Sparring Grounds - Evolution

[Jubaris]

In order for younglings to learn in this realm, Sparring Grounds need to evolve.
Things can’t be served easy on the plate (nor it was ever possible to maintain that fully at Marble Dale Park).
Current Sparring Grounds are not maintained by anyone, so I am announcing this, and it is up to you people will you apply these standards.

Sparring Grounds is a place where free attacks are allowed now. The only thing that is forbidden and that will be tried to put an end are regen rituals, lifestealers, and such in case where people use them to harm other players intentionally with negative XP, and its general limited use without mutual consent.
People are asked NOT to use ultimate rituals to farm countless wins, but to use “interesting” rituals, train new creatures yes, but not using “beasts” to ensure their training. More of a testing abilities and tactics of variety of creatures, you can see it as continuation of Burns’ Fight Club.
Those who have nothing better to do than violate learning state of younglings perhaps cannot be “punished”, but their exposing certainly won’t help their building of a role (unless it is desired to be disliked by many), as long as there are enough people who realize this, there really won’t be that danger in that kind of people. (all you need is a number of people who actively participate in giving chance for younglings to test new things, rituals)

and those who use the place to farm countless wins will be weakened by my spells or anyone else’s who want to balance things out (not in order to harm the “strong” but in order to give chance to the younglings to beat on the most powerful of ‘em all ) --- that mostly applies to veteran mp3s who have drachorns and tokens for example, mp3s and mp4s who have some great strength that isn’t available to others in the beginnings.
something like freeze-spell, or no-multi-spell. (nothing serious )

so use this as truly a sparring grounds and fight! But not to annihilate but to learn by fighting! Your goal isn’t to kill.

This is intended for the mp3s and mp4s, I am not entirely sure how could this work on mp5 (it is considered that MP5s already learnt what they needed for fighting and can manage to survive on their own now. I only ask that you do not violate non-mp5-ally members, but it is up to your conscience)
As an mp6 I will be there to help and heal those who are wounded and I also ask that of all other mp6s and those who will become one (or have any kind of helpful spells and have enough will to participate in something like this)





this is also a first step that will be followed with things like that 'grand youngster quest', with hopefully many more later on, that will result something like MD University restored.
After some feedback, if nothing tries to stop this, I will begin announcing it in game and getting to know newbs with this.

[Shadowseeker]

Before I say anything else:

Who did you talk to about this before, and who is your support?

Right now it seems like an empty change with little backing.

[Jubaris]

it is hardly an empty change, since the change is based on changing un-preserved rules of the Sparring Grounds you started and Dojo Calyx started.
like I said, I presented how it should work, encouragements and discouragements, it is up to the people how they will act. One act leads to another, I will try to make younglings learn about something, other than attacking non-damage rituals.
This way it should actually be a game.

I will try to balance things out with what I said, use of my spells and other people who might join in in time, but not in order to punish anyone, but to keep balance of youngling's prosper.


To please your ears, Lifeline approved it as well and supports it.

[Shadowseeker]

You seem to misunderstand something.

I'm aware that SG lies in Marind Bell, but I ask again:

Who did you talk to regarding this before, and who is backing you, going to help you?

You didn't answer the question (well).

[Jubaris]

there are number of people who offered help (those who aren't known as vets but medium aged mp4 and mp5), 'regular' people can count with getting everyone familiar with the system.
the ones that can help with spells and helping newbs are the mp6s and some with healing spells or similar, and those I am hopeful of getting involved in doing the same.

It takes some time naturally, things can't happen over night, and I'll do my best (once I start applying it in few days unless anything happens to stop this) to process this as planned.
I alone would be enough to keep it maintained, but I can't really stay 24/7 on MD, rest assured that I will seek those who are able to help

[Bronzometh]

I just have 1 question: Why don't you do that training ground somewhere else, and leave marble dale as it is? There are sooo many places where it could be done. The closer it would be to marble dale park, the better (players could go from a place to another, depending on training needs, without using to many APs). I am concerned about the fact that players will have no more protection.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Bronzometh

[Jubaris]

I would have if Marble Dale Park was maintained.
You speak of protection, but there is no protection in Marble Dale Park. There is just a signpost "do not attack awake people without their permission" without anyone to maintain the rule (it was a community project so you can't complain to Mur for getting attacked).


the park is where all the newbies first start out.
it's best if they see action there, semi-restricted FFA as Redd called it
Fights are integral part of players' development, and people don't learn much at all by progression on non damage rituals, as proof I know number of mp5s who were so impressed by Fight Club's basic rituals when they found out the flaws of some rituals.
The fact is that mp3s are balanced out, they just need to buy a grassan or two and they can beat out anyone, since they are killing themselves, and newbie can kill out older wounded mp3s, so I wouldn't worry that much.

I know for certain that that would make the game more interesting to new players and more challenging and therefore even more fun

You are afraid that people will lose some fights... well, that is the point? you learn from your losses. And things aren't that black as you present them to be

but I won't push it through before I gain some more feedback from you all. Please continue and I'll try to make you see how I see this. Maybe you'll like it after a post or two



Goal of the game isn't to hide out and train peacefully for 300 activity days until you claim you are strong enough to "go out".
enjoy the game from day one.

[Lifeline]

[quote name='Shadowseeker' date='04 July 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1278251320' post='63345']
You seem to misunderstand something.

I'm aware that SG lies in Marind Bell, but I ask again:

Who did you talk to regarding this before, and who is backing you, going to help you?

You didn't answer the question (well).
[/quote]

I talked with several players about the park and how I would like having a decent training ground there because the place was deserted and nobody cared for it anymore. There were really good plans from a player within Marind Bell before but he sadly has no time atm to care for the dojo. Rhaegar is very enthusiastic about the whole idea and is also mp6 what makes the whole new concept work even better. I talked a long time with him about the park and agreed to his ideas and think they are good.
I hope this answers ur question.

[Shadowseeker]

Actually it didn't.

I

a) haven't heard any thoughts of this around, which may be the case if he talked with some people from Marind Bell...but given my history with that place he could've at least talked to me once prior to this

and

b) he actually was "part" of my staff once, for a very short time. When I asked him about it, he agreed to continue being staff, directly after the takeover..then dropped out, also without prior notice. When I asked him, he was saying it had to do with his alliance. Now that he's mp6 (for some time already), however exiled from LR and his former alliance, now he wishes to do this?

Sorry, I'm not entirely happy with things like this.

He may not have respect for me, but there is a symbolism in talking to predecessors. There should also be projects that aren't leftovers...done when one thinks they are worthy of the challenge, and not when one is looking for a new place of "power".

[Lifeline]

it would have been polite of him to talk with u before it yes but it certainly isnt necessary. let me give u an example here:
CEO of a company hires me to replace his old manager who was in charge of staff training. old manager retired and left the company.
of course i could come to the old manager and ask him for advice or similar but that would certainly be the exception. he is retired from the job afterall so i have nothing to do with him [u]anymore[/u] even if he was my superviser before.

i am really sorry but i dont see ur arguments relating to the situation. Rhaegar applies for a job in [b]Marind Bell[/b] why would he ask a [b]Golemus[/b] alliancemember especially if that person abandoned the place?
the park is in Marind Bell and with that I or the council of Marind Bell is the only entity that he needs to talk to.
Firsan made a big post about a chain of command in loreroot and yes Marind Bell has one as well and it would be news to me if golemus citizen are included in there.
I prefer activity in MD over dead leftover projects that are slowly rotting away. in my opinion Rhaegar is the right person to take charge of the park and whatever happened in his past is of no concern to me. the past is over so i move on and live in the present ...on top of that people change.

[Shadowseeker]

Now, to make this clear.

You regard the SG not as a part of the community, but yours, solely because it is located in MB?

You hereby declare this by royal decree, against any resistance by the community? You order him to take it up?

The SG, Sparring Grounds, is something I wrote in there. Not you, mind it. I refuse to let him have that place under these conditions, as long as it holds that title.

You may say, it is your right to do so. Debatable I say. It existed before kings were introduced. And yet, even now, it exists..in its own ways. I intended to change the mentality back then from the dojo, and it seemed to have worked. When I was not needed anymore, I left. I also welcome change. But as of now, I see politics, power struggle and not real interest for the best of the community.

And I ask you again. Do you order this, no matter what reaction it shall have?

[Pipstickz]

SS, you abandoned the Sparring Grounds. Unless you have something that you and ONLY you can offer for the Sparring Grounds, then it simply does not need you. You obviously have either no desire or lack the ability to have anything to do with it. You supported it when you took it over and reshaped it, and now that somebody else is doing the same thing, you oppose it, just because you haven't seen or heard anything about it prior to this topic? I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous. From what I see, Rhaegar isn't even changing it very much, he's only stepping in to enforce it better. I suggest you either state the reasons you oppose this [b]clearly[/b], or stop whining about it.

[Shadowseeker]

That he didn't talk to me is something I can take. I'm not even against anyone picking it up, to change it. Did you [b]read[/b] my posts above? I stated why I am currently here, debating this:

[quote name='Shadowseeker' date='04 July 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1278274158' post='63371']
I also welcome change. But as of now, I see politics, power struggle and not real interest for the best of the community.
[/quote]

I question the motives behind this. Is that [b]clear [/b]enough for you, or do I have to repeat myself yet again?

[Lifeline]

Shadowseeker u are missing what this topic is about...
Rhaegar is stating his plans here and waits for feedback from the community. there is no enforcing or anything so far. he is actually doing what u expect of him asking predecessors or ANYONE else what they think of this or how they feel about this project.

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' date='04 July 2010 - 02:31 PM' timestamp='1278246672' post='63336']
After some feedback, if nothing tries to stop this, I will begin announcing it in game and getting to know newbs with this.
[/quote]

just incase u overread that

[Shadowseeker]

Just in case you overread this whole conversation, I am currently doing that. I question him, and this is my way of feedback.

And no, he is not doing the talk with the predecessors thing. Fine, he can do that, it's not necessary.

What he cannot ignore though is the questioning of a member of the community who wishes to know more. As I said, the main reason why I am currently so vehement against this is the episode where he was part of SG- and chose to abandon it for his alliance status back then. Now that he is excommunicated, he tries this?

And Lifeline: You are twisting the topic as well. You haven't answered my question above.

The way I am presented with answers which are not answering the questions right now is not very convincing.

[Pipstickz]

It seems quite logical that he would pick his old position up now that he has more time, does it not? If you want to do something, but you have other things that are more important, and then those other things are eliminated from your schedule, would you not go back to that thing you wanted to do before?

[Lifeline]

ok then...

[quote name='Shadowseeker' date='04 July 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1278274158' post='63371']
You regard the SG not as a part of the community, but yours, solely because it is located in MB?

You hereby declare this by royal decree, against any resistance by the community? You order him to take it up?

And I ask you again. Do you order this, no matter what reaction it shall have?
[/quote]

SG is community project and "landless". park is marind bell location. since ur question uses a mobile community project/a concept or idea that i cant touch and tie/bind it to a physical location this is the best i can answer with. but if u meant that i consider myself as authority over the sparring grounds then no. NO i have nothing to do with it and no say in its affairs. the king of a land however is free to apply the best concept in his own land. and i do see this one as superior to the current deserted/abandoned sparring grounds for sure. but lets see... this is a topic that asks for the community opinion afterall. so lets not rush stuff.

and no i declare/order nothing at all. like i said in other topics before i cant stand how people get attacked for eveything they try and want to help the community with. so what i am doing here is defending Rhaegar in stating that he honored the chain of command and did all that was necessary before merely announcing an idea and his plans.

[Shadowseeker]

Probably, Pipstickz.

Still, the issue remains: The questions I asked to some people were not answered and right now I am waiting for them to be answered..also by the people I ask.

I have yet to see a statement that makes me think that I cannot say anything else to it anymore- when that happens, I'll be silent. But until then? I will ask.

Edit: Missed out on Life's post.

The chain of command you bring in is faulty then. Above you ask what this has to do with a GOLEMIAN person, when all I do is ask as a community member, and former leader of the same place.

And if you mention the chain of command, then I have to disagree. Because then, if there was even a speck of respect regarding the old idea, he'd have attempted to talk to me, not you. You said it yourself, you have nothing to do with the idea of it. The next person would be me then- seeing as he named it Sparring Grounds, not Calyx's Dojo.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Shadowseeker

[Pipstickz]

I don't see why people fuss so much over the name of things. Changing the name, though a simple thing, just creates confusion. So what if it continues to be called the Sparring Grounds? Just because you thought of the name, doesn't mean only you and your adaptation of the dojo can use it.

It doesn't matter if it's called Sparring Grounds, or Dojo, or Mars, or whatever. What matters is what is done there, and how it's handled, and so far I'm not seeing anything from you, SS, that relates to that, because you don't even know HOW Rhaegar will handle it, as he hasn't even started yet.

[Jubaris]

I've been chased by certain person (you know who you are ) how I didn't message "the veterans" about this...
supposedly, by a high ranking member of the community, I need to speak with as many veterans as possible before I start anything.
Still stuck in RPC universe, are we? I realize I might hurt some egos by this, but I really messaged only people who are related to this subject (king of the land that has that specific location in its territory and all the people that I was informed of who wanted to help with Sparring Grounds)

Shadowseeker, first, I don't have your contact in any form, nor I see you in this realm at all to chatter with you and mention things, second you abandoned the Sparring Grounds soooo long ago, why would I need to approach you to start something at Marble Dale Park? you shout how Lifeline cannot interfere in locations such as Marble Dale Park since it is more of a general realm's "ownership" then Marind Bell's (I see a Marind Bell tag there anyway, just for the record), yet you claim to own the grounds and that you won't allow me to "take it over"?

I gain no power with this... I've been mp6 over a year, with no advantages (I didn't had a decent training in whole of that time, I just stagnated in profile while helping other people I don't really know) and you dare to point me out as a power grabber?
and you seem very frustrated about me tending to my alliance other than Sparring Grounds... At that point it was well maintained and I didn't think it needed my help, so I concentrated on things where I was needed more - The Savelites Church (and I might say without any subjectivity that I did a pretty good job)

(as a note I didn't like your starting approach either but I tried answering you, I don't hold any grudges on you out of anything, but yet you seem to have some against me)

What DO you think my motives are?

I really can't see your logic in this...

[Shadowseeker]

Ah, now that is a good reply. I was waiting from one of you, Rhaegar.

As for the name- it matters to me, Pipstickz. I'm hung up on the name of SG; because I paid with my WP to put the tag in place there. In the end it is about how he does things. How he answers.

Lifeline- the way you tried to use your kingship and land affiliation was not very convincing, I have to say.

Back on topic:

And with the mp6 issue, actually that does relate to things like these. I'm just pointing towards adepts, and worshippers- Because the veterans are usually hard to convince, or need persuasion, you can also ask the new ones to become your adepts, it becomes handy when you are also the owner of the place they gather at.

My contact form you say..is it that hard to reach, when I am an active forum mod? Even if you say you can't find me ingame I'm available in the forums. I don't count that as valid, but oh well.


In the end, I'm here to ask. Because even if I officially gave up the ownership, I still care about that place. The presentation of this was...off. It was made in a manner that wouldn't sound convincing, at least in the first few posts. Now it's getting better.

If you wish to show conviction, you'd use a WP to change the name: At least that is how I would feel. This is merely optional, something I put here. But if you do put a sign up, I'd like to ask you to include a few lines stating that the founder of SG decided it was good as it is and left it, and that you currently constructed a new one.

Alas, will you show the conviction to pay with a WP, or not? That's the last thing I have to say until I see how things work out.

[Lifeline]

? now u completely lost me. i speak of a chain of command in Marind Bell... i cant speak of any other because just as u pointed out alrdy i said that i have nothing to do with sparring grounds.
anyway enough of that. if u have issues with the name being violated or stolen or whatever then i suggest that Rhaegar gives it another name. for now i see u doing nothing at all in the PARK and Rhaegar suggesting a nice concept for the PARK. actually we could even move it to wisper alley, champ challenge or anywhere else in Marind Bell. the park is the best location though because its intended for newbies and almost all start at the park. they cant see the orange dots on the worldmap so chances are high that they would miss the location if it were somewhere else.
this is intended to be a marind bell project! so if u will forget about sparring grounds or dojo or whatever else for a second and turn to what this is about a new idea for new players and also older ones to learn how to fight. give ur feedback to that please the location really matters the least ...

[Jubaris]

Shadowseeker, I can easily gain adepts from Marble Dale Park (as I always did... accent on always ) with or without it's management as new sparring grounds (you speak of ownership but I did not want to proclaim dominion over it, I wanted for it to start as a project, made mostly by me and help of number of people of course, but eventually let to be able to take care of itself, based on common sense of the community thanks to the minimization of number of rules that were there - more rules, harder to maintain. The Main idea is to help - yes I know that is hard to believe to many of you people.)

why do you point my mp6 status as an advantage? the spell levels are so bugged, and the strength of the spells are so low (except No Multi and Freeze that I don't use against anyone at all) that people should actually laugh at people trying to become mp6. When I see people trying to become mp6, I ask them - why?
I personally stayed as mp6 since I value creation as most interesting part of the game here, since the structure is still pretty much on the very basis, and I can help in a lot of things as mp6. (mostly in projects like this, but that was the role that I chose when joining the Savelites)

Yes well I would rather mention it in some kind of chatter as an offtopic then approach a person I hardly know with a request to "take over" the Sparring Grounds, especially since I didn't find the need to message someone who, at least in my opinion, left the grounds on its own (meaning that you did a job as long as you could and felt that you should move on to other things, fair enough, but you can't keep things like this in your pocket)

All due respect to your work, but I didn't find the need to message you, since I don't know you that well, my apologizes for that impoliteness. Perhaps you wish to speak with me about this in private then (about those personal issues, our discussion on the grounds can continue here)?

Sadly I do not have WPs to spend. I would gladly use a WP to be able to edit Location tags (I am not entirely sure how it works tho... I spend WP only for one location, right? or for the ability to edit each and every one? )
I kept the name since I didn't want to go back to the name of "Dojo", that would cause some mess I think (like this haven't...), and Sparring Grounds seemed fitting (the location had a tag, what you know )

I should have somehow appreciated your and Calyx's work in public with this, history is something I am careful about anyway, but I didn't, and I am sorry I overlooked that.

I don't like tho your threatening attitude towards Marind Bell, it is unnecessary and very ill-mannered, and I'm sure that was just a moment-mistake.

[Shadowseeker]

I won't say anything about this project anymore..but to answer the issue with MB..I don't have a grudge. But the way Lifeline wrote it it sounded as if he was saying: "I am KING here, so this is my decree." or "I own this place (including the idea not only the location), so it's mine to do as I please."

Miscommunication if he didn't mean it. But to me, it sounded that way.

We'll see how things turn out. Since you say you keep the name, I take it you're not moving the place either then?

Edit: One WP to edit ONE place.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Shadowseeker

[Jubaris]

Maybe he sounded that way, but all you did to 'reassure' him was to point out that you are the one who, in fact, has dominion over the Park
it's not like other Kings can readjust alliances of their lands countrary to wishes of the alliance, nor some Kings can close and open their territories on a whim, so why would Lifeline be able to have a say about his own piece of territory, right? but those issues do not concern you I guess, only Marind Bell's one does.

Name is really unimportant to me. If you value it so much and do not value my efforts in helping the realm, then I will name my project somehow else.

I did thought about moving the place, Bronzometh lead me to that thinking, but I am still of an opinion that Marble Dale Park is the best choice, for the project and for the realm as well. Dividing people isn't the answer, nor it would be that easy to do.



to ease your concerns, I used my WP to unlock Oak Tower. and I shortly got banished after it. I am in pain as well

Edited July 4, 2010 by Rhaegar Targaryen