Law Advisors

[Muratus del Mur]

md laws and regulations are scattered allover. It is not possible for a new player to know what is ok and what is not ok to do. Its true that most rules are common sense and its harder to break them than not to break them if your intentions are good. However, we need a better structure for this.

One way would be to have a neverending page with rules , md rules, murs rules, kings rules, rules over rules...OR..

or we can have it done md style, through people.

Take this as a suggestion, if there will be volunteers to such an initiative i will support it with appropriate tags and announce it as official

LAW ADVISORS
preferably comming from LHO ranks, these people will have to be updated always about what is ok and what is not ok in terms of rules in md, _announcements_ and punishments. These are not lawyers. Their activity will be to answer on forum or even interfere in certain situations based on their knowledge of the laws in md.
I prefer one of each land so that each one will be also familiar with the laws of that land as well with the general laws.

This role has potential in the future, depending on their activity, the people involved could act later as a intermediate layer between suggested rules and applied rules. They could later evolve in such way that their word would be law replacement, for example if a law advisor said "that is ok to do" and i come later and say "you die", the word of the law advisor will count as protection for the one doing the crime. but lets just focus on the current situation.

The law advisors can be formed as a guild (tribunal obviously) or as an independent role assigned to more people. I can also setup a "fund" for this and they could ask a coin for each advise they give in private. (funds functionality is still not fully implemented but will be)

requirements: good knowledge about current and previous announcements, all times, about how things go in md (how some rules are more or less applied), good communication skills (if you dont talk much you cant do this sort of role really). patience. initiative when needed and no initiative when not needed

so... feedback pls

[Pipstickz]

Well first off, I don't think this should be an actual guild, mostly because most LHOs already belong to a land, and because this looks to require more forum activity than in-game activity.

Second, for this to work well, you'd need a fairly varied group of individuals to minimize the bias.

Third, I volunteer.

[Rumi]

If this becomes a guild, let it be an odd number of members.

[Peace]

I find this to be an appealing idea! But I agree with Pipy.

All of us come from different lands and putting us into a guild may create conflict over loyalty even. I suggest a selected group of people who work together and interact with everybody. Within the forum and MD as well.

And, I would like to volunteer for Necrovion unless another citizen wishes to do so.

[Shadowseeker]

The biggest issue actually is the fact that these people need to be constantly accessible ingame somehow.

I'd rather suggest making a seperate forum branch and make a list with people who are supposed to be those advisers, and when they reply to the topic that's it. It could also be done via PMs if the issue is secret.

Still, I don't think it should just be volunteers, also being voted in. E.g. a panel of 5 members, who will be replaced based upon applications.

I'd be interested, but am going to apply later depending on how you do build this in.

[Dragual]

I agree, this shouldn't be a guild. But an odd numer is also a good idea reguardless... Just incase they need to vote.
And, I think I'm going to apply. I'm not an LHO but... I would like to be of more use to the game and this sounds not only significant, but fun.

Edited August 12, 2011 by ColdSteel566

[Burns]

That's a great idea, i love it!

Why would you need a guild with an odd number of members to do that? This is not intended as judging panel as i read it, but more as advocats, people that help clear something up for people preemptively, and not punish them after they have done wrong. If each single of the law advisors is to know about every rule etc., there is no reason why they would need to stick their heads together over everything before answering to some newbies.

And it's designed as ingame feature, not a forum mods, so there's no need for a forum branch imo. The advisors are to be accessible for newbies, and at least read the forums to see when something comes up, but if at all, the best section for that stuff is Q&A. As i understand it, this feature can start right away, no further modifications needed, just Mur's word that he actually means it.

And of course i'm in for it

[Shadowseeker]

No, just wanted to point out the inaccessibility of the ingame people though. For LHOs we have that button, for these advocats?

Forum topics have the advantage of being accessible no matter where people are.

[Chewett]

Anyone who i would consider to have a firm grasp of the rules has already joined a land or alliance. So to create a guild would be therefore to try and remove them from their land, which i think only the lest integrated would do so. Then you have the problem of filling an alliance with people who currently dont belong to a land and guild, which i dont see a great number who also are knowledgeable about the rules.

I would say that many of the vets do give guidance about things being allowed, I have a group of people who will come if i think X or Y is alright, and i would guess that many others have friends that will come to them to ask questions regarding the laws.

To me, you are trying to set something up, which in effect has already been set up because social norms already has it. You have groups of friends that you trust and ask if things are correct.

As for charging? I would never seek to charge my friends, Iv always said that advice is free, and any coding help is free as long as im not busy.

I would think that it would actually be better if you had a person or several persons in each land who you could go to. Then you know they are specifically knowledgeable about your land, and can help you more if the matter is a private land matter.

Edit: There are always issues with people obeying the laws, but the people who are going to be these advisors are going to have to be pretty intelligent if they are to "take the blame" for anything they are asked, Look at lifeline causeing issues at Drachorns cave, You would have assumed he knew the rules, But history says he didnt. And what about rules regarding alts and bugs? can i effectively get these people to take the blame of my testing and abusing becuase they said they thought it was ok?

Edited August 12, 2011 by Chewett

[dst]

Question: why rely on people when we can gather all rules and regulations on a big list (forum or in game, doesn't really matter)? And we can update the list as rules change or new rules are added or old rules are removed?
I agree that there are some gray areas in the rules but maybe having that list will help us reduce the gray areas.

[Chewett]

I like that idea, And concerning my latest project that can be done really easily not ingame or on the forum (if you dont understand, dont worry)

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1313114810' post='90037']
One way would be to have a neverending page with rules , md rules, murs rules, kings rules, rules over rules...OR..
[/quote]

[Burns]

[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1313137551' post='90053']
I would say that many of the vets do give guidance about things being allowed, I have a group of people who will come if i think X or Y is alright, and i would guess that many others have friends that will come to them to ask questions regarding the laws.

To me, you are trying to set something up, which in effect has already been set up because social norms already has it. You have groups of friends that you trust and ask if things are correct.
[/quote]

That's exactly what happened with Ailith, too. She already was doing the work she was tagged for before she was tagged for it (neutral mediator), yet her word counted more after she was officially recognized. If you ask people about loopholes these days, it's just an informal, personal opinion, and more often than not we just gamble around the edges of 'He hasn't done anything about it yet, it'll probably slip through unnoticed'. With people who are doing official statements on such matters, you have more... call it security. Mur mentioned that the advisor idea could evolve into a legal insurance, even, if the people at it are versed enough.

It might be something we're doing already, but when people are doing it with Mur-ish backup, it gets a lot more weight. Just like the asterikses for LHOs, the content stays the same, but the authority behind it changes.

[Kyphis the Bard]

A very interesting idea!
I feel I meet the criteria and would like to volunteer to represent the MDA (although we lack a ruler and hence land laws)

That said, I personally think that it would be best if being an LHO was a pre-requesite, as this allows for a forum in which to assess a candidates behavior in the sort of situation they would need to perform this role (This criteria would, of course, exclude me)

EDIT: If you do decide on having a representative from each land, and don't enforce a strict LHO criteria, I think it would be a good idea to have the king/queen of Loreroot, Necrovion, Golemus Golemicarum, and Marind Bell choose their own representative from their ranks, since they have the tools to do so.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Kyphis the Bard

[Fyrd Argentus]

People come in two types, those who catagorize people, and those who don't.

Seriously, the introverts will want to read the rulebooks, the extroverts will want to ask somebody. Keep both avenues open.

[BFH]

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1313139250' post='90054']
Question: why rely on people when we can gather all rules and regulations on a big list (forum or in game, doesn't really matter)? And we can update the list as rules change or new rules are added or old rules are removed?
I agree that there are some gray areas in the rules but maybe having that list will help us reduce the gray areas.
[/quote]

I think that will need to happen. Even thou law advisors should knows most of the rules, always one stupid idiot ask "and where it says I can't do this and that."

[Phantom Orchid]

I will offer to help from Loreroot, however this idea might/will play out.

[Grido]

LHO pre-requisite is nice, but possibly unnecessary for this, some of the features of the individuals should match though, such as patience and understanding et al.
What dst/BFH says is true, there are unwritten rules, even banable ones, so an updated list would be nice - perhaps ones the Law Advisor's have the ability to edit and keep up to date? The use of the individuals is then for understanding of the rules, rather than necessarily finding them out at all.

People tend to ask me legality things anyway, though of course in a less formal manor than what is being proposed.
So [b]I hereby apply as a Law Advisor[/b], I would not charge for this for the same reason Chewie states, advice is free.

If I did become one, I would not leave Golemus under any circumstance.

[Granos]

If nobody else is interested, since I somewhat do it already, I can be the "law advisor" for the Tribunal, Charging for advice is a silly notion though, the only way I could see people charging for this being viable is if they were going to be directly responsible for any bad advice they give and/or being able to make bribes to bend the legalities under certain circumstances. Which to my understanding would kind of undermine the whole point of this....

If this is needed? Not really people already are doing this to begin with, if anything it might help direct them to them quicker, but in the end it may lead to more unnecessary buracracy which will just distract people more-so from day to day things (IE - lead to people trying to get more laws, for the grey areas).

Maybe it will be a good thing though to help enforce the illusion of power over people or make others feel more rebellious (at least sooner in a "non-damaging" way)

The aspect of law replacement, is a dangerous notion and will really depend on the people involved--I mean imagine if I was allowed to do that?!

It will be interesting to see what happens with this--but I still think its not really needed, as it is geared towards vets rather than giving newer people roles...

Just my rambling opinion, take as you want...

[Pipstickz]

Disregard this stuff, actually:
[spoiler]So, after about a month and a week, if this is still something that has any appeal to Mur/Council, then I'd like to add a bit to my application:

Since I submitted initially, I've shown that I'm not afraid to fight a losing battle, or take the path less traveled, not just for the sake of fighting over something, but because I have a good sense of justice, and I'm not afraid to stand up for it.

On the note of the position and laws in general, I see this as something where people who want advice would come ask me if something was against the rules before doing it, not something where I'd be a vigilante and hunt wrong-doers down to force them to atone and such. Basically I'm trying to say that the main function is to help, not to punish. It's the Council or Mur's job to punish people for breaking the rules. If it were simply a list, it's black and white, people broke the rules or not and if they didn't see the page too bad, and (ironically) I don't think that's MD style, or IRL, really. Imagine a police officer looking over your shoulder while you were driving and writing you a ticket every time you went faster than the limit at all. If there were no grey area, I'm sure 90% of us would be ex-cons, and the rest would be good at running away. So yeah. Pick me and all that jazz.[/spoiler]
Kay stop disregarding, thanks.

Edit: No wait, don't pick me, instead I'll pick myself. Don't see why I need the Council to go ahead with this, duh. Except, I might need Chewett <<

So, I'd like to have at least two representatives from each land, and will be trying to contact some people and see what can be done about getting wheels on the ground for this. Please contact me if you have interest in taking part in this, and if I don't contact you first. I doubt I'll say no, but please make sure your king is alright with you being in this position.

y=yes, agreed, and whatnot
n=the opposite <<
People mailed:
Chewett(y) and Rhaegar(y) from Marind Bell

Grido(y), Burns(y) and Shadowseeker(n) from Golemus

Phantom, Shem(y), Amoran(y) and Mya from Loreroot

Kyphis(y) from the Archives

dst(n)

Phantasm from the Tribunal (also me, as soon as I can drive Mur into a corner somewhere)

[s]Regarding permission from kings and/or leaders: I expect everyone involved to do talk to their leaders themselves, and I expect the kings to talk to their citizens about any issues they might have. HOPEFULLY we can run the Law Advisers with no leader, strictly speaking, because everybody involved has different loyalties already, and I don't want to stretch them more. At the moment, I am only trying to organize this.[/s]

Might as well talk to the rulers myself, to be sure.

Edit: Added a (N), sorry pip, you forgot mine.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Shadowseeker

[Chewett]

When the positions were announced and not quickly formed i created a post offering free service to any and all MB citizens in the MB private forum. I offer this to anyone else who asks for not cost.

[Dragual]

How is this going? Who else has been accepted as a Law Advisor? Just them?

[Peace]

What about Necrovion's Law Advisors?

[Pipstickz]

Most of Necrovion's current citizens are younger players, other than yourself, and your activity is not stellar at times. At least, that is why [b]I[/b] did not approach any Necrovion people, while I was gathering members. I don't claim to speak for the Law Advisors, though.

[Peace]

My application still stands though.