Resource Depletion

[MoM]

it has come to my attention that some resources are being depleted rather quickly due to the fact that resources are 'shared'
if you go through LR, you'll find almost on every scene *Lone Wolf depletes herbs* the fact that the maximum that can be held sometimes goes up to 22, enabling ~ 7 herbs per day to be taken, why should we be able to take ONLY 1 per 4 days? and most of the times, it's not us who takes it... that's why I made this topic, for those who want to harvest resources the right way, but can't.

the thing is, if you know that someone will take that 1 herb if you don't, you'd be forced to take it, because it's going to be depleted anyway, but if the whole group knows that it WON'T be depleted, they'd leave it until it was 7.

this would be best for everyone, so (and this is of course independent of how MD actually runs, but rather players' efforts to stop it)

what I'd suggest, first and foremost is to do what the United Nations does, esp in the Security Council, if a decree is released, and not followed, all other nations in the UN are to exercise a type of 'ban' that disconnects that country from the rest of the world.
here, UN nations = harvesters, violating country = depleters, ban = ban, and world = MD

so I'd like to make a list of all the common resources (Fenths and Memory stones excluded, since Fenths don't regenerate, and memory stone devices are not shared)

and all the harvesters who are willing to follow this rule (don't harvest unless still be full the next day if you do harvest) and anyone who depletes will be dealt with accordingly, I'd also like to remind those who think this will never work about revolutions, if not for the fact that the concerned parties felt it was unfair, nothing would have happened, and yet, when it did happen, and thanks to their combined efforts, they could actually do something...

I'll make lists (1 for each resource) , tell me to add your name via forum, and I will, and together, hopefully, we will reach an MD where we can actually get enough resources for it to count.

also, if anyone wants to share any ideas with me, feel free to do so.



LIST :
Name (resource) : Agreed or Not
Pipstickz (Herbs) : Agreed
Lone Wolf (Herbs) :
Shemhajaz (Herbs) :
MoM (Herbs) : Agreed



also, I don't really know who grab it, make sure to tell me names of people who have it, and I'll ask them.

Edited September 19, 2011 by MoM

[Blood Prince]

I actually think what you propose is good. But how do we as a community enforce or punish the people who deplete resources is the question I have. When you say "dealt accordingly" I do not like that phrase. Since the dealing should be applied to everybody across the board. I will never say it will not work but I think it will not be consistently applied to all players. I'm pretty sure of that.

Do you think UN is fair for all? UN for me is a disgrace which is manipulated by powerful countries to their own betterment and economy full stop So I don't want MD to be like UN or have a set which functions like UN. That will be the last day I play this game if that happens.

[lone wolf pup]

Congratulations, someone finally decided to propose something. Why not wait until fight causes get implemented, if they do and are worth anything or community trade refusal to people who deplete it, assuming people can figure out who depletes resources.

There is also a flaw in the plan to restore public herbs, if it ever happens, only a few people who wakes up at the time when resources regenerate will actually be able to deplete resources to 2/3rds, the rests other good people, slightly late and slow, will be left with the remains of it, and if they do want to harvest, they still have to go further then just the known public areas to collect the resources of their choice, or you know, slightly tap a few of the resources past the set limit, and then tap it again, until more people repeat the same until it stays depleted. O wait, no help unless we stop harvesting.. shame, then why complain.. I wonder..

Also as a side note, I do not deplete LR herbs, there's a law against Lorerootians depleting those herbs. >>

[MoM]

Synex, I know the UN is unfair (I participated in MUN (model united nations) and was in the security council, so my trainers told me everything about how unfair it is and use it for myself) but what they do have is some type of balance, take it this way, if, in the security council, a small country which had 0.002% of the world's population, but was contributing to 5% of it's pollution (+ other factors...), they would all agree that this is too much.
it's almost the same here, you won't have that 'arguing' you want have all of the negatives in the UN...
also, I never wanted MD to turn into UN, I wanted it to just DO SOMETHING, and I used the UN to show what I mean, and as for the 'treated accordingly', well that's the hard part, what can we actually do? I can attack lock and mirror ritual him/her, someone might movelock him, other will silence him, heck, if we're lucky (and they are MP5) we might get the chance to trap him/her with Eon...
since it will be community effort, it can not and will not be something like 'go to Mur' or 'report him/her' it's whatever we can do to teach them a lesson...


as for LWP, fight cause can not be used for a lower level, and there might not be enough ppl online at the same place and time to actually have an effect...
and as for the flaw you mentioned, well you should remember that to harvest, you'll need items, which also depend on time zones, so if ppl act well, ppl from all time zones will get a chance to harvest, week-in, week-out maybe, but still.
and if you're still not convinced, then tell me this : would you rather a person harvest 28 in 4 days, then go around selling, I dunno, 5 for 1 silver, than you get in these 4 days, only 1?
resources can be sold, and if a lot of quantity is present, the price will drop, simple economics.



Edit : by the way, I think that the council actually is a UN for mischief and wrong-doings...

Edited September 17, 2011 by MoM

[Blood Prince]

Yup you seem to agree with me on the implementation side. I would rather not take Eon into the equation and say we should teach the other guy a lesson. Eon is a problem itself far as I see it and is sending the balance of the whole community into pieces and lot of MP5 are not idle (outside of sanctuaries, even a sanctuary is not safe since some random person provides memory stones to take people out and attack) any more due to skill damage.

I like the idea of everybody collecting resources otherwise there will be a monopoly of few main accounts and alts. I would rather like to see the system enforcing some limit per player for a period of time say 3 - 4hours. But that too has practical exploitations.

[lone wolf pup]

A person can harvest as much as they want if they take the effort to go to Tribunal. I would be one of the ones benefiting from public resources being restored, yet I highly doubt it ever will due to greed and no community effort.

[Pipstickz]

[b]This[/b] is a community effort.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Pipstickz

[lone wolf pup]

Sorry I meant previously. No one before him had even bothered gathering others to stop besides stating so in chat.. which seemed ineffective..
Also, refusing to trade with the person is a bad idea? >> Darn..

[Brulant]

I like this idea, so I'll make a suggestion.

When you have your list of everyone who agrees to this rule, MoM, why not create a dynamic gathering schedule?

Pros:
1) Everyone who has a gathering tool that week, regardless of when they are awake and able to play, will be able to gather the maximum amount of the resource that is deemed 'fair'.
2) It's easy to see who breaks the schedule if you have a schedule.
3) Everyone will begin to accumulate resources which will drop the prices of resources overall and encourage economic movement in MD… but that's an entire topic on its own.
4) It's more 'fair' for everyone.

Cons:
1) You're still going to have to figure out what to do with the people who refuse to agree to the overall rule.
2) It takes a lot of work to make a good schedule.
3) People might be inclined to break the schedule, but, see Pro 3.
4) Who decides what 'fair' is?

Just my two cents.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Brulant

[phantasm]

alot of good points brulant. Main problem is as they said GREED. There is no stopping that. People will find ways around it. Making alts and being on right when tools spawn in order to gather more resources for themselves. (while illegal yes, we all know it goes on ALOT) They will have friends farm it, then cut them a share in order to keep resources from getting outside the 'circle of friends'. There are always many ways around things in this game as there are in life. You see this sort of thing happen all the time *COUGH OIL OIL COUGH*. I do however agree completely that there are many issues with this that are in dire need of being addressed. I do not like to see the Tribunal resources attacked ruthlessly either.

[Pothos]

Actually lone wolf, You cannot just go to the tribunals and take them all. People, myself included, make that trip rather often and, for a very nice change of pace, the rules are followed with those resources. I managed to gather a very reasonable amount of resources while I was there, and I left enough that the next person could gather the same amount the next day.

So.. Yea. The tribunals is a good example of what you should do, where people can get some very nice amount of herbs every day, instead of having to wait for a resource that some greedy fool depleted.

[xrieg]

[quote name='phantasm' timestamp='1316353463' post='92192']
alot of good points brulant. Main problem is as they said GREED. (...) I do not like to see the Tribunal resources attacked ruthlessly either.
[/quote]
Greed is not a problem - nobody really had time to stack enough resources so that they will climb high in price. Lack of foresight is as one could harvested much more if resources were left at optimal level. Especially in Tribunal I do not get depletors - after all there is fo few ppl harvesting there that depleting them there is weird to say the least.
Most ppl do not care about resources either way. A few ppl harvest multiple resources for fun and hopefully profit. And finally - another few just deplete - by role or just 'if I don't take it now somebody else will do for sure'; vicious circle. And these depletors are either naive - or difficult to identify (I know of 2 and heard about existence of one more). The only effective option the way I see it is to grab all tools at once at regen hoping no depletor will be fast enough (huh no real hope here I guess) and give them to 'trusted' ppl with provision not to deplete below optimum. I briefly considered doing that but I do not like it, effective ot nor.

BTW Tribunal herbs are also currently depleted (well 3/35 is practically so)....

Edited September 18, 2011 by xrieg

[Brulant]

[quote name='phantasm' timestamp='1316353463' post='92192']
Main problem is as they said GREED. There is no stopping that. People will find ways around it. Making alts and being on right when tools spawn in order to gather more resources for themselves...
[/quote]


[quote name='xrieg' timestamp='1316355985' post='92194']
Greed is not a problem...
[/quote]

I would say that greed is [u]the[/u] problem right now. However, I would also say that it's an entirely fixable one. All people need to do is think about what happens in the future instead of just what is happening in the present.

It's not greed as in "I will hoard all of the resources!" it's greed as in "Oh, look, there's 14/20 herbs here, what could taking one more hurt?"
I think that a schedule would address both types, though. It hinges on people being logical, though. Which is what makes it hard

Let's look at the first scenario: "I will hoard all of the resources!"

If there's only one person thinking that way and depleting all of the resources, it's pretty obvious to see who it is. There would be mass shunning, people might refuse to trade with them, we as a community would find some way to punish them. If there are a few people doing this, it's still pretty obvious. Just go ask everyone on the schedule up until that point, and if they have 47 of each herb, I think you've found the culprit.

The second scenario, "Oh, look, there's 14/20 herbs here, what could taking one more hurt?", requires a similar fix, but it's much more draconian.
- You check in at the beginning of the week with the amounts of resources that you have.
- Week goes on.
- Check in at the end of the week.
- If amounts have increased as they should, nothing wrong.
- If you have more herbs than you should, you get in trouble.
(I foresee alt abuse problems with that, though.)

I hate that we would have to police ourselves like that. We shouldn't have to. But, right now, it's the only way I can that would let the entire Realm have fair access to the resources. It's stupid, but necessary.

Really, all it takes is for people to realize "Oh hey, I can gather 15 herbs this week instead of 1, maybe" and then it should straighten itself out. All you have left are the people who are just depleting out of pure spite or the people have who the minor greed problem, which the schedule should fix.

One more thing (my this is turning into a long post). I've never had any problems getting any of the tools that I want after the resets that occur in my timezone. On the first day, I started in the Tea Market and ended up with one of everything. I didn't hold on to any of the tools except my teapot though. Because, really, all you need is tea.

[MoM]

actually, the greed problem is harder to solve than that, it comes in a third form :
"darn, it's the third day in a row that I'm too late to get even one - AGAIN, that's it, I'll take more than it's allowed, because if I don't, I'll never get any"
doing a limit per person would solve that, but here another problem arises :
"I don't deplete, but I'm going to take as much as I can whenever I can without letting it drop to below 66%"
some people just believe that since they showed up early, they have enough right to take as much as they want, and since they're NOT depleting, they're being fair, but greedy, and after a few times of that happening, we have saying one again...
of course, the regeneration interval helps, but what for those unlucky soles where 0:00 st happens to be 3 midnight? I - personally - wouldn't stay up that late just to grab some resources, esp considering I'd most probably have school, and some might have work...

one more thing, all this talk is great, but it will be useless if we don't start, I think that if we start working something out, it will start to form itself, so in the first post, I'll write a table containing names of those who harvest, and (via pm or in forum) I'll get to know whether or not they agree on taking some action or not, also another thing to do is to make the public aware, those 'newer' players who just happen to be lucky enough to grab a water bucket might deplete all the water in the place, without knowing the consequenses of his actions, also, please tell me names of harvesters so I can ask them, and/or ask them yourselves, and tell me if they're ready to do this,


[size="4"][size=7]SUMMARY SO FAR [size=3](ready for change) [/size][/size][/size]

[size="4"][size=7][size=3]1. Resources must NEVER go below 66% of their maximum[/size][/size][/size]
2. Players will be restricted to harvesting a certain amount of every resource per week, and exceeding this amount will be treated as if someone has depleted a resource
3. Players who break these rules will face a communal punishment, such as a limitation on trade, and anything and everything that the community can do to make sure this will not be repeated.

[Brulant]

[quote name='MoM' timestamp='1316365827' post='92208']
actually, the greed problem is harder to solve than that, it comes in a third form :
"darn, it's the third day in a row that I'm too late to get even one - AGAIN, that's it, I'll take more than it's allowed, because if I don't, I'll never get any"
...
[size=4][size=7][size=3]1. Resources must NEVER go below 66% of their maximum[/size][/size][/size]
2. Players will be restricted to harvesting a certain amount of every resource per week, and exceeding this amount will be treated as if someone has depleted a resource
3. Players who break these rules will face a communal punishment, such as a limitation on trade, and anything and everything that the community can do to make sure this will not be repeated.
[/quote]

Actually actually, the schedule would solve that too. If you're one of the designated (arbitrary number) 5 people chosen to gather on that day, then there will _always_ be some resources for you to gather.

The way I'm thinking about it is like this...

Example ~ Herbs in Loreroot.
There are 48-50 herbs available for gather every day if you allow them to regenerate to max each day.
Let's just say that there are 14 herbs baskets available (I don't know what the actual number is. If someone who does know could tell me it would make this example work out better ).
So, that means that if you designate 2 people to gather each day, everyone can gather 24-25 herbs EACH per week in Loreroot alone.
I think that that's pretty fair.

Things to think about:
1) If you miss your designated day, do you get a chance to make it up?
2) Can people swap time slots?
(My personal answers are 'No' and 'Of course'.)

That sort of works in to your second rule.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Brulant

[Pipstickz]

So, can we get a list of people going?
As someone who commonly grabs (at least) an herb basket, I will agree not to deplete resources when gathering.

[MoM]

seems this will just die...
and now that we know what fight cause is, I don't think it will really help, anyway, I'm not sure how resources are (was in GG all this time) I'll be out today hopefully, and I'll start trying to do something at the park...

[Chewett]

If you leave it, it will die, if someone takes it unto themselves to do something, it might have a chance.

[nadrolski]

So just you know who [i](taken 02:38 ST Day 11 Year 7)[/i]

[img]http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7946/eon011212.jpg[/img]

[Esmaralda]

Aye, she did that in a number of locations.

[attachment=3579:Eon.jpg]
[attachment=3580:Eon_Fountain.jpg]
[attachment=3581:Eon_NoOne.jpg]

[nadrolski]

[url="http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/3408/noone011212.jpg"]No eon[/url]

[Kaya]

I gathered a few screenshots of (near) depletion and abusive harvesting. Uploaded them to photobucket because there are to many to put them in one post.
They are at [url="http://www.photobucket.com/mddepletion"]http://www.photobucket.com/mddepletion[/url].
At the moment I have (between brackets is the amount of screenshots I have and of what resource):

Boterham (2 Herbs)
Child of the Soul (1 Herbs, 1 Lumber) He did apologize though
DST (1 Herbs)
Eon (3 Water, 6 Herbs) might have some duplicates with previous posts
No one (2 Herbs)
Passant the Weak (1 herbs)
Zyrxae (1 Herbs) may be more deeper in the Tribunal, didn't have AP and time to look

This is what I found the past week. I'm actually a bit surprised about how much I found especially because I didn't search for depletion every day.

[nadrolski]

[url="http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7554/eon011312.jpg"]eon @ Fenth Beach[/url]

Day 16 Year 7 Update: @ Wind's Game [url="http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/1701/eon011712.jpg"][i](taken 05:55 ST)[/i][/url]

Edited January 17, 2012 by nadrolski

[Neno Veliki]

eon depletor
[attachment=3595:eon depletor.jpg]

Edited January 15, 2012 by Neno Veliki

[Pipstickz]

At this point, I'm fairly sure that most people believe that Eon depletes resources, is there any reason to continue posting proof of it?