Rebel Abuse Via Quests

[Aysun]

[quote name='Jester' timestamp='1291526899' post='74440']
She is not discriminating, I am. I am the one that made the rule that Necrovion rebels cannot make quests or receive the codes to make a quest of their own. If you wish to rebel against me, you will not be receiving my assistance.
[/quote]

[quote="News log"](regarding rebels) If the decision proves to be abusive or based on no actual reason, the king will get one bad point out of a maximum of four.[/quote]

This is the most immediate clause I can find regarding unnecessary rebel abuse. The king's rebel queller is there to serve the purpose of thwarting the rebels- cutting them out of things such as quests is unnecessary and could be considered unnecessary abuse against those who fight for a larger issue at hand. Therefore, I ask the quest maker to reconsider on this basis.


Also, Jester, last time I looked at the rules of Necrovion, there weren't any, so I have no idea where you are claiming such a thing- besides the fact that you cannot possibly stop any of us from making quests if we choose to do so.


[u]edit for Jester's edit since he didn't want to make a new reply post[/u]: For a policy that is not listed anywhere at all, I feel I was perfectly in the right to inquire about it. I still consider the exclusion of rebels from quests created by its citizens to be unnecessary abuse. Until I see something in the land rules about what you're talking about, I am going to consider this stance the doing of the quest maker. If you yourself make it an official 'policy' as you put it, then I will have to pursue my belief of this being rebel abuse.



AGAIN since Jester is intent on deleting my posts (which you also so kindly admitted to do in game- thank you, it made a lovely screen cap): Jester, if you wish to make this an official policy, put it into the official land rules in game. I do not see why this is such a difficult request. Until then, anyone excluding rebels from quests will be seen to be doing it out of personal preference and not an order of the king.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Aysun

[Aysun]

Much obliged, Jester.

[Jester]

[quote name='Aysun' timestamp='1291528470' post='74449']
This is the most immediate clause I can find regarding unnecessary rebel abuse. The king's rebel queller is there to serve the purpose of thwarting the rebels- cutting them out of things such as quests is unnecessary and could be considered unnecessary abuse against those who fight for a larger issue at hand. Therefore, I ask the quest maker to reconsider on this basis.


Also, Jester, last time I looked at the rules of Necrovion, there weren't any, so I have no idea where you are claiming such a thing- besides the fact that you cannot possibly stop any of us from making quests if we choose to do so.


[u]edit for Jester's edit since he didn't want to make a new reply post[/u]: For a policy that is not listed anywhere at all, I feel I was perfectly in the right to inquire about it. I still consider the exclusion of rebels from quests created by its citizens to be unnecessary abuse. Until I see something in the land rules about what you're talking about, I am going to consider this stance the doing of the quest maker. If you yourself make it an official 'policy' as you put it, then I will have to pursue my belief of this being rebel abuse.



AGAIN since Jester is intent on deleting my posts (which you also so kindly admitted to do in game- thank you, it made a lovely screen cap): Jester, if you wish to make this an official policy, put it into the official land rules in game. I do not see why this is such a difficult request. Until then, anyone excluding rebels from quests will be seen to be doing it out of personal preference and not an order of the king.
[/quote]

I was not deleting your posts because they were from you, but because you posted them in the wrong section.

The Necrovion Wish Points are mine to give out to Citizens of Necrovion. I do not consider Rebels to be true Citizens of Necrovion. If this is truly rebel abuse, then I will change my stance, but I do not believe that it is.

I did not ban you from making quests, I banned you from using Necrovion WPs to make them. You can still use your own rewards, and you can still participate in Necrovion quests to win things that aren't Necrovion's WP, if the person making it wishes.

Edit: I sent a message to the staff. We will have answer soon enough.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Jester
More detail

[Aysun]

[quote name='Jester' timestamp='1291530981' post='74452']

Edit: I sent a message to the staff. We will have answer soon enough.
[/quote]

I believe if there is to be a formal inquiry into the matter that it will have to be proposed to the council since it will deal with rather important things.

Also, simply because the rebels do not approve of you as king does not make them any less loyal to the land- You are not Necrovion, Jester. Therefore preventing access to the resources of the land to rebels who oppose you not only hurts the land but is unnecessary punishment against the rebels for simply not liking you.





[size="1"]edited for clarity.[/size]

Edited December 5, 2010 by Aysun

[Jester]

You are the one causing the turmoil, standing outside the Gates and bickering all day, insulting people just because they don't agree with you.

Also, as King I do indeed speak for Necrovion, and you are not even part of the land anymore.

[Kamisha]

Technically speaking jester is necrocron is jester. A land is defined by the most influential person in that land. For example in marnidbell I would see lifeline (it seems thats going to change soon.) By declaring your self your self a rebel you are declaring your against the ruler not the land that much is true. Though your land is formed by your ruler there for you are betraying your land. Also this is not rebel abuse. You should realize when becoming a rebel you are betraying jester. Now tell me Aysen lets say I was your friend and I posted this. Lets say you where king had wish-points to give. Would you give me the gift of using them.

Now if you did I would declare you the either the nicest most forgiving person or the most stupid. Now ill tell you now that jester is not stupid and since he is not giving you the wish-points he is not the nicest or most forgiving and I believe he is comfortable with that and I would be as well.

If that doesn't quite sit right with you or you don't understand that ill make it painfully simple. Kings are allowed to use wish-points as they see fit. If he does not find you fit he is not obligated to give them up. They are his property plain and simple.

[Aysun]

[quote name='Kamisha' timestamp='1291535805' post='74460']
Technically speaking jester is necrocron is jester.[/quote]
Could you elaborate what you mean by that?


[quote]A land is defined by the most influential person in that land.[/quote]
No, a land is defined by the land itself. People may reside there, but the people, and the monarch, will constantly change- the land is a constant.

[quote]Though your land is formed by your ruler there for you are betraying your land.[/quote]
The last history book I read stated that when the wizards created GG, Necrovion sprang up as a counter balance. I do not think Jester was one of the wizards therefore he did not create the land- better people than him have come before him.


[quote]Also this is not rebel abuse. You should realize when becoming a rebel you are betraying jester.[/quote]
Rebel abuse is unwarrented actions against the rebels, and I have not betrayed Jester- he did that well enough himself to the rest of us.


[quote]Now tell me Aysen lets say I was your friend and I posted this. Lets say you where king had wish-points to give. Would you give me the gift of using them.

Now if you did I would declare you the either the nicest most forgiving person or the most stupid. Now ill tell you now that jester is not stupid and since he is not giving you the wish-points he is not the nicest or most forgiving and I believe he is comfortable with that and I would be as well.

If that doesn't quite sit right with you or you don't understand that ill make it painfully simple. Kings are allowed to use wish-points as they see fit. If he does not find you fit he is not obligated to give them up. They are his property plain and simple.
[/quote]

I am not asking for codes from him- that time has come and gone. This is about whether or not he can actually restrict someone from participating in another person's quest simply because they hold rebel status. Quests are about the land, not about the king. THAT is the point here- sorry if you missed it.



[quote name="Jester"]You are the one causing the turmoil, standing outside the Gates and bickering all day, insulting people just because they don't agree with you.

Also, as King I do indeed speak for Necrovion, and you are not even part of the land anymore.[/quote]

Mur has already explicitly stated that rebels ARE CITIZENS. Please reread his posts- as king, you should have these updates memorized, or at least handy when you want to make a statement like this.

I have not 'stood at the gates and bickered' for quite some time- you were off being inactive for the two full weeks where I *was* actively answering questions at the gates. I do not insult those who do not agree with me, Jester- that would be you, and I have volumes of PMs, screencaps, and chat logs to refresh your memory as to why you also lost king points for doing so if you've forgotten, so please don't play that card with me.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Aysun

[Jester]

The Rebels used to be citizens, and were at the time of rebelling, yes. However, check your homeland.

I am not preventing you from participating in a Quest, I'm preventing you from winning what I sponsor it with. If the person who made the Quest still wishes to reward you, I will not take any action against them.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Jester

[Aysun]

[quote name='Jester' timestamp='1291536953' post='74462']
The Rebels used to be citizens, and were at the time of rebelling, yes. However, check your homeland.

I am not preventing you from participating in a Quest, I'm preventing you from winning what I sponsor it with. If the person who made the Quest still wishes to reward you, I will not take any action against them.
[/quote]

My oh my, somebody's found a loophole in the code. The whole point of Rebel status is so that rebels may maintain citizenship while protesting the king- finding a way around that isn't going to help you. It's only going to reinstate our status and close up the hole. Thanks for finding it, though.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Aysun

[Kamisha]

OK the first two quotes relate to the third one. Necrocron being ruled by jester does make it jesters land. I truly beleve that a land is defined by its ruler. Regardless of who rose novocron out of the ocean it does not matter who they are as they dont have control of it. For example if I where to buy an xbox and I don't use it but lets say my brother where to use it. I own it but I no longer define the games it plays or the time that its used. I simply have lost control in essence it is no longer mine.

Likewise necrocron is no longer the wizards it is now jesters.

Ok as for betrayal. Regardless of what jester did you are still betraying him plain and simple. An eye for an eye does not makes both of you equal but you still end up as two half blind people. Neither of you are getting that eye back plain and simple. Two wrongs don't make a wright would be a nice way to put it. You both decided to betray each other plain and simple thus they should be treated as separate events.

Now as for the last quote he has answered that.

[quote name='Jester' timestamp='1291530981' post='74452']
I was not deleting your posts because they were from you, but because you posted them in the wrong section.

The Necrovion Wish Points are mine to give out to Citizens of Necrovion. I do not consider Rebels to be true Citizens of Necrovion. If this is truly rebel abuse, then I will change my stance, but I do not believe that it is.

I did not ban you from making quests, I banned you from using Necrovion WPs to make them. You can still use your own rewards, and you can still participate in Necrovion quests to win things that aren't Necrovion's WP, if the person making it wishes.

Edit: I sent a message to the staff. We will have answer soon enough.
[/quote]

See he is not restricting people he is restricting people from his rewards which he has every right to do. People restrict people that have already won there quest from receiving another WP from them. Think of it like this if it makes it easier to understand.

P.S. Sry I have a tendency to be abrasive. I just don't see the relevance of what you arguing here. If I don't see a valid point I am going to be brutally honest. I haven't lied yet on the fourm and I don't plan to make a habit of it. (I may have made hasty decisions but that's not lieing before you bring those up.) I even Kept my Hate Pages the same when I was running for election of lore-root. Granted I now regret it even though I would have lost either way.

Edit: (noticed that you posted in between posts)
[quote name='Aysun' timestamp='1291537388' post='74463']
My oh my, somebody's found a loophole in the code. The whole point of Rebel status is so that rebels may maintain citizenship while protesting the king- finding a way around that isn't going to help you. It's only going to reinstate our status and close up the hole. Thanks for finding it, though.
[/quote]

Loophole what the hell are you talking about. Even if you still are a citizen you are not entitled to such. The lore root king needs you to prove that your quest is worthwhile so did lifeline when he was around. Please this proves nothing. It is not a loophole just a statement.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Kamisha

[Aysun]

[quote name='Kamisha' timestamp='1291537737' post='74466']
OK the first two quotes relate to the third one. Necrocron being ruled by jester does make it jesters land.[/quote]
No, it makes him caretaker of it. He does not own it.



[quote]I truly beleve that a land is defined by its ruler.[/quote]
And you are fully entitled to your personal opinion on the matter, but that does not make it fact.


[quote]Regardless of who rose novocron out of the ocean it does not matter who they are as they dont have control of it. For example if I where to buy an xbox and I don't use it but lets say my brother where to use it. I own it but I no longer define the games it plays or the time that its used. I simply have lost control in essence it is no longer mine.

Likewise necrocron is no longer the wizards it is now jesters.[/quote]
Again, this is very redundant- Jester does not own necrovion.


[quote]Ok as for betrayal. Regardless of what jester did you are still betraying him plain and simple. An eye for an eye does not makes both of you equal but you still end up as two half blind people. Neither of you are getting that eye back plain and simple. Two wrongs don't make a wright would be a nice way to put it. You both decided to betray each other plain and simple thus they should be treated as separate events.[/quote]
They both happened at about the same time- how can it possibly be deemed 'different'? I don't think you're fully aware of what's taken place recently....


[quote]See he is not restricting people he is restricting people from his rewards which he has every right to do. People restrict people that have already won there quest from receiving another WP from them. Think of it like this if it makes it easier to understand.[/quote]
I already answered the point of this thread in my last post. Please reread it.

[quote]P.S. Sry I have a tendency to be abrasive. I just don't see the relevance of what you arguing here. If I don't see a valid point I am going to be brutally honest. I haven't lied yet on the fourm and I don't plan to make a habit of it. (I may have made hasty decisions but that's not lieing before you bring those up.) I even Kept my Hate Pages the same when I was running for election of lore-root. Granted I now regret it even though I would have lost either way.
[/quote]
I'm sorry, but what does you lying have to do with anything? I'm confused. I don't mind, but if you could please just spell 'Necrovion' properly once it might help your credibility a little more. Sorry- I'm just horribly blunt and a bit of a grammar witch.




I think I've already stated my point clearly enough in the past few posts.


==========

@Kamisha: As of half an hour ago, my citizenship panel read 'Necrovion'. However, in those past few mintues, it suddenly does not. This is a mistake, as the intention of Rebel status is to KEEP citizenship of a land while fighting against the king. Losing citizenship status defeats the purpose.

No offense, but I'm guessing you're not a native english speaker. What do you natively speak? I might be able to word things better for you if I knew- I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you're consistently getting things mixed up it seems and that's the only reason I can think of for it.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Aysun

[Chewett]

I agree that the issue of the necrovon citizenship is something that should be re instated. I can only guess that the council will re instate your citizenship due to this bug, which would mean you are still part of necrovon, albeit unoffically at the moment. At least jester did report the bug.

On the grounds of Rebeling, Mur did say that the whole point was you could protest, but would lose nearly ever privilage of the land. That would include attaining wishpoints to fund quests and such. I dont really see why a king you are rebelling against would want to give his wishpoints out to you?

Rebel status is a tradeoff. You can still be part of that land, but by being a rebel you will lose many if not all privilages of that land.

[Sharazhad]

[color="#2e8b57"][i]I agree with Kamisha. Necrovion belongs to Jester - he is king (whether good or bad Im not gonna comment on) BUT he is STILL King. He is responsible for his land, and his citizens. Its like owning an apartment building. You could argue that the building belongs to the tenants since they all pay rent - but at the end of the day, The Land owner can invite and kick out whoever he wants because its his set of apartments.

Regardless of what the Land owner did , if you chose to move out of the apartment, and protest on the street outside, you cant expect the land owner to be anything short of nice. Yes you may still have a lease to your apartment but its rather foolish to expect the land owner to let you in and use the facilities inside the building if you are protesting outside it!

When you joined Necrovion, you agreed to follow the king and his laws (no matter how ridiculous they seem to be). No body held a gun to you head and forced you to join, you did so on your own accord and by doing so agreed to follow Jester's rule and reign within Necro, be it a Tyranny, Democracy, Facism etc. YOU agreed to follow it. Do you really expect Jester to behave in any other way than he is doing now? He is perfectly within right.

You are a rebel - I applaud you for doing that. You are fighting against a king, but you have to expect the king to fight back in ANYWAY that he wishes. But it doesnt look prudent on your part being pedantic (especially with Kamisha's english - that wasnt called for, his use of english says nothing about his credibilty. Would you say the same about Mur?!?[/i][i])

You have also changed your argument. What are you on about? Not getting Wishpoints for a quest or not being able to take part in a Necrovion quest? Either way I think Jester made himself clear.

Accept the decision, go back to the drawing board and re-think your plan. In a game of chess you cant argue your opponents moves, but you can find ways to counter strike.

[/i][/color]

[Yrthilian]

Well as a king myself and from the last year of WP's rewarding i feel i have to say something

The land WP's Belong to the kingship of that land and has the right to reward the wp's or not to.
In the past kings HAVE restricted WP's to players this was at the time complained about but not agents the rules

Regards rebels you choose to be agents the kingship of the land, you may still be a citizen but you are fighting
agents the kingship. In doing this you cannot ask the person you are fighting agents to give you a reward.
Come on it makes perfect sense that Jester in this case has done this.

If players wish to rebel agents a kingship you should expect to loose out on many of the rewards the kingship
can give out for quests. I for one am not surprised Jester took this action and i believe it well within his right to
do so.

[Kamisha]

3am, anger and a drink makes my English suffer. It is my first language I assure you and I am fluent. Now that I look over it I would have half a mind to edit it but I wont it is testament to what happens when I shouldn't be thinking. I hope that when I announced this some people would make it clearer. I mean no hard feelings and these people seem to make things clearer then I was.

Sharazhad I thank you for defending my point and making it clearer. Since this topic seems to be resolved I am done here.

[Malaikat Maut]

Aysun, you need to consider this situation in terms of real life. Perhaps that may help you truly grasp the rights and entitlements you've forfeit in rebelling against the ruler and arbiter of Necrovion. In actuality, rebels would be executed on sight. There's no way they could continue to reap the benefits of the land they left, even if they continued to see themselves as loyal to it.

"Man" up and act the part of a rebel. The fact that you even desire to take part shows weakness and a tad of hypocrisy.

[Roland]

Personally, I have no problem with not being able to receive a Necro. wish point for a quest (there is a price to pay for becoming a rebel). I do however have an issue with citienship being removed (as it kind of defeats the purpose becomming a rebel).
I have posted the "rebel rules below* as a refresher:

[2010-11-11 02:42:40 - Stage 10]

King and Citizen rules update

Rebel Citizens - official way to protest against land leadership

Rebel status can be set from citizenship page on the right of the interface
To switch to rebel you need a certain number of days as active citizen within that land.
Rebel status changes your tag and description and they wont be reverted after. It is a sacrifice for your cause.
Player drops from current alliance but remain citizens of the land
[b]Rebels cannot get excommunicated but need to obey land official rules[/b]
No land loyalty is gained while a rebel
Rebel status is cleared when they join an alliance (tag and description are reset)
Kings will receive items to supress rebels from talking in chat but they wont be able to suppress groups
If the percentage of rebels gets to high (exact percentage to be announced later), their demands, including elections, will be heard
A dedicated page for official land rules and king specific rules will be made public for each land separately
Using alts to increase the number of rebels of a land will be punished
Kings now have 4 lives

Good Luck with your first quest Ras:)

Edited December 6, 2010 by Roland

[Fyrd Argentus]

If Jester wishes to give wp codes to different quest builders depending on who will be allowed to participate in the quest, that is his right, but it should be clearly decided/agreed up front.

To withhold a wp to be awarded AFTER the quest has been run, just because of who actual won, would be very bad form indeed.

(Reply to Kafuuka below - I was not aware of this happening, but see DST's post below. Jester seems to be on the right path there, but I felt some clarification was in order, languages being what they are).

Edited December 7, 2010 by Fyrd Argentus

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Fyrd Argentus' timestamp='1291660498' post='74667']
To withhold a wp to be awarded AFTER the quest has been run, just because of who actual won, would be very bad form indeed.
[/quote]
Has this ever happened?

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Roland (but actually announcements)' timestamp='1291658754' post='74664']
[b]Rebels cannot get excommunicated but need to obey land official rules[/b]
[/quote]

The item "<land> Scepter of Excommunication" tosses a citizen in jail, while the item "<land> Writ of Revocation" removes citizenship. The ability to remove citizenship may be intentional, or it may not; that is why Jester posted it in the bugs section. It can be undone if it is unintentional.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Pipstickz

[Agis Asticles]

i fail to see what the rebels are complaining about...Roland has the right idea, HE at least knew what to expect...you cant just rebel and expect to be treated fairly. thats one of the main ideals of rebellion isnt it?

[dst]

[quote name='Kafuuka' timestamp='1291662833' post='74671']
Has this ever happened?
[/quote]

Oh yes! And I made a big fuss about it. But all that did was to damage the image of the quest creator. I should have made a bigger fuss...

[Indyra]

just my 2 cents on this since it's taking odd proportions

[quote]A rebel is a participant in a rebellion; or more generally, an individual who resists authority or control.[quote]

In this case Jester who is the King represents the authority and he is the one granting you citizenship. Yet after this he can't excommunicate .So this is a little contradictory as far as i see it, you are citizens because the King has allowed you to but you also are rebels means you work against the King and you expect him to treat you right ? As a rebel you deny the laws of the king and you try to make your own ( but maybe i'm misunderstanding this ) . When you became a rebel you should have considered the implications of being a rebel and the consequences . One of them is not being able to participate at some quest sponsored by the King whose authority you are trying to undermine - Now to make things clear

Do you expect to have the same rights as a loyal citizen who obeys the King and laws ? do you expect him to treat you fair just because you are a citizen ? do you expect him to stand and watch while you plot against him ? After all it's his right to fight back any way he can , fair or not. He used the means that he had ( not giving you a WP or denying you the right to enter a quest) , that;s all . There is no right or wrong when fighting a war even if it;s not an open one.

[Firsanthalas]

I'll also comment as a king.
There has to be a reason to remain loyal and a deterrent from going rebel.
If you can go rebel and then claim the benefits of regular loyal citizens and be immune from excommunication, then what is the point of remaining loyal?
By going rebel, you are working against the king. You really cannot expect the king to be nicey nicey to you for that. There has to be consequences.
Going rebel should be a serious action, with equally serious consequences. Otherwise, you will have people going rebel for reasons like being bored or trying it out for a laugh.
As it is I think that rebels have it far too handy right now. Other than a lack of WPs there seems to be very little else they lose and the king can do very little against them otherwise.
I would also say that imo, rebels should not be allowed join other lands, or at the very least suffer a penalty for doing so.
Why you might ask? Well simply put, rebels have the ability to bring negative attention on a king and a land. Anyone can go rebel, even if it is purely down to a personal issue with their king/queen. They can do it purely to cause trouble or out of spite. Then the king and land are stuck with that rebel until they decide to leave or apologise.
If they were not a rebel, the king could remove them from the land, or if they were in another land, he could approach the king of that land about their behaviour (ok, doesn't work for non-king lands, but in general they are supposed to be neutral). In either of these cases the rebel person would no longer be getting WPs from the king and the king would have options to deal with them.
So, if you are planning to go rebel, you should have a plan and you should be getting support for your cause. If you are simply one or two people railing against the king, then maybe you should be leaving the land and not rebelling in the first place? Remember, going rebel is a direct declaration against the king. That means its personal by nature. You are saying you want to remain in the land, but you don't want the king to govern anymore. So, your problem is with the king, not with the land.
I would also like to point out that anyone could go rebel, not because the king is doing a bad job, but because they feel that they want the crown for themselves.
If you want to stage a coup then there has to be risk. Right now, there seems to be very little. Kings seem to pretty much have to just let you try, they can't remove you once you go rebel.
I appreciate its not nice, but going rebel shouldn't be nice. Its ugly and so can the fallout.
Bottom line, if you go rebel, you are acting against the king (and to varying extents, the other citizens) and you can't expect the same treatment and liberties as those that are loyal.

[Jubaris]

Rebels have it handy? excuse me?

Rebel should have a harder time, cause King can do nothing to do them?! O_o well rebels can do nothing to a king
Firsanthalas, you said it totally from the side of a king without any objectivity or consideration to the other side, basically your argumentation equals zero.

[quote]
Well simply put, rebels have the ability to bring negative attention on a king and a land. Anyone can go rebel, even if it is purely down to a personal issue with their king/queen. They can do it purely to cause trouble or out of spite. Then the king and land are stuck with that rebel until they decide to leave or apologise.
[/quote]

and they can bring negative attention to themselves via rebellion. Turning a rebel isn't that productive. Take a look at Necro. Pample and her faction are rebels for... some time now. They profited absolutely nothing from this mess, and are stagnating... at least in those loyalty points you get for each activity day.
If a person has enough influence to hurt activities of the land's king via rebellion, that means that such player is certainly some kind of veteran or nearly a veteran, and that that person spent enough energy into his/her account, so, blocking your own progress, to partially halt King's is not that good of a deal.
If a player DOES do it out of spite as you said, then nobody will take that player seriously and no harm will be done to the kingdom/king.


You made a lengthy offtopic post there, and gained positive rep points by default-bots.

to make clear my opinion on the topic, tho:
I do vote that rebels can be banned of King's quest they rebelled against, it's illogical for the King to have a duty to reward a person that rebelled against him yet participates in his land-related-quests. It's up to the King.