A New Sparring Ground

[Bronzometh]

I announce the community the proposal of a new sparring ground. But this time, it will be a sparring ground that no one will be able to destroy or change, as happened to GGG and MDP, because destroying it will require destroying all sanctuaries, or disabling the option to stay idle. However, I will need volunteers to help creating it.

Here are the mechanics of the new sparring ground:

1. the volunteers will have to make an alt, and get it to the desired MP (so, will need volunteers to get alts to MP4, and some to keep their alts at MP3).
2. the volunteers will need to stay idle in front of a sanctuary with their alts when they don't play. when they go idle, they should have only 1 non-dmg crit alive (a bird would be the best, but a barren soul would be good enough until you can get a bird - the bird is better because it doesn't heal itself, so, there's no risk for the attacker to loose experience). The crit should have at least 50% influence (you can make no defensive rit, and let it go random, so, it will get 50% influence this way). If you don't intend to play with the alt, and use it only to support the sparring ground, you could sacrifice all the creatures except for the bird. It would be nice that the alts have more wins in the balance, so that trainees get positive honor
3. those who are training are going to stay in the sanctuary, and once every 8 minutes they can go out and attack the idle alts. the risk of being attacked in the several seconds while you are out for training is low. However, you should set a single crit rit with no influence for defense, just in case you get attacked in those several seconds.

Rules: there are no rules.

What can you get in this sparring ground
1. wins with little or no experience (indeed, GGG-style training is possible - that's why birds are better for the alts - will explain later how GGG-style training should work)
2. bursts - just in case you need to recover VE, and there is no healer available, or if you need extra VE for a big battle
3. experience - those who are going to train constantly, will often get bursts, and most of them would be willing to give the extra VE as experience to you
4. permanent stats - I can't tell how you get stats, since it would be a spoiler, but I guess is not a spoiler telling you can get stats, since that is mentioned in other topics. you will have to figure out yourself how you train stats.

GGG-style training: it will work a bit different than the former GGG, becaue the birds or barren souls will not have full health, so, crits that are doing dmg to wounded can't be used. anyway, using any crit that does any type of dmg will bring little experience, so, if you are not close to exp cap, you can use whatever you want for training. And since there are no rulles, there are no rits to break. whoever comes and want to mess our training, will have no defensive rit to break, because whatever they do, the alt will always have the same bird with little vitality (and it should always regenerate little vitality every time it gets killed, since it will use 50% influence if it's random rit, and 50% of the regeneration skill will keap the bird alive).

The gathering place I first have in mind is Winds Sanctuary. However, I guess I need Lifeline permission to set the SG there. I will anounce in this topic if I get it. If not, there is a fenths press near GOE, and I don't think I need anyone's permission to set the SG there.

Whoever wants to help building this, just get an alt to MP4, or make one that will stay at MP3. However, if your main character is MP4, you should get the alt to MP4 as well. It is not hard. It took me 3 days to get one to MP4. You don't need to spend too much time meditating if you are going to use the alt only for this SG. if you plan to use it for other purposes as well, then you should meditate longer, and will take more time.

You don't need to say anithing in this topic, either you support me, or not. If you support me, alot of ppl will hate you, so better not say anything. Just make the alt and follow the instructions, and don't tell anybody (you can tell me by PM). If you think that my proposal is bad for MD, or that it will destroy it, bla, bla, it doesn't worth to waste your time. I've red this stuff in other topics. There's no need to say the same thing here as we well. Or say it if you really want. I don't really care.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Bronzometh

[Shadowseeker]

Shrug.

Before you say anything: That is PURE alt abuse. This won't work AT ALL.

I'm afraid to tell you, alts are not meant to be used that way..not for training even for the community.

[Burns]

And you are fully aware of the alt-rules?
It's no coincidence that Mur banned alts in GGG, all alts that are not actively played, but only used for a single purpose are not allowed.

Tehrefore, your whole idea is not allowed, and you'll get into troubles with the inquisition (aka the LHOs, Grido, and me personally).
Not such a smart idea imo.

>.< Don't type so fast, Neo =P

Edited July 10, 2010 by Burns

[Bronzometh]

You can have multiple accounts, to try out story, to experince new ways of play etc ..., however if you are detected that you are using them just to help one of your main accounts , all of them including the main will get banned.

That's from rules and restrictions page. we are not helping our main accounts. I don't see any rule that's forbids doing this. And if what burns say it's true, then all we will have to do play the alts as well. anyway, it should be clearly stated how many minutes we should actively play per day or week, or month. or what percentage of our active playing we should play the alt. Otherwise, you can't determine if we actively play the alts. I think you just try to scare us.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Bronzometh

[Burns]

Not at all.
The rules are there as a guideline, much like laws.
How to interpret them, enforce them, and what people actually are allowed and what not, is not in the rules, but Mur's case-to-case decision.

You know how things ended in GGG, that's a very fitting precedence. If it happens again or not is argueable, but i wouldn't bet on him being gracious just because it's a slightly different idea.

As for 'what is activity': This debate has been on and off for ages, in RPCs, in allies, in LHOs. Being online is not enough, neither is simple walking, talking and fighting here and there. It's specially not measured in horus of being online. It's measured in what you do. And i bet an account that mainly uses its time to be idle with just one creature is not active enough to count as alternative, it's simply a multi, and won't have a long life outside of jail... unless it gets deleted right away.

[Fyrd Argentus]

To avoid alt abuse, you must never farm your own alt - only those offered to the community by others.

You would also have to set a big enough creature with enough regen that it never dies. A bird would not work.

There is no reason to have a formal spot for this, I get the impression that there are already a few alts that just stand around different places.

[Bronzometh]

well, then let's wait and see if mur forbids us doing that or not.

[CrazyMike]

Errr.... I am not going to say I support or is against the idea. I dont think Mur needs to even make a decision. The idea is flawed.

Yrth has pointed out one flaw.

I'll point out another, the trainers are hiding in the sanc but the alts are out in the open.

I am sure that they will be destroyed even before you can use them.

If you are thinking MP4s and MP3s are safe from veteran attacks, you are underestimating the veterans.

Veterans are called so, not only because of the time they are in MD, but also they possess the knowledge to do stuff that MP4 and MP3 can never fanthom.

Put the alts in front of the sanc, and I am sure Burns will be the first one who will gleefully tear them all apart.

Its sport for him, and there are lots of others who will do the same.

Not trying to rain on your parade, but unfortunately its a lost cause.

[Yoshi]

Biggest thing is the honour, how are you going to have the alts get wins for the insane amount of losses they would gain? Flawed, but fixableish.

[Bronzometh]

[quote name='Yoshi' date='10 July 2010 - 06:00 PM' timestamp='1278777637' post='63753']
Biggest thing is the honour, how are you going to have the alts get wins for the insane amount of losses they would gain? Flawed, but fixableish.
[/quote]

Indeed, this would be a big problem. Thanx for pointing it.
but ppl who loose honor while training will be able to regain it by fighting ppl who gives positive honor. if they have allot more losses than wins, they will regain the honor quite fast. at mp4 is easier to get losses than wins (so, MP4 won't have to waste too much time with the ballance). besides, most ppl won't train on alts regularly. only when they need wins. so, they won't loose to much honor. And those who train stats doesn't need honor, since they don't need experience.

[Muratus del Mur]

In reply to the pm i received from bronzometh requesting my stand about this idea:

It is alt abuse.
what you do is to run this training ground in two locations instead of one. according to the decision on ggg to ban alts found participating in that training ground, this will apply on yours too.
Only way to do it is to have two groups of people , one group willing to stay outside , one willing to do the attacks. However, this is almost doomed to be abused by using alts and not main accounts, so i am afraid it wont work.
Its good you asked, it made it obvious that you do not realise this as an abuse, but it is.

from a philosophical point of view, when someone wins something, someone else loses something. If you put up fske accounts to sustain the losses, that is abuse and law breaking almost in all aspects, from game rules to country laws. It is like making a loan at the bank on a fake name.

[Bronzometh]

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' date='10 July 2010 - 07:06 PM' timestamp='1278781614' post='63757']
In reply to the pm i received from bronzometh requesting my stand about this idea:

It is alt abuse.
what you do is to run this training ground in two locations instead of one. according to the decision on ggg to ban alts found participating in that training ground, this will apply on yours too.
Only way to do it is to have two groups of people , one group willing to stay outside , one willing to do the attacks. However, this is almost doomed to be abused by using alts and not main accounts, so i am afraid it wont work.
Its good you asked, it made it obvious that you do not realise this as an abuse, but it is.

from a philosophical point of view, when someone wins something, someone else loses something. If you put up fske accounts to sustain the losses, that is abuse and law breaking almost in all aspects, from game rules to country laws. It is like making a loan at the bank on a fake name.
[/quote]

well, that being said, I have to give up this plan, and make a new one.

[Shadowseeker]

nadrolski..we'd eventually come to close this anyways, without the need of you asking for it. (Unless you opened the thread, then it's a service we provide)

Still, closed.