Azrafar

I apologize for the delay in starting this, but I had to fix some connection issues. Despite the small audience, this part ended in a very inspiring discussion.   Lecture 2/4 [spoiler] lashtal: Tonight's part was extracted from an old tome... lashtal: A tome written long ago by Khalazdad, the first human being crowned in Necrovion. lashtal: Someone whose ramblings and theories are still preserved and pondered on. : lashtal sits down and opens a big dusty book. : Azkhael seats himself besides the gates lashtal: "Fear is a weak blade... lashtal: Nobody enjoys being afraid and fear usually is expressed as anger. And anger can hurt you. lashtal: Hence, you will not usually use fear as a weapon, but you must understand its workings to benefit from its teachings, as it will be present frequently in our dealings with others. lashtal: Fear is difficult to manage or assuage. lashtal: Sometimes the best thing you can do to play fear is to turn its course, help it find a new target. lashtal: A little push is all it takes, a little reasonable doubt, a little nagging conscience. lashtal: Those who fear you can be made to fear your enemy. Gently. lashtal: Or a softer target if it advantages you. lashtal: Keep in mind: try not to make others fear you. lashtal: Even your greatest enemy must think you weaker than you truly are. lashtal: If they do not fear you, if they hold you in contempt, they will not bring the forces needed to eliminate you. lashtal: Thus, you may have the mightiest of enemies and withstand them." : Azkhael softly turns his head, inquisitively, at lashtal lashtal: *turns to him* Questions? Comments? lashtal: Otherwise I have two short stories to share about the subject. lashtal: "A man feared what he saw when he looked into a cave. It was dark, and made noise, and he saw something moving inside. lashtal: He went home and nursed his fear. His fear turned to hate - he hated what could make him feel so afraid. lashtal: He returned to the cave full of hate, and found that what was inside seemed to hate him back. When he drew his sword, he heard the darkness hiss at him, and saw a movement in the dark. lashtal: But he decided to master his fear. He entered the cave with his sword drawn, charged from the back. lashtal: The clamor of his armor echoed off the walls and became the sound of an army in his ears. When he reached the back of the cave he found what defeated him utterly. lashtal: It was a mirror." lashtal: *looks around with a grin...* Bedtime stories indeed... lashtal: Last one: lashtal: "A man feared high places. Each day he had to cross a long rope bridge to reach his fields, and each day he felt terror at the deed. lashtal: He crossed with his eyes closed, gripping the ropes with white knuckled fists, side step by easing side step. lashtal: One day a traveller taught him a mantra to master his fear. He repeated it over and over until he could cross the bridge with his eyes open. lashtal: He began to grow bold, and released his grip on the rope railings, and eventually walked in the middle of the bridge eater than keeping to the edges. lashtal: The edges, as it turns out, had been the safest place on the bridge. He fell through a rotten board and died one morning." Azkhael: I shall comment briefly on the first part, then on the two stories. lashtal: Hit me! Azkhael: A: indeed, if one expects a logical methodology from one's own enemies in dealing with a threat, to be underestimated, to not be seem as a threat, and hence to move freely, is a blessing. Azkhael: But fear can be a tool to be used against one's enemies, an open threat of cripplement that stops a stronger party from weakening itself against you, and annihilating you in the process. Azkhael: Against an emotionally susceptible party, it likewise shares that double edge. For they might lash irrationally against you, or they might go on the defensive even when the opportunity for an offensive presents itself. lashtal: I agree on everything... Fear is indeed not a weak blade, but rather a double-sided blade Azkhael: Stories: fear can be a crippling weakness, producing a threat where there is none (story 1) , but fear can also be the recognition of a perfectly real threat (story 2) . Azkhael: Both would indicate that fear's nature, in those regards, is ultimately circumstantial. Azkhael: The question that is posed, from therein, is to what extent those circumstances can be recognized, and employed in one's favor, or avoided. Azkhael: I believe that may be later addressed. lashtal: This is a very good point. AmberRune: If the fear -while seemingly real- is relatively small or manageable, can't it also goad people into action? Azkhael: In that sense, the two stories are interconnected, but that interconnection, in turn, relates directly to the first part. Azkhael: The first part speaks of how to use other's fears. The stories speak of one's own fears. But, ultimately, they speak of the same thing, and how it can be used. Azkhael: @AmberRune: yes, by extension, presenting an enemy as fearsome, though not invincibly so, is to point them as a manageable threat. lashtal: Personally, I've always been more interested in learning from my own fears... But, indeed, being skilled at using others fears can lead to significant power... lashtal: And as you pointed out, it's all inter-connected… Azkhael: If I might ask, what do one's fears teach them? Not in particulars, for I understand those may be variable, but in a general sense? lashtal: "Them" being who? Azkhael: Oneself. lashtal: You're asking, what could I learn from my own fear? Azkhael: In a sense, though the answer you can give will, indeed, pertain to yourself. lashtal: Trying to stay in a general sense... : Krioni lands quietly lashtal: Analyzing why we got scared by a certain image/situation is the key to our weak spots, our fragilities, the dark corners of our-selves. : lashtal nods to Krioni lashtal: For example, let me take a nightmare I had a few days ago... lashtal: I was napping, it was a semi-lucid dream in which I knew I was dreaming, but I could not control its course. lashtal: At a certain point, while still dreaming, I wanted to wake up. lashtal: So... I dreamt I was struggling to wake up, but actually I was still dreaming. lashtal: In my dream, once awake, I wasn't feeling good because I still felt very sleepy, unable to focus, almost retarded... lashtal: I looked for my girlfriend, trying hard to express how I felt... lashtal: I remember I said something like "I must have hit my head hard, I feel I lost my mind." Azkhael: Interesting, much comes to mind already, but, please, do continue. lashtal: Analyzing such a bad dream.. what could I realize about myself? AmberRune: I'm confused, what was the bad dream part of it? lashtal: That in the dream I couldn't wake up and I stayed like suspended in between the two states? Azkhael: These are only guesses, however you are wary of being powerless over yourself. Azkhael: Or, alternatively, though not far removed, you are wary of losing yourself. lashtal: Exactly: one of my biggest fears/concerns is to lose my mind or part of my lucid state. Azkhael: What was your own insight? lashtal: For someone playing with lucid dreams and altered states of consciousness... having a solid, lucid base on which to rely and start from is mandatory. Azkhael: Thank you for sharing. lashtal: I hope this answered your question.. Azkhael: May I use the opportunity to briefly relate to my comments during the previous lecture? lashtal: Of course you can. Azkhael: When I said I do not believe we can think without employing the logical form, I did not mean to say the logical form is wholly sufficient. Azkhael: Namely, despite that comment, I agree with every single one of today's statements. Azkhael: Understanding oneself requires reflections that cannot be limited by rationalization. : lashtal nods as he listens Azkhael: However, when you speak of the importance of a lucid mind in the process (...) I would, temptingly, relate that to that previous comment of which, in reflecting, language may present itself as an inescapable resource. Azkhael: One that, itself, defines us irreversibly, though it does not do so alone. Azkhael: What are your views on that? lashtal: Lucidity is important as base-ground. It's our reference, so to say. lashtal: At the same time... lashtal: Lucidity and rationality should initially be avoided when confronting with dreams or fears. lashtal: One has to abandon him/her-self first. Azkhael: In the act of experiencing them, or in the act of reflecting over them? lashtal: In the act of experiencing them, to fully experience them... : Azkhael nods lashtal: Reflecting requires rationality, but that's the second phase Azkhael: I concur, so far. Azkhael: Would you say one can reflect without rationality, however? lashtal: Could be a lexical issue here, but to me reflecting-analyzing implies rationality. Azkhael: As it does to me. But that is the curious thing. More and more, we are led to believe language is molded across "channels". Azkhael: I have met individuals who claimed they were able to think, to wield an elaborate logical form, in patterns that could only strike me as utterly alien. Azkhael: An austriac mathematician that mutilated himself - his own brain, to be exact - obsessed with what he deemed were ingrained limitations to his thought patterns - inconsistencies - comes to mind. lashtal: Well... What if I tell you I experienced a non-tridimensional world, where the states of matter were no solid, liquid or gas but something in between? Azkhael: I cannot actually conceive it, but I find it intriguingly feasible. lashtal: It was a mental image, but its memory is more vivid than what I'm starring at right now. Azkhael: I believe our mind is flawed, that, even in thought, we are limited to reproducing experiences, and that we may be able to think in fashions we cannot conceive of without such experiences. Azkhael: We once disregarded much as madness - under a now devalued psychiatric paradigm - which we are now forced to reevaluate. Azkhael: That is to say, those were the paradigms of a positivist psychiatry, that has since been put in check. : lashtal nods in agreement lashtal: I wish to thank you for your contribution Azkhael: No, I should be the one thanking you for the insights. Azkhael: I hope it was as interesting a conversation for you as it was for me. lashtal: It was indeed, and it would have been a mere "revival" without your comments lashtal: And with this I'm leaving... The cemetery calls. AmberRune: G'night lash! Azkhael: Farewell, lashtal. lashtal: I'll post a log tomorrow morning AmberRune: yays! : Assira the Black nods to lashtal Azkhael: Until we next meet. : [Spell] CURSE YOU ALL MEN! [/spoiler]

After this first meeting, participants were assigned homeworks.
Initially I didn't mean to share that part, but since your answers were nice... here they are!
 
[spoiler]
Homework: Argumentum in terrorem

This technique uses deception (the exploiting of existing fears) to create support for the speaker's proposal.
The form is the following:
Either P (the speaker's proposal) or Q is true. Q is frightening and sometimes presented as P's sole alternative. Therefore, P must be accepted.

Few examples:
"If you don't believe in God, you will burn in Hell forever."
"If you don't kill or betray someone, you'll never be accepted as a true Necrovion."

These are fallacies, because regardless an outcome is frightening, it has no relevance to whether the speaker's proposal is true or not.

Task: give another example of argumentum in terrorem.
Your answers so far:

"Protest against current government and bring it down or stay in recession." Ary Endleg

"If you dont do your homework, lashtal will dig your skull on the cemetery soon." Eara Meraia

"If you do not pick and kill one of your daughters, both will be killed." Aeoshattr
 
"If you touch Lash's strangling rope, you'll choke instantly." Lania
 
"If you don't eat your meat, how can you have any pudding?" Gljivoje
 
"If you play with fire, you will be burnt" Azkhael
 
"If you aren't willing to spend time with the heretic archer, you'll become the god he hates" AmberRune
[/spoiler]

This thread is meant to contain the logs from the meetings at the Howling Gates.
 
Please refrain from posting here. I would like to keep discussions in game rather than on forum.
If you wish to share your ideas or discuss anything related to the subject, you're welcome to participate to next meetings (there will be 3 more at least, always at the Howling Gates, date and time will be announced on the Mood Panel).
 
Lecture 1/4:
[spoiler][24/10/14 00:28] lashtal:Greetings once again
[24/10/14 00:28] :Lania nods at Lash
[24/10/14 00:28] Azkhael:Or rather, don't, since lashtal has returned.
[24/10/14 00:28] Azkhael:It is an article of questionable valuable, as any on the topic is, about water dowsing.
[24/10/14 00:29] Azkhael:It does, however, enjoy a good range of references.
[24/10/14 00:29] lashtal:Water dowsing?
[24/10/14 00:29] Ary Endleg:shouldn't you show it to Amber then rather than me?
[24/10/14 00:29] Ary Endleg:you two were talking about it :D
[24/10/14 00:29] Azkhael:I would, but she has departed to lands far far away.
[24/10/14 00:30] Ary Endleg:okay... so lets start
[24/10/14 00:30] Azkhael:By which I mean she will probably be back within the hour. But I like being dramatic.
[24/10/14 00:31] lashtal:I will wait 5 more minutes for others to come...
[24/10/14 00:32] lashtal:After that I am honored to introduce to you a topic I've always been fascinated by.
[24/10/14 00:33] lashtal:Ideally, this Fear class will be divided into 4 parts.
[24/10/14 00:33] lashtal:Those who miss a part may ask for a transcription...
[24/10/14 00:34] lashtal:But more than just lectures, I'd like these encounters to be discussions
[24/10/14 00:35] lashtal:Today I will present the 1st part, the outer part.
[24/10/14 00:36] lashtal:During next encounters, we will go beyond the surface, and consider fear from other points of view.
[24/10/14 00:36] :Lania listens
[24/10/14 00:37] lashtal:The 2nd part will be about the role of imagination...
[24/10/14 00:37] lashtal:The 3rd one about the side-effects fear may trigger...
[24/10/14 00:37] lashtal:While the last one will consider fear as a teacher.
[24/10/14 00:40] lashtal:Oh... Was forgetting...
[24/10/14 00:40] lashtal:You'll be given home-works. *grins*
[24/10/14 00:40] :Lania swallows hard
[24/10/14 00:40] :Ary Endleg sulks
[24/10/14 00:41] :Aeoshattr grins from ear to ear
[24/10/14 00:42] lashtal:All right, let's get started.
[24/10/14 00:44] :lashtal takes out a dusty notebook and blows on it, raising a huge thick cloud..
[24/10/14 00:44] :Ary Endleg coughs
[24/10/14 00:45] :[Spell] screams
[24/10/14 00:45] lashtal:"Fear is a feeling closely tied to the most primitive parts of the brain.
[24/10/14 00:46] *Eara Meraia*:and here she is. Thanks
[24/10/14 00:46] *Eara Meraia*:oh! lecture!!!
[24/10/14 00:46] :Aeoshattr looks up at the clouds for a brief moment
[24/10/14 00:46] lashtal: *nods to Eara* Welcome.
[24/10/14 00:46] :*Eara Meraia* smiles
[24/10/14 00:47] :*Eara Meraia* passed Gold coin to Neno Veliki
[24/10/14 00:47] lashtal:Mind the chairs.. they're quite noisy
[24/10/14 00:47] :Ary Endleg mumbles about people being always late
[24/10/14 00:47] *Eara Meraia*:now I can listen carefully
[24/10/14 00:47] :lashtal clears his throat
[24/10/14 00:47] lashtal:"Fear is a feeling closely tied to the most primitive parts of the brain.
[24/10/14 00:47] lashtal:It is a basic survival mechanism, triggered by specific stimuli and least amenable to reason and consciousness.
[24/10/14 00:48] lashtal:Interesting to notice, people and animals can develop specific fears as a result of learning, not only from personal history.
[24/10/14 00:48] lashtal:This means fear can be taught, and the subject conditioned to fear even something never experienced.
[24/10/14 00:49] lashtal:Although these techniques have their side effects, fear can be an effective tool to change attitudes.
[24/10/14 00:50] lashtal:Nature and all the realms we've experienced are full of examples...
[24/10/14 00:51] lashtal:The point being: sometimes a deterrent accomplishes more than an open fight...
[24/10/14 00:52] lashtal:Take scarecrows.
[24/10/14 00:53] lashtal:Their obvious purpose is to discourage birds from feeding on seedlings.
[24/10/14 00:53] lashtal:The practices of a hanging a dead crow, or spreading nightshade seeds amidst the edible ones, work in the same direction... *grins*
[24/10/14 00:53] lashtal:... But I sense there are questions...
[24/10/14 00:53] :*Eara Meraia* chuckles
[24/10/14 00:54] Ary Endleg:Should we be afraid since you killed Mur?
[24/10/14 00:54] *Eara Meraia*: *coughs* I wonder what parts of brain do you consider primitive
[24/10/14 00:55] lashtal: *chuckles at Ary's question* I honestly don't know...
[24/10/14 00:55] : Mallos throws the dice and gets 1
[24/10/14 00:55] Fire Starter: *grins* That's a good question to a skull collector...
[24/10/14 00:55] *Eara Meraia*: *pokes Ary* youre even afraid of water
[24/10/14 00:55] Azkhael:Hmm, wouldn't you say that the fear derived from a scarecrow, for a crow, is inherent, rather than acquired, relating to its movement, rather than its appearance?
[24/10/14 00:55] Eon:.
[24/10/14 00:55] Ary Endleg: *pokes her back* so are you
[24/10/14 00:56] lashtal: *to Eara* What I mean is: even the most primitive species experience fear.. For it's a vital mechanism
[24/10/14 00:56] Fire Starter: *coughs* Stop teasing my Cloud please.
[24/10/14 00:56] lashtal:Interesting question, Azkhael...
[24/10/14 00:56] :[Spell] eugnotrevlis lashtal
[24/10/14 00:57] Fire Starter:LOL
[24/10/14 00:57] :[Spell] eugnotrevlis Azkhael
[24/10/14 00:57] Fire Starter:Now this isn't evil. It's just expected...
[24/10/14 00:57] Ary Endleg:yes! nice script
[24/10/14 00:57] :[Spell] go back to nature eon
[24/10/14 00:58] Fire Starter:Listen everyone - this is a 12 minutes break.
[24/10/14 00:59] *Eara Meraia*:I agree, lashtal, though as a further comment - all brain structures are highly complex, so are the amygdalae :P
[24/10/14 01:01] Fire Starter:Indeed, dear, but complex doesn't exclude primitive, and vise versa
[24/10/14 01:01] *Eara Meraia*:yes, I understood, that lash meant primitive in evolutionary terms
[24/10/14 01:02] Fire Starter:but we are going quite away from the subject. Do you want me to kill the chat again?
[24/10/14 01:02] Fire Starter:I can't deny I am tempted, but still...
[24/10/14 01:02] Aeoshattr:Wouldn't a creature need a nervous system in order to experience fear? Unless this has already been discussed, it would seem to me that "primitive" is not the word to be used
[24/10/14 01:02] *Eara Meraia*:anyhow, along with the fear, I do hope we talk about erasing of fear tonight, highly interesting subject
[24/10/14 01:03] Aeoshattr:What is the point of erasing fear? *chuckles* That would be boring and plain dangerous
[24/10/14 01:03] Fire Starter:Oh, erasing the fear is simple.
[24/10/14 01:03] *Eara Meraia*:nervous system is needed Aeo, primitive was applied to brain structures
[24/10/14 01:03] Fire Starter:Not dangerous at all, Aeoshattr
[24/10/14 01:03] : Eon throws the dice and gets 8
[24/10/14 01:03] Aeoshattr:Is it not? There is a reason why mortals fear. That is to keep them out of harm's way.
[24/10/14 01:04] Aeoshattr:Fear not danger and you are bound to injure or kill yourself. Unless you're awfully lucky or skilled.
[24/10/14 01:04] : *Nimrodel* was dragged by Eon
[24/10/14 01:05] *Eara Meraia*:depends on the kind of fear, and the amount.
[24/10/14 01:05] *Eara Meraia*:some kinds of fear are rather ridiculous, other useful
[24/10/14 01:06] Aeoshattr:That is absolutely true.
[24/10/14 01:06] Fire Starter:Intentionaly charging at dangerous situations isn't something, that fear drives.
[24/10/14 01:06] Aeoshattr:But even the most ridiculous fear can be useful.
[24/10/14 01:06] *Eara Meraia*:since fear can be conditioned, "mistakes" happen
[24/10/14 01:06] :Aeoshattr grins
[24/10/14 01:06] lashtal:Ehm
[24/10/14 01:07] lashtal:That is the point, Aeo
[24/10/14 01:07] Fire Starter:Fear is only a word. It exists only because we have given it a name
[24/10/14 01:07] *Eara Meraia*:may be useful, but mostly it is limiting. Lets imagine you are scared of grasans shade. what this fear can give you
[24/10/14 01:07] :[Spell] eugnotrevlis *Eara Meraia*
[24/10/14 01:08] :[Spell] eugnotrevlis lashtal
[24/10/14 01:08] Azkhael:mm•
[24/10/14 01:08] Fire Starter:So, this happens on every lecture, lash?
[24/10/14 01:08] Aeoshattr:I didn't claim it would be useful for the person that feels the fear, Eara *chuckles*
[24/10/14 01:08] lashtal:Hopefully we'll end to consider even the stupidest fear as a valuable teacher
[24/10/14 01:09] Azkhael:Necessarily so?
[24/10/14 01:10] Aeoshattr:In fact... The more ridiculous a fear is, the more easily usable by others it becomes.
[24/10/14 01:11] Ary Endleg:Eon is either out of casts or only has 4 more :D
[24/10/14 01:11] Ary Endleg:Besides, I have no problem in reading silvertongue text
[24/10/14 01:12] Aeoshattr: (^)
[24/10/14 01:12] Fire Starter:Life begins where fear ends. It's that simple
[24/10/14 01:13] Aeoshattr:I still believe life can also end where fear ends. You could consider it a gamble. Casting fear away will liberate you. One way or the other
[24/10/14 01:15] Azkhael:Those are rather arbitrary statements.
[24/10/14 01:16] Fire Starter:Presactly!
[24/10/14 01:17] Aeoshattr:Picture fear of heights. You may defeat it and go on a dangerous rock climbing hike. It may liberate you, not feeling the fear and accomplishing something that you wouldn't have attempted before
[24/10/14 01:17] Aeoshattr:But one small slip, one misguided step and you plummet to your death. A death that fear would have easily prevented.
[24/10/14 01:18] Ary Endleg:rope!
[24/10/14 01:18] Ary Endleg:also... you should have 8 spare lives....
[24/10/14 01:19] :Aeoshattr chuckles a bit
[24/10/14 01:19] Fire Starter:Who said that exact wrong step isn't the most important one in your life that you should make? The step to your death.
[24/10/14 01:19] Fire Starter:The step to your liberation
[24/10/14 01:20] Azkhael:Feel free not to reply to the PMs once Silvertongue is over, lashtal. I am only using the time window.
[24/10/14 01:20] Fire Starter:But I will be silent from now.
[24/10/14 01:20] Ary Endleg:silver is over
[24/10/14 01:20] lashtal:You're free to discuss more, I am enjoying it. I won't add more till next class.
[24/10/14 01:20] Aeoshattr:Which is why I said it would liberate you one way or the other. Either in success or death.
[24/10/14 01:21] Azkhael:Hmm, I thought it had been recast.
[24/10/14 01:21] Aeoshattr: (Taken to the extreme, to illustrate the point)
[24/10/14 01:21] Azkhael:Do nevermind that then.
[24/10/14 01:21] lashtal:Just one thing. Banishing nightmares and fears absent-mindedly, like swapping the air, is just a way to look away. You may pretend your fears don't exist, but neither you learn nor you resolve them.
[24/10/14 01:22] Fire Starter:It only depends wether we are ready to take that one step. Because usually when we are ready for smth, Life presents it to us
[24/10/14 01:23] Fire Starter:Fear exists where knowledge is insuficent
[24/10/14 01:23] Ary Endleg:or abudant
[24/10/14 01:24] Aeoshattr:Exactly Ary's point
[24/10/14 01:24] Aeoshattr:Sometimes understanding something makes it so much more horrifying
[24/10/14 01:24] :Ary Endleg nods
[24/10/14 01:25] Fire Starter:I have never encountered the situation you're refering to... Interesting
[24/10/14 01:25] Fire Starter:Perhaps it depends on the point of view?
[24/10/14 01:25] lashtal:I agree more with Aeo here...
[24/10/14 01:26] Azkhael:I would, instead, simply say fear is partially inherent (of stimuli) , partially conditioned (of symbols) .
[24/10/14 01:27] *Eara Meraia*:it can also be self induced
[24/10/14 01:27] *Eara Meraia*:by your imagination
[24/10/14 01:27] Azkhael:That is a form of conditioning, unless I have misunderstood your statement.
[24/10/14 01:27] lashtal:Self-amplified...
[24/10/14 01:27] Fire Starter:the inherent fear is only a survival instinct. The conditioned one is the one we should fear :D
[24/10/14 01:27] Ary Endleg:Fear of fear is worst fear :p
[24/10/14 01:28] lashtal:I agree the conditioned one is the most important to us...
[24/10/14 01:28] Fire Starter:Presactly Ary :D
[24/10/14 01:28] Fire Starter:And not quite
[24/10/14 01:28] Azkhael:Our inherent fears might be conditioned in either direction, if not wholly so.
[24/10/14 01:29] Azkhael:But we should ask ourselves whether particularly traumatic fears do not, in fact, share that rigidity.
[24/10/14 01:31] lashtal:Those are the strictest teachers...
[24/10/14 01:32] Azkhael:In a sense, they provoke a form of adaptions, regardless of its direction. But to what extent is said adaptation beneficiary, and to what extent can it be maleficent?
[24/10/14 01:33] Azkhael:What is a positive adaptation and what is a negative adaptation, or, alternatively, what is a good fear and what is a bad fear, in common ideology, seems to be a very much socially defined notion.
[24/10/14 01:33] Fire Starter: (gtg, almost 2 am here. Will there be any log of this somewhere?)
[24/10/14 01:34] Ary Endleg:does labeling it with good or bad really matters?
[24/10/14 01:34] lashtal:Positive... Negative... It's all about you.
[24/10/14 01:35] *Eara Meraia*:I dont agree that fear provides adaptation. on the contrary fear is adaptation blocking feature, if you want.
[24/10/14 01:35] Aeoshattr: (I'll also be going. Long day ahead tomorrow for me. Dissections dissections.)
[24/10/14 01:35] lashtal: (I'll send a log to all those who participated, together with homework!)
[24/10/14 01:36] AmberRune: (what about us who had meetings and papers to write during this?)
[24/10/14 01:36] Fire Starter: ( *claps* Ah, homework! I always loved it. Later all :D)
[24/10/14 01:36] Ary Endleg:I don't want homework!
[24/10/14 01:36] AmberRune:You can do my homework, I give you half of it
[24/10/14 01:36] Fire Starter: (Amber is fearing that she will miss smth ;D )
[24/10/14 01:37] Azkhael:@Ary: While there is room for personal subjectivity, is impossible to avoid some form of judgement as to good or bad in dealing with a fear.
[24/10/14 01:37] AmberRune: (Amber had a freaking paper due 7 mins ago!)
[24/10/14 01:38] Azkhael:@Eara: I could concur that it is not a necessarily useful adaptation, and that it could, hence, block an useful adaptation, hence hindering adaptation after a fashion.
[24/10/14 01:38] Azkhael:But that is, itself, a provoked adaptation.
[24/10/14 01:41] lashtal:"It's impossible to avoid some form of judgement as to good or bad in dealing with a fear."
[24/10/14 01:41] lashtal:This is something I disagree with
[24/10/14 01:41] Azkhael:Please, go on.
[24/10/14 01:43] lashtal:Judgement itself implies unnecessary mental activity..
[24/10/14 01:44] *Eara Meraia*:this is very...eastern view of fear :)
[24/10/14 01:44] lashtal:If you want to learn where's the origin of your fear, you have to stare in front of the mirror
[24/10/14 01:44] lashtal:There's no good or bad, it's just you
[24/10/14 01:44] lashtal:What is hard is to accept one-self.
[24/10/14 01:45] :*Eara Meraia* nods at lashtals words holding her mirror tighter
[24/10/14 01:45] Azkhael:Would that not be, in turn, a judgement by one's own internal standards?
[24/10/14 01:46] lashtal:I don't see it that way...
[24/10/14 01:47] *Eara Meraia*:isnt fear ones own internal phenomenon?
[24/10/14 01:47] Azkhael:Help me, if you will; if one is to consider themselves at all, how can one do so but by a form of standard?
[24/10/14 01:47] lashtal:Indeed, but it's still the judging part that concerns me...
[24/10/14 01:48] lashtal:Self-analysis and acceptance do not pass necessarily through judgement
[24/10/14 01:49] Azkhael:The later I can understand.
[24/10/14 01:49] lashtal:If one maintains detachment
[24/10/14 01:49] Azkhael:But the earlier has me somewhat puzzled.
[24/10/14 01:50] Azkhael:Can something be analysed at all without speaking of "analysing by"?
[24/10/14 01:50] lashtal:What exactly puzzled you?
[24/10/14 01:51] lashtal:You mean, can we analyze without standards to refer to?
[24/10/14 01:52] *Eara Meraia*:you can still use an internal norm of comparison, you can compare you to yourself
[24/10/14 01:52] Azkhael:That is exactly it, yes lashtal.
[24/10/14 01:53] lashtal:Well, Eara gave an answer... Another could be "to explore one's mind is traveling on uncharted lands"
[24/10/14 01:55] Azkhael:If we start from the base assumption of which one's mind has something of static truth, then yes.
[24/10/14 01:55] lashtal:The point being, you don't really need comparisons. We're all pioneers when we deal with our-selves
[24/10/14 01:55] Azkhael:But if we do not make that arbitrary assumption (and I would note its opposite is also arbitrary) , then can we still speak of such?
[24/10/14 01:57] *Eara Meraia*:no, this is the point. you make a comparison in a different time points. you can also define your own individual baseline if you want but comparing yourself to other individuals i this case makes no
[24/10/14 01:58] *Eara Meraia*:sense because of vast variability of reaction
[24/10/14 01:59] Azkhael:@Eara: by one's mind I mean one's own mind.
[24/10/14 02:01] *Eara Meraia*:hat doesnt change my statement. still internal analysis is the most valid one in the case. you can gofor external observation but you have to be aware that it is filtered through other consciousness
[24/10/14 02:01] lashtal:That's the point
[24/10/14 02:01] Azkhael:Where did I speak of comparing oneself to another individual?
[24/10/14 02:02] *Eara Meraia*:you didnt :)
[24/10/14 02:03] Azkhael:"no, this is the point" has me confused then.
[24/10/14 02:03] *Eara Meraia*:I did excluding invalid options
[24/10/14 02:03] *Eara Meraia*:you can ignore that NO, I am just writing like I am talking :D
[24/10/14 02:04] Azkhael:Hmm.
[24/10/14 02:04] Azkhael:The problem is that, considering one's own thoughts alone (...)
[24/10/14 02:05] Azkhael:We find, in logic, a potentially empty form that is, nevertheless, inescapable.
[24/10/14 02:05] *Eara Meraia*:I know, and I tried to say that this is the most valid option you have
[24/10/14 02:05] Azkhael:But we can, in fact, make one of two assumptions concerning that form.
[24/10/14 02:05] Azkhael:We can call it transcendent, or we can call it flawed.
[24/10/14 02:06] Azkhael:That is an arbitrary option, I will readily admit.
[24/10/14 02:07] :Sir Blut sits
[24/10/14 02:07] *Eara Meraia*:you will have to define a flaw. Because I dont think there is such thing in the matter of internal representation
[24/10/14 02:07] lashtal:You're trying to apply logic and rationality...
[24/10/14 02:08] Azkhael:Flawed, here, is the assumption of which it is not absolute.
[24/10/14 02:09] lashtal:That may help if you want to banish fear, not much if you want to abandon to it and see which dark corners of yours come to light
[24/10/14 02:10] Azkhael:I do not, myself, believe logic to be transcendent. But I do consider it momentarily inescapable.
[24/10/14 02:11] Azkhael:Namely, while I can experience fear in a way not entire describable by logic, I cannot, nevertheless, think of fear without evoking a logical form.
[24/10/14 02:12] *Eara Meraia*:logic is something that will always fail where the feelings and emotions start :)
[24/10/14 02:13] AmberRune:oh cool! This is still going
[24/10/14 02:13] Azkhael:It is not quite a matter of failure.
[24/10/14 02:13] :*Eara Meraia* passes the talking stick to AmberRune
[24/10/14 02:14] *Eara Meraia*: (need to go to sleep, getting really late for me.)
[24/10/14 02:14] lashtal:Rest well Eara
[24/10/14 02:14] Azkhael:Good night, Eara.
[24/10/14 02:14] *Eara Meraia*:you can call it existance in different dimensions if you want
[24/10/14 02:14] *Eara Meraia*:night people!
[24/10/14 02:14] AmberRune: (g'night!)
[24/10/14 02:17] lashtal:I must admit I am crashing as well...
[24/10/14 02:17] Azkhael:If we abandon the logical pretension (and largely, we cannot) the immediately arising problem is that we cannot speak of at all.
[24/10/14 02:17] Azkhael:Oh well, good night then, lashtal.
[24/10/14 02:17] AmberRune:G'night sleepy peeps
[24/10/14 02:17] lashtal:Perhaps we can just hint...
[24/10/14 02:18] lashtal:Language is flawed, as is logic
[24/10/14 02:18] Gljivoje:crude words, bad words, bad
[24/10/14 02:18] :[Spell] They were waiting to be cows but forgot. Now they see the sky and remember
[/spoiler]
 

Though the moment may be inopportune, I would like to affirm Aeo's role and perhaps popularise it enough so that it is validated by the community as well. In order to do that, I must first present the role, or so I believe.
 
The story behind this is inside Aeo's "Comments on Self" page; I will avoid posting a text-wall here, so to those interested, it's one click away when you run into him around.
 
To put it in a nutshell, due to events in his past (call them pre-MD) and due to his life in the realm of MD so far, Aeo considers himself the incarnation of Pain, Anguish or Misery; he refers to it (and so do I) usually as merely "Pain" - experiences that have accumulated, condensed and coalesced into nothing more than Pain, which he keeps locked within. 
I do not believe this short description does the role justice, however for those that do not wish to read Aeo's Comms on Self, I felt the need to present it briefly.
 
Why do this?
Mostly because I have not had the chance to RP anything related to Aeo's role recently and I hope that this way, I will get something going. After all, RP is what I enjoy about MD (for the most part).
Ulterior motives? As I have nothing to hide, I might as well spit it out. I personally believe it is something very innocent and reasonable: I aspire to a title and perhaps a description, though those may be far away. 
 
Why "pain"? There are many kinds of pain, and many ways in which pain  can be seen. This will be discussed in a sermon.
 
How will I do this?
 
1. A series of three Sermons on Pain, each held at a location to be announced before the event. I will post dates and times here, along with a short description of what each Sermon will approach.
 
2. A short gathering with storytelling on the themes brought up by the Sermons (consider this "homework").
 
3. A quest of Pain; while I have it planned out, I must sort out various technical details, thus I will not post it until it is ready.
 
 
I kindly invite anyone interested to participate. I will post the details here, as soon as possible.
By all means, if anyone feels there is something that I need to clarify regarding other aspects of this other than scheduling, please point it out and I will do my best.
 
EDIT: Realised I missed out a whole chunk of the post. Oopsy.

First sermon of Pain:
 
Date&Time: Sunday, 16th of November, 22:00 ST
Location: Path of Loneliness
Topic: Definition, Introduction, Short debates on ways to define and see pain.
 
 
All are welcome - my only request is that if you decide to attend, please also actively participate. I will try and make this as interactive as possible, I don't want to hold a lecture.
 
LOGS (cleaned):
[spoiler]
[16/11/14 22:00] :Aeoshattr holds his right arm out to the side, making the five obsidian orbs roll out from his sleeve and float around him
[16/11/14 22:02] Aeoshattr:I will wait a few more minutes, in case anyone is running late.
[16/11/14 22:02] Lintara:Ohhh... *watches the orbs with an expression of a playful kitten* .
[16/11/14 22:02] Aeoshattr: *chuckles* Careful. You don't want to touch those.
[16/11/14 22:03] :Assira the Black leans against the wall
[16/11/14 22:03] Lintara: *jumps slightly at the sound, blinking, then shakes her head and chuckles* Right!
[16/11/14 22:03] Aeoshattr: *nods* Assira.
[16/11/14 22:03] Lintara: *smiles and waves* Hi Assira!
[16/11/14 22:04] Assira the Black:Hello.
[16/11/14 22:04] :Ailith smiles and nods to Assira
[16/11/14 22:04] Azkhael:As always, if anyone would require me to stop attacking, you need only ask.
[16/11/14 22:04] Assira the Black:How are things going?
[16/11/14 22:05] Azkhael:Hello, Azull, Assira.
[16/11/14 22:05] Lintara:Well so far, thanks. How about you? Hi Azull!
[16/11/14 22:05] Aeoshattr: *chuckles, holding one orb in his right hand, stroking his thumb over it, seemingly breaking a shard off* I would say things are going well.
[16/11/14 22:05] Aeoshattr: *bows his head* King Azull.
[16/11/14 22:05] Azull: *nods* Greetings
[16/11/14 22:06] :Assira the Black nods to Azull
[16/11/14 22:07] :Aeoshattr chuckles, letting the orb float away, holding a sharp black sliver in his fingers
[16/11/14 22:08] Aeoshattr:Well then, I will get started; to begin, I would like to thank you all for taking some of your time to be here.
[16/11/14 22:09] Aeoshattr: *holds the sliver in his palm, closing his fist around it* I believe I am correct in saying that pain is a part of each and everyone's life - an aspect that is unavoidable and, in a way, necessary
[16/11/14 22:10] :Aeoshattr chuckles, pacing around slowly
[16/11/14 22:11] Aeoshattr:Pain is easy to understand, isn't it?
[16/11/14 22:11] Lintara:Hurm, it's not exactly a very fun thing.... *shrugs and smiles* But it happens.
[16/11/14 22:11] Aeoshattr:Even the most primitive creature reacts to it; it may react to nothing else, but it will certainly react to pain.
[16/11/14 22:12] Aeoshattr:However, in the case of creatures like us... pain can sometimes mean more. If I were to ask how could one classify pain, what would you suggest?
[16/11/14 22:14] Assira the Black:mental, physical, spritual, duration, and intensity.
[16/11/14 22:14] Aeoshattr: *nods* Spot on, Assira. *grins* .
[16/11/14 22:15] Aeoshattr:Indeed, we usually split pain largely into emotional and physical and then further into acute or dull.
[16/11/14 22:16] Aeoshattr:Yet I dare ask - is this not artificial? *opens his palm, holding the black sliver between his index and middle fingers*
[16/11/14 22:16] Aeoshattr:To an extent... Physical and emotional pain are truly different; both in what caused them and in what can alleviate them.
[16/11/14 22:17] :Aeoshattr slowly pushes the sharp shard through his left palm
[16/11/14 22:18] :Ailith watches Aeo thoughtfully
[16/11/14 22:19] Aeoshattr:However, the division between the two is artificial, I believe. Why so? Sometimes, physical pain and emotional pain are indistinguishable.
[16/11/14 22:19] Aeoshattr:Especially to the one experiencing them.
[16/11/14 22:20] Aeoshattr:However, what I believe is truly worth looking into is the difference between sharp, acute pain and the dull, throbbing pain.
[16/11/14 22:21] Aeoshattr:Could someone think of an example of each?
[16/11/14 22:21] Aeoshattr:Say... I thrust this shard through my palm.
[16/11/14 22:21] Aeoshattr:At first, the physical pain is acute. Sharp, like the shard
[16/11/14 22:22] Aeoshattr:However, if I wait, that pain will vanish and within minutes, it will be replaced by a different sensation.
[16/11/14 22:22] Aeoshattr: *slowly pulls the shard out, some blood trickling down his fingers* Now can anyone give me an example of emotional pain behaving that way?
[16/11/14 22:24] Azkhael:First, I must ask you, in what way are they indistinguishable?
[16/11/14 22:24] Assira the Black:Heartbreak then loneliness. *shrugs*
[16/11/14 22:25] Aeoshattr: *grins* Well, I am glad someone asked. I had hoped to get away with that.
[16/11/14 22:25] Aeoshattr: *also nods at Assira* Again, spot on.
[16/11/14 22:26] Aeoshattr:The way in which our minds and bodies react to pain, both emotional and physical, is very similar, especially after exceeding a certain threshold.
[16/11/14 22:28] Aeoshattr:Furthermore, physical pain is often numbed by emotional pain.
[16/11/14 22:28] Aeoshattr:Now I am uncertain if this also goes the other way around - it could be an aspect worth exploring.
[16/11/14 22:29] Aeoshattr:Now why do you think there is this distinction between immediate pain and the one that comes after a while?
[16/11/14 22:32] Azkhael:Physical pain and psychological suffering share have some common elements, including in those areas they are processed; physical pain is psychologically influenceable (...)
[16/11/14 22:32] Azkhael:to a given extent, and so the other way around.
[16/11/14 22:33] AmberRune:Brain in disbelief. More shocked immediately, wakes up and collects sensory information after a while
[16/11/14 22:33] Aeoshattr: *nods* That is correct, indeed. Often psychological pain can be felt directly as physical pain (psychosomatic)
[16/11/14 22:33] Aeoshattr: *nods at Amber* That is what I was getting at. Realisation.
[16/11/14 22:34] Aeoshattr: (not 100% correct irl, but close enough; no point in going into minute details about types of neurons)
[16/11/14 22:34] Aeoshattr:Most of the time, Realisation - understanding of the implications that whatever caused the acute pain hurt more.
[16/11/14 22:34] Aeoshattr: (hurts*)
[16/11/14 22:35] Azkhael:But those differences and similarities are most likely the result of the still dominantly phenomenological understanding of pain.
[16/11/14 22:37] Aeoshattr:In a way, yes. You could say they are "laymen's" classifications.
[16/11/14 22:37] Azkhael:In all likelihood (...) there are systems exclusive to either of the two, and some mutual.
[16/11/14 22:37] Aeoshattr:Indeed, there is likely overlap between the two - it is arguable whether the two are separable or not, however.
[16/11/14 22:39] :Aeoshattr prods the skin below his wrist with the shard, between pushing it through
[16/11/14 22:39] Aeoshattr:Hm, between the bones. *chuckles*
[16/11/14 22:40] :Lintara jumps at the sight
[16/11/14 22:41] Aeoshattr: *rubs his chin* I would like to argue if pain is necessary.
[16/11/14 22:42] Aeoshattr:Either kind - despite the slight artificiality and inaccuracy of the classification. Do we truly need pain? After all, there are few that draw enjoyment from it.
[16/11/14 22:43] Lintara: *sighs, settles back down* Well, pain's usually a warning that something's wrong, isn't it?
[16/11/14 22:45] Aeoshattr: *nods* You could argue it's meant to keep you away from danger.
[16/11/14 22:45] Aeoshattr: *pulls the shard out of his wrist, holding it in his palm* To make a comparison, one could make the argument that fear is also meant to keep us away from danger.
[16/11/14 22:47] Aeoshattr:Would you agree they are similar in that way?
[16/11/14 22:49] :Assira the Black nods
[16/11/14 22:49] Lintara:Hurm, not exactly. Fear usually keeps from danger that might happen while pain warns that you are in danger right now.
[16/11/14 22:49] :Aeoshattr nods at Lin
[16/11/14 22:50] Aeoshattr:Yet that applies to the acute pain, and most of the time to physical pain only.
[16/11/14 22:50] Azkhael:I would concur, on the matter of biological desirability, at least.
[16/11/14 22:51] Azkhael:Though one could also claim that fear may fulfill a biologically advantageous function in social structures.
[16/11/14 22:51] Azkhael:And that, itself, may have been an advantage.
[16/11/14 22:52] Rophs:If I'm scared of something that'll end up eating me and avoid being eaten then that means the fear is working.
[16/11/14 22:52] Rophs: *nods* And I haven't been eaten yet, so I think it's going a good job.
[16/11/14 22:52] :Aeoshattr nods
[16/11/14 22:53] Aeoshattr:In a biological sense, fear and pain are similar. However, there are also instances where fear does us a disservice. And similarly, so does pain.
[16/11/14 22:54] Aeoshattr:To bring the analogy back around: fear of crowds. Fear of speaking out. Fear of rejection.
[16/11/14 22:55] Aeoshattr:They surely aren't trying to keep you out of harm's way. If anything... their purpose is to avoid pain, not to prevent danger. *chuckles*
[16/11/14 22:55] Aeoshattr:And that may restrict rather than protect sometimes.
[16/11/14 22:55] Aeoshattr:Similarly... pain. What is the purpose of grieving?
[16/11/14 22:56] Azkhael:Fear of rejection is more an advantage than a disadvantage, perceived within social cohesion.
[16/11/14 22:56] Azkhael:And let us say that social cohesion was, itself, advantageous to our survival.
[16/11/14 22:57] Aeoshattr:It may be beneficial to society - but not to the individual, not directly. *chuckles*
[16/11/14 22:58] AmberRune:if they're not removed or shunned by the group, they get to have safety in numbers. What's not individual about that?
[16/11/14 22:59] Aeoshattr:However, they must live with the pain, the constant fear of rejection.
[16/11/14 22:59] AmberRune:fear in that case isn't pain
[16/11/14 23:00] Aeoshattr:They are not the same, indeed. I used it as an analogy to bring up a point I believed to be relevant.
[16/11/14 23:01] Aeoshattr:What is the purpose of emotional pain?
[16/11/14 23:03] Azkhael:In nature, a social animal's survival is directly attached to that of their society.
[16/11/14 23:04] Azkhael:Not exclusively so, but proportionally so.
[16/11/14 23:07] Aeoshattr:Hm. *nods* Perhaps. But then again, that would be of use to the society rather than the individual.
[16/11/14 23:08] Rophs:Societies with this trait would prevail over societies lacking it, perhaps explaining why it is now so widespread.
[16/11/14 23:08] :Aeoshattr nods
[16/11/14 23:10] Aeoshattr:That may be. At any rate, I do not wish to encroach too much on Rophs' seedwalk.
[16/11/14 23:10] Aeoshattr:Furthermore, I do not wish to talk too much about what I have planned for the next sermon *chuckles*
[16/11/14 23:10] Rophs:Take as much time as you need, I insist.
[16/11/14 23:11] Aeoshattr: (I only planned taking one hour for this and it seems I've already covered just about everything I wanted to. For today)
[16/11/14 23:12] Aeoshattr:I would like, however, hearing more about what you think - if interested, I will set a question that I would like you to answer in a few lines.
[16/11/14 23:12] Rophs:Homework?
[16/11/14 23:12] Aeoshattr: (i.e. if you commit to this, let me know and I'll send you the question)
[16/11/14 23:12] Aeoshattr: *nods* You can call it that.
[16/11/14 23:13] Ailith: *hands up* I would like to receive the question
[16/11/14 23:14] Azkhael:Rophs, while it is not as easy to apply that thought to biology, what you speak of is comprehensively regarded by axiology.
[16/11/14 23:14] Assira the Black: *nods* I too would like the questions.
[16/11/14 23:14] Azkhael: (...) that societal forms and sets of values that lent to a greater social cohesion would often prevail over others that did not, as it favored those societies in competition.
[16/11/14 23:18] Aeoshattr: (Will type question and send it out; anyone else other than Ailith and Assira?)
[16/11/14 23:18] Rophs: [Forum link]
[16/11/14 23:20] Azkhael:Thank you for the notification, Rophs.
[16/11/14 23:20] Azkhael: (I'd be interested in your question, Aeoshattr)
[16/11/14 23:21] :Ailith nods to Rophs and smiles
[16/11/14 23:21] :[Spell] To my parchment scrollbook
 
[/spoiler]
 
TL;DR (summary)
[spoiler]
Pain can be categorised based on source (physical vs emotional) and based on characteristics (acute vs dull). Pain can exist in a multitude of combinations of those 4 arbitrarily defined types - but can also be different from either (as it was mentioned, trying to fit pain into "boxes" may be artificial, as there are overlaps between types).
[/spoiler]

Rophs, I think people know that they should make the content, but not many are willing to.
 
This is because there are two kinds of people and two kind of decision that can be made.
There are people who are capable to make (good) quests and those who are not capable. (capability isn't related to skill, but also "social status" and other factors)
Then one can decide if he wants to take the effort to make a quest or not to.
the mix of these gives the following results:
1) People who are capable decide to put effort into making quests.
2) People who are not capable decide to put effort into making quests.
3) People who are capable decide they won't try to make quests.
4) People who are not capable decide they won't try to make quests.
 
The 1st option is prefered, though there are always people that belong to the 4th category (no problem with that, I consider my self to fall in that category too. I am bad at organising events in general, so I prefer not to do it ).
 
The goal should be to move people from the 3rd category to the 1st, and filter out (and solve the problem, rehabilitate) the ones from the 2nd .
 
I think there should be a more strict procedure on how one can get help for a quest. Like Council first. They may go to Mur if necessary, but mainly recruiting the needed help. A more strict "chain of command" if you will. This way the issues that get to Mur may be cleared of accusations (like begging).
 
(Again, these are just suggestions and the way I see it after reading up on things here in the forum. Since I don't have time to read all the comments from the past years, I apologise if I suggested something that you already tried or discussed.)
 
 
 
Ailith, I think every multiplayer/online game has end content. I encountered this term in gaming. It is the last stage of the game. For you veterans I guess it is the quest you make for each other.
For newbies there is the implemented content (from mp3 to mp5, Loreroot guard, some puzzles...), exploration to get through. Once you feel that the game is geting boring that is the end game. When there is nothing new. ---> End games have end content, some are more some are less interesting.
I don't know how to phrase it better. Just look at other games and what is their end game/content, and look at MD and try to determine what the end game is in MD.
 
Since this is a social, RP game, the "end content" is the player made quests. Of course these quests can be accesed by new players too, but that is the unique structure of this game (players constantly create new content for each other).
 
The problem might be that for veterans the new content might not come quick enough (since they explored everything, done all static quests etc.). 
 
Also under content I mean things like implemented quests, but also player to player interaction(RP) is also a content. A rule of online/multiplayer games is that players are content for other players. (In a multiplayer shooter players are targets/teammates for each other, like the AI characters are in single player). 
 
 
Uhh, I got tangled up in writing all this down, I hope it makes ense. I need to improve my reasoning skill...

I am relatively new to MD, but I would like to give feedback on the topic of FUN. ( I don't want to be pulled into the drama that errupted recently.)
 
As a new player I am having fun. Mostly exploration, general questing and RP with people I meet. 
Maybe the veterans here reached a point called "end game content". It is the point where people start to get bored. They played this game for too long and are starting to burn out. So making MD better sounds like "how do we add more end game content" to me. I'm not saying that there is no room for improvement, but new players have a lot of things to do and catch up to the old ones. The problem you are having only applies to the veterans (well, some of you).
 
This is just an opinion of a newbie, just to add a different view on things. Take it as you will.

I am relatively new to MD, but I would like to give feedback on the topic of FUN. ( I don't want to be pulled into the drama that errupted recently.)
 
As a new player I am having fun. Mostly exploration, general questing and RP with people I meet. 
Maybe the veterans here reached a point called "end game content". It is the point where people start to get bored. They played this game for too long and are starting to burn out. So making MD better sounds like "how do we add more end game content" to me. I'm not saying that there is no room for improvement, but new players have a lot of things to do and catch up to the old ones. The problem you are having only applies to the veterans (well, some of you).
 
This is just an opinion of a newbie, just to add a different view on things. Take it as you will.

I am relatively new to MD, but I would like to give feedback on the topic of FUN. ( I don't want to be pulled into the drama that errupted recently.)
 
As a new player I am having fun. Mostly exploration, general questing and RP with people I meet. 
Maybe the veterans here reached a point called "end game content". It is the point where people start to get bored. They played this game for too long and are starting to burn out. So making MD better sounds like "how do we add more end game content" to me. I'm not saying that there is no room for improvement, but new players have a lot of things to do and catch up to the old ones. The problem you are having only applies to the veterans (well, some of you).
 
This is just an opinion of a newbie, just to add a different view on things. Take it as you will.

I am relatively new to MD, but I would like to give feedback on the topic of FUN. ( I don't want to be pulled into the drama that errupted recently.)
 
As a new player I am having fun. Mostly exploration, general questing and RP with people I meet. 
Maybe the veterans here reached a point called "end game content". It is the point where people start to get bored. They played this game for too long and are starting to burn out. So making MD better sounds like "how do we add more end game content" to me. I'm not saying that there is no room for improvement, but new players have a lot of things to do and catch up to the old ones. The problem you are having only applies to the veterans (well, some of you).
 
This is just an opinion of a newbie, just to add a different view on things. Take it as you will.

When you are making a quest you should ask yourself this question multiple times during the creation process:
 
Would I do this quest if someone else made it?
If the answer is yes then keep going If the answer is no then figure out why you wouldn't complete it and FIX IT

Those are just not fully implemented yet.

All clickables are "unlocked" since the very start :P
 
If you can click on them yet nothing is happening at all (no window is opening up) then that means they haven't been implemented to do anything.
 
If they open a window but you cannot see anything except the "speak words" bar, then this means that they have been implemented to be used by people who have code access to put info/quests/other stuff :). In this case, they may or may not have any info on them, depending on whether someone recently coded something onto the clickable.

Working on Time, which revealed itself with relative ease. I already had a mental grasp on the nature of some of these, making the distilling into symbols easier. Having a little trouble with Light, though. If you'd like, Fang (or anyone willing to expound a little!) we could hash out some aspects of the Light Principle?

So far, I've been considering the nature of lights reflectivity, how it moves in a sphere from a point and scatters across its environment. Also I was considering how everything projects a shrinking image of itself in a sphere around itself. This is true for aspects as well as physical reality. When Light is revealing say, a thoughtform of some sort, the information is projected from the source in the same way. I have a lot of thoughts about it but a more complete grasping of the concept would be ideal.

For Cyclicity, the idea was that in the inner or smaller circles, the entire symbol was reproduced. I can see why the symbol for Balance could represent Cyclicity. The idea behind the symbol was that it contained three sets of yin and yang, as well as two balanced and interlaced triplicate unified sets. Each triplicate represents a unified and solid aspect of reality that is at once whole and balanced with its opposite. Honestly a yin and yang probably would portray Balance very well, but then it is quite a multifaceted symbol. I did like how this symbol turned out though, with the hexagram in the center, another symbol balance and the uniting of opposites, which is in spiral.

These all were geared to be circle based, so they could be drawn around the perimeter of a larger circle. Maybe I will post a very basic sketch of that?

The following is a VERY long, personal and emotional post. I knew I had to end up making it sooner or later. I know that many of you will not change a single thought, and will misinterpret it, and will make a mess of it. This is for the few people that don't do all that.
 
 
 
I’ll start by saying that if I didn’t have faults, I wouldn’t be in the position I am right now. Some of you see more faults than there are, some see less, some are vocal about specific ones and make them a bigger issue than they are, and some you don’t even notice.
 
Throughout my time in MD, there have been two…. “phases” I’ve experienced. Sometimes they run separately, but sometimes they overlap. When they overlap, they either result in a lot of anger, or a brief period away from MD. What are these two phases?
 
The first is one in which I try really hard to fit into MD, tried to play “the good guy”, tried to do community stuff, and listened to way too many people. This was usually the time when I didn’t know my way around stuff. What did this cause? It caused “lack of self-respect” in me, “no guts”, “lack of sticking to one thing and constantly switching from one thing to another”, and a definite sense of “you can’t do anything in MD without help from XXX”. And of course, I ended up not pleasing anyone since people expect too much, and then all this was further multiplied by humiliation.
 
The second is when I did my own thing. This happened usually because of failure of the first phase, and hence mostly resulted in overlapping. I did just what I wanted to do, and it undoubtedly caused hatred against me because people are just too used to the old ways. They complain about and ask for change but don’t want to see it at all. What did this cause? It caused “wrong initiative”, “stupidity”, “lack of judgment” (what, to choose my own path? Should I start saying everyone’s judgments and interests are wrong because they don’t match mine?).
 
 
 
Then I’ve been asked what my motivations are. Why do I do this, why I act like this, and why don’t I just submit and become as the elite vets say "the proper MD ways"?
 
Since almost day one in MD, I’ve seen a horrible system in which a few people have the power to do anything and drive anything in MD the way they like if they choose. They can make life hell for someone they don't like, and they can ensure (or the famous word: approve) a person they like becomes very "successful" (I don't like to use this word since I believe everyone in MD is successful at some thing or the other).
 
Yes, I threw myself at the dirt and got myself ground on the floor and spat upon, because I will never be one to submit to this, that's just not me. I will never accept these "MD ways", because every way a person can forge in MD is an "MD way". 
 
What played a part in urging me on? Well it was the constant hate itself. I realized many things, some of which may be entirely wrong, but they are still things I believe in. What are these things?
 
First came the mere acceptance of the fact that whatever I did, I would always have people hating me for it.
 
Second came the hypocrisy of the people who accused others as hypocrites, just to hide their own. They convinced me that we lack judging skills and what not, and then we see them judge people based on their backgrounds, lands, and false assumptions. They say we don't know how to do anything right, and then we see them constantly becoming and being displayed as a bad example, someone not to follow.
 
And last of course, what hurt me most... that nobody tried to ignore my faults. You think I don't know that public speaking and community talk and "good explanations" is something I'm very bad at? And then you further rub it in my face by constantly twisting meanings. Everybody who judged me deliberately by the worst meanings, and not by my intentions, was shunned by me.
 
And then you force me to do community stuff, rather than letting me do it on my own without pressure, etc. Why? So that you have more ways to get at me. "I absolutely need community approval for this sort of thing." Oh really? Well maybe if you actually let me try, I might have had a small chance.
___________________________________________________
 
I'll stop here and move on to specifically Curi's post.
 
Know that I have nothing to do with vengeance and I hate every moment of this bickering. My intention was always to prove a point, which I'm sure is pretty clear. I would have reported anyone, not just dst and Eon. The fact that they actually were dst and Eon made no difference to my desire to end this pathetically horrible system I was talking about. Its something I'd been observing for a very long time and I finally got a chance to report it now (because earlier I was told that why do I care about something that's not my business).
___________________________________________________
 
Now comes Chew. The guy did more than anyone else has done for me, though he doesn't know the guilt I feel of being unable to repay him, or even convey how important he is to me. Yes, I told him not to speak to me for a while, and I still want that to continue, because things were getting very hurtful for both of us. If it makes him feel any better, I would have left MD long ago without him.
____________________________________________________
 
This is all I can speak for now. There's a lot more, but I just realized how long this is... so yeah... that's it. 

Actualy I am already at mp4 :)) (though I feel I progressed too fast). Maybe we can facilitate some buttkicking when I come back from my travels.

I am grateful that Chewett validated my forum account, so I can post here.
I am grateful that I have access to the internet.
 
On a more serious note:
 
I am grateful that I have loving parents who support me.
I am grateful that I was part of the best class in secondary school.

I drew some symbols for the Principles a while back and they have been gathering dust ever since. If anyone likes them, have at them!
 
 
 
Imagination

 
Balance

 
Cyclicity

 
Transposition

 
Time

 
 Syntropy

 
Elements

 
Entropy

 
Light

 
Darkness

Changed photos to a, hopefully, better quality.