they need to get balanced, not only they won't be interested, but this could have even worse effects on them.
Just imagine yourself in their situation, where they need, let's say 900 wins to get balanced, and gain absolutely nothing from those 900 wins - would you actually try to get those wins (there would be allot of time spent in GGG, considering that if all your ideas will be implemented, they will get swords for non-dmg wins)? And let's say they will actually get the wins, and become balanced again, and then go out - they will get attacked by stronger players again, will become unbalanced again, and they will have to go to GGG to get rebalanced again. This will eventually become boring (only teh idea of playing just to be balanced seems boring), and MP5 will be in the same situation as it is now. And for the few time the weak players will be balanced, they will most likely use a single tree with 0% influence in defense, so that they don't loose to much, meaning the attacker won't get too much either. So, this is not a good solution. Indeed, extending the balance would be nice. But making the balance the only purpose of this game (and it will be the only purpose, since staying balance will be the only way to gain something) is quite ridiculous. It is good to give more reasons and make it easier for ppl to stay balanced, but is not good to force them.

IMO, we must know the reason why MP5 weak players are hiding instead of playing, and try to get them out of sanctuary by removing the issues that makes them hide. If it is the skill dmg, then remove it. If it is the fact that is boring to be attacked all the time by veterans, then do something about that issue (I.e: extend the honor loss - let's say to 1 point per difference, and with no maximum limit - this way, if someone who is balanced (have 0 difference) attacks someone who have 1K more wins, the attacker get -1K honor. This will eventually make veterans to stop attacking weak players. Anyway. those are just some examples, which should not count. But you should consider every MP5 ideas, and any MP5 should say something about that (what they don't like, and how would they change the things they don't like).

As I said in other post: give ppl a reason to do something, not force them.
@Burst: you broke GGG by force. What have you solved by that? Not much I guess (exept for having the satisfaction that you actually did it). You found out that there are other issues at MP5 (more important than GGG, but you probably havent noticed them at that time, because you were blinded by the anti-GGG gorilas, and probably thought that indeed, GGG was the main reason for the MP5 issuesd), and your solution is to FORCE weak ppl to get out and fight ? I don't think you will solve anything this way. Ppl don't play this game because they are forced to do it. PPl play this game because they like it, but when they will be forced to play, they will just quit, because they won't like it anymore.

Edited August 3, 2010 by Bronzometh

[No one]

[quote name='Bronzometh' date='03 August 2010 - 01:29 PM' timestamp='1280834968' post='65004']
IMO, we must know the reason why MP5 weak players are hiding instead of playing, and try to get them out of sanctuary by removing the issues that makes them hide.
[/quote]
Bronzometh, take it slow, put questions then answers. Don't put the answers first.


[quote name='Bronzometh' date='03 August 2010 - 01:29 PM' timestamp='1280834968' post='65004']
(I.e: extend the honor loss - let's say to 1 point per difference, and with no maximum limit - this way, if someone who is balanced (have 0 difference) attacks someone who have 1K more wins, the attacker get -1K honor. This will eventually make veterans to stop attacking weak players. Anyway. those are just some exemples, which should not count. But you should consider every MP5 ideas, and any MP5 should say something about that (what they don't like, and how would they change the things they don't like).
[/quote]

Who said that only the weak players are unbalanced ? Let me tell you that only SMART players are balanced, not the strong, not the weak.

I do agree with forcing everybody to get balance (by removing rewards to unbalanced) because that way there will be more activity and only the lazy would get skill damage then.

The only problem with that solution is the lack of knowledge on game mechanics so that ppl don't know how to get themselves balanced.

I know that it is difficult (even for me as I keep getting loses) but it is not impossible.
Do play together, do organize weekly gatherings to exchange info & wins ... just play the damn game.

Do you need a fool proof solution ppl ? Can't you get it for yourselves ? Do you need the specs for each ritual?

Put your mind to work and do the damn RP you need to make it work.

[Burns]

He, no benefit from closing ggg? You wish...
People once again fight for getting better, and actually cooperate instead of bashing on idlers, and you say there's no gain? Probably not for you, because you now need to play to get better, instead of putting up a mouse-macro, if only in your head, to get better

Balance is one of the targets of MD, of course everybody should want it, and quite obviously weaklings should NOT have it... I mean, do you get your diploma when you enlist to university, or after you're done?
When balance is something you and me and everybody wants, the active will be there, and the inactive won't. Because it's supposed to be like that.
And when you are playing inactvely, you won't have to bother about the people who actively play anymore, because they don't have a gain from attacking you, as simple as that.
You won't beat them just like that, but they play against each other, and not against you, so who cares?

As it is, active and strong people can choose to not be balanced without losing major benefits. Which puts them in a situation to attack anything at leisure, because they'll never get into honor issues, and THAT in turn pushes weak and less active people off balance and into skill damage. If balance was a state people wanted to be in, they couldn't afford to attack those far out of it (far meaning 200 losses, not 990).

And if somebody gets more than 200 losses off balance, it's been done on purpose, and they deserve to suffer. They wouldn't be the first with that problem who overcome it.

[Bronzometh]

@no one: Certainly, strong ppl are unbalanced because they have too many wins. But is easy for them to get balanced. They don't even need to do anything except staying idle and waiting to get the losses. But for those who are unbalanced because of the 1K more losses, it is allot more difficult, not only because they need to get 900 wins, and get no reward while doing that, but they will also get losses again because of strong players (Burns suggested that unbalanced ppl will not get a loss if they are killed in round 0, but when they become balanced again, things will change back to normal). Even the smartest player won't be able to stay balanced this way if he is weak, because as soon as it becomes balanced, he will be unbalanced again.

@burns: indeed, ppl do cooperate instead of training on idles (and it actually works quite fine). But I remember that the anti-GGG gorillas were expecting a greater income of new ppl to MP5. I don't know if that actually happened. And even if it did, now I see you have another issue: ppl are hiding. So, the main problem was not solved. You still don't have enough training dummies. Then you come with another desperate solution (forcing ppl to stay balanced). And, as I said, this won't have the outcome you are hoping either, more than that, it might have the opposite result: ppl will have another fear of advancing to MP5: because it might be difficult for them to stay balanced at MP5, they will have another reason to stay at MP4, where staying balanced is easy for everybody (by cooperation).

Luckily for us, you can't implement this rules. You need Mur to implement them, and you try to convince him that this is the best solution. I try to convince him that this is the worst solution.

I do agree that something must be changed in this game. Why don't we just post ideas (maybe even make a contest with rewards for best ideas, so that more ppl are interested in thinking of solutions for the issues), and let the best solutions be selected in a democratic way: by voting. Everybody should have the right to express their opinions. I bet many ppl are afraid to even say a word in forum (either because they are afraid to say something that veterans won't like, or maybe they are afraid to say something because their mentor have other opinions, or maybe they don't like getting negative rating, and so on).

Edited August 3, 2010 by Bronzometh

[dst]

After writing a big and nasty post I erased it and started all over. Hope this time I will be more decent.
Let's begin:
[quote]Certainly, strong ppl are unbalanced because they have too many wins.[/quote]
There is ABSOLUTELY NOBODY who is unbalanced cause he/she has more wins then loses (except honor farms but even them usually have a lot less).You SHOULD know this if you bother to OBSERVE how a lose is gained compared to a win.


[quote]Even the smartest player won't be able to stay balanced this way if he is weak, because as soon as it becomes balanced, he will be unbalanced again.[/quote]
Newsflash! A SMART player will know that there are ways to stay balanced once you get balanced. Even by losing tons of battles. But hey! Why bother reading those nasty announcements when it's better to complain on the forum?

[quote]ppl are hiding[/quote]
You know what? I like the chase. And I do have methods to bring people out of their hideouts.

[quote]forcing ppl to stay balanced[/quote]
Again...newsflash: that's the whole concept of the training system: winnings are good but so are loses. Or the other way around if you prefer.

[quote]I bet many ppl are afraid to even say a word in forum.[/quote]
If they do then they do not deserve to have their problems solved.How should I guess what a noob wants if that noob doesn't say it on the forum where he/she is supposed to say things?


Ok...after re-reading it well..it sounds better then the first version. Post!

[No one]

[quote name='Bronzometh' date='03 August 2010 - 08:48 PM' timestamp='1280861339' post='65022']
I do agree that something must be changed in this game. Why don't we just post ideas (maybe even make a contest with rewards for best ideas, so that more ppl are interested in thinking of solutions for the issues), and let the best solutions be selected in a democratic way: by voting. Everybody should have the right to express their opinions.
[/quote]
Let me say this : READ THE FORUM. There are MANY "smart" ideas on how to fix this. And the most popular of all would be to remove the limits of honor / remove the win / lose system.

yes, it would be interesting a pool on ideas but on which is the most stupid of all

How can you or any "player with voting access" would be credited with the right to vote when you have no idea on what it means.

If you want to vote, vote a president. This is not a democracy it is a Murocracy.

At this moment (with under 1 year of activity) I would suggest you to try to understand the game instead of changing it.

Have fun and live well.

[Burns]

and apart from what the people ahead of me said, have a look at the time stamp on the first post