MP3 using GGG?

[Curiose]

I have a slightly growing concern about the new coming MP3.

For the past few weeks, I have been sitting in the park and I have watched MP3-- Nearly all of them-- request to use non damage rit. No one has really objected to Mp3 using non damage.

I had no care about it until it was mistaken that Non Damage was part of the rules for the park. I don't know where you guys stand, but, looking at it, I kind of dislike it because it's like making a new precedent for the "February" case.

I don't care if MP5 do it, because they know the fighting mechanics. As to loosely quote Nadrolski: The MP3 will turn into mindless graasans. Big, but without brains.

[Ravenstrider]

No... But the rules about consensual attacks still protect them. I'm a supporter of the RDFA... It's a nice way to train and its members all know a great deal about the combat mechanics already.

Also, since you don't really participate in battles and don't know much about combat yourself, it's a bit hypocritical of you to bring up this issue.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Ravenstrider

[Curiose]

So? Can I not be involved in the community as much as I can be despite the fact that I don't fight?

[Ravenstrider]

Judging how others train while you yourself not participating in the training is hypocritical.

It's like a billionaire who doesn't give anything to charity condemning those that give too little or those who do it for a tax reduction.

Seriously, stop being such a busybody and let people enjoy the game.

[Curiose]

I'm not being a busy body. Maybe you should stop attacking people for their concerns because you're so obviously elite.

[Maebius]

(edit: also, what part of non-damaging in the park related to GGG? I must be too noobish to know that acronym, beyond it standing for a gazebo?)

I learned about the RDFA and non-damaging strategy quite soon after joining this game, and will vote that it makes a lot of sense.

Not sure what you mean about it making us MP3s big and brainless, because we still get strategic info by fighting against the Willow Shop guards, and also do damage if we want to outside the park. Staying MP3 and learning the general basics of combat doesnlt seem to be "bad" to me, but then again, as an MP3, I don't know the higher-level abilities and such yet. Still, staying here and playing with non-damaging rituals, gave me a much better understanding of how combat worked for those non-damaging creatures I was using, plus discover a few things about certain creatures that did cause damage, by offering to get attacked my them as part of balancing my wins/losses.

Not sure of the "downside" of this sort of training, honestly. Can you elaborate without going into spoilers?
I'm honestly curious why such practices seem detrimental to you, and would work to change the status quo if your arguments can convince me of why.
I'm intrigued now....

Edited March 1, 2011 by Maebius

[Curiose]

GGG stands for Golden Globe Gazebo.

I was always told/taught that the GGG is basically using non damage rituals. What it does, is it gives wins for players creatures and experience for the player. Now, this is out of my experience.

My thought process, was basically the players would only learn the RDFH style of fighting, getting strong creatures, while not really knowing much about any other types of fighting. The creatures become strong, but yet, the player does not necessarily become educated. As I said before, I don't care about GGG or whatever happened with it. However, I think of it as an asset to mp5 players.

Another thing that I worry about is that the newbies will think that RDFH is an actual requirement of the park when it isn't. I mean... as I see it, younger players would get so hooked up on the new style of fighting that they won't necessarily get the wins and losses that they need to move up. And without new players to move up the ranks, then, again, as I see it, the newbies will stay at mp3 and not bother to brave the upper levels.

That is my concern.

[Brulant]

[quote name='Maebius' timestamp='1298950395' post='79760']
Not sure of the "downside" of this sort of training, honestly. Can you elaborate without going into spoilers?
I'm honestly curious why such practices seem detrimental to you, and would work to change the status quo if your arguments can convince me of why.
I'm intrigued now....
[/quote]

The "downside" argument is that people are only going to be using non-damage fighting to train. Therefore, they will never learn how to attack.
HOWEVER

That seems a little bit extreme to me.

I personally love the RDFA. Just because you're training with active people with non-damage doesn't mean that you aren't attacking the idlers for damage. You can learn some about rits, train your creatures, and sometimes bring yourself closer to balance. So I support it.

I can't figure out why the forums won't let me quote you, Curi.

"I was always told/taught that the GGG is basically using non damage rituals. What it does, is it gives wins for players creatures and experience for the player. Now, this is out of my experience."
Experience gained is directly proportional to they amount of ve lost, so with non-damage rituals no xp is gained.

Huh, interesting, the forum just lumps in my next fast reply with my previous post if no one else has posted.
I didn't know that it did that. [/off topic]

"Another thing that I worry about is that the newbies will think that RDFH is an actual requirement of the park when it isn't"
If they read the signpost in the park it should be fairly apparent that the RDFA isn't a part of the park. And as far as I know when learning about the RDFA people tell the new MP3s that this is just specifically for the RDFA and is not how things normally go.

[Curiose]

[quote]Experience gained is directly proportional to they amount of ve lost, so with non-damage rituals no xp is gained.[/quote]

I only remember that while doing non damage you receive some sort of experience. It must have been creature experience, then. I only did this for a few hours when BigC was around, but within that I was able to get quite a bit of experience for my creatures.

I understand that these are extremist views, but, the extreme can happen.

[Maebius]

[quote name='Curiose' timestamp='1298952861' post='79764']
I only remember that while doing non damage you receive some sort of experience. It must have been creature experience, then. I only did this for a few hours when BigC was around, but within that I was able to get quite a bit of experience for my creatures.

I understand that these are extremist views, but, the extreme can happen.
[/quote]

Hmm, I've never gotten XP, either creature or personal, when using non-damaging rituals, and this is one of the Pro/Cons of fighting this way. Creatures won't advance, but neither will the player. For creatures, all it does is provide wins/losses, and is not a way to upgrade to Big Powerful Strong crits. The lack of personal XP also means it is useful to re-balance yourself, but not get any closer to the next MP level.

In every example of someone explaining RDFA or non-damaging style of fighting,, to me or a new-new player, it was always mentioned that it's not affiliated with the rules of the park though. However, I'll grant you that extreme cases may happen and I was not there if someone explained it as "The Rules". But even in that extreme case, I'd imagine they would learn otherwise fairly quickly if someone attacked them with damage, and was not scolded for it, if given permission to attack and thus in full complience of "Sparring Ground Rules".

but then again, perhaps others could clarify further.
To me, this doesn't seem to be an issue at all.

[Curiose]

I'm not trying to make it an issue, I'm just displaying a concern because someone actually DID think that RDF was part of the rules. Or, from how they stated it, it made me think that they had legitimately thought that non damage was part of the rules.

But as for the experience thing, It might have been old experience gained and they only needed wins... I don't know. I cannot remember.

[Brulant]

[quote name='Maebius' timestamp='1298953264' post='79765']
The lack of personal XP also means it is useful to re-balance yourself, but not get any closer to the next MP level.
[/quote]

That no longer works anyways once you're past MP3. You have to do damage to accumulate wins and losses.

[Kyphis the Bard]

The type of experience that was gained was due to a high honour gain. You get quite a bit of experience from that (I used to get around 1.2K per fight from that, and back when I used the GGG this meant I was able to max my two angiens without dealing any damage)

Edited March 1, 2011 by Kyphis the Bard

[dst]

Using non damaging rits is NOT a rule of the SG. Players claiming this are wrong and should read the sign post more careful.

Although you can't upgrade crits, using non damaging rits you can do something else with the wins. Which is exactly the reason GGG was destroyed.

Now, if this becomes an issue (young players using non damaging rits for farming) we can always step in and actually do something. If there are little things you can do for the mp5s it's easy to "fix" for mp3s and mp4s.

As far as I have seen (yeah...I don't have too much time but I do keep an eye on the game) this has not grew over proportions which is good but if it does...I believe we can cope with it.

My advice: for mp5s: keep an eye on the noobs
for noobs:dont' use non damaging rits for farming. Use them for healing. It's not mandatory to max all crits in mp3 or mp4.

[Kyphis the Bard]

It's actually quite healthy to make mistakes in MP3, since if you can understand why what you did didn't work, you will quickly learn what does and how to beat other players (as well as lots of other cool tricks)

Never be afraid to experiment

[Shemhazaj]

[font="Book Antiqua"][color="#696969"]the picture the "GGG" style in SG creates:

I got a PM from an MP3 who asked me if quests are giving Xp, because he has over 200 won fights and his Xp lvl didn't move and he doesn't know how to gain Xp...

I think that says it all...
[/color][/font]

[Curiose]

I forgot that wins/victories for MP3 are the same... so they're pretty much harvesting wins without wanting losses..
A lot of the newbies complain about getting losses, too when a rit is broken or the person attacks without non damage.

[Shadowseeker]

If anyone with a proper method wants to beat some sense into this, feel free to go ahead.

As of right now I do not have the time nor the spirit to care.

[xrieg]

I honestly do not understand the issue... The question remains which is worse:
1. people learning some game mechanics from non-dam rituals (and: much more from battle logs when something go haywire or a sparring partner points out what they do wrong)
2. people advancing to MP4 without seeing/ understanding a thing about MD except some occasional chat at MDP.

About farming... I advanced to MP4 with +25 wins balance only to discover that most active players are +100 losses and more. New people get there pretty quickly as they keep giving positive honor to most players. So as my balance is almost perfect I must farm honor from those players I can and appreciate it (so non-dam is preferred as it lasts longer - of course upon information about not giving losses).

As it does not unbalance the game (most RDFA ppl go to MP4 smoothly and do not keep non-dam forever; rather something to occupy their AP while socializing) I see no problem whatsoever.

And Shem... Was it _really_ the weirdest MP3 question you got? Personally I know for sure it wasn't :-P

Edited March 1, 2011 by xrieg

[Shemhazaj]

[quote name='xrieg' timestamp='1298980751' post='79785']
1. people learning some game mechanics from non-dam rituals
[/quote]

[quote name='xrieg' timestamp='1298980751' post='79785']
And Shem... Was it _really_ the weirdest MP3 question you got? Personally I know for sure it wasn't :-P
[/quote]
[font="Book Antiqua"][color="#696969"]
it wasn't the weirdest, nor the silliest, nor anything ending with *est
(off topic: none of your questions was the weirdest as well )
but it proves that people are really learning very little about game mechanics while having same non damage ritual for weeks...

the problem is not that MP3s are doing it, but that there are people doing nothing else.
[/color][/font]

[Fyrd Argentus]

The crux of the issue with GGG (Golden Globe Gazebo) was that the special rituals were "mandatory" and a body of citizens tried to enforce that. This resulted in a sheltered environment where people could grow up in an artificially created environment, and numerous people thinking this was bad for a number of reasons, some selfish, some not. (You can read my take on the political side of that by saying "look" at the GGG).

Now there is no problem with people agreeing to spar in some agreed-upon way with their friends. They will be doing it in a place where they must be on guard from other players who have no such agreement with them, whether it is the park or elsewhere.

The rule at the park is that young players not be attacked without their permission. They can stay and learn as long as it takes. No one should have a problem with that. The problems have been with people taking advantage of the learners...

Any player who pushes themselves to advance to MP4, MP5 without learning all they can about fighting either is setting themselves up for trouble, or are marching to their own drummer. This is a self-correcting problem, or rather not really one at all.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Fyrd Argentus

[Curiose]

Xrieg, like I said before, I'm not making it an issue, I am displaying a personal concern about the newbies only learning the RDFA style. As I had also said before, I don't really care that they use it. But because nearly ALL of them are using it, they are nto really learning game mechanics, as stated by myself and others, which leads to the possible things:

1. Frustration in newer players
2. Decreasing Morality in newer players

And possible other happenings which I cannot think of at the moment.

The problems with numbers 1&2 is the fact that their frustration from not knowing the mechanics very well will possibly make them want to leave the game, not advance into MP5, or whatever.

[Mya Celestia]

[color="#8B0000"][font="Palatino Linotype"]There will always be those that "blow off" the guidelines for the park and attack people. It does raise a concern when new players don't know how to gain xp because non-damage is the only type of fighting they do. Doing a non-damage for healing or trying something is one thing. To put a bunch of wins on a creature for other purposes is quite another. MP3s really shouldn't be doing that.

I'd hate to see something drastic happen because the MP3s felt they all needed to be at the level of a couple of select MP3s that are way beyond what they should be.

This is in reference to MP3s only.[/font][/color]

[Jubaris]

The sanctity of the park most of you wanted allows people not to get attacked and arrange fights they want to fight - if they want non-damage fights, then they can get them.

Why should anyone forbid people what rituals they can set? (yes, dst, "anyone" equals you)

You don't want them to set non-damaging wins? You need to remove the "Sparring Grounds" rules first then so they can't afford to organize themselves in the park like that. It's that simple.

As long as there are no alt abuses and no harassment like "it's the rules, don't attack me with damaging rit!" (which was brought before as the reason of DST destroying GGG), they can do what-the-f***-ever they want.

If anyone wants to teach mp3s about different styles of combat (although, I think they pick that by themselves - they have to, cause they train for a reason, to fight, not to train for training, nobody would start a game like that ), a contest could be organized to encourage mp3s to fight "to the death"

[xrieg]

Every sword has two edges :-P I know about at least 1 new player who went to MP4 almost immediately - and was completely lost there; is no longer playing to the best of my knowledge (got some PMs asking when I was planning to move)... It's not that easy to go MP5 accidetally, but every now and then you hear people complainig they didn't wait longer.
RDFA help people to socialize and thus probably it even increases chances of staying in MD. Nowadays probably most people moving from MP3 got their first informations about rituals building and basic mechanics just to start RDFA.
About learning... There is nothing instead - if they want to move they do damaging fights; they can do it if they want/ get bored/ get frustrated. And people experiment - so while perfect RDFA do not teach much, IRL people try to build rits involving all their crits and figure out how do they work (often 'well, it did something completely unexpected... why?').
I suspect that as far as frustration and morality goes, RDFA only helps.
Still, it seems that of new players I was the only one interested enough to write here - so so far frustration with RDFA is not that high yet :-P