About Wps And The Codes

[Shadowseeker]

A lot of quests suddenly seem to have a big restriction, like: Be a citizen of land X and you can win a WP! I rarely see any WP quests which don't include any kind of restriction like that.

So why don't you just go ahead and close border, so everyone lives within isolated countries? I don't like the way the rewarding went, and so I have a proposition. The logs of WP should show that as well, that many WP only go to people in the same land, and not to everyone else anymore like they used to.

Each of your quests usually has a point reward system, or a set number of clickies.

Now my suggestion is: The ones belong to the land whose king is donating the WP get a chance to have a better score, however only slightly.

Say you have 11 clickies, then the people from that land can do 9 or 10 clickes (depending on the q writer here) to finish. But they cannot choose which they want to abandon, it's predetermined, AND should not be the hardest..easy to medium perhaps.

Or if you work with a maximum score, they get a slight rating score which only comes to use if they are tied with someone else (+2 on a max score with 30, for example, but you ought to publish the logs of your ratings as well), or a chance to get more points: Like, you have 10 items which give 2 points each, you then add one item which can give another 2 points. And that item can be reused for every land which does donate WP to make it possible to get more points. However that clickies shouldn't contain stuff like:

"Who is your king" but instead real questions, medium or hard.

What do you all think?

Giving quests out which reward those who solve it, regardless of any kind of restriction (also called discrimination)..and not starting off heavily by giving people a sure win chance even if they come in last, or a heavy bonus without having done anything. Let everyone work, and people still have a good competition.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Shadowseeker

[phantasm]

what about RP and progression quests? A lot of those don't involve clickies as much as people. The main issue is that people who don't belong to lands can't get WP codes to hand out for their quests. It leaves them begging for WP codes off of Kings/Queens, or bartering favors and such for them. I think that's why the growth of Land Only Quests have come up. People are given WP codes by Kings/Queens and then are asked to try and make them most productive for their own citizens. There is not outside perspective so to speak. My opinion anyway.

[Firsanthalas]

Couple of points here.
First up, having quests only open to citizens of a land is not a bad thing imo. It gives a purpose and added reward to citizenship. Although, if all quests started to go that way it would be bad.
Personally I don't and won't restrict ALL my quests to LR only people, BUT I will have SOME. (My current and previous quest are and were open to people beyond LR. Infact my last one was targeted at the lands with no kings)
Secondly, even though WPs may only be given to quest creators from a particular land, they are often open to be won by any citizen.
Thirdly, I recently ran a quest that would give quest creators a chance to gain WPs to sponsor their quest. Yes there was a clause, but there were still WPs on offer that could go to people from any land. The uptake of the quest was exceptionally poor. Only about 6 people bothered to enter and at least one person didn't follow the very simple instructions and another submitted a quest that was only pending approval from other sources.

Its my personal opinion that the interest and uptake in quests in general is poor. I suggest that people start doing quests rather than moaning about it.

This may seem harsh, but I purposely set quests that are not overly complicated and involve MD itself, rather than inane running around or mind bending brainteasers, or quests which generally rely on knowledge of a specific field. I'm not saying such quests are bad per say, merely that I try to set things that are different, maybe quirky and don't require you to have a degree in maths, cryptology, science, art, whatever. Its good to have different types of quests that can suit different people.
Bottom line though, I tend to feel people don't really bother with quests much and even when they do enter, the quality is often quite poor imo.

[Shadowseeker]

Well, even if you say so Firs--

Let's assume you make a quest, and out of the people who take part and finish only one is LR, there is a guaranteed WP for him, even if lets say it is a timebased thing and he comes in last, 10th place out of 10? Just because you were funding it? If I remember that was the clause, but that isn't the purpose of the quests, to reward someone based on their choice, no matter how the other did.

I often notice things like: One can only go to a citizen of XXX. You get my point I hope. Then it doesn't turn into a contest of skills anymore, merely of who enters and finishes. Is that still a quest in the original sense, or just a bribed bet, where you bet on horses and suddenly all other racers suddenly collapse before they reach the finish line?

It doesn't even matter whether what category it is, I am just talking about some kind of rating: No matter hwat quest you have, you have to have a ranking in order to determine who is supposed to win what.



As phantasm says, it is an attempt to give their citizens more WP. But how many of those were earned in a competition they won? And..is it truly still a quest if you want to reward 3 people but only 4 enter? It's another form of discrimination in a sense, one that I can even understand: Every king wants their citizens to get something.


But for the quest culture of MD, it is a VERY bad thing, it limits the influx, the amount of quests people can do, and leads to a huge inflation of WP. Are all WP earned that way really the WP they should be? A wishpoint, hard work? I bet if we checked the logs, lots of WP were given out to citizens mainly already, for whatever reason.

[Firsanthalas]

Sorry Shadow but I disagree with you.
As for fairness. Every quest discriminates in some fashion. Any quest that involves a race element (.e. top 3 etc) is discriminatory. It gives people that are around at the time of launch an advantage. People with more time in MD gain an advantage. If you look at the WPs its heavily routed in the hands of a minority of people. I've seen quests that involve art, therefore if you no little about art, you are at a disadvantage. Some quests involve codes. Not everyone is good at code breaking. Everyone is different and has different capabilities and time constraints. There will always be inequity.

I'm sorry, but its my opinion and belief that some people will not do a quest purely on the basis that certain people like dst and yourself are participating.

And I re-iterate my point. I think that having a chance to win a WP because you have chosen to join a land is not a bad thing. IF, it turns out that all lands and quests go like that then I'd agree it should be changed, but currently that is just not the case. And I have also seen people like Cutler ask for WPs in exchange for doing work.

[Kamisha]

I see all kings doing this in fact if I had it my way I would completely eliminate this restriction. Thats why I never ask kings for wish points it just creates unfair advantages and causes my quests to be somewhat manipulated much more than I wish to see them changed.

I don't like to sellout and that's what happens if I ask kings for wishpoints. I actually see this as somewhat of a violation of rules to tell you the truth as wish points are given out for completing quests not for getting an advantage or being part of a land. I understand the reason for it will increase the role play of there land but I just don't think it works.

[Windy]

I think Quests have become too complicated. They are not entertaining enough and do not encourage socialization of the masses. WP have taken the fun out of Quests as well.

I think Quests should encourage creating teams and forcing us to role play more effectively to accomplish a certain goal.

[Firsanthalas]

Actually Kamisha, Mur told us to only give the WPs for quest creation purposes to people from our own lands. The WPs are supposed to be used for the welfare of the land.
Giving them out as has happened with a few kings is a way to give something to others too. And again, there is nothing to stop ye from doing a quest and using the reward for running a quest, rather than for your personal use. And again, I point out that there was little take-up on my quest for WPs. So I think that its a bit rich to complain about it.
Go and do the bloody quests that are out there and stop moaning about it. If you really want to run a quest and just don't have WPs, then ask around. There are ways and means to get them. Also, not every quest needs WPs as rewards you know.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Firsanthalas

[Yrthilian]

OK this is starting to annoy me.

Sorry Shadow but are you trying to stur the pot?

So you have made an accusation that WP's from kings are not given fairly
the ALL kings have done this in quest creation. Hmm please give example
so we can pick at them.

Kamisha not once have you spoke with me in regards to WP's
so your statement is only that a statement with out fact!
For you to presume what you have of ALL kingship people is
just crazy since you never checked or asked ALL kingship people.

Now a bit of FACT

Mur spoke with all the kingship people and what they were and were not allowed to do.
the following is part of what was said as i will not post the full details.


[i]Use these codes to reward capable quest creators, activate part of them for yourself so that you can give wishpoints to those that deserve.
[b]ONLY [/b]use these rewards for people of [b]your land, never for an outsider[/b].
If a player belonging to an other land realy deserves such a reward but his king or queen ignores him, let it be so, [b]its not your business what happens in other lands.
[/b]

[u]You should create your own rules on how you give those out[/u], get people [b]FROM YOUR LAND ONLY[/b] to investigate other people quests and reward them codes, or do it yourself. The codes should remain within the land so to speak.[/i]

Now i may get into trouble for putting that info in here but it just ticks me off when
people assume things and have not even bothered to ask. Shadow you NEVER came to me to ask about
WP Codes or anything relating to them. If you had done so you would know the details above.

The worst thing is someone make a stupid statement and does not back it up.
As you can see it is up to each kingship person to decide there rules and how the code were to be used
we have even broken the rules we were given to try and get a better interest in making and doing quests.

I will also admit i sponsored 1 quest that was for Golemus only and it was not the WP's that made me do this
it was the other pries i was giving out. The i made the quest be Golemus ONLY. As a king i am entitled to do this
as is ANY other quest creator.

What is it you hope to achieve here?
You want to try and make the kingship look bad?

sorry but i am getting more annoyed as i go on so i will stop here

[Firsanthalas]

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that ALL five of the quests on the quest page are open to ANYONE. And two of the quest runners are not aligned to a land with a king.

[Muratus del Mur]

Belonging to a land means you must obey its rule but you also should have benefits. Or even if you don't obey the ruler of that land he still has some power over you. Being without a land makes you in a way independent, this must come with a cost or else why to join a land?

Kings are free to sponsor players without a declared land, but should never sponsor players from other lands. If your king is to lazy or is unreachable for you to ask for a wp code, then its your bad luck. Lands should suffer or flourish depending on their leaders.

There are just a handful of players that are without land but do amazing quests that should be rewarded wp codes. In my opinion, kings should try to get those players on their side.

If i make wp functional only for players with lands, all this "independent" thing will go out in a week without much argue. But because you have an option, some of you stay without citizenship but still want the benefits of one.

At the end it is a personal decision of the king what to do and rewards and reward resources are given only to them to distribute (except items that are random and will remain random).

yrth quoted what i said well and its still valid. Considering the hierarchy, there is nothing above kings , except "gods" but gods are more like guidelines not actual forces to change things. Same here, the king has the power to do it, and they will do it based on what i _suggested_ them to do. This means they can still derail from the rules... risking of course to get struck by lightning if they derail to much

If you are curious why:
Personal decision is a healthy way to avoid monotony and rule breaking. It is the type of flavor i am looking for. A leader is not only a policeman reinforcing the rules, or public spokesman, but they are personalities that change the destiny of their people, in good , or bad. They can be dictators, they can be friendly an open to anything, or worse they can be inactive. I believe the kingship elections elected a very interesting set of leaders for the 4 lands and as i said before, i am willing to risk the stability and future of md, unforseen implications of their actions and decisions, based on the way they will "rule".

[Yrthilian]

I also wanted to point out the WP are from the lands treasury
so to be giving them to non land people is well like
telling the USA to give Ireland its funding.

As Mur has said. There are independent people that do good quests and
i for one agree they do deserve WP's at time and i have been one to sponsor this
and have done so in the past

Edited March 12, 2010 by Yrthilian

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Windy' date='12 March 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1268407007' post='56264']
I think Quests have become too complicated. They are not entertaining enough and do not encourage socialization of the masses. WP have taken the fun out of Quests as well.[/quote]
I remember only two quests that required me to really interact with other players. All the others that I attempted at most required me to send a pm with a pass phrase to get the next set of instructions. With clickies there is a simpler system available to do have the same level of socialization, ie 0. I haven't attempted any quests lately, not enough time for it right now, but I doubt it can be worse than a year ago in this regard.

[quote]I think Quests should encourage creating teams and forcing us to role play more effectively to accomplish a certain goal.[/quote]
These kind of quests are a lot tougher to make. I had high hopes of making a collaborated quest but by the time I got all the necessary people's consent, I myself ran into lack of MD-time and now it's being postponed due to me... I hope they don't mind waiting for me a bit longer. Worse yet, I've heard of several large scale quests being shot down due to conflicts between collaborators. These possibilities make it far more attractive to design and run quests by oneself instead of with a team, which results in smaller and less interactive quests.

@Shadowseeker: I think people should play a quest because they want to have fun, not because it will yield the highest reward. For that reason it shouldn't matter if a reward is specified in advance or not. Or you could include a small print like 'number of wishpoints proportional to number of participants, limited to 5 maximum'. I won't give WP to people who did poorly on a quest, but it might make sense to reserve a different reward, should the numbers be too low.

@Firsanthalas: The thing with favoritism is that people without a land, currently, are never favored based upon land. Skill/knowledge/time based quests all favor different people, regardless of land affiliation. If you have at least some skill/knowledge/time, then you will inevitable have an advantage for certain quests. If the rates of rewards for codebreakers/riddles/races etc are equal, then the system is fair. You cannot say the same about land-only quests, but it is easy to accomodate this: make quests that exclude one land only, eg. if there is unease between land A and land B, certain quests could be open to everyone not a citizen of land B. The neutral people will have more options with those kind than people that are citizens and if you fiddle the math, it should be possible to balance it.

@Yrthillian: you are not the only king, so it is not YOUR rule that is questioned. The rule you are quoting is about WP CODES. The CODES should remain in your land, not the WP. If you are going to use boldface to stress things, please don't make it look like it was intended to have land-only participation. It is officially within the rules, but I highly doubt this was the desired outcome.

[Shadowseeker]

Well, even so, yrth, about what you said, it was in the announce even:

Kings should find their own rules, reasons and methods on how these codes get used. One very important rule is that these codes should not be used "outside the land". If you are a quest creator, you should decide what is your land because you will receive wp reward codes from your King or Queen from now on.

From what i read out of it and how the kings acted, I did understand Mur probably said something like that. Still, even with that said, it's just something I personally don't think should be handled the way it is now. I didn't come to you for WP because I didn't need any.

We have a handful of creators and questers. Now we split them amongst 4 lands, and the next step? MD as of now has, according to my opinion, less active people than before. Less fresh blood, mainly veterans around. Now if we divide it up more, what is left?

If we would have hundred and thousands of players in each land I wouldn't argue now...but imagine a quest, like MasterBs race. How many took part? 7? Even if Mur wanted it like this, I can't help but feel this wasn't the right method to do it, because this way we split the possible quests a person would want to do even more. And Quests have always been part of the culture of MD.

This is just to see what everyone feels like, aside from kings, and eventual people who which to stir trouble.

If you haven't forgotten, this place is also one to discuss. And here I am, mentioning something I would like to discuss.

[Yrthilian]

[quote name='Shadowseeker' date='12 March 2010 - 04:35 PM' timestamp='1268411716' post='56273']
but imagine a quest, like MasterBs race. How many took part? 7? [/quote]

That is the quest i refer to. Master did want t open it to all players.
I said no not for this race as i wanted to reward a Golemus player with a Golemus creature
this was why his race was a Golemus race only and i already new this would limit the number of players
For that particular quest i feel just in how it was handled. The quest WP's that were rewarded was just
additional to the main pries.


Now yes you are entitled to state how you feel I am not one to stop people for saying what is on their mind
but i would like to see it be more constructive rather than just blame. If i picked it up wrong then sorry
but that is how this topic came across.

I know from my point i have always welcomed people to make quests even those out side the realm of Golemus
I even used my own personal WP's to make sure i didn't over step the boundary of what is understood by the
kingship as the base rules.

I will say this though i do apologize if you felt attacked by me in this topic personally it was a reaction
and i normally wait to respond for a later time but i was angered by what i had seen and just make a response.
I am as always open to any one with ideas and suggestions as this is how to move forward and to make the realm
more responsive as a community.

[Aelis]

I hope my question won't be offtopic, I do not think it is, since it is "About Wp Codes":

What about characters that are citizen of a land, but not one of the 4 main lands? Will someday we have someone to ask for WP codes?

My character (Aelis) is a citizen of the Lands of the East, and I would like to ask: are we supposed to have a leader? Or maybe a council or something like that? I know the Tribunal is not fully released, but I am pretty sure I am not the only one with that question in mind.

What about the citizens of MDA and the Underground?

I am not saying I want to see quests like "Archives only" or "Underground only". I am merely asking a question which I believe is part of the subject.


~Aelis

[Firsanthalas]

That is to whole point of citizenship. It allows you to be part of a land without being in an alliance. Therefore you can ask the king of the land you are a citizen of for WPs to run quests.
But right now Eastlands and Underground are neutral and have no king. Perhaps Eastlands will change later on when Mur does more work on it. That is for him to say though. In the meantime, you have the advantage of neutrality and relative independence.
Hope that answers your question Aeils.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Firsanthalas

[Shadowseeker]

What Firs said pretty much sums it up.

You need to convince one of the kings to give you WP it seems.

As for yrth, or anyone having taken this as an offensive statement, I apologize if it came across that way: But I'm just wanting to talk about the WP distribution here.

It's just that it feels weird to have 4 countries, which seem to run a lot of quests with be a citizen of land X to get a chance at this WP, if there's only 1 or 2 of the people from that land joining in.

That's why I suggested a system where the candidate gets a bonus, but not one too high.

Perhaps that's also due to my misinformation, but the quests I saw lately seem to shift more and more into this direction.

[dst]

I like Shadow's proposal.
I see it like this: restriction=discrimination
I agree that the WP [u]codes[/u] should be given by kings only to their own citizens (with exceptions, but those exceptions have to be set by kings or they can even not exist; it's up to them). But I don't like restrictions like: you can win a wp only if you are citizen of land Y.

Now I will refer only to myself: you want me out of a quest? There are ways to do that. And NOT by denying me the right to participate. There are certain types of quest that I will never do cause I hate them. And this is just an example. People will not participate just cause I am taking part? BS! (sorry for the foul language). Let's say that I know at least one quest that was "arranged" so certain people will win. People that don't even know how to spell the word "quest". Unfortunately this is hard to prove.

Now, I am concerned of another aspect:WP trading or "gifting". And creating "dummy" quests to have a reason to give someone a WP. Or creating quests that almost nobody knows of to have a reason to give WPs. I do hope Mur will make public the WP logs because I am sure we'll read interesting stuff on them.

[Firsanthalas]

Let me make one thing clear. Mur said that the WPs for land treasury were to be used for the good of the land. And that means that the Kings can 'gift' WPs to people. Its up to us to distribute them. If you don't like it, go join a land with a king.
As for people in a land with no king, if you want to run a quest you can ask me to sponsor it. I may do so. But cribbing about it when you haven't even asked is pointless.
As for restrictions, I don't care what you think. I intend to have some quests where citizens of Loreroot have positive discrimination. I won't apologise for it and I am telling you straight so you can't say I've tried to hide the fact. But I repeat that not all quests and WPs have and will be like this. Some have and will always be open.
As for people not liking restrictions, well you not what you can do then don't you? There are 4 kings, if your not happy with dealing with me, toddle off and try one of the other 3. Until you have tried all 4 and gotten nowhere you don't even have a leg to stand on complaint wise as far as I am concerned.
As a king my job involves improving, promoting and nurturing my land and its citizens. Not yours. Having said that, I'd like to think that I am open enough to try and help people out in general. But if you don't ask you won't get.

And for those purposes, snippy remarks, generally nastiness, veiled threats or accusations won't get you far with me. Neither will half baked ideas or half made quests. Come to me with actual quests and I'll consider sponsoring.

[Yrthilian]

Well that depends on the log you refer to DST

I know i have keept track of all code i have givin out
for all quests and for what they were for.

now that is up to mur to ask for it and make public if he chooses

but i dont think it will be intresting reading

[dst]

First:I did participate in your quest so don't start screaming I did not.
Second:I think I can get WPs to award for quests if I want to. And I will never ask to sponsor any of my quests since unfortunately [u]probably[/u] none of the loreroot people will be able to complete it. So chill.
Third:define "gifting". Cause right now I see like: Oh! X is a friend/pal/citizen/<insert relationship here>. He/she needs a WP for <insert wish here>. I will give one. I agree that WPs should be given not only for quests. But not because "poor Y has none or X is my friend"

And yes, I understand that your job is and I quote [quote]improving, promoting and nurturing my land and its citizens[/quote]. Too bad you listen ONLY to your people. And you only believe their part. You're too overconfident in them.

And I repeat: don't worry! Chill! Relax! I am not going to ask you for any WPs. I don't want to take the WPs from your people and give them to others . I am too kind for that.



Side note: is that new quest of yours a way of "gifting" Loreroot people also? But made in a subtle way so it will appear as a normal quest? Wait! Don't answer that cause I really don't want to know.


LE:Yrth, if it's long enough, I bet it will. At least for me

Edited March 12, 2010 by dst

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' date='12 March 2010 - 05:23 PM' timestamp='1268411032' post='56269']
If i make wp functional only for players with lands, all this "independent" thing will go out in a week without much argue. But because you have an option, some of you stay without citizenship but still want the benefits of one.
[/quote]
For someone who values loyalty you underestimate the feelings of your players. I will not let an honorable character of mine pledge allegiance to someone or something just to improve my metagame. I have no doubt many of citizens from the king-less lands have similar ideals.

*edit: grammar*

Edited March 12, 2010 by Kafuuka

[Chewett]

Fine, lets only have WP awarded to people from the land the king gives it from.

Oh, you arnt from MB? ah what a shame, well after my 200th quest it seems like the same people got the wishpoints again, just for taking part, They didnt even finish the quest... but since they were from MB thats fine

*Heavy Sarcasm*

Some quests you just have to participate in and be a member of that land and you will likely get the wishpoint. The issue is that people arnt getting it for being the best, they are getting it because they were the only person to go for their land, Which is plain wrong.

Im not saying that all wishpoints should be avalible to everyone, But currently there are a lot of... dubious quests that are just shouting "FREE WISHPOINTS FOR X LAND"

[Udgard]

Okay, let's look at this again.

The one that is supposed to be kept within the land only is the [i]codes[/i], which is totally fine. But to have the [i]WP[/i] itself be confined to a land only? That's discrimination, and while it might not be the king's purpose, it will end up being a path to stocking their citizens up with WP rather unfairly.

I really don't mind if the King's own quest (a.k.a. their [u]personal[/u] quest) be for the citizen only, after all, with RPCs there were also some kind of restrictions at times, and Kingship is undeniably a role, so I guess it'll be okay for kings to make land only quests.

But, what about other people? The WP codes should be given only to quest [u]creators [/u]of that land, but the WPs themselves should not! I don't see anywhere in the announcement that the WPs themselves should be confined to a certain land.

Talking about discrimination? Let's use a simple real world example. Suppose you want to get a job, of course there will be discrimination based on your [u]skills[/u]; those who have the skills more suitable for the job will undeniably get an advantage and be more likely to get hired. That's no discrimination: that's the law of nature, [u]survival of the fittest[/u] (in that field). But when you are excluding people for their ethnicity, for example, that is [u]discrimination[/u]. And an unjust one I must add.

I really don't mind if kings set up their own quest for their people, or if you don't have the time, commission another person to make one for you (but limit to 1 quest per say, 2 months, or else you'll just be "commissioning" every quest maker in your land and all quests will end up restricted to your land anyways). But really, I don't want to start seeing "regular" people making quests that are bound to a land only, or sponsors (be it kings or other WP sponsors) give advantage to people from a certain land.

Keep the [u]codes[/u] inside your land. Not the WP itself.