The Eternal RP Debate

[Watcher]

[quote name='Yoshi' date='26 May 2010 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1274893398' post='60410']
Yeah but, shouldn't she make the choice herself when shes of age?
[/quote]
Your argument is based on the idea that this new account is actually a new player. That is not the case.

This new "character," if it can even be called that, is simply another alternate for an established player. There will be no "deciding;" all the choices a new character would normally make were settled on long before this account was created.

Your argument would make sense if this had been the actual child of two people. However, this is little more than yet another example of the extremely poor quality of role playing that has permeated MagicDuel. A character conceives a "child," but the player portrays this “child” as being nearly identical to the character who is supposed to be the parent.
The tradition of starting "children alternates," used by the same players who are supposed to be the parents, was a trend I had hoped to see the demise of, yet this is just more ammunition to be used by those who believe that role playing has no place in this game.


If this is what role playing is turning into, and it pains me to say this, then they are correct.

[Tarquinus]

[quote]The tradition of starting "children alternates,"...yet this is just more ammunition to be used by those who believe that role playing has no place in this game.

If this is what role playing is turning into, and it pains me to say this, then they are correct.[/quote]
Allow me to say that firstly, I agree, and secondly, that not every person who "roleplays" in MagicDuel agrees that role-played children are a good thing or role-plays in the same way.

I will go further: I am very annoyed that some people seem bound and determined to remove the "fantasy" from what is advertised as a fantasy role-playing game. I do not refer to those who famously oppose role-playing, but to that same camp of those who think "child alternates" are good for the game, for they undermine, whether they mean to or not (and I think, on balance, that they are unaware of the effect they are having), the consensual fantasy and the magic of the MagicDuel game setting, and they undermine it with the basest of humdrum, everyday details. As my "alt" Keith Moon observed, no one cares whether there is toilet tissue in the invisible WC of the Defensive Quarters. That is a detail we can all live without.

Until that second camp agrees to study the setting, analyze it, and attempt to understand the impact the setting has on their characters, I, like you, have only the feeblest of answers to the first camp: "It ain't me done it." Among the second camp, I must include, with no pleasure at all, those who smile and nod with approval at "events" such as are the subject of this thread.

As a proud citizen of Loreroot, I, as the character Tarquinus, sometimes find it hard to be proud; and indeed some might say the pride I exhibit is only for the sake of role-playing the Latin [i]cognomen[/i] of that character.

[SageWoman]

[quote name='Watcher' date='26 May 2010 - 12:50 PM' timestamp='1274896254' post='60414']
Your argument is based on the idea that this new account is actually a new player. That is not the case.

This new "character," if it can even be called that, is simply another alternate for an established player. There will be no "deciding;" all the choices a new character would normally make were settled on long before this account was created.

Your argument would make sense if this had been the actual child of two people. However, this is little more than yet another example of the extremely poor quality of role playing that has permeated MagicDuel. A character conceives a "child," but the player portrays this “child” as being nearly identical to the character who is supposed to be the parent.
The tradition of starting "children alternates," used by the same players who are supposed to be the parents, was a trend I had hoped to see the demise of, yet this is just more ammunition to be used by those who believe that role playing has no place in this game.


If this is what role playing is turning into, and it pains me to say this, then they are correct.
[/quote]


Yes, Dariea is an alternate. However, she will be an character unto herself and will be not portrayed as the main player. Falen Angel is also my alternate character and at no time does she act like an extension of Sagewoman. Dariea is not a citizen of Loreroot nor will she be of any other land for that matter. The Dariea account has yet to interact with anyone else save my own self role play with her as an infant. That is coming to an abrupt halt as of now. The mp3 account will begin to play and develop on it's own. Battling it's own fights and collecting it's own friends and followings. Don't like it? Battle or walk away. There is always a choice.

[Indyra]

Okay! i haven;t been involved into this "Birth thing" but here is how is see things!

Things took a pretty bad turn now they should stop because the only ones who are actually hurt here are the people who did lots of work and had nothing to do with this whole event. Sage if you want to play the new character just do it .
You people are making such a big deal out of nothing !Stop ranting and fight and actually start playing.
For once i'd like to play without being assaulted of wars that hove nothing to do with the game ?

I have a question and i want to answer to yourselves and not continue the rant here.

"Where do these wars fit in the actual story of the game ?"

Thanks for your attention

Indy

Edited May 27, 2010 by Indyra

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Indyra' date='26 May 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1274937951' post='60441']
"Where do these wars fit in the actual story of the game ?"
[/quote]
Where does any of the RP in MD fit into the "actual story"?

There simply is no "actual story" for MD, and that's why there's a chatbox, and why all of the AL is based on the roles that players chose and not a bunch of made up characters that one person made.

Besides, if there's no conflict in a story, it's not a story. It's just boring.

[Windy]

I agree to a certain extent that role-played children is a tiring occurrence, as my alt, Leucretia, found out. If you all recall, this game is an experiment created by Mur and his staff. He told us this up front. We have also been told, that fighting and quests are not the only thing to do in MD. Role-playing is a vital part as well.

If a player chooses to role-play mundane things not related to the game, who cares? As long as it is not vulgar or against the rules set for us, no harm done. It amazes me how many players get bent out of shape over this issue.

Before I joined MD, there were no bars, or pubs, or Inns. It had no purpose in the game and as such was objected to at first; but now it is a common place role-played entity, which has grown and been adopted by many players.

My point is this. Why set boundaries for other players? Why set boundaries for yourselves? There is so much that can be accomplished in this game. We can shape and mold this reality to suit our needs with our imaginations! If Mur objects to any of this, he will let us know and frequently does, that I am sure of. If he does not object, then I do not see what business it is of anyone else to object and make a fuss over something that has nothing to do with them. You can either role-play along or you can walk away and do your own thing.

I am sure that there is a quote out there about people with opinions...but of course, it escapes me. When we let our egos, feelings, and other "real life" issues, become part of the game, then we are setting ourselves up for failure and a world of hurt. We have lost a lot of good players because of this same issue. Let us drop our egos, our personal feelings and let MD evolve like is it suppose to and let her people grow and evolve as well.

Thank You.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Windy

[Tarquinus]

[quote name='Windy' date='27 May 2010 - 08:32 AM' timestamp='1274967153' post='60448']If a player chooses to role-play mundane things not related to the game, who cares? As long as it is not vulgar or against the rules set for us, no harm done.[/quote]
I could not disagree more. Someone is plotting to assassinate a king: that is interesting. Someone is pretending to have magic powers that are not supported by the system: that is all too often uninteresting, and it undercuts the magic powers that [u]are[/u] part of the system. I have seen someone get indignant that her magic "powers" failed to heal someone else's roleplayed injury. That is why we have a system. It establishes what can be done, and by whom. Without the system, all roleplay occurs with the consent of the other players. It is not impolite, it is damned rude to impose your personal roleplaying vision on everyone around you by dictating the terms of the shared reality.

[quote]My point is this. Why set boundaries for other players? Why set boundaries for yourselves?[/quote]
That is precisely what distinguishes a strong roleplayer from a weak one: boundaries. I have heard someone say of roleplaying, "anything is possible!" For a weak roleplayer, perhaps. A strong roleplayer sets limitations for her character and uses them to define the character. Sherlock Holmes is addicted to cocaine. Achilles is vulnerable at the heel. Even Superman, a godlike character if ever there was one, is vulnerable to kryptonite. A character's weaknesses -- limitations -- are intriguing, and for the purpose of a strong story, necessary.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Tarquinus

[Windy]

[quote name='Tarquinus' date='27 May 2010 - 08:49 AM' timestamp='1274968153' post='60449']
I could not disagree more. Someone is plotting to assassinate a king: that is interesting. Someone is pretending to have magic powers that are not supported by the system: that is all too often uninteresting, and it undercuts the magic powers that [u]are[/u] part of the system. I have seen someone get indignant that her magic "powers" failed to heal someone else's roleplayed injury. That is why we have a system. It establishes what can be done, and by whom. Without the system, all roleplay occurs with the consent of the other players. It is not impolite, it is damned rude to impose your personal roleplaying vision on everyone around you by dictating the terms of the shared reality.


That is precisely what distinguishes a strong roleplayer from a weak one: boundaries. I have heard someone say of roleplaying, "anything is possible!" For a weak roleplayer, perhaps. A strong roleplayer sets limitations for her character and uses them to define the character. Sherlock Holmes is addicted to cocaine. Achilles is vulnerable at the heel. Even Superman, a godlike character if ever there was one, is vulnerable to kryptonite. A character's weaknesses -- limitations -- are intriguing, and for the purpose of a strong story, necessary.
[/quote]

I see what you are saying. These things can get ridiculous very quickly.

[dst]

Boundaries are the thing that keeps me from doing certain things in game (potentially harmful things or at least annoying). Boundaries are the thing that makes me think twice before replying on the forum (well..also common sense ). Without boundaries set by someone or by yourself we would have nothing but chaos.

And now back to the subject ([color="#FF0000"][b]btw: this started to be a bit offtopic so I am considering splitting the topic - let me know what you think[/b][/color]). When I think at role playing I think at pretending/playing things you cannot do in real life: be a knight, princess, toilet lion . I even have no problem with the cooking you all do at DQ. I don't like it but I just ignore it. It's innocent and causes no harm. BUT from baking cookies up to giving birth in the game is a HUUGE step.
Mur likes the diplomatic way (after all...he has me and Akasha to scream and shout - kidding). He will not tell you into your face that you're stupid. If he does then it means you reached his limits. And why do you think that Mur is ok with giving births? Just cause he didn't do anything about it up till now?

[quote]You can either role-play along or you can walk away and do your own thing.[/quote]
What if my own thing is to mess with your RP? Isn't that considered RP also? After all...you are the one saying we should have no boundaries
Yeah, I think the same in a way. Don't like it, go away. The difference is that if I see something I don't like I do something about it. And I don't even need to do too much. Seems like all I need to do is be there and say 2 sentences


[quote]When we let our egos, feelings, and other "real life" issues, become part of the game, then we are setting ourselves up for failure and a world of hurt[/quote]
I know: this is directed at me and I will reply accordingly. You'd be surprised how wrong you are. I do have an ego, I admit (and it also gets me into trouble but that's mostly my problem). I do have feelings but I will not stop them cause just so I will not "harm" someone. Why? See the ego thingy . As for real life issues...the most bald moves i've done where when I was feeling the best ever . Failure? I am a winner. I am not afraid of speaking my mind, I don't hide from players, I am not afraid of stronger players.

[quote]We have lost a lot of good players because of this same issue.[/quote]
You don't understand something: players come and go. It is called a life cycle. Sooner or later they will leave. Saying they leave cause of "the same issue" is wrong. They do not leave cause of MD issues. It's just a normal thing. So I don't believe they left cause MD cause them harm or god knows what.


[quote]Let us drop our egos, our personal feelings and let MD evolve like is it suppose to and let her people grow and evolve as well.[/quote]
MD is made of players who have egos, feelings. The players make MD evolve. Their wishes, their needs are what makes it spin. If you drop them then you'll have a dead world. That's the flavor of MD: the players. Otherwise it will be just another game where you go and kill/interact with bots.

[Yrthilian]

Well this is going a bit off topic but is still related to the issue at hand.

It also comes down to some simple matters.
For example a simple question like...

What is role playing?

This one question has many many answers ALL depending on ones point of view and
experience. For a new player who has never done RP they see the *Blue text* so to them
this is RP using a feature to portray an action. This is just showing actions and not
RP to the more experienced players. Now i could go on and on about what RP is
but then to some you will disagree with me on some of my points of view.

The issue of Birth within MD...

Well this is not something i really care about if it is done or not. I only care for what
will be good or bad or even indifferent to MD. If something is so bad and could cause huge
problems. This i agree must be dealt with swiftly. Some things are good and they take the
course they are suppose to. The indeffrent well not much happen with that stuff and it falls
away and is forgotten.

The Birth issue is falling under the bad/indifferent in my opinion. Now this is only in my opinion
so don't flame me for been write or wrong. It is an opinion.

I agree limits need to be set but some people don't know when to set something as a limit and RP gets
a bad name because of it. The way i see it is like this. Can i d it in RL yes or no. If yes then fine
if no then how bad of a no is it. depending on how impossible something may be i may allow myself the
to be able to do it. if it is something very difficult to do then it will take time and so on.

For those of us that have been playing for a long time. All i can say is we all have egos and those that
say they don't are lying. To be a figure within MD you have to have some sort of ego. But that is how i see it
again my opinion.

What happened in game and out of game well in my opinion it should not have happened but well it did so now time
to move on.

I am goign to stop as i think i have gone a bit far off topic here

[Aysun]

In my experience, if you're truly going to implement an alt character, or a "second" (or even a "third") as I've grown accustomed to calling them, it is absolutely best to not even let on that you are someone else that everyone already knows.

If you're out to be a new person, [i]be[/i] that new person- why do they have to know you are also so-and-so?

Be anonymous. Be so anonymous that you even have a separate forum account that is its own entity also.

I'm sure some are already doing things like this, but it seems the more well-known players are more keen on advertising the fact that they have yet again created someone new to the very heavens themselves instead of getting into a role, picking a path, and letting others around you respond to [i]that[/i] new entity instead of according to their preconceptions of a previous incarnation that may or may not still walk the land.

Carrying biases over from one account to another is also extremely counter productive, I think. Unless, of course, your plan is to go to the ultimate extreme with it. Another problem is creating a new entity that is naturally at odds with your main/original character. If you create someone new, they should most likely not cross paths at all in any sense, and yes I think that's possible- it would be one of the challenges of playing a new role.

However, in the end, what I really think should happen is this: There should be no alts/seconds/thirds. You are yourself as you enter into MagicDuel, and you decide where you go and what you do and when you do it. When you want to try something totally new, do you, in real life, get to shed your skin and step into a new one just so you don't lose what you already have? No. You decide if the new thing, whatever it is, is really worth it, and you [i]make sacrifices[/i] to go a new way. This, I feel, is what gives a person, a character, depth and history that is vital to a long-surviving realm such as this. If everyone just creates a new account whenever they want to try this or that out, we are merely left with a land full of shallow, one-dimensional entities that are unable to be learned from without them crossing lines and using knowledge from another account to aide and abet another one.

Child bearing, in any other setting, could work, I think. But in MD, we are all technically man-made entities within a cube that have somehow garnered a mind of our own, so how can something unnatural commit something so natural as conceiving and giving birth? I think it goes against the ethics and mechanics of the place to be able to cause something like that. Love is possible as you find other entities like unto yourself. Marriage, sure. But I don't feel that, here, you can create something organic from that which is inorganic, unless of course such a thing is yet another mystery in this great land.


[u]disclaimer[/u]: Before my own opinions arouse any sort of suspicion about myself, I'd like to step outside of things and say, formally, that I will never have any sort of alt (for I'd be a hypocrite if I did, after saying what I have above), or have ever existed previously, in MD. I'm merely another new face in the crowed, and my opinions here are based on my observations thus far in exploring and traveling through MD.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Aysun

[Yrthilian]

[quote name='Aysun' date='27 May 2010 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1274992633' post='60475']

However, in the end, what I really think should happen is this: There should be no alts/seconds/thirds. You are yourself as you enter into MagicDuel, and you decide where you go and what you do and when you do it. When you want to try something totally new, do you, in real life, get to shed your skin just so you don't lose what you already have? No. You decide if the new thing, whatever it is, is really worth it, and you [i]make sacrifices[/i] to go a new way. This, I feel, is what gives a person, a character, depth and history that is vital to a long-surviving realm such as this. If everyone just creates a new account whenever they want to try this or that out, we are merely left with a land full of shallow, one-dimensional entities that are unable to be learned from without them crossing lines and using knowledge from another account to aide and abet another one.
[/quote]


I am sorry i have to disagree with you here. The creation of ALt's is productive in many ways. Looking at why people create an alt is in its self intresting. I am a vet, withing this system. I happen to also have a larg number of alt accounts and not intencionaly. Thoes that know me and what i do know some of the history. Some ALT's i have are unknown to many.

I can also argue your point about trying thing in real life. I for one have done something simlar in RL that i tried out and then droped. But i could only do it one way. That is to say i did it online. This is in its self a NEW skin using the internet to portray something about you that you dont do in RL. I will say from persional experience with this real i have done things i would not have done in RL but treat what i do here as something i would want to try. I have then been able to adapt myself after testing this change online. So even though in RL i cant change my skin i can how ever do something and decide if i wish to adapt my life to that new way.

There have been many characters created by a single player look at Mur, KC, Shade sentinal, BigC, Wodin i am sure there are many mkore created that thoes players managed to keep from crossing the line. I know i have 2 other alts that have very little interaction and in no way use the knowledge Yrth has gained.

The whole reason for beeing allowed alts is to try a new path that you decided you would not go with a diffrent character. Now yes i agree there is such a thing as too many alts and one cannot control all of them and keep them from crossing into each other. For example look at the LIB army. Yes if people have not figured it out yet i am the new controler of them untill at least there original owner takes them back. Other than the libs i own 5 other alt account 2 of them i use from time to time and they do ther own thing. 2 other are purly for testing.

Now i am not saying i am great in fact i am not i am just another player that has been here for a long time and have come to understand many aspects to the realm and in fact learned many life leassons.

Sorry i have doen it again and gone on another rant.
I will stop here for now and gater my thoughts again.

I also just wanted to say. you mention that the MD cube and us is unnatural. Are you sure what we are in MD in unnatural. I disagree but this i think you need to figure out for yourself

Edited May 27, 2010 by Yrthilian

[Aysun]

[quote name='Yrthilian' date='27 May 2010 - 03:54 PM' timestamp='1274993687' post='60477']
I am sorry i have to disagree with you here. The creation of ALt's is productive in many ways. Looking at why people create an alt is in its self intresting. I am a vet, withing this system. I happen to also have a larg number of alt accounts and not intencionaly.[/quote]

How do you unintentionally have a large number of alts? That doesn't make any sense. Do you create them in your sleep? This simply isn't possible.

[quote]I can also argue your point about trying thing in real life. I for one have done something simlar in RL that i tried out and then droped. But i could only do it one way.[/quote]

I would argue that you [i]chose[/i] to do it one way, whatever it was, because there is never only ever one option. There is usually a sea of them. Therefore, you limited yourself to a single choice, and that's not what this is about.

[quote]That is to say i did it online. This is in its self a NEW skin using the internet to portray something about you that you dont do in RL. I will say from persional experience with this real i have done things i would not have done in RL but treat what i do here as something i would want to try. I have then been able to adapt myself after testing this change online. So even though in RL i cant change my skin i can how ever do something and decide if i wish to adapt my life to that new way.[/quote]

In the end, it is still you making the choice, and so you've not really shed anything. Most peoples' first characters tend to be the closest to themselves personality and decision-wise. What you're describing is a sim, and I don't think MD is, or is meant to be, a sim in the slightest. It is meant to pull upon what you already know, or don't know and/or realize, in reality in order to affect the situations that have been created here.

[quote]There have been many characters created by a single player look at Mur, KC, Shade sentinal, BigC, Wodin i am sure there are many mkore created that thoes players managed to keep from crossing the line. I know i have 2 other alts that have very little interaction and in no way use the knowledge Yrth has gained.[/quote]

I personally think Mur is a bad example. Mur, as the Creator, really has no choice but to create everything you see around you, including some of the characters you need to interact with in order to progress in the puzzles he lays out for you. I feel he's exempt from this debate. And, if you're one of the ones that's not managed to keep things separate, then my post really wasn't intended for you.

[quote]The whole reason for beeing allowed alts is to try a new path that you decided you would not go with a diffrent character.[/quote]

I already mentioned previously that just making a new character every time you don't want to sacrifice a previous situation in order to move into a new one in the end merely creates a landscape of empty entities that are very one-sided. It is our experiences in many different fields that shapes who we are in an environment, and if we sequester and seal off each separate experience, we've gained nothing but a bunch of facets that cannot work together due to their compartmentalization.

[quote]I also just wanted to say. you mention that the MD cube and us is unnatural. Are you sure what we are in MD in unnatural. I disagree but this i think you need to figure out for yourself
[/quote]

I will quote Mur:

"[i]The cube is the created bx around your soul and mind. [u]It is not a natural construction[/u], or it would have been a sphere.[/i]"

Therefore, we are not organic, and thus I do not think that we as inorganic entities should be able to produce that which is organic unless, of course, as I also said before, that such a paradox is intended to be one of the many mysteries of MD.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Aysun

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Aysun' date='27 May 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1274995590' post='60481']
I will quote Mur:

"[i]The cube is the created bx around your soul and mind. [u]It is not a natural construction[/u], or it would have been a sphere.[/i]"

Therefore, we are not organic, and thus I do not think that we as inorganic entities should be able to produce that which is organic unless, of course, as I also said before, that such a paradox is intended to be one of the many mysteries of MD.
[/quote]
"The cube is created AROUND" Suggests that you were there, then the cube was added. The cube is not natural, but it says nothing about the person it contains.

[Burns]

[quote] - Alts are not to be used on the forum. They will be removed/merged and you can be punished for using alts. [/quote]

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/5784-forum-rules/page__view__findpost__p__48452

Just as a reminder, all of us should have read those rules some time

Apart from that, i'm fine with alts that don't abuse the system and don't start to force their (copied) 'stories' on MD.
There's... 10 of these, at best.

There are also very few people who have the time, and brain capacity, to play two different accounts well.
Those are the only alts worth being supported.

The others... waste serverspace. And annoy me, personally, to no end.

You also have to be careful with your opinions, MD is an RPG.
We are NOT ourselves when we log in, we play a character. Some very smart people are capable of creating more than 1 character for the same game. A lot more tried and failed, but the potential failure shouldn't ban them from the try imo. They give up some time anyways^^

[Aysun]

[quote name='Pipstickz' date='27 May 2010 - 04:34 PM' timestamp='1274996043' post='60482']
"The cube is created AROUND" Suggests that you were there, then the cube was added. The cube is not natural, but it says nothing about the person it contains.
[/quote]

If the cube is unnatural but created from our own self limitations, our limitations, although created by us, would still be organic if we were the organic things that made them. If the cube is inorganic, it could be argued that something inorganic also created it, meaning that the maps of one's soul that lies within the inner walls of the cube is also of an inorganic nature, for how could something truly organic be held back by something that is inorganic? You're not really trapped in the synthetic clothes you wear, as you can remove, or rip out of them (whichever you prefer ), at any time, whereas within this cube we are very much stuck. I think that there are many ways to argue this, however.


[quote name='Burns' date='27 May 2010 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1274996612' post='60484']
http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/5784-forum-rules/page__view__findpost__p__48452

Just as a reminder, all of us should have read those rules some time

Apart from that, i'm fine with alts that don't abuse the system and don't start to force their (copied) 'stories' on MD.
There's... 10 of these, at best.

There are also very few people who have the time, and brain capacity, to play two different accounts well.
Those are the only alts worth being supported.

The others... waste serverspace. And annoy me, personally, to no end.

You also have to be careful with your opinions, MD is an RPG.
We are NOT ourselves when we log in, we play a character. Some very smart people are capable of creating more than 1 character for the same game. A lot more tried and failed, but the potential failure shouldn't ban them from the try imo. They give up some time anyways^^
[/quote]

Ah. Well my suggestion for a separate forum account for alts was to remove the conspicuous absence of that other anonymous character's presence in the forum. If someone becomes a major player in the land but is clearly absent here, suspicions could be aroused. That was all.

As for saying that we are not ourselves- surely we are a [i]facet[/i] of ourselves when we step into a place like MD. That facet, although just a fragment, is still a part of ourselves. We can't create what we are not already, and that in itself has numerous implications. Also, the longer an entity exists, it only becomes a more concentrated form of itself. I think the long-time players of MD will admit that there is a large difference between their portrayal of themselves in the beginning and their portrayal of themselves now. I feel that such a thing is natural, but in creating multiple accounts that sort of progression is thwarted in favour of a safety buffer against loss, thus heralding that dreaded one-dimensionality I mentioned earlier.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Aysun

[Sharazhad]

[color="#2e8b57"][i]I quite agree with Burns. Alts are worthwhile if you can play them well. But I dont get why this is becoming such an issue.  Is this gonna develop into a rant to ban alts? cos it sure seems to be heading that way - Just makes me wonder, what kind of world is MD turning into? [/i][/color]

[Aysun]

[quote name='Sharazhad' date='27 May 2010 - 05:46 PM' timestamp='1275000361' post='60486']
[color="#2e8b57"][i] But I dont get why this is becoming such an issue.  Is this gonna develop into a rant to ban alts? cos it sure seems to be heading that way - Just makes me wonder, what kind of world is MD turning into? [/i][/color]
[/quote]

.....or you could begin a self-fulfilling prophecy predicting such a turn and it will therefore happen!

I don't think anyone here has suggested banning alts. I personally said that, ideally, I think everyone should be kept to one character, but that's just me. I hold myself to my own ethics and no one else, but I don't see any harm in constructive criticism from time to time, and that's what this debate seems like to me. No one's been ranting, everyone's been presenting pretty good arguments for and against the practice of child alts and various philosophies behind alts to begin with. There's really no answer to the question, ultimately. It's all very subjective. The only final voice in the matter would be Mur's, and I don't think it's come to anything that serious as of yet.

[Tarquinus]

[quote]I personally said that, ideally, I think everyone should be kept to one character, but that's just me. I hold myself to my own ethics and no one else, but I don't see any harm in constructive criticism from time to time, and that's what this debate seems like to me. No one's been ranting, everyone's been presenting pretty good arguments for and against the practice of child alts and various philosophies behind alts to begin with.[/quote]
Your constructive criticism is welcome, Aysun, and indeed you get a certain cachet with me and others for arguing your case lucidly and logically among veteran players. That said, and this is no criticism of you, you speak from a position of relative ignorance where alts are concerned. It is easy to say, in a vacuum, "things should be thus," but MagicDuel is not nor ever has been a vacuum. You ask how Yrthilian can have wound up with so many alts without necessarily wanting them, and the answer is simply that he inherited them, and that they serve meaningful roles, quasi-npc-like, in the realm. He would be remiss in his function as king of Golemus Golemicarum (to say nothing of his personal responsibility as a friend) to allow these accounts and roles to languish unused or simply disappear. You arrive after the era of the RPCs, so you do not know about certain roles and characters in the realm that are or have become somewhat institutional.

In my case, I invented two alts for specific purposes, and one almost never gets used because the plans I made for it did not pan out. My "primary" alternate account, Keith Moon, sees so much use it is now honestly debatable which is the "main" - Tarquinus or Keith. It is important that you understand that my public acknowledgment of Keith as Tarquinus's "alt" is a relatively recent phenomenon. I don't mean to sound pompous, as it is a simple fact that as recently as a month ago some players were still reacting with surprise to learn that Keith and Tarquinus are played by the same guy. Why is that? Mainly, it is that Keith started out as sort of a joke, a spinoff of the Tarquinus character's belief in reincarnation, and grew into a fully developed character in his own right. I play Lucius and Keith as friends, which is easy enough to understand and explain, but they are different from each other and dwell in different societies in the world of MagicDuel. Is either of them one-dimensional? Judge for yourself. I can certainly corroborate the statement that playing multiple well-developed characters at once is challenging. Your words about the aspects of our personalities coming to the fore of these characters is accurate, but anyone who has ever game-mastered a tabletop RPG has experience borrowing different aspects of her personality and presenting them as completely different perspectives. Do I recommend it? I do not. But there are a few players, whom I will not name because I feel it is up to them to publicize (or try to keep secret) the identities of their alts, who manage them competently as separate entities. I reiterate that I did not intentionally choose this "double life" in MagicDuel so much as I fell into it, but I can certainly understand why some players might feel bored, curious, and/or skilled enough to want to try playing multiple characters with more or less equal attention. The objections you raise about the reality of the MagicDuel setting are well taken, but they really only present challenges to the players more than insurmountable obstacles. The easy answer for me to the question of the characters' role in this reality is that Tarquinus is somewhat delusional and insane, and I have always played him that way. Dissociative Identity Disorder is cliché and somewhat hackneyed, but I guarantee there are at least two players other than me in MagicDuel who carry it off elegantly and sometimes brilliantly.

[b]Edited for clarity[/b]

Edited May 28, 2010 by Tarquinus

[Aysun]

[quote name='Tarquinus' date='27 May 2010 - 08:06 PM' timestamp='1275008765' post='60496']It is easy to say, in a vacuum, "things should be thus," but MagicDuel is not nor ever has been a vacuum. You ask how Yrthilian can have wound up with so many alts without necessarily wanting them, and the answer is simply that he inherited them, and that they serve meaningful roles, quasi-npc-like, in the realm. He would be remiss in his function as king of Golemus Golemicarum (to say nothing of his personal responsibility as a friend) to allow these accounts and roles to languish unused or simply disappear. You arrive after the era of the RPCs, so you do not know about certain roles and characters in the realm that are or have become somewhat institutional.[/quote]

I've never argued that MagicDuel operated in a vacuum, however I will say that unfortunately not all roleplayers are equal and so generally my opinions come into play as a result of the majority- and in the minority that it does not fall under (as I mentioned in my first post in this thread that my comments were mostly geared towards those who abuse institution) I usually find myself quite impressed at their abilities to switch gears. You're right in that I come after the time of RPCs, and although I don't know the technicalities of how that worked, 'inheriting characters' to me sounds like sharing accounts in order to sustain an entity. I understand that long-standing players can they themselves become something of an institution, and that is something I personally appreciate because their continued activities are what build an exceedingly rich tapestry of history and stories, however if the man behind the curtain decides to 'lose himself to time' as it were, perhaps it is merely the cyclicity of things that he does so. Their passing away and effective departure from the public eye in itself becomes legend which further perpetuates their history and legend surrounding them. If they are continuously kept alive for the sake of being kept alive (either as a sort of icon or otherwise), and others are then needed to take over to do so, that character has the very likely chance of either having a significant split personality suddenly or just becoming a hollow shell of who they were under their original owner, and that would drastically affect the importance of that being should it happen. It's like a rock band that's outlasted their prime- they can end on a high note, or continue on and make their good name become a bit of a joke. But if they quit when they feel they need to go, their return in the scheme of things will be that much more epic when it comes. If that's not what you meant by inheriting, though, I do apologize for my misinterpretation.


[quote]In my case, I invented two alts for specific purposes, and one almost never gets used because the plans I made for it did not pan out. My "primary" alternate account, Keith Moon, sees so much use it is now honestly debatable which is the "main" - Tarquinus or Keith. It is important that you understand that my public acknowledgment of Keith as Tarquinus's "alt" is a relatively recent phenomenon. I don't mean to sound pompous, as it is a simple fact that as recently as a month ago some players were still reacting with surprise to learn that Keith and Tarquinus are played by the same guy. Why is that? Mainly, it is that Keith started out as sort of a joke, a spinoff of the Tarquinus character's belief in reincarnation, and grew into a fully developed character in his own right. I play Lucius and Keith as friends, which is easy enough to understand and explain, but they are different from each other and dwell in different societies in the world of MagicDuel. Is either of them one-dimensional? Judge for yourself. [/quote]

As I just said above, mostly my perspectives come from what will happen nine times out of ten, and that is a completely botched effort, intentionally, unknowingly, accidentally, or not. I know there can be magnificent exceptions to the rule (that is why I've not been quite as cut and dry about this as I perhaps could've been), but the unfortunate fact is that it often doesn't end up that way. One of my original suggestions from a completely theoretical standpoint in my first post was that in order to successfully conceive a second character, one would have to go for the totally anonymous route. From what you describe here, save for the last bit, seems as if you've done just that, and sure enough you've received due remuneration from your fellows for your efforts. By all means, I agree with that sort of course and said so in the beginning. But, for instance, such as with child alts, the people behind them are not anonymous, either because they advertised right away who their new alts were or because whatever their underlying cause for creating an alt might've been became so obvious to their fellows to the point where they were seen clear through and their cover was blown. This is the sort of thing that comes hand in hand with creating a character who's main purpose in life is to terrorize the adversary of their main which is really poor form, I think, any way you look at it.



[quote]I can certainly corroborate the statement that playing multiple well-developed characters at once is challenging. Your words about the aspects of our personalities coming to the fore of these characters is accurate, but anyone who has ever game-mastered a tabletop RPG has experience borrowing different aspects of her personality and presenting them as completely different perspectives. Do I recommend it? I do not...The objections you raise about the reality of the MagicDuel setting are well taken, but they really only present challenges to the players more than insurmountable obstacles. The easy answer for me to the question of the characters' role in this reality is that Tarquinus is somewhat delusional and insane, and I have always played him that way. Multiple personality disorder is cliché and somewhat hackneyed, but I guarantee there are at least two players other than me in MagicDuel who carry it off elegantly and sometimes brilliantly.[/quote]

Again, I said originally that, along with anonymity, picking an extreme to work from if one is thinking of an alt is also another way to combat the perpetuation of carried-over bias from one character to another, and you seem to have done this the other way around by making an extreme entity first and a more leveled out one later on down the road. *chuckle* Either way works, and coupled with your (mostly) anonymity in roles and working with dynamics through extremes and thus being successful with it, I feel the examples you've given have proven my point that those things are vital to pulling something like alts off. However, the reality is that it usually doesn't work out that way and we usually end up with a clash of interests such as child alts present. So therein lies the conundrum that must be untangled, if it is even possible, in how to separate such an intimate alt from its conceptor so as to avoid damaging/inane cross-overs of personalities/bias/etc. . I suppose one avenue it could take would be to quietly make a deal with someone outside of the 'family' to take over the character, thus allowing it to be truly its own being provided that the standard problems we've already mentioned here of having an alt as it is can still be handled with care. That is, of course, if the inorganic producing the organic is even possible by the laws of MagicDuel in its essence, and from what I've been able to read and understand it shouldn't because it doesn't really fit the logic and physics of the land (barring the possibility of intended paradox). That in itself is a completely different conversation, though, but since relevance is also an underlying issue I thought I'd give it a brief mention once again so that that aspect of it isn't out of mind.


[quote]Your constructive criticism is welcome, Aysun, and indeed you get a certain cachet with me and others for arguing your case lucidly and logically among veteran players.[/quote]

I thank you for that. Although I'm still learning, even these sorts of discussions help me better sort out the structure of things in MD so I appreciate your counter.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Aysun

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='dst' date='27 May 2010 - 05:14 PM' timestamp='1274973290' post='60453']
What if my own thing is to mess with your RP? Isn't that considered RP also? After all...you are the one saying we should have no boundaries
[/quote]
There are different ways to mess with someone's roleplay. If you're using whatever bug of loophole you can find to annoy the other party or if you resort to bunnying or godmodding then that is not roleplay. However if your character is the personification of annoying and you can play such a character well, then it is obviously roleplaying. I doubt many people are able to pull it off though. Most will dislike their character being unpopular and as the embodiment of annoyance it will by definition be disliked by all characters (except the mentally challenged). You might not like it, but you and your character are/were nice to others on multiple occasions.


[quote name='Burns' date='27 May 2010 - 11:43 PM' timestamp='1274996612' post='60484']
There are also very few people who have the time, and brain capacity, to play two different accounts well. Those are the only alts worth being supported.

The others... waste serverspace. And annoy me, personally, to no end.

You also have to be careful with your opinions, MD is an RPG.
We are NOT ourselves when we log in, we play a character. Some very smart people are capable of creating more than 1 character for the same game. A lot more tried and failed, but the potential failure shouldn't ban them from the try imo. They give up some time anyways^^
[/quote]
I agree, time and skill aren't widely available. Too many people still think that their character is them and any insult addressed at their character, will be taken personally. Any information they get on the forum, but their character couldn't possibly know, will be used by their character. Even the most basic things like a new characters' name is automatically known to the player by looking at the chat, yet irl people don't walk around with name tags on them do they? Imagine your character has an evil alignment, does something 'wrong' to another character and suddenly a dozen other characters who were in separate corners of MD are awake and running towards you to rectify your 'evil deeds'. Everybody understands power by numbers and if I learn that someone has created a fresh new alt and announces it as such, my first thought will be 'I hope they aren't going to be telepathically linked through meta gaming'. This is also why I would urge people to keep their alts from meeting each other or having them be at odds if they meet frequently.

As you can imagine, family is the worst possible relationship between alts. For family it is natural that they share many secrets, yet keep some of their own too. I wouldn't even think of trying to remember which alt knows what without using a notebook.
As for babies... if you like logging in and typing 'whaaah whaaah *soils diaper*' every ten minutes... just don't expect my character to stay at that scene.

[Rendril]

The fundemental reason that we play the game is for enjoyment. As I discussed in another post, this enjoyment can be derived from various methods, perhaps from hurting people, maybe from getting recognition, maybe you like baking cakes, regardless of what we do, our desire is to obtain entertainment from it. Given that there can be such contrasting methods, a situation can arise where fun for one person, opresses the fun for someone else. How can you rule that someone else's fun should be allowed to dominate someone else's? In order for the sytem to function, there must be a compromise, between both parties. Without a level of compromise, neither party can have their fun.

Here is an example:
Let us say Person A enjoys talking and not whispering, but Person B enjoys whispering but not talking.
If Person A only ever talks, Person B will not have any fun, similarly, Person A will not have any fun if Person B only ever whispers. Eventually they must meet half way, Person A sometimes whispering, and Person B sometimes talking, the system cannot function unless this happens and hence neither will enjoy themselves.

I realise that compromise might not be the best word for what must be done. What is needed is an amalgam of both acceptance and allowance.

So why should you have to compromise? It is simple, if you don't, why should the other party.

As for the child/childbirth role play, they are entitled to derive fun from what method they must, yet should be mindful that others might not appreciate it quite as much. There are many ways in which it can be done, and as I have not seen it taking place myself, I cannot comment on whether I agree with it or not. Whether something is poor role play or not role play at all is entirely subjective. Regardless, my point is this, "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it"



[quote name='Aysun' date='27 May 2010 - 11:26 PM' timestamp='1274995590' post='60481']
...
I will quote Mur:

"[i]The cube is the created bx around your soul and mind. [u]It is not a natural construction[/u], or it would have been a sphere.[/i]"

Therefore, we are not organic, and thus I do not think that we as inorganic entities should be able to produce that which is organic unless, of course, as I also said before, that such a paradox is intended to be one of the many mysteries of MD.
[/quote]

I believe you are misunderstanding the meaning of the cube not being "natural". I do not think that "natural" in this context is as organic. Since both organic and inorganic entities, by virtue of their very existence in nature, are natural, I will assume that you mean a more philosophical and abstract notion of organic and inorganic, rather than carbon-based.

I think it is within the realm of possibilty for something organic to produce something inorganic, and simialrly, for something inorganic to produce something organic.

From my understanding, you have shown them as mutually exclusive sets. I propose that they are in fact intersecting sets. That is, something could be both organic and inorganic at the same time. Imagine an inorganic body with an inorganic soul breathed in. In the words of Styx "My heart is human, my blood is boiling, my brain IBM"


[quote name='Aysun' date='28 May 2010 - 12:02 AM' timestamp='1274997760' post='60485']
If the cube is unnatural but created from our own self limitations, our limitations, although created by us, would still be organic if we were the organic things that made them. If the cube is inorganic, it could be argued that something inorganic also created it, meaning that the maps of one's soul that lies within the inner walls of the cube is also of an inorganic nature, for how could something truly organic be held back by something that is inorganic? ...[/quote]

You will find that we in fact do break out of these limitations.
However, why could something inorganic not hold back something organic?

Edited May 28, 2010 by Rendril

[Aysun]

[quote name='Rendril' date='28 May 2010 - 09:09 AM' timestamp='1275055744' post='60538']
I believe you are misunderstanding the meaning of the cube not being "natural". I do not think that "natural" in this context is as organic. Since both organic and inorganic entities, by virtue of their very existence in nature, are natural, I will assume that you mean a more philosophical and abstract notion of organic and inorganic, rather than carbon-based.[/quote]

Inorganic things do not occur in nature, that is the whole purpose of it being termed 'inorganic' to begin with. If nature created it, then it would be organic. If man gets its hands on it, alters its molecular properties into a beast of a thing that can never occur naturally on earth, then it is inorganic. I feel that natural/unnatural are interchangeable, in this instance, with organic/inorganic. What was created by the world and what was fabricated- like unto the cube we are in. Since in md we are literally in a cube, the philosophical aspects of it then become the literal, and that is what we're left to work with, I think.

[quote]I think it is within the realm of possibilty for something organic to produce something inorganic, and simialrly, for something inorganic to produce something organic.

From my understanding, you have shown them as mutually exclusive sets. I propose that they are in fact intersecting sets. That is, something could be both organic and inorganic at the same time. Imagine an inorganic body with an inorganic soul breathed in. In the words of Styx "My heart is human, my blood is boiling, my brain IBM"[/quote]

I think it is possible for something organic to [i]affect[/i] something else that is organic and thus make it inorganic (our periodic table is proof of such endeavours), however we cannot, say, conceive a child by the regular means that would therefore be some sort of freak inorganic thing. And so, my point is that the organic produces the organic but can make what is already organic inorganic after the fact, and in a similar fashion that which is inorganic cannot produce something that is organic- they simply do not have the composition to do so. The inorganic would produce more of itself which is therefore also inorganic.

With regards to the soul, I cannot personally think of any more innately organic than that. A shell, which is ultimately inorganic, can have a consciousness that was put into it, but does consciousness constitute an actual soul? It is the argument of "Ghost in the Shell", and a very complex one in and of itself that I think perhaps warrants closer attention but probably not here, heheh.


[quote]However, why could something inorganic not hold back something organic?
[/quote]

It's similar to the analogy I used earlier but I shall modify it since you have me thinking of souls now- you yourself can, right now, remove or break out of your synthetic, inorganic clothing, however your organic soul cannot break out of its organic body. If we are to use Ghost in the Shell as another example, even Kusanagi can send her ghost/soul out of her shell along the lines of the ethernet, but her police partner who is 100% organic human cannot. It is another tantalizing clue that if she *does* have a soul, it cannot be held back by the inorganic shell if she chooses.

[Burns]

Tons of natural things are inorganic.
Organic is merely what we consider life, because it's by some coincidence carbon-based on earth.

Almost all forms of minerals and metals, for example, are not manmade, and inorganic. Anything that doesn't live is inorganic by definition.
All forms of salt, and even water is inorganic.
Natural and organic are definitely not exchangeable. Organic and alive would be better, even if not completely correct, either.

Reproduction, for one thing, is something only living things do (again, by definition).
I'll point your attention to the regeneration intervals and simply state that, if you weren't alive, you wouldn't regenerate, which is merely a form of reproduction. Therefore, you are organic. Maybe nothing else in MD is, which i find highly unlikely, but each player definitely is. Inorganic things do not reproduce lost substance.

The soul is a special matter. According to almost any religion ever, it's not bound to anything. As such, it's neither organic nor inorganic, it's simply not built from any elements. If you wish, a soul is like an electric impulse, but not quite that either, because... how would that be mystic? The only interesting part of Ghost in a Shell is the fiction that the whole soul can be taken from a human and implanted into a puppet without major losses.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Burns

[Aysun]

[quote name='Burns' date='28 May 2010 - 02:09 PM' timestamp='1275073792' post='60545']
I'll point your attention to the regeneration intervals and simply state that, if you weren't alive, you wouldn't regenerate, which is merely a form of reproduction. Therefore, you are organic. Maybe nothing else in MD is, which i find highly unlikely, but each player definitely is. Inorganic things do not reproduce lost substance.[/quote]

Some batteries recharge themselves over time, but they're not organic. I think perhaps the idea of recharging might not be the best example.


[quote]The soul is a special matter. According to almost any religion ever, it's not bound to anything. As such, it's neither organic nor inorganic, it's simply not built from any elements. If you wish, a soul is like an electric impulse, but not quite that either, because... how would that be mystic? The only interesting part of Ghost in a Shell is the fiction that the whole soul can be taken from a human and implanted into a puppet without major losses.
[/quote]

I would beg to differ. Many world religions require that the body stay somewhat intact in order for the soul to survive in the afterlife. The ancient Egyptians are a prime example of this. Without a body for the Ka to reside in, the person in question would be lost to oblivion- thus why the ultimate punishment was destroying the mummy of an enemy.

As for transplanting a soul, one could say that is what has taken place in MD- [background=black][color="#000000"]a soul/consciousness of some varying degree has been placed within an artificial confine (the cube) and we grow at the price of sacrificing marind- or our carefree child-like naivete. Thus if there *had* been any sort of transfer, it wasn't done cleanly.[/color][/background]

Anyway, I think this is going into something else aside from alts at this point...

Edited May 28, 2010 by Aysun