Public Request Towards Council Regarding Wp

[Muratus del Mur]

I was planning to do this directly, but by making it a council request I allow it a second thought and maybe a variation of the rules its based on. Council can change it or deny it, as it thinks fit. Players can share their opinion here, maybe detailing points of view i missed.

I am requesting Council to consider [b]removing all wishpoints given without a declared reason[/b], on all periods. Whoever doesn't care to write at least a formal reason for wp reason doesn't deserve to waste our time in checking validity of that wp.

It should count as missing wishpoint anything too general like:
- blank
- filling spaces or characters
- things like "quest" or "nice" or "see pm" etc

Valid reasons are those that contain a trackable reference to a quest, like quest name, or rewarded action

If the wp reason is correct should not be judged, yet, i am only concerned if there is a reason or not.

After cleaning up garbage i intend to do a more detailed reason check.

Wp could also be marked as used so that their association with their owner and giver remains in db for further checking in the second cleanup wave.

[Metal Bunny]

Will this also be done retroactively, especially in the case of spent wp?

Also, I agree; I don't get why it is so hard not to write anything at all, for something that happens very rarely.
Giving a reason, is there for a reason, it's to provide internal control by independent groups. Kind of like internal affairs. Don't make me argue why this is important, if so, you fail at basic understanding of corruption.

[Shadowseeker]

I refer back to the old topic http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/6686-wps-gone-bad/

As well.

Death Ray Mya Celestia 576 Quest 01/03/10 06:24:11
Nimrodel Mya Celestia 571 Guardian quest 26/02/10 19:02:35
Firsanthalas Mya Celestia 570 Mentorship 26/02/10 18:53:38
Sharazhad Mya Celestia 569 Quality Mentoring 26/02/10 18:49:13
CrazyMike Mya Celestia 568 Completed the guardian only quest 26/02/10 18:46:43
Kouras sasha lilias 533 Helped to plan out a new story for me, helped lost puppy make a personal wix and completed the set tasks 29/01/10 13:13:00
mcvitie phantasm 473 Secret Reindrach drawing that Aelis did.A gift given for a very special time of year. With happy holidays for all 24/12/09 16:23:29
Kamisha *Sagewoman* 395 For having the guts and ball to apply and campaign for Kingship and to gracefully withdrawn knowing the odds were against him 22/10/09 16:58:46

13/02/10 07:35:44 One WP from Grido to cutler, saying help with the labyrinth.

26/03/10 04:10:57 One WP from Mya Celestia, saying from Grido for the Impossible Labyrinth. To cutler.

Quote of mur:

2 wispoints (yes i am making an exception by giving 2 at one time, dont do the same ever)


This above is a copy paste summary of all things mentioned, some are/are not acceptable, depends.

[phantasm]

to reiderate upon this posting AGAIN. This is copy/pasted from the discussion that SS linked. Further discussions can be found there. I felt it was important to repost this, especially with it being so close to Christmas again. Me and McVitie do not get along well at all, and I often find her presence rather irritating. So this is no way in standing up for her, it is standing up for why I gave the WP that was brought up. It was a detailed reason why I gave the WP, along with the low rating.



"I agree they shouldn't be handed out all Willy Nilly like. I handed out ONE WP, for what I feel, is a good reason. Also keep in mind the scoring of WPs. If every WP is handed out for the hardest quests you can come up with, then why is there even a rating scale? It's there to mark the ease, effort of the WP earned. I gave that WP a very low rating as all she had to do to earn it was partake in Aelis Secret Reigndrach. To me really thats not much different then a quest, i'll be it an easy one. It was a preplanned, organized event, meant for fun for all. Are WPs never handed out at festival times for fun, and easy little games? I honestly don't know because often times I am not available when the festivals are taking place (during hours i work etc).

Any of you remember waking up to Christmas morning, and your parents getting you exactly what you wanted? A Wish Come True. I feel no less as guilty then they would. I make no apologies for the WP being handed out, but do see that many disagree with it, and the likely hood of me ever handing out anything for Christmas again besides some coin is very slim. "

[Chewett]

I like this idea

But what would happen if the user has already used it? My suggestion would be to remove the most recently used wish (as the "used wish" amount would have been affected by the fake WP). that would then remove their "bonus"

Begin the Witchhunt

[Amoran Kalamanira Kol]

While I see the benefit of checking wish points to ensure that they are valid, and ensuring that they were in fact given for a considerable reason...

I do not see the benefit of taking away past or already spent wish points that were used say, two years ago when the rules on wish point rewards weren't entirely clear.

If you are going to remove wish points with terrible reasons behind them, remove them during a time when the rules were well defined, where people should know better. During the time of RPCs there was no doubt a lot of (what we would currently consider) wish point abuse, and that mostly is because the rules were blurry.

I believe that if you start taking away already spent wish points that were gathered during an entirely different time period in MD's history (before kings, before well defined rules regarding rewards, before MD had a set of well defined rules concerning abuse and other things), it might be very very damaging.

I would rather something like this be handled with a sense of fairness, and see the council review wish points that were given out in recent times, like.. this year (or whenever Mur made the announcement about strict rules for wish points) rather than older wish points that were spent or given ages ago.

As for "witch hunts" you all likely know my opinion of those, so I won't bother with speaking of it.

[b]Edit: I found the announcement relating to strict rules for wish points.[/b]

[quote][2009-10-15 00:51:26 - Alpha 9]
Added to the rules: WP exchange is striclty forbidden. Players that will exchange wishpoints will get seriously penalised or baned. Wishpoints should be granted only for good and well documented reasons. Any WP rewarded with an unclear or unsufficient reason can be canceled if found and the reward giver investigated. (this rule will apply soon for the upcomming WP rewarding features that will replace the RPC WP rewarding.) [/quote]

My suggestion would be.. to review wish points that were given during the time of this announcement (10/15/2009) to the current day (12/05/2010).

This doesn't exempt certain cases (like the case of Mya Celestia and the guardian's quest and the wish point fiasco with cutler's labyrinth) in which case I would also state that.. they should have a chance to explain themselves, or be given a chance to state a detailed reason as to why they gave out said wish point.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Amoran Kalamanira Kol

[Fyrd Argentus]

Can the offenders go back and correct their omission of a reason?

[Shadowseeker]

The interface itself states the reasons can't be corrected. That's why a few minutes of typing should also be accounted for, no?

[Mya Celestia]

[color="#8B0000"][font="Palatino Linotype"]It's been nearly a year yet those wps keep coming back to haunt me. Here is the description I would have put at the time had I realized that I could have (I know what it says, but it's a visual handicap on my part)

"Guardian only quest: a series of requirements to reveal the inner thoughts, feelings, and devotion of the Guardians."

"Mentorship: showing the most devotion to expanding the Guardians. Going above and beyond the call of duty to improve the ranks."

As for the one I gave on Grido's behalf, that was his description that he had me put in the box.

I haven't given a wp since. I was going to give a wp for Sharazhad's Movember quest, but I'm not sure I will now. I don't want someone else to risk losing their wp because I can't write a good reason.

This is one of the few things I've ever been involved with that doing what your superior tells you or helping someone gets you tortured and punished.[/font][/color]

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1291559217' post='74507']
If the wp reason is correct should not be judged, yet, i am only concerned if there is a reason or not.
[/quote]
For all the people preemptively giving reasons... it's not time for that yet.

I can't remember having seen a single WP without reasons ever since i got the details feature. Which is good, no? And if I'm right, that also means it's useless to consider only recent WPs. In any case it is not punishment, but seizing of ill acquired goods. Although to me it seems a bit sad that a quester can get penalized for something the creator should have bothered to spend half a minute on.

[Muratus del Mur]

[quote]I do not see the benefit of taking away past or already spent wish points that were used say[/quote]

There is no pleasure for me in punishing people, or removing things from them, nevertheless it is important that abuse is punished if i am unable to prevent it.

With wishpoints getting increasingly important for game dynamics, such things are important to be checked in order to prevent them from happening again. My option is clear, mercy-less removal of any doubtfull wishpoints. There are plenty of wp given for fake quests and/or third person intermediary, removing those without a reason is just the nice part of this cleanup.

This time there won't be any punishments to those giving or having such wp. This is a cleanup. But like with any significant value, expect verification to be more strict. Afterall if i will value a wp to 40$ equivalent or even 20$, abusing them is worse than fake payments or alt bonus abuse tehnically speaking.

Of course i won't let you go back and fix reasons you missed, thats the point, you should care about such things when you do them not only when you get caught. I don't remember to receive any pm or email from any of you requesting a wp reason edit because you missed one..now you suddenly want to fix this? "ha..ha.. "


How used wp will be handeled is up to the council, i just care that something will be done about random wp gifts.
Like i said the next thing to investigate is 3rd party "wp laundry" , you know very well what i mean, when your quests starts and end with just the people you needed to reward..without being any real chance for anyone else to participate or win at all. My rules were simple, give a documented reason, be honest about why you give a wp and give it for a "reasonable" reason. The meaning of reasonable is subjective enough, you could have given them for things honestly put, but should have never faked quests to pretend there is a reason for your wp trades.


I am still thinking if to ask council to handle the second wave of cleanups or to allow myself the pleasure to decide in a very subjective way what i consider a valid wp and what not. It seems not only exagerated, but you continued to do so even after there were signs it might get ugly.

In the future this will be handled in a different way, sadly i can't allow this freedom on how to award wishpoints anymore.
I am not yet sure how this will be but you will find out. I am thinking to discuss this with everybody that I consider to have managed wp awarding decently according to the moral rules i expected.

[Kamisha]

Although this might mean the loss of one of my wp which are as follows:
*Sagewoman*on 22/10/09
For having the guts and ball to apply and campaign for Kingship and to gracefully withdrawn knowing the odds were against him.
Blackwood Foreston 11/05/10
UTOB second place winner entry reward

I have to agree to this clean up. With WP for days coming in there are a lot of undeserved wish points out there. Add that together with the extras and you have WP totally devalued. Then there are people dishing out the dollar values for people to reward them. If i am undeserving so be it just so long as everybody else who is undeserving takes there hit.

[Firsanthalas]

The problem I have with this is that its already been raised months and months back.
If there was a time to take retroactive action it was then, not now.
I'm sorry, but this feels like dragging up stuff again and again. Yes, perhaps there have been abuses with WPs, but there have also been other WP abuses not mentioned here that were also brought up.
I think that there needs to be a proper set of rules and ideas for WPs. Not all aspects of WPs can be governed simply by rules. There will always be an element of people having to show some common sense I fear. That being said, it gets really tiresome seeing stuff being regurgitated repeatedly.
I know Mur has said about punishing people retroactively before. I agree that people should be punished if caught, even at a later date. However, I also think that when something is brought up it should be dealt with then, not left and then brought up yet again at a later date. If that is the case, then when does it end?
I'm sorry, but this kind of thing serves no purpose other than to piss people off in my opinion. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but if there is a problem, deal with it at the time it comes to light. Don't sweep it under the carpet and drag it back out at some later date. It stops people from moving forwards and getting on with things and to be honest, it starts to smack of punitive action rather than actual justice.
Most law systems have rules about trying someone for the same crime twice or crimes that have gone unpunished for lengthy periods. We've already had at least one person remark about judgement being delayed to the point of uselessness.
If an issue or a crime arise, deal with it then and deal with it speedily and clearly. Otherwise, you're making it hard for anyone to take any kind of judgement as fair or indeed meaningful.
And before anyone makes any comment about life not being fair, justice implies that there is an element of fairness. There is a wrong, so there is a step to correct the wrong in some way. And MD is not real life, its supposed to be a game and games are supposed to have fairness in built.
There is another issue here. And that is that some people have done nothing wrong as far as I can see. Take Sage and Kamisha. I love Sage to bits, but that award was plain stupid in my opinion. That being said, Kamisha didn't do anything wrong. He got a WP (that he shouldn't really have be given), but he didn't do anything untoward or criminal. Should Sage be punished for giving it? Again, I don't think so. I don't believe that either of them were best buds or anything and there wasn't some scheme to gift WPs to each other in exchange. It was a dumb WP to give out. I don;t think it was in anyway underhanded or malicious. While some people may feel otherwise, doing something dumb or being dumb is not a crime last time I checked. If it was, we'd all be guilty, because we all have a moment every now and then where we do something totally dumb (If you feel that you don't ever have a blonde moment as some people call it, then you need to either start a religion with you as a saint or messiah figure, or go get yourself checked by a shrink. And if you are still really sure you have never had one, well relax and wait, because it will happen to you at some point in your life and more often when you start getting older ).

I'm sorry if this seems like a total rant, but we've been there and got the t-shirt already. Move forwards, not backwards.

(edit: spelling error)

Edited December 6, 2010 by Firsanthalas

[Pipstickz]

Firs, this isn't about punishing people, this is about fixing the mistakes they have made. That's what they are; mistakes. If anyone wants to get angry with these people for making mistakes, then what does it say about them?

Besides, Mur was one person doing everything. Now there's the council, and they can do the work of at least a couple Murs.

[Sharazhad]

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1291586568' post='74561']
There is no pleasure for me in punishing people, or removing things from them, nevertheless it is important that abuse is punished if i am unable to prevent it.[/quote]
[color="#2e8b57"][i]
@ pip: Seems like it is.[/i][/color]

[Malaikat Maut]

I haven't read all of these posts, but my immediate thought is this: I've never abused any system in MD, and I'd not like to be punished for the remiss or laziness of others. I don't believe that my WPs lack a description, but if they did it would be entirely out of my hands, although I earned them fairly.

That doesn't seem right to me...

[Kafuuka]

I agree with you Malaikat, it's not fair. It is however also not fair that some people got away with abuse. It was also unfair towards me that back in the RPCs days one infamous dude got himself banned in the time between me completing his quest and him finding the time to reward me. He apologized for that later and nowadays I have relatively much WPs so it doesn't affect me as much as someone who never got WPs. That being the case, it is currently about very very old WPs afaik, I haven't seen any undetailed WPs in the logs recently. We all suspect that WPs for days will be introduced soon, so if WPs are being removed now, those affected will probably still end up with more WPs after the changes. Their "punishment" will consist of only getting what they deserve and not more.
Maybe that is also one of the reasons this is happening now instead of several months ago. Mind you, even in real life it often takes multiple years before a trial even starts.

Also, now that WPs are being inspected and the council is probably reading this, I'd like to ask to think of the 25 last rewarded limit. More and more WPs in the logs are being given by person X to person Y for quest A by person Z. It takes the charm out of WPs a bit. eg. a WP rewarded by MB just sounds way more awesome.