Environmental Reactivity

[Aysun]

^ I think a significant thing is that MD does not have the mechanics one would normally first think upon to try and use to cause havoc- we cannot raid a place, we cannot kill anyone, we cannot destroy structures, we cannot set up destructive structures to cause damage to opposition, etc. Basically, we can sit around, plan, foment, and complain at the gates and that's about it. I know one person had an idea to leak liquid dust about no man's land simply to cause havoc, but how would that be done outside of roleplay that a handful of people may or may not see or even take seriously? Such a thing would not even be reflected in the landscape without Mur deciding to do it if he even wanted to. That's the reliance issue- in order to make a real impression on something, it requires someone else with the scripting permissions and the inclination to help us affect things, and I can only really think of two people who might have that kind of sway. I think it would be helpful, and not just in a rebellion system sense but in a larger realm type sense, that if, say, a certain resource(s) is gathered that it triggers in the system the ability to do something related to that gathering- such as collecting enough....I don't know- let's say wodin's seal- if someone has all the pieces in their inventory you'd have a button or something saying 'summon wodin'. The issue with how things are now is that in order to try something like that today you'd have to send a message to Mur saying, "Oh, by the way, we're doing this at such-and-such time on the clock, so would it be ok if you made this work?" instead of it being within the player's power to just do it themselves after the effort of gathering the pieces themselves. And this could be applied to anything- gathering bits of anything to trigger something specific. The issue right now is that the only thing really player-controlled is quest making, otherwise everything else goes through a really heavy filter before it's even considered being put into action and it's hard to move with that sort of thing.

To add, I don't think this is 'robotic automation' either or that it takes away from a single thing, but that it adds more interaction, more goals that can actually be accomplished if an individual or group works towards it without outside influence saying, "You can do this, or not do that," in order for them to proceed- they can just go for it, and others can try to stop them or not. I think that sort of interaction would add not only another dimension to player interaction but kingdom relations as well.

As for the rebels, the idea is that a certain number of rebels would trigger an election, but there is no set number- or maybe no number at all, and to what sort of ratio?- and a trigger isn't going to happen automatically, someone with the ability has to come by and be inclined to see it and start it. I suppose they could also see it and go, "Ehhhhh, no." even if the numbers are high enough, and how are we to know when there's no set number for the sides to keep track of outside of personal tallies? It's all incredibly subjective, I think, and extremely hard to work with although we are trying, and because we ARE trying to work with the current system it IS taking awhile, but I can at least say that we ARE doing things even if they aren't quite so obvious to the public eye just yet.

Still, this is all very off-topic to the topic of alts which has already been sorted out, I think, so my apologies for the length of this post. It's just an interesting problem to try and work with and/or around, I think, and as a rebel I've been equally intrigued, as well as just as frustrated, with the challenge.


[size="1"]edited for commas.[/size]

Edited December 16, 2010 by Aysun

[Jubaris]

I agree with Aysun, and it's something I've been troubled with for a lot of time as well, and I think many of MD's people feel the same.

If there was a possibility of taking certain choices that take risk of you losing something of importance, while there's a chance of gaining something of importance in interaction with others, community would have more action and radical moves, rather than some kind of forced status quo.
For now, to gain any feedback you need to be spotted by the "right" people...

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

If we are going too far from the point then someone can splice it. I think the topic slides into this anyway myself.

Aysun - Your post is important because it is a viewpoint I have heard...quite possibly...more than any other viewpoint, in all of MD. It is important because it demonstrates the gap that causes frustration for a lot of people.

Keep pushing for more automation and you are just pushing for walls to be built, walls you won't know will exist because you won't even consider there is something for a wall to be there for anymore.

First - yes, someone has to hit the button, but do you really think whoever is charged with that would be a biased party to the degree you are suggesting? If someone really believes there is no hope, then they are right, for them there wont be any.

Think about when things have happened in MD. Consider how and why they happened, what activated the moment of fully realised conception? Try to put aside what you hear, or what you think you know, and just think about that, think about what you see not what you hear, not assumptions, not links, literally what you witnessed. I'll give you an example, how did we get Bob healed recently? Someone might have said, oh, it's Z, so he must have organised it with a higher power. Yet that is an assumption, and I will tell you now, it's wrong. So consider what actually happened. Build your winning potion from elements of success.

Have some keys I've handed out before at various times that keep getting burried, a secret hidden in audible noise if you like. If it were me leading the rebellion, I would not be doing things behind curtains and in the shadows. I might do that for a while, but it would be for a very specific purpose that would lead to... A rebellion is a side of a see-saw, you need to tip the balance in your favour. The only way to do this is with weight. What adds weight and how would you achieve that in an obvious and visible way? How would you build enough energy to cause an explosion? It isn't about one man running into a field and knocking down a castle, nor is it about five men doing it, you need an army to do that for it to have any impact. It also isn't about seemingly cleverly concocted plans with devious storylines. You don't actually need to know the percentages and the ratios if you understand what I've been saying properly. It isn't easy either, because you need to have a constant. Remember, a rebellion is another word for war, and keep in mind to consider all people, this is a small world, any corner of it is everyone's corner.

This will probably just fall on deaf ears again, or be used for a moment, maligned and tossed in the bin, but I say it for that tiny tiny cricket that listens and realises something they once knew and maybe didn't even know they knew, then somehow forgot.

As my Dad says, go move the world.

Z

[Tarquinus]

I started to post this on the [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/8711-rebels-being-alts/page__view__findpost__p__75599"]alts being rebels thread[/url] and realized I'd be better served to start a new thread entirely.

[quote name='Aysun' timestamp='1292535891' post='75599']The issue right now is that the only thing really player-controlled is quest making, otherwise everything else goes through a really heavy filter before it's even considered being put into action and it's hard to move with that sort of thing.

To add, I don't think this is 'robotic automation' either or that it takes away from a single thing, but that it adds more interaction, more goals that can actually be accomplished if an individual or group works towards it without outside influence saying, "You can do this, or not do that," in order for them to proceed- they can just go for it, and others can try to stop them or not. I think that sort of interaction would add not only another dimension to player interaction but kingdom relations as well.
[/quote]
I wholeheartedly agree, and moreover I have always found it troubling that "quests", "roleplay", and "reality" are often treated by this community as separate things. For this reason I have always wanted to focus on writing "quests" that involve both the roleplay of the characters and the game mechanics of MD (spells, duels, etc.) [i]in the stories of what player characters are doing in the game.[/i] It can be done without a back-end mechanism as you suggest, but it's difficult. You have to have:

[list]
[*]A story people care about
[*]A means of conflict resolution
[*]Cooperation from players - I agree that if condition A is met, I will do X, but if condition B is met, then you will do (or submit to) action Y
[*]The ability to coordinate players across time zones all over the planet
[/list]
That's so difficult as to be prohibitive in most cases, but a major source of the problem is that worldwide changes, such as the coronation of monarchs, only occur if they are agreed on by the majority of the player community and have the backing of Mur (and now the Council and other powers that be). However, Aysun, I'm not sure what to suggest from a programming/design standpoint. I have toyed with a system of injuries received from duels and [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/7184-mya-celestia-is-dead/page__view__findpost__p__61418"]other fighting rules[/url], but these ideas haven't gained much traction as I can't think of anything worth fighting over that would involve people willing to stake aspects of their roles - property, freedom, or other details - on a situation whose outcome is uncertain.

I welcome other suggestions. In general, I think it's best to try to think of solutions that don't require Mur or Rendril to make code changes: but if code changes are warranted, let them be framed in such a way that coding them will be relatively straightforward.

[i]Edited to correct for autism[/i]

Edited December 16, 2010 by Tarquinus

[Burns]

To me, automatisms such as injuries after lost battles or being robbed by someone who is bigger than you is very insensible. Just imagine how easily those systems could, and would, be abused.
If anything that goes into the bigger aspects of your character development would be part of a system, you'd soon find yourself ruled by a few people.

Aysun and the rebels might find it funny if they could assassinate the king, but trust on thing, if such a thing gets possible, Jester will assassinate them first. And if it got implemented globally, they'd be dead before they even noticed.

Put it that way: As long as the most useful buttons are not in your hands, this is a free world. The moment they get in public hands, this is the world of dst.


A lot of things MUST NOT be run by system, because any veteran player can easily fulfill any criteria to do something, unless they get insane to such a point that they are practically not possible, like, dunno, beat a drachorn to death with an unholy priest.

Things of such an importance as a rebellion, a permanent murder, or any lasting change to anybody's character, must be decided by the person it falls back on, like the decision to become a rebel, or by somebody who sees MD on a different level, without considering who gains what out of a decision and only deciding on obvious facts in MD, things that the general population has access to. Nobody searches for your plans in hidden places and carries them out because they sound wise, it's up to you to carry them out, and THEN, something will or won't happen, depending on how well it's done.
As long as people ignore you and the things you do, you haven't done things properly.

And always when you call for more automatisms and 'goals an individual or group can actually accomplish without outside help', bear in mind that anything you and your group can do in a robotic system can also be done by any other individual or group in MD, just by pushing the right button and meeting the right criteria. I'm very certain that you wouldn't really want that.

[Jubaris]

Perhaps, we have to do certain things ourselves.
I was thinking to start some events where player has a chance of gaining something, while on the other hand have a risk of losing something, all based on rules agreed upon the start of an event.

Something like the AL, but this would be a story all resulted of player's action feedback based on the established rules.

I already have a starting plot that would lead to creating others, but I'm having issues finding way how to test has the player accomplished the task or not (for example, if a task is to steal an item from another person, there needs to be certain way without violating the rule for cheating other players, perhaps if players know who are all the participants of the event and they agreed upon the chance to get cheated, but if they know who plays the event, the element of surprise is out).

If people are up to something like that, I would like us to start that kind of an event. Only, some help with suggestions is needed

[Tarquinus]

Just to play devil's advocate:

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1292569154' post='75607']
To me, automatisms such as injuries after lost battles or being robbed by someone who is bigger than you is very insensible. Just imagine how easily those systems could, and would, be abused.
If anything that goes into the bigger aspects of your character development would be part of a system, you'd soon find yourself ruled by a few people.[/quote]
But that's how it is now, no? Battles at MP5 are largely dominated by the wealthy, as you yourself pointed out in one of the last tournaments I sponsored. Apart from the wealthy are those with a large amount of time to spend grinding. Both groups can keep themselves more or less untouchable to the majority of the player populace.

We know that if a thing can be abused, it will. But that's not necessarily a reason to kill an idea in infancy. I respect MD a very great deal for being unlike the MMORPG mainstream, but I think some "anchoring" elements would benefit the game. Inventories changed the player dynamic a bit when they were introduced - for the first time, we had items that were indisputably "real" in the game world. I know it's an apples-to-oranges comparison, but the fact is that at least one lethal item already exists in MD. Permanent death? That way lies madness, I agree. Temporary death - and the attendant "ghost" state - has proven amusing on more than one occasion, arguably because of its rarity, but amusing all the same. Stat damage can already be dealt a number of ways, and it's hardly as crippling as it might seem to a neophyte.

MD is an evolving game, and Aysun ponders the way it might be encouraged to evolve. When it comes to tying down player characters to the game world - making them [i]responsible[/i] for what happens in it in a systemic way - I agree with her. There are huge risks, sure. People will get discouraged and leave when they find themselves losing things they worked to build. But that's the way of any change. As an example, when the heretic archers' principle-draining test was going on, Keith's Darkness score was completely drained and replaced, involuntarily, with Time, a change that made powerful tokens such as Darksky all but useless to him. People who want to see the game continue to evolve and improve will stick around. People who are going to get upset about trivia will leave. I feel pretty strongly that MD could use encouragement and support for interactive quests. For player-authored quests to be engaging, they must have context and meaning. Without such conditions, they become - at best - an entertaining series of puzzles.

I must add that roleplaying is a perilous enterprise for some people. It's analogous to LSD in that some people just shouldn't ever do it. Character roles can become treasured beyond all proportion to their meaning in the scheme of life. That's unfortunate, but it is to be expected (and is actually rather flattering to a writer of roleplaying scenarios; if your adventure/investigation/whatever has that much emotional resonance, you've done something right. But some people will just freak out when their characters die or are maimed, period, and that's unavoidable). That hazard, like some of the symbols Mur employs, is part of the risk of playing the game. I say: let go of the wall and enjoy the sensation of vertigo.

[dst]

[quote]The problem with this 'human element' is that it is not reliable if the people using it must rely on an outside person to *maybe* do something in response.
The people themselves WANT to do something, but how can they when the thing they want to do relies on an outside, perhaps indifferent, person?
[/quote]


You're a hypocrite Aysun. Did not Mur listen to you during the whole Necro drama? Did he not take your idea about the rebels and implemented it?
Indifferent? Shish! Please, show me a game where you can go to the creator(s) and do what you did here.


[quote]Are the people wanting to do something not human? Therefore no 'human element' is lost- it is only stifled by lack of ability to properly act due to reliance on unreliable elements.[/quote]

I'm lost....what do you mean by unreliable elements?

[quote]The issue with how things are now is that in order to try something like that today you'd have to send a message to Mur saying, "Oh, by the way, we're doing this at such-and-such time on the clock, so would it be ok if you made this work?" instead of it being within the player's power to just do it themselves after the effort of gathering the pieces themselves.[/quote]

Oh really? You have to message Mur? Then how come lots of players were able to trigger things WITHOUT "divine" intervention? Last war was started and conducted by players ONLY!
You know? I think you are lazy and you wait for mighty Mur to spoon feed you.


[quote]As for the rebels, the idea is that a certain number of rebels would trigger an election, but there is no set number- or maybe no number at all, and to what sort of ratio?- and a trigger isn't going to happen automatically, someone with the ability has to come by and be inclined to see it and start it.[/quote]

Err...find Mur's post about rebels and read it again. I think you either did not read it well or you chose to not see certain things he said.


[quote]but I can at least say that we ARE doing things even if they aren't quite so obvious to the public eye just yet.[/quote]

Wait...how am I suppose to know what you're doing if you're hiding? Personally all I saw you doing in game is having cyber sex with Rask. And all I see you do in the forum is rant about Jester and complain how "the system is not helping you".


[quote]For now, to gain any feedback you need to be spotted by the "right" people... [/quote]
Yeah, right...

Edited December 17, 2010 by dst

[Indyra]

[quote]we cannot raid a place, we cannot kill anyone, we cannot destroy structures, we cannot set up destructive structures to cause damage to opposition,[/quote]
does MD really looks like WoWto you Aysun? now really ? as much respect as i have for you , who do you think you are to complain about these features? This Game is designed to be in a certain matter , just the way it is ....when you play on FB to whom to you complain about this things and most important ..does anyone answer?

[quote]Basically, we can sit around, plan, foment, and complain at the gates and that's about it[/quote] is your mind that limited ? Some of the players managed to do quite impressive things without doing any of this .

[quote]don't know- let's say wodin's seal- if someone has all the pieces in their inventory you'd have a button or something saying 'summon wodin'[/quote] do you even have the idea what those seals are and what's their purpose ?

[quote]The issue with how things are now is that in order to try something like that today you'd have to send a message to Mur [/quote] did you try to do anything without complain that would really mean something to this world and you haven;t been noticed ? do you really think you need Mur for this? No, all you need is people around you not the "right" ones in the way you mean it but the right ones for your actions

[quote]As for the rebels, the idea is that a certain number of rebels would trigger an election[/quote]
Again is all this in order for your purpose as a rebel? is this the hidden goal ? you could have said that in the begging without making such a fuss about "automatic system"

[quote]It's all incredibly subjective, I think, and extremely hard to work with although we are trying[/quote]
and what ? everything is subjective! do you expect things to be easy ? and if they were would you consider things as interesting as they are ? what will be your personal satisfaction if everything came on a silver plate ?


i usally support people who try to make a difference, but don;t mix thing please. you can;t change the way of a game is built just because you want to make a difference . This isn;t GTA to rob someone or shoot them or break in their homes and put a graffiti on the wall. If you really want all this you really should reconsider why you play MD

[Yrthilian]

Interesting how this has come about.

Regards the system automation.

if you look closer you will find that there is much more automation than you realise. You used the Wodin seal as an example
to what could be done. Have you asked the people that hold that seal how it works? I guess not but then again you may not be told
any ways. As the seal has a secret that only the holders and a few others know.

As it was brought up.
There is a Guild in the realm that create items and myself. It takes a lot of work to gain such an ability like that. This wont happen over night
well most things wont. Especially the big things. I get tired of reading the same forum moaning about this system and that system. A system gets put
into place when enough people back it. This has been seen time and time again. In most cases yes it involved someone with the access to push the big button
and there are reasons for that.

Regards the rebel system

It got put into place and in my opinion it works. YOU do not need to know any ratios or set numbers as they are easy to manipulate once you know them.
So why should they be visible? I dont get this need to know the numbers as they will always change because of player activity and many other factors
that would need to be taken into account.

In regards automation

there are reasons many things are not automated and i am sure they are very valid ones too. If we all waited for something to be complete many of us would not be
here. Some of use choose to use their own character history to gain some things or to make things happen. Look at me. I worked hard to gain access to golemus and
succeeded, the same for my item creation ability and i work hard to try and gain other things. I have also been one of the most know people to be involved in wars
that didn't need the powers that be to press the big red button.

So in short make things happen and dont moan about it until you have tried really hard and exhausted ALL options.
if your work is seen yes by someone whom has the access then it will happen but you wont been seen if you hide in the corner
you need to be active and out and about with the public to be seen. as the saying goes

OUT OF SITE OUT OF MIND

[phantasm]

I think DST and Indyra have said very good points. Though some in their own aggressive way

I have found over the past few years of playing MD, that the more you complain about not getting your way, the more you don't get it. It like a child in a store whining for a box of cereal, or some toy out on display. The store puts those things out for the children to see and want, but most mothers don't get that toy because of the child's whining. Now as the child grows up, they learn that if they behave themselves and perhaps hint that the toy sure is a nice one. The mother is much more likely to get that toy out of the child's good behavior and effort to be mature about it.

MD is like that store. There are so many more things out in the game to be discovered or re-discovered, should the right maturity and thought process go into it. Mur and now the "secret society" as i like to call them:D, are like the mother. Speaking in Mur terms only, he sees much more then any of us usually think he sees. He waits for you to show the proper criteria that you are ready for the 'gift'. Each 'gift' has its own criteria and you must prove that you are mature enough for such a thing. So usually the more whining done, especially in forums, the more whatever you are looking for is usually delayed. Of course there is a HUGE difference between whining, and constructive ideals, such as the rebellion system.

I'm not trying to be rude and call you a whiner, or anyone for that matter. I'm just trying to show an analogy and a reason why MANY people don't get what they are wanting. Just as many children in those stores don't get what they want.

[Jubaris]

[quote name='phantasm' timestamp='1292592396' post='75623']
I think DST and Indyra have said very good points. Though some in their own aggressive way

I have found over the past few years of playing MD, that the more you complain about not getting your way, the more you don't get it. It like a child in a store whining for a box of cereal, or some toy out on display. The store puts those things out for the children to see and want, but most mothers don't get that toy because of the child's whining. Now as the child grows up, they learn that if they behave themselves and perhaps hint that the toy sure is a nice one. The mother is much more likely to get that toy out of the child's good behavior and effort to be mature about it.

MD is like that store. There are so many more things out in the game to be discovered or re-discovered, should the right maturity and thought process go into it. Mur and now the "secret society" as i like to call them:D, are like the mother. Speaking in Mur terms only, he sees much more then any of us usually think he sees. He waits for you to show the proper criteria that you are ready for the 'gift'. Each 'gift' has its own criteria and you must prove that you are mature enough for such a thing. So usually the more whining done, especially in forums, the more whatever you are looking for is usually delayed. Of course there is a HUGE difference between whining, and constructive ideals, such as the rebellion system.

I'm not trying to be rude and call you a whiner, or anyone for that matter. I'm just trying to show an analogy and a reason why MANY people don't get what they are wanting. Just as many children in those stores don't get what they want.
[/quote]

continuing your analogy for Mur being mother and us being children, perhaps Aysun stated that she would prefer if the system in the game was set like we're 'fresh adults' who are supposed to make their own way in life, and not 'kids' that easily come into the situation to 'whine' cause "mum likes older brother more than me".

[awiiya]

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1292604388' post='75630']
continuing your analogy for Mur being mother and us being children, perhaps Aysun stated that she would prefer if the system in the game was set like we're 'fresh adults' who are supposed to make their own way in life, and not 'kids' that easily come into the situation to 'whine' cause "mum likes older brother more than me".
[/quote]

If everyone acted like one, then this would be a game of fresh adults. We set the tone.

Awi

[Jubaris]

but "mum" decides who is the adult? x)

[phantasm]

did your mother decide when you were an adult? Don't all parents set the standard for what adult is? Yes some parent's aren't adults, but our elders set the standard. So in a way yes, Mur and the 'secret society' set the standards of adulthood by being the adults themselves. I assure you that many of us are viewed as adults. This comes back to the one bad apple ruins the bushel. It only takes a few whiners to ruin the system.

Just as we talk about the "rich" abusing the system if it were set up the way Aysun described, it same is said in the opposite. The few who act childish would abuse being treated like adults. This in society as a whole is proven quite well. Many people that are considered "adults" simply because of age requirements are more childish then a lot of minors. It degrades the system overall as a whole and therefore get the "Theory of the Degradation of Society" that I always talk about. I feel that the game standard itself is meant to keep from such to happen as much as possible, since we all know that it willl happen to a degree as a whole.

[Jubaris]

you just described the system of the privileged.

It's perfectly fine if the mum praises those she likes, with them gaining prestige and such, social status, but it's different when mum praises one son fighting his brother, and with a praise, she adds a few extra baseball bats as a reward. That is direct interference in our world. With that, mum also adds an indirect note, something along this way: you can try whatever you want to do as long as you don't mess with my privileged boy's assigned position!
Rather than having a certain system, that any brother can go along, and fight for it or whatever with same terms the others have (of course that the older brother has advantage of experience, but that's realistic), you have a system where subjective mum, no matter how cool the mum is, has a privileged son.

[awiiya]

Can this mum analogy die? It's being taken to extremes. Use your own words please.

Awi

[Rask]

[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1292539818' post='75602']
If it were me leading the rebellion, I would not be doing things behind curtains and in the shadows.[/quote]

I just want to voice mt agreement. I find all the behind the scenes activity hightly frustrating and discouraging. It is not just with the rebellion either. It is little wonder that the world seems dead, if no one is willing or prepared to do what they do for the world to see.

[Ravenstrider]

You know what we need? More cupcakes. And some milk to wash it all down.

[Curiose]

The only reason why the rebels [in my opinion, and how I see it] are losing favor, and are being labeled stagnant is because you're doing [i]nothing[/i] to the public eye. All I see at the gate, are people simply sitting there-- pondering, and criticizing what is going to be done of the rebels.

-You- wanted to do something, so do something. You have resources, and you can gain favor outside of Necrovion. There is power in numbers, and the more voices you have the more you have the option to get something DONE. I see time biding, and complaining.

So what if Jester finds out your plans?
So what if you fail in your first attempt?

That's what this is for. Learning. If you can't even stick your neck out farther than being called a rebel, then you don't deserve to be called a rebel. Wearing the tag, and stamping your feet for your king to step down is wasting your time. Be proactive-- WORK together, Rally together, whatever it is. You have no idea how many options there are for you, and yet you sit here twiddling your thumbs, hiding, waiting for AUTOMATION to do all the work. No one ever said being a rebel was going to be easy. No one ever said Mur was going to hand things to you on a silver platter. No one damned well said you'd get your way.

If you want your system to work, take initiative, and take responsibility.

[Aysun]

I had no idea my post was made into a separate thread- whoever made it could've given me a heads up as I've got a lot of catching up to do, but even so I'll do my best to address some of the larger ideas presented; forgive me if I do not get too detailed.

@dst: With regards to the rebel system and Mur, I was in a position for the first time ever to actually have some sort of say regarding the current state of my character. If I had not been in that position and proposed the idea, who knows how seriously it might've been taken? Considering the drastic situation, it happened to fit the event to the letter which I think is a rather rare occurrence. I count myself extremely lucky that Mur even gave a second thought to my idea- at the time, my only purpose in sharing it was to share an outside perspective that occurred to me after a good amount of time. As for 'cyber sex with Rask' you blow this extremely out of proportion- there was one vague line of a personal nature and that was about it. I'd personally rather roleplay in detail something more productive. Also, the war you've mentioned, to my knowledge, happend a very long time ago- at least over 8 months ago I can say for certain, and perhaps even longer.

@Indyra: No, I do not think this is WoW, and I do agree that MD has a purpose, but we must remember that it is a purpose that is directed by a single person- Mur- and thus the vitality of the Land often depends on his actions within it. When Mur is not directing events or closely watching others to trigger what might seem interesting, things are rather still. When everything, for the most part, rides on the actions and thoughts of one person alone, what then? I remember at one point Mur saying he would retire from MD to some capacity and it seemed rather long-term until he shortly came back. Even so, it brings up fascinating thoughts- if Mur retired from MD in earnest, how would the land press on? Would someone from the Council begin to take on the guises of various figures such as the Knator Commander and others and create new plot lines, or would things merely sit there? I'm not suggesting that characters such as the KC should be free reign either- far from it- but we're rather forced to consider the idea that we're unable to affect the land as much as someone acting as driving lynchpin with full game permissions would be able to. Without someone in that position, things visibly slow down to a snail's pace, RP is lost to most people, and most quests created by users are more about riddles and math problems than things that could intrinsically have to do with trying to figure out what MD is. This part of what I was meaning here.


@Curiose: I agree fully, and you're right, a good chunk of recent inactivity IS my fault due to outside influences as I've been tied up with final exams for the past three weeks until just a couple days ago, so this is why I've been out of the public eye as of late but they were things I needed to focus on as I'm hoping many can relate. I certainly see where our flaws are as rebels and it's been something I've spent many hours thinking of how to rectify. Even today I saw an argument at the gates between both sides that amounted to basically "No U!" over and over again where I couldn't decide whether or not to laugh or cry bearing witness to it. Even so, it was enlightening. Not every path is the obvious one, or even the most logical one, and so this takes tweaking according to the changes. Again, this has been a challenge I've both been horribly frustrated and delighted with, but even so, through the trial and error you yourself have mentioned (which very much has been going on, but perhaps on a more subtle scale than even I expected), a new tactic is already being actively taken.

------

To address some overall comments:

•I'd never want permanent death for a character- I think that's horribly boring and bland. To use Mya's murder for a most recent example, at the time I was hoping at her death she'd then come back and then vehemently go after those who transgressed against her. If it hadn't been for Keith making a proper quest/event out of it, I doubt that would have ever happened even in small part as it did in the 'final showdown' that was held. To me, this sort of scenario is much more interesting than someone just going poof because they got nicked with a blade.

•The 'scenario', for lack of a better word, I proposed in what became the first post of this thread does have the potential to become unbalanced in the hands of the players who devote a majority of their time playing MD. Even so, this is why things should not be so set in stone as most of the counterpoints to the idea have assumed in their assessments. The idea is to set up a more interactive arena in this sense, and adjust it as it goes along. In a way, this is something that already happens in MD, that's very true, but even so, all changes are left extremely open ended to not something necessarily affectable but something where the final say-so is left in the hands of a single person, or extremely limited and perhaps ardently biased group of individuals (to name a worst-case scenario), and that is near impossible to do anything with I think.



This post was NOT an attempt to whine- please believe me on that point. It was merely an effort to share some of the thoughts that have been swirling about in my head after observing and being party to various events. Because it IS, in essence, just brainstorming, it is why I also wanted to hear everyone else's ideas regarding my own so I could see some other takes on the idea, not necessarily to be crucified for them, although I understand that also tends to come with the territory and that's ok. I do not expect the possibility I've presented to be some end-all solution to things because I know it's got its faults- THIS is why I wanted everyone's (hopefully constructive) take on it, as only with tweaking and the input from various perspectives can something close to perfect even be formed, or perhaps even inspire something else entirely that could be of use. Perhaps it's not the purpose of MD to inspire what are, in the end, 'what if' scenarios, but I DO believe the purpose of MD is to make us think, and thought I have- perhaps not by the most orthodox means, but the results have still been invaluable. So, for what it's worth, thanks for sharing your thoughts so far, you guys.



[size="1"]edited to broaden one sentence.[/size]

Edited December 18, 2010 by Aysun

[Novato]

This question could look like very stupid. However, a lot of things is write about Role Player and I still don't understand what I think it's essential to just THINK about take side of rebel or not.

What are Rask's politics for Necrovion? How it's different from Jester politics? I don't want to be rude, but just say that it will change is not enought. I can only see the most superficial effects of the current politics and, personally, I don't see what's wrong. I am NOT taking sides here, but I think that the most important aspects are hiden and maybe it's one of the reasons that only few people are interested by role play.

[Rask]

[quote name='Novato' timestamp='1292684161' post='75671']
This question could look like very stupid. However, a lot of things is write about Role Player and I still don't understand what I think it's essential to just THINK about take side of rebel or not.

What are Rask's politics for Necrovion? How it's different from Jester politics? I don't want to be rude, but just say that it will change is not enought. I can only see the most superficial effects of the current politics and, personally, I don't see what's wrong. I am NOT taking sides here, but I think that the most important aspects are hiden and maybe it's one of the reasons that only few people are interested by role play.
[/quote]

Find me at the Howling Gates and you can ask me as many questions as you want.