I know that either way it is a scam...however I want to see the messages first. Because depending on how words are twisted, then for example Granos never fully agreed to the deal, and JacoAnd gave them to him..stupid of himself, but without a deal.

That's depending on how the messages were, and so I want to see them first before judging.

That is still pretty much the same thing Shadow. JacoAnd expressed a clear intention to sell the items and therefore had an obvious right to expect anyone expressing an interest to be willing to buy. Semantics don't really come into it and again read my post with regard to native English speakers and minors.

Being a villain has tangible consequences on the victim, whereas the victim has no way to inflict a counter attack (yet)

[quote name='Granos' date='25 February 2010 - 05:36 AM' timestamp='1267068987' post='55157']
Touching words, but it was nothing more than pure deceit, although through word play there is a loop hole but I would rather see what there is to suffer.

Do your worst.
[/quote]


So this "villainy" only takes place because you can't be punished for it?
There is a glaring difference between roleplaying theft and actual stealing when the victim can't react appropriatly, and where the actual punishment that can be meted out, outweighs the severity of the crime. I am certain you are aware of the implications of your actions.

[quote name='Rendril' date='25 February 2010 - 11:31 AM' timestamp='1267097482' post='55181']
Being a villain has tangible consequences on the victim, whereas the victim has no way to inflict a counter attack (yet)




So this "villainy" only takes place because you can't be punished for it?
There is a glaring difference between roleplaying theft and actual stealing when the victim can't react appropriatly, and where the actual punishment that can be meted out, outweighs the severity of the crime. I am certain you are aware of the implications of your actions.
[/quote]


I don't really see the problem, if he is a role play thief.., than act as if the punishment is for roel play to! I mean, criminals get punished everywhere.., so why not in md?

I copied the messasges here...
then try to find the loophole...
this is from the forum first...

(Granos)
Aged GG Drachorn 400+ age

for the papers

Keep this quiet

-Granos

(me)
Any tokens??

(Granos)
none, and my mistake I dont have that one anymore, this one is 251 though if you are interested..

(me)
I am very interested...
I dont like tokens so am glad there wasnt any...
If you want we can trade now (this is what I consider a offer I cannot refuse... )

(granos)
ok come to the Angien shrine so you can verify the transfer sorry about the name

(me)
The name?? (On my way)

(then I walked to the angien shrine and messages was given in game pm)
(Granos)
Trade
Ill send you part of the code, and you can verify in the tainted angien tester the creature, but ill give you the rest of the code after I have the item given the vaule of drachorns, is that acceptable?

-Granos

(Me)
That is acceptable...

(Granos)
RE:RE:Trade
CTC469959MUIMZ79

(me)
XD Everything you have said seems to be in order, (Exept the fact that I dont know if its a drachorn... xD, I dont know a drachorns Creature number) But I will send the papers now...

(Granos)
RE:RE:RE:RE:Trade
You can tell by the vitality, and the fact its level 5

(me, not sure he actually read this due to it being in outgoing messages but I believe you can du that even after reading it, I may be wrong)
Hehe... the papers are sent...

(Now he just desapeared and ignored me)

(I dont know if this has any relevance but these are my messages after I traded it)
(me on forum)
I really hope there is a reason you just desapeared without giving me the ctc.

(Me on forum again)
If by some reason I havent gotten the ctc of a GG Drach tommorrow I will not keep it quiet.
Your way of going offline just the moment I gave you the papers seem to good to be a coinsidence.
If you changed your mind please write so and I will take it back. no hard feelings, but if you tried to cheat me I will take other actions. (Not that I want to)

(me on forum for the last time)
Okey I dont know if its on purpose or not, but it seems like you are online, and doing other things on the forum.
So I am sorry to say it but I will take this as you have cheated me.
So unless you answer quikly I wil do everything I can to get my papers back, and you will not remain anonymous

(message to him in game was the same after the part-trade (in outgoing also))
The Drach
If by some reason I havent gotten the ctc of a GG Drach tommorrow I will not keep it quiet.
Your way of going offline just the moment I gave you the papers seem to good to be a coinsidence.
If you changed your mind please write so and I will take it back. no hard feelings, but if you tried to cheat me I will take other actions. (Not that I want to)



You could say that its stupid of me that I have been here over 300 days and didnt know that I couldnt trust him, but I am not the most active all the time. Think about how many of you actually have had conversation with me that was not trade related, I am pretty sure i can be countet on one maybe two hands.
So in that sense I am still new in the game.
Mosly because I didnt even talk in chat the first 150 days or so. But I sill enjoy the game playing it at my speed, and having the conversations I wanna have. (thats what I really like in this game)

Edited February 25, 201016 yr by JacoAnd

[quote name='Orlando Gardiner' date='25 February 2010 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1267097915' post='55184']
I don't really see the problem, if he is a role play thief.., than act as if the punishment is for roel play to! I mean, criminals get punished everywhere.., so why not in md?
[/quote]

If he [b]role played[/b] the theft then yes, you are correct that a role play punishment is in order.
However, the item(which performs a tangible effect) was actaully taken(once again, an action that affects the player account), how can a mere role play(an action that does not alter the account through game mechanics) punishment be suitable?

[quote name='JacoAnd' date='25 February 2010 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1267097915' post='55184']
(then I walked to the angien shrine and messages was given in game pm)
[/quote]

It looks to me like you are saying that the discussion up until this message was done on the forum, is this the case? The rules clearly state that the forum is not for role play.

[quote name='Rendril' date='25 February 2010 - 01:11 PM' timestamp='1267099916' post='55187']
It looks to me like you are saying that the discussion up until this message was done on the forum, is this the case? The rules clearly state that the forum is not for role play.
[/quote]

Yes all the messages until that was done on the forum.

Edited February 25, 201016 yr by JacoAnd

OK after reading through all the posts i may as well have my say.

First (not that i am agreeing with what was done) no rules were broken.
Mur did say you trade at your own risk. it is up to you to trust the one you
trade with.

Now in saying that i don't agree with what has been done and have to admit i may
have also stepped into the scam myself. As a player Granos is a fine player. He plays his
character very well and is one of the few proper RP players in the realm.

I think this trade in its self just got a little greedy and if you were just after a Drac
why not just ask for that in the trade?

No the whole matter is going to become a bigger issue.
as one can see it come down to a feeling of theft and well we all have our opinions on that.
This is a hard area to call on. As i said no rules were broken in this trade. yes a scam was done
but we were all warned this could happen and so now Granos is the first i know of the do this.

To be honest i would have expected the pirates to do this first but hey

Now the main issue is this since he scam was done is it acceptable to let it continue
as we all know once it is done the first time many more will follow as no punishment is brought forth.
but how can there be one since no rule was broken?
This will only make trading item harder as no person will trust each other to trade. So in essence not only
does this cause a breakdown of a community but it also cause what little trading to stop and make life harder to
get items and this in turn will just kill quests and will kill the trading system.

To be honest this matter may not get resolved and we will all complain about the issue and mark it as the event
that ruins trading within MD and kills what little trust that is in the game.

That is my little say on the matter.
Hope i am wrong in much of what i say but experience tells me differ

honestly I just wanted enough to be able to buy a drach, And I never expected to be offered one.
and I was willing to sell it for whatever it came out on today even if it was one gold peice.

alright, i am lazy to read ALL, bottom line is this? (please confirm)

JacoAnd and Granos agreed to a trade, then Jaco sent his items but granos vanished with his. Granos is refusing to finsih his end of the deal but keeps Jacos item. Current excuse is that granos role might allow him that. Jaco feels robbed.

This looks to me as a scam. Solution is written in newslog ages ago, i won't say what it is since you all should learn to read long announcements and not ignore them, as i do with long topics

Proof required: agreement of trade, atempts to communicate, reasons that can justify a theft, others as you think appropriate. State desired outcome.
Action required: read the damn newslog.

In md items are so easy to steal, and i am not planning to make them anyway harder. Because they are so easy to steal the solution to such fraud will be exemplary, but also allow stealing. In reality you CAN steal if you want to, you can scam people. Of course there is a risk associated with it, and what prevents you from doing it is your own moral values or the fear of the consequences. In MD will be the same. you could try it, and get away with it, or get cought and be given as an example. What decides if you get cought or not? i don't know, but i know i wont be able to handle all fraud cases.


Dont mistake my intervention with "justice", justice is a constant rule/law that gets applied. In MD we have no rules against daylight robbery. This is just the pressure i add to such actions so you wont be so tempted anymore to grab things left in the open so to say...lightning might strike you by mistake

ha, i was waiting for something like this for some time I always find entertaining ways to lose my time in the wrong direction instead of doing productive things.

lol I agree. Trading is a shady deal, there are a known group of people to trade with, and a known group not to trade with. Becoming a good trader is learning the groups and learning how to deal with them. Just becuase, say Granos, will scam you if you can, doesn't mean you have to let him.

There are always ways to work around things if you use your mind and think things through. Even the most devious person can make a fair trade if you make sure its a fair trade. On top of the fact that a drach for papers is a rip off anyway, I think that its a good lesson learned and chalk it up to experience in the trading field.

[quote]

[2009-05-14 00:53:50 - Alpha 8]
The Judge
I am inagurating a COURT. At first it will be run by me, Muratus del Mur, as one judge to decide and take action. As this court will evolve and i will understand more of what judging type the realm needs it will be passed on to others to manage or will be adapted to fit the realm needs. My first rules for this court are these:


1) Trials can be initiated only by people directly involved in the situation that are suitable to suffer the decision of the trial.
2) Both sides will be heared both in private sessions and public ones the same number of times. Contacting me outside the decided session times is not allowed.
3) Each trial should have in its start a very clear concept of what it is disputed or demanded and what the requests of each side are.
4) Secret trials are not an option for now but could be an option if the discussed matters are of secret nature. I will be the one to decide that.
5) I can deny the start of a trial if i consider that there might by other ways to solve the issue
6) Trials involving groups of people should have same number of participants on both sides. In the situation as a single person accuses a group of people such as a organization, that person will have to get on its side more witnesses or people supporting his cause. This obviously gives more power to groups of people over single individuals because the punishments affecting groups are more important.
7) Proof and arguments should be given only when asked, any proof comming outside the time when its asked will be ignored.
8) The decisions of the trials are permanent and effective immediatly, both side must agree in the beginning of the trial that they will obey any decision resulting from the trial regardless how unfair they will consider it at the end.
9) Refusing to obey trial decisions will result in severe punishments

What types of things can be brought to trial?
From personal argues between players to more important situations. Creature theft, abuse, rule breaking, anything. Only important issues will be allowed to get to trial because my time is limited. At each trial i can select a group of people to vote, the selection will be as neutral as i can and i will not listen to your suggestions for the jury. I will try to select each time different people so that there wont be a "jury" profession.

I am making this to bring order not to scare or punish any of you, hopefuly this will turn into a flexible moderation system and not into an inquisition. My words here and now should remain as a guidence of what this was ment to be for later times when power will be tempting for the future judges. Where is power there is corruption.
[/quote]

I would like to initiate a trial

There is robbery, stealing and cheating. Robbery is when you take by force, it keeps your honor unless the gun you use its to big for you. Stealing is worse but not the worse thing you could do. Stealing keeps your honor only if you are doing it professionaly and you raise it to a state of art. Cheating is the worse you could do, it involves getting under the skin of someone, gain his trust, then fuck him, without even the reason of revenge.

I take this as granos side on this matter:
http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/6568-conned-by-granos/page__view__findpost__p__55157

His reputation was big part of the deal, because i doubt Jaco would send his item first to a new player that promises a drach for them. Giving out that partial ctc as proof, clears jaco of the "stupid greed" reason because he had proof granos has the drach to trade. There is nothing more he could have done to ensure a fair trade.

I am waiting for a reaction from granos and a confirmation of official pursuit of this matter from jaco confirming he wishes to escalate this, since i never got a complain about it (unless its lost in my endless pms).

UPDATE: trial initiated. result will be posted here and in game.

Edited February 25, 201016 yr by Muratus del Mur
trial

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' date='25 February 2010 - 02:47 PM' timestamp='1267105649' post='55200']
There is robbery, stealing and cheating. Robbery is when you take by force, it keeps your honor unless the gun you use its to big for you. Stealing is worse but not the worse thing you could do. Stealing keeps your honor only if you are doing it professionaly and you raise it to a state of art. Cheating is the worse you could do, it involves getting under the skin of someone, gain his trust, then fuck him, without even the reason of revenge.

I take this as granos side on this matter:
http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/6568-conned-by-granos/page__view__findpost__p__55157

His reputation was big part of the deal, because i doubt Jaco would send his item first to a new player that promises a drach for them. Giving out that partial ctc as proof, clears jaco of the "stupid greed" reason because he had proof granos has the drach to trade. There is nothing more he could have done to ensure a fair trade.

I am waiting for a reaction from granos and a confirmation of official pursuit of this matter from jaco confirming he wishes to escalate this, since i never got a complain about it (unless its lost in my endless pms).

UPDATE: trial initiated. result will be posted here and in game.
[/quote]

I didnt send you a PM (Got advise to bring it up in forum from a LHO) So you dont have to look.

Edit: I will be waiting for any iformation on the start and precisly how this trial is put to life.
If I need to take any other actions please let me know.

Edited February 25, 201016 yr by JacoAnd

Trial wont be with a jury, he admited his deed and i can decide his punishment on my own.
However i need Granos final statement on this. If this statement is not comming, I will consider the above quoted as his answer. His reply might make a big difference to the action taken to conclude this trial.

A public page of the trial results will be made available in the menu. Unfortunatly with so much proof and so much discussed, there isnt much interactivity to this trial, its more of a decision i have to take regarding what happens to granos.

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' date='25 February 2010 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1267108221' post='55204']
Trial wont be with a jury, he admited his deed and i can decide his punishment on my own.
However i need Granos final statement on this. If this statement is not comming, I will consider the above quoted as his answer. His reply might make a big difference to the action taken to conclude this trial.

A public page of the trial results will be made available in the menu. Unfortunatly with so much proof and so much discussed, there isnt much interactivity to this trial, its more of a decision i have to take regarding what happens to granos.
[/quote]

Okey... Then I will await your decision.

I find this extremely interesting, primarily because I adhere to a more condensed version of sinning.
The only true sin I recognize is the sin of getting caught.
In a realm where indeed, there is no dispute over the existence of an omnipotent and active god, committing to one's crimes, is in my view, either an expression of grand stupidity, or of a grand self destructive sense of malicious flair, usually accompanied with an even greater ego.

Of course, one has to wonder, if surely this omnipotent god exists and surely acts, whether or not his acts are unbalancing, and more specifically, if balance is to be upheld or not.
In other realms with powerfull gods, you also have evil one's. Or realms with gods where the gods do not act.
Stability is often prefered over an equal balance of what is seen as good and evil. But what if stability is not the primary concern?

Basically; will you convict this criminal and halt evil's advance, perhaps even, forever, were it not for the more playful roleplay version of it?
Indeed, will you condemn the heinous crimes of the villain, but thereby inadvertedly also condemn any sort of malicious act in the future? Indeed, condemning the future of villains in all the realm, to become naught but footstools at the pink bar of childhood pranks.
Or, will you let the villain go unpunished and risk the stability of the entire realm, and thereby perhaps deter new souls from even daring to fulfill their grandest potential.

Naturally, this is only 1 case, and let it be obvious that the latter option would be more severe than the first one.
However, I have one suggestion to make.

In order to maintain balance and stability, perhaps it would be in everyone's best interest to grant the victim... temporary means of retribution.

However, what fascinates me the most, is the possibility that the Kings and Queens have with this.
Were the god to instill the power to punish, AND, to instigate into the non-existant courts of justices or it's possible antithesis, like thieves guilds and other nefarious organizations, then I am certain, that justice and villainy will both thrive.

Of course, just a suggestion.

[quote name='JacoAnd' date='25 February 2010 - 02:42 PM' timestamp='1267108975' post='55205']
Okey... Then I will await your decision.
[/quote]
In the meantime, wanna do a trade Jaco??
(I am kidding of course.....)

[color="#0000FF"]I would ask you to refrain from this in future, it's quite an useless post. In a serious topic.[/color]

Edited February 25, 201016 yr by Shadowseeker

As regards Kings MB, I see a few issues.
Firstly not everyone is a citizen of a land and not every land has a king. Therefore, if you happen to have no king, your kind of stuck.
Secondly, and I don't want to make this sound like a cop out, but the role of king probably shouldn't go beyond the game itself. And many crimes do. There is also the issue of different morale standards and attitude. I could be much more lenient or indeed malevolent than another king.
There is also the possible situation of two parties from two different lands with moanarchs at odds. Who would hold jurisdiction then? Could the party that is not a citizen of the judge get a fair outcome?

That being said a dispute between two citizens of one land, could be judged by the relevent king and that could be intersting indeed.

Edited February 25, 201016 yr by Firsanthalas

[quote name='Firsanthalas' date='25 February 2010 - 06:16 PM' timestamp='1267139801' post='55245']
As regards Kings MB, I see a few issues.
Firstly not everyone is a citizen of a land and not every land has a king. Therefore, if you happen to have no king, your kind of stuck.
Secondly, and I don't want to make this sound like a cop out, but the role of king probably shouldn't go beyond the game itself. And many crimes do. There is also the issue of different morale standards and attitude. I could be much more lenient or indeed malevolent than another king.
There is also the possible situation of two parties from two different lands with moanarchs at odds. Who would hold jurisdiction then? Could the party that is not a citizen of the judge get a fair outcome?

That being said a dispute between two citizens of one land, could be judged by the relevent king and that could be intersting indeed.
[/quote]

Given that it took place in Marind Bell such a King would be Lifeline as he is neutral party in such a matter and it happened within his lands and he has no stakes in such items as would someone from GG would. But this is merely my opinion, but I like the idea non the less.

[quote name='Granos' date='26 February 2010 - 12:27 AM' timestamp='1267140471' post='55246']
Given that it took place in Marind Bell such a King would be Lifeline as he is neutral party in such a matter and it happened within his lands and he has no stakes in such items as would someone from GG would. But this is merely my opinion, but I like the idea non the less.
[/quote]

I dont think any player can actually ever be completely neutral, the only one who in my eyes could be neutral is Mur, he has nothing to get (He has everything if he wants to), the only thing he gets out of things like his is apperently amusement.

[quote name='Pipstickz' date='26 February 2010 - 01:28 AM' timestamp='1267144123' post='55250']
Mur has personal relationships too, you know >>
[/quote]

Hehe
Yeah but not in the same way as a player, he would be very hard to (I dont remember the word on english) to just hand over a drach under the table to.
He might not be completely neutral but he is the closest.
Not saying that others wouldnt be, but there has to appear doubt at some point if people disagree with the decision, and then the trust in the way the court should work disapears.
But again thats my opinion, you are free to have one yourself.

Edited February 26, 201016 yr by Chewett

Like Jaco said, noone can really be neutral and Mur is the closest that one can get.

Since we are all MD players, we all have no choice but to believe that he will instill justice as he sees fit.

I know there are some who feels that he doesnt have all players welfare at heart, or that he is biased by his own personal relationships, but we have to remind ourselves that we still have a personal choice, and that is the choice to stop playing if you feel injustice has been done upon you.

Whether it is Mur, Kings or Queens who are meting out justice, there will always be a voice in the realm who is not of the same opinion and feels that biasness came into play.

No sentence can make everyone happy, there will always be sympathisers for the criminals, justifications for an evil act, a bond that blinds one to the act of cruelness.

Justice is different for different perceptions of different individuals.

Since (or if) Granos perpetrated the crime in the name of roleplay, I would like to see the issue resolved by players or governing bodies in game (rather than by Mur). If Granos is not compliant with the rules of roleplay, then it should be deemed a scam and therefore punishable beyond the scope of game mechanics. It seems to me, through my reading of this thread, that Granos has consciously sparked debate and is willing to accept its consequences, perhaps in response to the recent threads claiming that MD is boring or lacking in mystery and intrigue. The thrill of resolving this issue as a community of players should far outweigh the loss of pass Papers or reputation, VP, XP, or whatever else Granos has at stake. Since the realm has kings, perhaps the kings should have dungeons?

I've been unable to log in for quite some time now, so it is possible that players are rallying on their respective sides of the issue in order to roleplay this interesting turn of events, but if this thread is the only place its being discussed, shame on all of you, and Jaco more so than the rest.

Edited February 26, 201016 yr by Malaikat Maut

I see the situation like this..because there are no precendents to the kind of punishments the court will apply, i will be deciding them for a while. Later when some of the crimes will be routine, like the item stealing, someone else can apply similar punishments, probably the King will do that.

I think the word you were looking for is "bribe", no that won't work on me, with ingame or rl things. Actualy trying such a thing, or even mentioning that "you are a paying member" will probably generate the exactly opposite reaction from what you want.

I give some people more understanding than to others, especialy to rl friends/relatives because i believe i know more about them than a particular event tells me, but sometimes i am wrong. Baning shoeps for example was hard decision, yet following decisions of same kind will be easier and easier. I don't say my judgement is fair in the law meaning of the word, but i do hope my decisions are fair in the common sense meaning. For example, law would say innocent until proven guilty, but criminals go away even if everybody knows they are guilty. MD court will consider also intuitive proof. Also, every time one of the accused persons will say they are not guilty, i will try to investigate deeper and deeper (and you would be surprised to see what resources md gives me)..but..if i get proof that you lied me, your punishment will be ten fold.
For example, you say you didnt stole that item, fine, i go investigate, i digg up the logs, they don't lie. You then say logs lie, FINE, i digg up other data, even check backups to see if latest logs are buged or something. Each time you put me search deeper for proof, your possible punishment will increase if i found out you were bluffing.

If you do not trust me as a judge, respect me as a ruler, because in the end, you have no other choice, and to be exist an other choice later there should be a fixed point of reference. If not me, who? I am not trying to confort my ego by ruling the first MD court, I am trying to act as an example and define what the court means. Its a necessary role and so far i don't think anyone else should do it, because anyone else would have his punishment possibilities limited, but i have no limit, i can imprison you regardless of your land. There is no "Mur" you can run to and complain if the decision is taken directly by me as a judge, so the word of the court is final and strong. This is the authority a court in MD needs, and if not goverened by me there will be many more voiced to complain about it.

[quote name='Rendril' date='25 February 2010 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1267099916' post='55187']
If he [b]role played[/b] the theft then yes, you are correct that a role play punishment is in order.
However, the item(which performs a tangible effect) was actaully taken(once again, an action that affects the player account), how can a mere role play(an action that does not alter the account through game mechanics) punishment be suitable?

[b]I just mean, people keep on saying: he is a theft as roel play, so there is no reason to be mad, you could have known. well, our ways are also to get him punished( love to have the court here finally!). these give punishment, which have also effect in MD, that means that they fit in in the role playing of md. So I don't see the problem of punishing or not, he should always:)(even if it was his role). that's what I meant[/b]

It looks to me like you are saying that the discussion up until this message was done on the forum, is this the case? The rules clearly state that the forum is not for role play.
[/quote]