Killing In The Name Of......?

[dst]

That's your opinion cause you have a special relationship with him. But from the outside the things look a bit different. Until proven otherwise I will stand for my opinion.


Anyway, I wanted to ask something today but I forgot:should limits be set to what you can do RP wise+game mechs in case something similar happens? Or at least some let's say negative measures for the ones that use such tactics? Or...are there consequences for such actions? Do I make sense? Cause I am trying my best right now...

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

My referrence to farce wasn't just about the captivity, but consider nobody even tried to revive said person for one thing. Yet the point of this really wasn't about the specific event and its specific organisers or chastising anyone, it's about ensuring that issues don't occur in the future. Blaming mechanics existing is a poor excuse at best, you can use it sure, but it doesn't excuse it. It's not necessarily that people 'will' go about killing anyone, but it's the fact that the system as it is has allowed it and that via this event someone was just killed out of the blue and some people seem to just be accepting or even praising that, so if someone were to kill many for nothing the precident now would say that that is fine. Comparing to spells and drachorns is irrelivant, totally different issue which i have totally different opinions and thoughts about - none of which worry me the way this does (and that includes a kill spell if one were to exist)

I understand the item was scripted and given to someone responsible this time, but the fact is anyone can get that scripting ability and do what they like. Add to that, that even with it being given to someone responsible it was still used in such a way as to remove someone's free will so to speak...the free will to accept the item, or the free will to run, or even just to know what was happening at all. How it was done wasn't even obvious enough for the victim to have any idea what was going on or take any action. The system currently says according to many posts here: anyone who buys the ability can script an item and as scripting an item is mechanics, whatever they do with it and however they do it is fine.

Personally, I would suggest a system where you have to accept said item for it's effects to occur. Or perhaps some sort of "struggle" game play, but if people are saying it's fine as it is and it's fine how it was used, then I guess that's that and we will see the repercussions as they happen.


Z

Edit: Someone has just told me it isn't possible for a normal player to "script" an item like this. So as long as that is accurate that alleviates at least part of my concern - thanks for that.

Edited June 16, 2010 by (Zl-eye-f)-nea

[Udgard]

[quote name='Firsanthalas' date='16 June 2010 - 10:06 PM' timestamp='1276700808' post='62002']
@ Udgard.
It isn't the same as a spell though is it? A spell has a limited duration. Turning someone into a frog lasts a relatively short time. The other person also has a chance to exact revenge of some sort. How does one restore the balance when there is one item that makes you dead? And dead is a permanent thing unless there is another item to restore you, or you can use another game mechanic to restore you.
Consider this. You pay credits toward the game. With those credits you purchase a shop creature. Now someone has an item that lets them steal that creature, or kill it permanently. Still no problem with the item being used on you, simply because it can be?
[/quote]
No, as I said in my previous post, I will question why such item is allowed to exist, but if it does exist with Mur's consent, than I will accept the fact that the item exists and can do what it is intended to do. But that is what I will personally do, instead of asking whether someone who has an item specifically designed to allow them to do that, should be allowed to do that or not. For me, it is kinda funny if we have something made just so we can forbid it to be used. Of course I will question why the item was allowed in the first place, but not whether the owner may use it or not (should it turn out that the item is allowed to exist).

[Yrthilian]

well just adding something

yes the item is allowed it was scripted by Mur.
If you look at the item is shows it is not scriptable and shows it cannot be traded
As far as i know and yes i know i can be wrong you cannot script an item to make it untradeable.

the scripting of items cannot so far as i know be done from a normal players point.
again i could be wrong but i dont think the ablity is there to make a weapon be killable.


I will how ever admint even i was angered by the sudden death of a player
but over time and after talking with many i see this as a good/bad thing
Items should be respected for what they can do and how they do it.

[Firsanthalas]

[quote]This item was created and given out to someone deemed responsible enough to use it. To argue that in the future, incredibly powerful items will be given out to anyone to use without repercussion or consideration of abuse is just sort of silly.[/quote]
Pamps, the point is that some people seem to think that simply because it is there it is open for use regardless of other considerations. This is the real issue. You may feel that you or Ivorak won't abuse it, but I am not so sure about others. I have heard many arguments about it being usable simply because it is there. The same people didn't seem to have any regard for the consequences. You said yourself that there should be consequences and you said that you are willing to face consequences. But not everyone else is. There are people that would simply use an item because they felt like it and expect to simply get away using it on the basis that there is no hard and fast rule in place that governs its use. The item exists and it is possible that it could end up in somebody elses hands. As for items that I suggested, that was meant to be an extreme example, but if somebody said to you a year ago or more that there would be an item to make people dead, would you have not thought that was silly?
Regardless, the item is there and it seems that there are no consequences for using it. That, surely has to be a cause for concern?

As for not telling people. There seemed to be some confusion to say the least, surrounding your punishment. Perhaps had you spoken to Jester about it beforehand, that could have been avoided. Right now it all seems to have ended rather messily and there seems to be still an air of confusion about what exactly is going on. Whatever about not telling me or others involved, I find it really odd that you didn't bother to consult your own king on the matter, especially if you were expecting 3 or 4 Necrovions to essentially end up in jail over it.
As the king of Loreroot, I could demand retribution for your actions against one of my citizens. However, I felt that given the confusion and lack of clarity any such action on my part would have created a backlash and not actually had the desired effect. You may be willing to take it on the chin in good faith, but there are other people involved, like your king, who may have other ideas.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Firsanthalas

[lightsage]

For the record the following paragraph is purely hypothetical, I am in no way planning to physically harm anyone.

If I were to grab a knife, go out on the street and stab the first random passerby, I'd get arrested and put on trial. If I did that in another country, the same would happen over there. The country I'm in probably won't not put me on trial simply because I'm dutch and the dutch government might not agree.

Simply because you've decided not to administer punishment because of what Jester might do doesn't mean there is no possibility to do so. If your afraid of what Necro might do in return, it's your choice to succumb to them and as result inviting these sort of actions because apparently there is no consequences for killing a lorerootian.

I believe these sort of items are an positive addition to the game, it adds possibilities of tensions to the game. I consider this quest a sparkle of activity in what is generally a dull, reserved form of politics. It's [i]magic[/i]duel so unless someone wants to, it is highly unlikely they will stay death.

Of course there's hardly anyone whom is going to like getting killed. You should be able to rely on your land, your king or the community to protect you from this. Through repercussions that scare potential killers off or through other means. Of course, it'd be nice if they revive you too.

[Firsanthalas]

You would be correct Lightsage. The difference, is that the contrary has actually happened in MD. We have actually seen a war sparked off by an argument between two people (I'm not saying it was the sole cause, but it was the catalyst to say the least).
In the real world no land would create a stink over an obvious criminal getting their just rewards. If they did, they would meet with opposition from other countries. Maybe not by force, but there are other means to show your views. These don't exist in MD. The court in MD seems to be more for real issues, not RP ones. What happens to lands with no kings? There is no means to confine any person available to the kings either. Except for requesting that someone be sent to jail. There are also rules and regulations, like the Geneva convention and bodies such as the U.N.
I'm not afraid to pursue a course of action for RP purposes, when it is clearly the correct course of action to take. The issue, is whether the reaction will be appropriately handled. For the record, I don't think Jester would over-react and blow things into a giant mess. But it has happened in the past and may well happen again.
I felt it was worth bringing this to light at this time. There has obviously already been some confusion when crime and punishment arose in this instance.




One other point. Say that I wanted to hire someone to kill the killer. How would I hire Ivorak to kill himself?
Tongue in cheek, but I think a fair point nonetheless.

Edited June 17, 2010 by dst

[lightsage]

You had them in holding (well the ones that you bothered to take, Ivorak was not amongst them) and let them go, it's RP, they didn't break out you let them go. Your right, there is no geneva convention in MD, you could have come up with a creative punishment. Torture them till they'd agree to become LR citizens and then jail them, capture Ivorak and put them there with them (the character has got a mental problem and feels the need to kill) till he kills one of them. Or you could just have held them for longer. This way you administer no punishment and let the "criminals" go free.

As for there being no courts for ingame matters, what's stopping you from starting one?

[Sharazhad]

[quote name='dst' date='16 June 2010 - 10:47 PM' timestamp='1276721225' post='62018']
That's your opinion cause you have a special relationship with him. But from the outside the things look a bit different. Until proven otherwise I will stand for my opinion.


Anyway, I wanted to ask something today but I forgot:should limits be set to what you can do RP wise+game mechs in case something similar happens? Or at least some let's say negative measures for the ones that use such tactics? Or...are there consequences for such actions? Do I make sense? Cause I am trying my best right now...
[/quote]

[color="#2e8b57"][i]Why didnt anyone answer Dst's question? and less importantly why did she get neg repped for it? it seems like she was asking a reasonable question. If this had to happen again would there be any consequences? Should there be consequences for such actions? [/i][/color]

[Firsanthalas]

I didn't let anyone go, I didn't know anything about it. As I already said, there seemed to be total confusion as the what was actually going on. I heard that they were being locked up and it all seemed to be fine and dandy, next thing they were let out. As I said, messy, very messy.
Anyway, there will be more to follow, you can rest assured.

[lightsage]

You are the king if you didn't know anything about it, that is your mistake.

[Firsanthalas]

Wow that makes sense doesn't it?
The whole thing was deliberately kept from people, including me and it is my fault? What am I, psychic?
You can blame a ship captain for hitting a big visible iceberg. You can't blame them for being hit by a torpedo.

[lightsage]

If you post a lookout on the ship, and he doesn't tell you there's an iceberg up ahead, you've picked the wrong lookout.
If your people apparently didn't see fit to tell you they had taken captives from a foreign land, you lack authority, have appointed the wrong person to take care of matters like these or have a traitor/rebellion on your hands. Seeing as I've need heard you mention the later...

[Firsanthalas]

I knew the captives had been taken. It was what happen afterward, while I wasn't around. Oh, wait, that is right. I should have known because I should have been able to tell using my psychic powers. I also don't know what you had for breakfast this morning. Is that also an issue?

L.E.
You know what? It is also your fault too. Why? Well you didn't know Mya was going to be killed did you? You really should have known about it. I definately think that you should have known about it somehow.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Firsanthalas

[lightsage]

You knew they'd been taken captive. So you either:

1. Told someone to release them (your action)
2. Someone released them on their own accord (traitor or lack of authority)
3. You put someone in charge who decided to release (if they shouldn't have been released, you picked the wrong person)

I'm not sure I can make this any simpler to understand, I hope you can comprehend this time.

[Firsanthalas]

I will spell it out.
There was an RP event.
The organisers kept it secret.
They were left to run it.
While running a part of it, someone from outside interfered, partly because things were unknown or unclear.
You yourself participated in events.
While some people like myself were not happy with what happened, we let it go in the interest of other people's fun and not trying to completely mess up any effort that people did put into it. I may not agree with things and I may not have been happy, but I respected the people involved enough to not try to mess things up for them.
I treated them like adults.
I generally treat people like adults.
I am starting to feel like making exceptions to that rule.
Now, if I follow your logic, nobody should be allowed to do anything at all without asking me or the others kings first.
Furthermore, it isn't finished with.

There is now a debate concerning points surrounding the events. There is also childishness it seems too.

[lightsage]

"There was an RP event."
Actually, something happened in the realm and characters where encouraged to interact.
"The organisers kept it secret."
You didn't know the murder would occur in advance, so afterward your not responding to it?
"They were left to run it."
Just because they ask people to go find the killer or set up a system for the chase doesn't mean you can't do anything.
"While some people like myself were not happy with what happened, we let it go in the interest of other people's fun and not trying to completely mess up any effort that people did put into it. I may not agree with things and I may not have been happy, but I respected the people involved enough to not try to mess things up for them."
It'd have been peculiar if you HAD agreed with Mya being killed, that doesn't mean you should just stand on the sideline through. Your second in command (GotR) was murdered and you character just didn't do anything?
"Now, if I follow your logic, nobody should be allowed to do anything at all without asking me or the others kings first."
Of course they can... Bringing foreign prisoners into a land seems like something to ask permission for through, especially if you have to ask permission for something as simple as starting a group...

[Firsanthalas]

I didn't stand on the sidelines for your information. I was away in case that escaped your attention. I was also quite ill at the time and I had to deal with some other garbage. But thanks for that little insight there.
As for the prisoners being brought in. That was publicly declared as part of the goings on. It seemed reasonable to me. It seems that someone else didn't see it that way, but didn't notice or care until the time came. You are attempting to take one situation and twist it into something different. The issue was not at my end, it was elsewhere.
I was not contacted when people were removed. I was not around, it happened during the wee hours for me. It is not as simple as you try to make out.
There were threats leveled at people and they reacted as they did. Wrongly or rightly, in your opinion makes no difference. Add to that Mya. She was killed without her consent, she played along for the sake of it. She was never happy about it. Then there was a total cock up with the punishments. People were to be punished, then they weren't then they were. She got frustrated and fed up with it and said; you know what?, I couldn't be bothered anymore.
I really can't blame her. I would also like to point out, that you yourself benefited because of Mya's good graces and other people like myself. So you should really cop yourself on now at this stage.

[Sharpwind]

[quote name='awiiya' date='16 June 2010 - 02:47 AM' timestamp='1276652867' post='61969']

[b]It is within my power, and so I feel no guilt, and so perhaps I am deserving of their criticism. However, I still hold that if someone is given the power to enforce their actions, it is not in poor "manners" to act on their desires without asking. [/b]

Awi
[/quote]


I feel like you just said what all the politicians at least in my country truly think

It is true that with great power comes great corruption... (even with little power...)

Should we ask for responsibility to come with power ? (I hope so ...)

[Yrthilian]

Umm this argument is starting to turn into an attack
on not having guilds again. Can we please keep this on topic

The fact is an event was planed.
a murder was commited but since some people were not informed of this
chaos eroupted. The fact is the people involved relied on the TC to fix
something they did.

Now the fact is if TC was not run Mya would still be dead.
as the people involve had NO other way of reviving Mya.
it is only chance that the TC is still working that mya could come back
if TC was changed then what. Thoes people that organised the even would have
destroyed a player.

Ok now the issue of informing people. The person involved AS THIS WAS A QUEST
should have been asked about this. I dont care what? why? or how? the fact remains
that they should have. It is only common curtisy for an in game event.

You cannot compair EVERY thing in MD to RL. GET over it people MD is NOT RL
and some thing that happen should be concidered. This stupid back and forth fighting
and people trying to bring in other argument that have no INVOLVMENT in this particular
argument.

We all know the king done know everything that is going on in their realms
but i am sure if you wish them to that there is a way but then every one would moan that
the kingship is hunting players down and punishing them. Get over that fact.
Also time is an issue with event beeing run. Most of this particular even was run in a diffrent
time zone ans we know the pain that causes.

So first stop acting like children and have a decent discussion about the even in question
and stop trying to stab at the other issue already in discussion. If you are anoyed that you
RL friend or even in game friend got punished for crap then use the topic involved in that.

right now that is my rant over for now
so peopel have a proper discussion in the topic
and STAY on topic.

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

@DST/Shar
Well to be honest, one of the repercussions I was talking about is already underway. The punishment will be on the shoulders of the land leaders and the community. I don't think there is much point trying to put a proper punishment on someone for not getting consent etc as that is all far too dubious no? I think sharpwind makes a fair point on it though.

@Yrth
The people had lots of other ways of going about reviving Mya - but none of them could be bothered, thats the fact of it. Is that because they knew about torch and so were lazy? Is it because people are scared of trying different things to see if they work in case they look silly when some fail? Is it because they just really didnt care because it wasnt them that was dead? I don't know, only they could answer that.

@Lightsage
Firs's only choice, without pample's consent not to move, was to jail her (guards etc are irrelivant, who has enough movelock spells for a whole night?). As far as I know kings have some pretty heavy handcuffs on in terms of what they can do and how, and this would come under the no go category. Other than that the only course of action is to start a war or start political talks with Jester. Most land leaders want to avoid war, and as far as I know firs is taking some actions as he has mentionned in several posts - what they are, well I guess its wait and see time.

This whole thing looks kinda fishy to me now the more i think about it...

Z

[Firsanthalas]

Hmm....
OK.
Lightsage. Pamps and co were sent to various spots in Loreroot. They went there by consent and they could not actually be kept there. We do not have a tunnel of war type of place. There are places that are not readily entered, but they can be left without aid. For them to remain there it relied on their controllers leaving them there. At some point Jester's controller got involved and said that he wanted Pamps to leave. There was no way to stop this from happening. I would also like to point out that as far as I can tell, most of the converstions surrounding this took place beyond MD. Perhaps there was a change of mind due to a conversation between Pamps and Jester. I do not know for sure. But it seems that Pamps resubmitted herself for punishment. At that point Mya said forget about it. Given that there was nothing to stop a repeat of the same thing happening again and her frustration, I see her point of view.
As far as I am concerned, Firs should be able to demand justice for an attack on one of his citizens. My issue, is that, it seems that things are not actually being kept in MD and that events in MD were handled outside of MD. In short, I have no confidence that an in game action by Firs will be treated and handled accordingly. Then we will have an MD event, that is really being triggered by an out of MD thing. I don't want that, there has been enough of that. That is my fear. You may call me stupid if you wish, but that is how I feel about it and given past experiences I do feel that my concerns are valid. I also feel that I can't discuss the matter properly with Jester at this time. I really can't and won't say why on the forums as it would be very wrong for me to do so.
L.E.
I would also like to repeat that justice was supposed to have been served and built into the quest. There was no need for Firs to get involved with that at the time. That base seemed to have been covered by the people concerned.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Firsanthalas

[pamplemousse]

I'm not going to argue semantics or deconstruct posts here, but I do wish to clarify just a few points that I believe might not be completely clear.

[u]Dusty:[/u] Yes, I do believe there should be consequences. As I have stated previously, with action comes responsibility. As I have stated previously, I take responsibly. What does that mean? Well, nothing really. I can take responsibility all I want, but if there are no consequence it's just words.

I think that items like this should come with a huge penalty for using them and you are all correct when you say that there are none (however this is a Mur scripted item, not a player scripted one). Tactics like the "murder" should have drastic outcomes and should not be taken lightly, and, again this is part of my point.

[u]Firs:[/u] "Perhaps had you spoken to Jester about it beforehand, that could have been avoided."
How do you know that I did not?

The Knife cannot be transferred to anyone else, so there is no way "possible that it could end up in somebody elses hands." Also, I had no knowledge of a revive spell, or knowledge of anyone who might. I did know that on the 8th she would be resurrected, but I never willingly kept information about that a secret.

"Regardless, the item is there and it seems that there are no consequences for using it. That, surely has to be a cause for concern?"

YES! Be concerned, I was beginning to worry because everyone was so [b]unconcerned![/b]

I look forward to what will happen.

[Jubaris]

I wasn't gonna get involved into this, but few things are going to pick my eyes out.

what's the difference between week-long "death" status of an overpowered item opposed to imprisoning someone to weeks-long status due to personal wishes (with also stripping alliance badge) and not pre-set-game rules, with an overpowered item?

when me and Sparrhawk made the guild - Rangers of Loreroot, it was disbanded for not consulting with the king first. This quest was (told to me since the quest very started) disliked by Firs, and when this issues reached climax interfering with authority of a Lorerootian king () nothing was done, such as disbanding of a quest. Double standards.


Firsanthalas, you say killing someone is wrong, since you take away by doing so what a person behind the character done to fulfill the role (is it spending energy or money, unimportant). Well you just proclaimed ownership of everything lorerootian and took away something I worked for over a year (to clear things for those who don't know, it is the Savelites Church), yet that is not punishable and you seek for killing to be?


realism of both items is nonexistant, it is absurd.

I ask what's the difference?
That I don't have sugar friends to complain to everyone about how it is unfair?



[color="#0000FF"]Princ, you're offtopic. You have a place where to rant about your "issue".
Don't hijack this thread or I will move your post.
dst[/color]


on the contrary dst, I think it is very on topic. It speaks about the same type of issue that wasn't "maintained" earlier, and this hardly qualifies as a rant. I'm pointing out the contradiction in Firsanthalas' claims in this post, therefore it is ontopic.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Rhaegar Targaryen

[Firsanthalas]

Not the same thing at all Rhaegar. You know full well it isn't.
The quest was not a Loreroot quest at all. The victim was a Lorerootian, but the quest was not organised by Lorerootians. You may count Tarq, but that is not really the case is it?
The decision to have Pmaps and co held in Loreroot seemed sensible. If I felt otherwise, be sure that I would have hit the big red button.
They are not the same things, don't try to paint them as such. It is a cheap and poor shot to try making.
As for not liking it. I have put up with lots of things I didn't like. You for instance.

(Correct msitakes and added a line)

Edited June 17, 2010 by Firsanthalas