Torch Competetion

[Lifeline]

i keep getting so many complains that i will post my opinion publically now. TC annoys me enough already so here why i "abandon" my land:
none citizen and even the opponent can pick a MB torch...
so what does the score have to do with MB? how can it possibly represent MB? how can it possibly show the effort of its citizen?
all i see is a competition where traitors, cheater, abuser, citizen, imposer and everybody else can fight for ANY land they want. they pick up a torch and claim fighting for the land just to sacrifice it to one of their own people to make them score. and after that some weird score is supposed to show what the land did? how is that? there is no connection at all.

lets continue:
how many steps does it take from GoE to winds sanct and how many from GoE to golemus checkpoint? 8 to MB and 19 to golemus. why would anybody ever go to gg to score a point if he has to wait and walk more than twice as far?
loreroot people can simply use the back exit to score but everybody else can only if they buy it in the WPShop? how fair is that?
so MB doesnt only have the shortest way from GoE to its capitol but is also attackable from 2 sides? ...awesome i welcome everybody to score in MB.
next problem is new players can only pick up a torch from MB because they have no access to any other land. they wonder what it is click on it and leave the sanct. and are nothing more but free wins to the opponent.
even some mp5 have no chance to enter necro. should they commit "treason" and pick a torch from another land just to get access to their own land? and letting golumus people walk around the world and through the whole labyrinth just to get into their land to pick a torch is great as well.
i wont try to think of more unpleasing stuff because i dont want ending up getting even more angry. and i will certainly not post all the possible cheats, abuses and bugs that can be used.
its not just that the contest is totally imbalanced but that its score doesnt represent the land at all if even the opponent can pick up its torch.

so yes as long as the competition will stay like this i will completely ignore it. normally i never do something like this but TC got me to a point were i simply dont care about anything anymore. and no i wont carry a torch for the sake of my land! why? because i as king of MB could just as well carry the torch of necro and score for necro. does that make me necro citizen or necro supporter now or represent the strenght of necrovion?

[Observer]

Let me correct you on one part: With torch anyone can enter LR back entrance. However, MB has 1 full step inside friendly territory whereas LR has... All the way from Ravenhold to LR hidden exit (on the wrong side of midnight to count them).

Having said that, let's get back to the TC that has just ended: It's been tried, I've played over 24 hours out of 49. In that time no more then 5 kills have been scored inside Winds that I know off. It took 3 characters who are, from a combat point of view, amongst the top 10 or so. It's simply impossible to defend Winds sanctuary that way for 49 hours, there's both too few characters and a [i]huge[/i] disadvantage with heresy lane already being part of the MDA lands.

While undefended, the efforts made at attacking have been negated, I think at least 40 kills have been scored, at that rate there's just no way to score up to that. I'm yet unsure about how many negative points MB has racked up this month but unless we experience a sudden growth of over 300% in active, strong members in the lands of MB and UG(amongst which several in opposite time-zones from server). I'm afraid the strategic location of Winds is just plainly undefendable.

Until this changes, I see no point in picking up a torch for MB. Perhaps an UG one as to retaliate against those who seemingly enjoy exploiting the location of MB's capitol.

~Observer

[Kamisha]

The biggest fight is that between MB and LR considering the fact that they are both the most accessable and populated lands. we can leave the MD archives out and the underground is also outed due to how few people actually fight for them.

[Observer]

Uhhh... If there's any land underpopulated it's MD, there have been a whopping total of 3 MB characters active in this TC. 1 of which only for an hour or 2 (in TC that is) and another... Well, I don't know how much handy did to be honest as she's American and I sleep at that time

Besides that: MDA doesn't actually have a capitol (and no torch) but the grounds being MDA means MB alliance members still lose all their AP but one if they set foot on it.

Hope this clarifies,

~Obs

[Firsanthalas]

Well here is the way that I see it.
I agree with Lifeline that the Torch competition is unfair. First up, some lands like golemus are further away as Lifeline has said. Granted they may have to carry a torch further, but from other land's point of view every other land is probably easier to score against, so its less likely for them to have to worry about conceding scores.
Secondly, defence. MB and Loreroot in particular have two access points into them. Necrovion and underground have but one. Granted golemus is accessible by two, but again there is the distance factor and one is the maze, which also requires going through other lands like MB and the archives. Underground also falls under this category as its inside MB. MB is easily the worst placed land in this and after that its probably Loreroot and Underground.

My next gripe is more personal. Loreroot has recently come under attack for cheating. Whatever about the second and most recent instance, the first time we were accused of cheating for taking up torches in places like MB for Loreroot carriers to take. Now its less than noble and to be quite frank its an exploit. But here is the thing. With perhaps the exception of MB, I am pretty sure (I know for a fact) that other lands have and do use this 'tactic'. I didn't hear them get accused of cheating. In fact I would go so far as to say that any form of cheating that Loreroot has been accused of has also been committed by other lands at some point. And again, didn't hear much about that either.
Actually it seems to me that certain people seem to get a pat on the back when they exploit things or people. Yet when others decide to follow their example they get jumped on. If you don’t participate then you seem to just leave yourself at a disadvantage. In short, it seems that people seem to get rewarded (or at least gain the benefits) for exploiting things until they are boxed off and can no longer be used.
I have also had complaints from people that they have been harassed and threatened by certain individuals.
Now, the big thing for me is that I don't see this as right or necessary. I would like to think that I'm a reasonable person and I'm willing to listen to people. I did not tell anyone to cheat and I did not know it was happening. But I will state here quite clearly that I do not agree with it and would ask anyone engaged in such practices to stop.
However, don't dare point fingers at Loreroot, or indeed any other land singularly and make accusations, when not tackling or acknowledging that it is going on elsewhere. I will not stand idly by while citizens of my land are the subject of personal attacks, threats and in my opinion, bullying. I do not understand why people cannot come to me and at least attempt to discuss this or any other situation before taking it upon themselves to sort it out. I find it unreasonable and I find the singular pointing at Loreroot to be unreasonable too.
Its just back to the good old fashioned blame game and not being in any way constructive or helpful.

The Torch competition is flawed and so are those people that participate (if you happen to be perfect do let me know, because I'd be interested to know how and why that is) and therefore there are inevitably going to be problems. Screaming at people, calling people names and harassing them is not actually going to fix anything. My suggestion would be that people discuss the matter and agree on what is and is not allowed. There is way too much emphasis it seems on game mechanics in MD. There seems to be this overriding belief that because its possible to do something that its allowed. Personally I don't see why this is or has to be so. I mean in a game of football I could walk out and shoot all eleven opposing players, stick the ball in the back of the opposing team's goal and say that I had just won by a goal to nil. Oddly enough I have not heard or seen that happen (its an extreme example, there is no need to decide to point out that it is against the rules of football (although I'd wager there is nothing in the rulebook about shooting all the opposing team in the kneecaps) ).

One suggestion that I would have is to at least move the torch locations and also the scoring points to more equal points. I had thought of something like a pole at each land gate. That way new people could pick up torches for lands that they cannot actually enter. But this leaves problems for places like underground. Although in all honesty, short of constructing an actual 'arena' I'm not sure how that would work much better than the current setup.
Another option I can think of is to allow citizens of each land access to the relevant land so that they can actually pick up the torch from there. Perhaps this could only last for the torch contest duration? Perhaps even go further again and bar access to lands you are not a citizen of unless you carry a torch. This last suggestion though may cause problems with quests and generally just annoy people.

[Orlando Gardiner]

the only possibilities that I can come up with for this problems are as following:

for the exploiting and carrying torches of different lands.., well as said already before, only citizens should be capeable of getting their own torch.

everyone should have acces to their own land, so they can pick up their own torch(probably inplented when citizenship is inplented)

and about the torch competition, I guess that the maze should be closed for torch, as for the back entrance of loreroot. no acces(should really look this word up you know) trough that portal, so everyone has just one single portal to protect.

the last but not least problem, is the distance. I can think of only one thing.., that not the capitol should be the place to go. some places have to far to go, so it should be changed. like GG and Necro should have their 'torch drop of point, got closer to the gate, so it will still be an even long walk for everyone.

on the other side, the downside would be: that you would have a shorter walk in no mans land towards MB and longer in mb than those lands, but I have not seen the depths of those issues yet. probably land bonusses and stuff would still get disadvantes to one or another, so I guess there should be looked more at this.

[Observer]

[quote]Secondly, defence. MB and Loreroot in particular have two access points into them. Necrovion and underground have but one. Granted golemus is accessible by two, but again there is the distance factor and one is the maze, which also requires going through other lands like MB and the archives. Underground also falls under this category as its inside MB. MB is easily the worst placed land in this and after that its probably Loreroot and Underground.[/quote]

Actually UG is one of the best positioned lands, it's 13 steps from the GoE, 10 of which have an UG land affiliation (which is very important) and this entire path is 1 road only. LR has 4 scenes with LR land affiliation, before the path splits (seen from Ravenhold). This isn't ideal, but it's manageable to defend with just one character and it's a long way from anywhere (including MB which is 14, of which only 1 MB affiliated and 15 from GoE, with added advantage of 35 AP cost at maple road). Necrovion is actually the worst situated land after MB with only 12 steps between GoE and it's capitol.

~Obs

PS: Perfect people don't gloat.
PPS: I take no responsibility for the accuracy of the numbers above, they might be one off or so...

EDIT: Only viable solution I can see is closing LR hidden exit to all those who hold a torch and add some full AP loss scenes in MB as it's only 7 scenes from GoE

Edited January 18, 2010 by Observer

[Chewett]

[quote name='Firsanthalas' date='18 January 2010 - 11:21 AM' timestamp='1263813675' post='52951']
Secondly, defence. MB and Loreroot in particular have two access points into them.
[/quote]

Actually, MB always has two access points into it. Wheras LR only has one unless you have the wp abililty, which makes MB the worst positioned land in regards to movement and other statistics.

[Firsanthalas]

I thought that you can use the back entrance once you have a torch?
Regardless, MB is in the worst position. You won't hear any arguments from me on that point. In an odd way you pretty much have a land within your land (underground) and there is no gate between the two (at least nothing that uses more than one ap).

[Nimrodel]

[quote name='Chewett' date='18 January 2010 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1263835502' post='52971']
Actually, MB always has two access points into it. Wheras LR only has one unless you have the wp abililty, which makes MB the worst positioned land in regards to movement and other statistics.
[/quote]

Loreroot back entrance opens up when you are carrying a torch. You don't need a wishpoint. Loreroot has two entrances for a Torch carrier. It is equally vulnerable.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Esmerelda' date='18 January 2010 - 06:25 PM' timestamp='1263839156' post='52979']
Loreroot back entrance opens up when you are carrying a torch. You don't need a wishpoint. Loreroot has two entrances for a Torch carrier. It is equally vulnerable.
[/quote]

ha! what a noob, ofc it is...

thanks Esmerelda for point out my lack of knowledge, oweing to the fact of actually having the wp access.

[Jester]

[quote name='Esmerelda' date='18 January 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1263839156' post='52979']
Loreroot back entrance opens up when you are carrying a torch. You don't need a wishpoint. Loreroot has two entrances for a Torch carrier. It is equally vulnerable.
[/quote]

Its not at all equally vulnerable. MB has only one screen on its land between it and MDA, whereas LR has enough to make it so that someone could be stopped relatively easily even if they came from the back entrance. LR is still more vulnerable then any land except MB, but MB got by far the worst deal.

[Chewett]

So, now with murs most recent change, its worse

GG cant be hit at all now basicly. Since once you have hit them once, you are now stuck OR unless you have the papers (which only work at once a week!) and these papers are given to GG people...

So, even if you can get the papers, you can only give them two torches before you need you get stuck.

Now this is super unfair... If it wasnt unfair enough...

[dst]

Incorrect: once you score you're teleported to your original capital.And if you're dead at sharp hour to GOE.


EDIT:clarifications

Edited January 19, 2010 by dst

[Chewett]

ha!

im going to stop posting here, showing that i know nothing about HC

[dst]

It's TC Chewy not HC )

[Jubaris]

hehehe
well anyway that mostly prevents farming GG

will something similar be done with other lands, or few rules will change about participants?

[stormrunner]

it is strange that I'm the one who is going to say this, more so when I agree with your point but.... are you all newbies this week, contests in md have never been fair, in fact they have always been outright unfair. and why did it take so long for this to pop up I would think since skilled in md at times seems like who can find a flaw and abuse it the most. it would have happened a long time ago. so please don't whine it is annoying

p.s. it may take a while for me to reply but please bring the comment on, I am bored this week and have a point to make

[Chewett]

[quote name='stormrunner' date='19 January 2010 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1263932565' post='53067']
it is strange that I'm the one who is going to say this, more so when I agree with your point but.... are you all newbies this week, contests in md have never been fair, in fact they have always been outright unfair. and why did it take so long for this to pop up I would think since skilled in md at times seems like who can find a flaw and abuse it the most. it would have happened a long time ago. so please don't whine it is annoying

p.s. it may take a while for me to reply but please bring the comment on, I am bored this week and have a point to make
[/quote]

Heh, the age old adage, You are ofc perfectly correct Stormrunner, But it seems that This particular unfairness has caused a lot of problems, causing entire lands to become "evil" and enemies, Personally i think that this is more of a problem than of a couple of points. Since MD is nothing without the people within it.

[stormrunner]

true md is nothing without the people, but then again truthful this only affects a few a important few but still only a few how many accounts are with major ties to a land compared to the number not? and I don't mean just in a alliance I mean really tied to a land


p.s. lands turning evil? about time things may get interesting again

p.p.s. another old adage, enemies make you stronger

[Peace]

Turning lands into enemies? I do not agree with that. All lands are enemies ever since the beginning of time in MD, am I wrong? Torches is just a contest only instead of attacking a player for his heads, it shows that you attack a land instead.

And honestly... why do people take it so personally sometimes, I do not get it. I have to admit that in the past I took it personally against a specific land but that does not say that I will start a war on that land because of torches.

In love and war, they say, everything is allowed. Just learn to enjoy the most you can from it.Just like Head Contest, it is all about strategy and tactics. And of course fun!

My land has been a target for many, yet I never complained in public about it. I deal with it by planning on just how I will 'revenge' this. We may not have as many people as the other lands do, or really strong fighters like the Underground or the Knights of Bell but that does not stop me or my people from trying.

P.S. Some have contacted me and complained as to why I chose their land to score. I do not have a contract that says do not attack those or those but instead attack the others. We all attack those who are more convinient to us, right? Do not take the attacks as a personal attack. At least... not from me.

P.S. This is my rant about Torches.