Yrthilian Retired King abusing power he no longer should have

[Kiley]

The following is a letter sent to my fellow guild members (originally to lashtal, then copied to others) after inviting Azull into the Fusioneers. I don't feel there is anything further I can add that each of you will not find in my original words.

I invited Azull into the guild as a preemptive way to protect the guild during my long absense (real life:)). With the guild full there is no way anyone can enter. I had to make this quick decision as I awoke to find out that two allys had been taken over. With little time on my hands I reached out to my fellow guild members while also protecting our guild from a possible outside threat--utilizing yet another option. Azull may have entered the guild, but trust me when I say that he will do nothing to jeopardize my standing within GG..I would go further to say that even as an NV leader he would protect both me and the guild. My top priority is protecting both GG and the Fusioneers. The few land loyalty points Azull will gain is a small price to pay to ensure that our alliance remains safe. Azull will not betray the trust I have placed in him. On this you have my word lashtal. Times are changing and I find it interesting that a leader from NV and a leader of a GG guild have come together in a cohesive fashion. haha..i think Azull and myself may have made the history books:)))) always, k

Edited December 30, 2011 by Kiley

[Muratus del Mur]

Currently i have no time to deal with this situation, so i ask council to step in and do something. While doing so please consider the following:

- king items were not given on time so taking them away will be done with considerable delay too
- kings are no longer kings, even if they do have the items. They don't have the right to decide, but they have the power to do. There is no restriction on how items are used once you have them.
- when taking abilities and tools away from ex-king, it was in my intention , and i pass it as my personal wish to whoever will finish this update, to give them something like one more round of each of their ability to use as they please for a last time ANYTIME this happens. This for example can be achieved by cloning king items and set them to vanish after a set number of uses. Please keep a non-limited copy on my account (Muratus del Mur) to be ready for whatever leader will be later). Yrthilian is to keep his item creating ability and i am willing to grant Firs the right to keep one of his king abilities but only if it is perfectly fitted to his role from now on (to be discussed anytime, contact me in january when you can). The king crown will remain as a medal for all people that ever reached kingship. In case I removed it by mistake from an ex king, contact me to put it back.

That being said, the remaining tools and abilities can now be removed

[Fire Starter]

Just taking this out of the context - does this mean that a rebeled necrovion can never become a GG citizen?

[Sasha Lilias]

I am posting here before I read so as I post JUST my views.

Yrthilian is [b]no longer king[/b]. Therefore he has no higher authority other Golemus than that of Quas over the Undergrounds. He may be seen as a spiritual leader still, but he [b]does not [/b]have the authority to say who is allowed in or out of an alliance in Golemus. He has that right, but he declined it. As far as this matter goes you have done nothing more than abuse your powers and made your retirement nothing more than a simple lie.
As far as I see it, you have retired, that does not mean that you still must hold the fort and throne whilst a new king is elected.

You abandoned your land as their leader, and now you decide to dictate who they may have in their alliances? Ridiculous.

I am [b]fully[/b] on Azull's side here.

~Sasha

[Pipstickz]

I knew Yrth was xenophobic, but not others in GG. This is good to know.

[Shadowseeker]

That would mean we are afraid of people walking or recruiting, Pip.

It is not xenophobic to reject someone who joins solely for his own benefits.

[Azull]

[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1325452830' post='99302']
That would mean we are afraid of people walking or recruiting, Pip.
It is not xenophobic to reject someone who joins solely for his own benefits.
[/quote]
My problem is not with being rejected as a GG citizen, but getting banned for it.
It's been four days now since I have been jailed. And for what?
Any one of you supposed Golemus land leaders could have come to me and told me to leave. Or asked the Fusioneers leader to expel me from her guild.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Azull

[Shadowseeker]

In the end it comes down to that you feel it was excessive force.

But that's exactly the point of making an example of you, or not? I'd think the others would agree with me there, given that you were the first to test getting Golemian land loyalty.

While as Maebius pointed diplomacy is a nice method to resolve things, your PM or prior questionning was both not- thus leading to a massive fist slamming onto the table.

If as you said you respect us enough to expect us to ask you, why did you not ask us first?

[Azull]

[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1325455097' post='99306']
While as Maebius pointed diplomacy is a nice method to resolve things, your PM or prior questionning was both not- thus leading to a massive fist slamming onto the table.[/quote]
Please explain this sentence to me, because I don't understand it. Are you saying my asking the fusioneers leader for an invite and my pm to grido was not diplomatic?

[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1325455097' post='99306']
If as you said you respect us enough to expect us to ask you, why did you not ask us first?
[/quote]
As I said in a previous post. I felt that with the lack of official leadership in GG asking the guild leader was enough. In addition to that I sent a pm to Grido explaining my intentions. Neither him nor you later voiced any objections to me being in that guild.

Furthermore the reason for banning me as stated by your retired king was that no Necrovian is allowed in Golemus. I was without a homeland when I asked for an invitation.
And the duration of this banning is apparently undetermined.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Azull

[Shadowseeker]

I am hardly someone who is officially a voice for GG. Kelle'tha holds neutrality, to a certain degree. That would be Grido, Burns, etc.

And no, it was not. Your PM to Grido was neither requesting, nor informing of you ever retreating if requested- it was a bold proclamation saying I will do this, essentially.

Regarding lack of official leadership: If you say you accept some people as golemian leaders who could request you to stop doing it- why did you never ask any of these before it happened, and instead complain now afterwards? Kiley never asked any of them either, as far as I heard. So again- why should anyone ask you, the [i]intruder[/i], if you never asked first?

Edit: Since you mentioned you having no homeland- that was caused by the TW being taken over. Which, is not our fault. And, the ban could easily be lifted if your king was still there, using his abilities to remove the tag and granting you refuge. If council states this usage of power was correct, then that usage would also be correct. Again, also not our fault that you no longer have one. If council states this was misuse, then you would get fixed up as well.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Shadowseeker

[Azull]

I was under the impression that my pm to Grido implied the possibility of open communication about this.
apparently I was wrong.

[Pipstickz]

So now it's the citizen's responsibility to make sure they're allowed to join the land they're joining? If I get an invitation from SoE, should I go ask Handy to be sure that she's ok with me joining, even if Chewett has said it's fine? Where in the Golemus land laws does it say anything about any of this?

[Shadowseeker]

Until we get a ruling from council it it pointless anyways, but if you ask me, yes.

If you have a ruler, you getting citizenship, even through proxy of alliance, puts you under rule of that leader. (Arguments will make no sense till we get an answer to whether the kings are still defacto regents or not from council).

Why do you need a rule, when common sense explains it?

Edit: No point making a new post now, but...it is clearly stated that if you join a land, you obey that leader. So if you think Handy is still the leader right now, ofc it makes sense to ask her first. If you don't you don't ask her. So what else am I supposed to say to that?

Edited January 1, 2012 by Shadowseeker

[lone wolf pup]

Some would argue some of the rules that are placed are common sense, so what is your point in that question.

Edit: guess we have to wait for someone to declare do retired kings have authority over people when they resign. And if it's ignored then let them abuse Azull in jail since no one declared it as wrong.

Edited January 2, 2012 by lone wolf pup

[Paracelsus]

So what happened is the following....?

1-Yrthilian stepped down as king of GG (or at least he said so, now he says he still is kind of king, confusing but not really important i think)

2-Azull asked Kiley to be part f the Fusioneers

3-Kiley invited Azull into the guild as a preemtive way to protect the guild

4-Seems Azull accepted the invitation and then became a Fusioneers and so a GG citizen

5-Azull informed Grido he was joining the fusioneers.

6-Azull was jailed

Now i wonder if point 1 didn't ever happened (lets guess yrth never resigned), should Azull be jailed for accepting an invitation in to a guild?

i mean in any case they should deal with the guild leader to see why she accepted someone who wasn't supposed to be accetped....

Its like someome who works in a shop invites you there, so you go in and some responsables of that shop jail you cause they THINK you're up to no good ... they don't kick you out of the shop they jail you...... XD

[Yrthilian]

So since most of you ignored what has already been said many times over.

Re read Murs post as he says the people whom still had the tools could use them.
even without that you have also ignored the fact that the decision to do what i did was not just mine. (action was taken with the backing of the land leaders)
Yes the council need to post something and make a statement of what they feel should or should not be done.

@Asull just because you lost your land citizenship does not mean you are not necrovian. That is like saying i was kick from Ireland so i am no longer Irish.
the fact you had no citizenship does not take away from what people see you as and that is necrovian.

Those asking about the citizenship rule go read the bloody rules they state no necrovian is allowed in Golemus.

AGAIN you all ignore the retirement statement. I said i was resigning but will still take care of the land until a replacement is in place

so new we wait for council to comment on this matter as mur already has but seems you do not listen.

[Kiley]

Upon accepting the position as guild leader I was given full power over how the guild should be run and have acted accordingly. I do not have to go to the "land leaders" in regard to the decisions I make. I would also point out that at no time did any "land leaders" approach me about my choice to bring Azull into the guild. I woke to find him jailed and not even a pm in my box. The truly sad part behind all of this lies in the fact that Azull and I have worked many months to develop a level of trust and cooperation between lands traditionally divided. Months of work that has been washed down the drain by a rash act that lacked diplomacy and tact. I am more than disappointed in how this has been handled and would have hoped that yrth would have spoken with ME personally before jailing Azull.

[Passant the Weak]

Going slightly offtopic: I agree with Paracelcus. Beyond the retired king thingy, there is a very strange behaviour of Golemus as a land: they jail someone, because he was invited in a GG guild.... That attitude, puts a negative light to GG in my eyes. If they had an issue with him joining that guild.... well, couldn't they have him off the guild?

[Chengmingz]

I feel that Kiley had the jurisdiction over this matter as she is the Alliance Leader she determined that her actions would keep her land and alliance safe. Although the King has influence, the decision was hers to make.

I understand the King's stance on the Necrovion crossing to GG issue but i want to let him know that the world isn't perfect. Rules are there to guide us, but sometimes we may have to bend them to do what we think is right.

C

This thread asked for my opinion I think, so there it is.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Chengmingz

[Mallos]

[size=3][size=3]Part of the land rules:[/size][/size]

[size=3][size=3]"The king and leaders of Golemus have the right to refuse/reject or remove anyone joining any guild or alliance in Golemus as well as citizenship in general."[/size][/size]

As for kicking Azull from the alliance that was the land leader's decision. I don't think it should have gone so far as to jail him though.

[lashtal]

Since Yrthilian's position is somehow border-line, since the decision to jail Azull was taken accordingly to the "land leaders", since neither Yrth nor the "land leaders" spoke with Kiley (who is the Fusioneers leader)...

I'd ask the "land leaders" to state clearly:

- who they are;
- why should other Golemians acknowledge their leadership (are they elected, chosen by the king, self-declared?);
- how do they relate with the king and the guild leaders;

and most of all: how would they explain this lack of diplomacy towards the Fusioneers leader.

Edited January 2, 2012 by lashtal

[Yrthilian]

[quote name='Kiley' timestamp='1325465447' post='99324']
Upon accepting the position as guild leader I was given full power over how the guild should be run and have acted accordingly. I do not have to go to the "land leaders" in regard to the decisions I make. I would also point out that at no time did any "land leaders" approach me about my choice to bring Azull into the guild. I woke to find him jailed and not even a pm in my box. The truly sad part behind all of this lies in the fact that Azull and I have worked many months to develop a level of trust and cooperation between lands traditionally divided. Months of work that has been washed down the drain by a rash act that lacked diplomacy and tact. I am more than disappointed in how this has been handled and would have hoped that yrth would have spoken with ME personally before jailing Azull.
[/quote]

First Kiley as a GG leader you of all players should know the land rules and know that a necrovian citizen is NOT allowed in Golemus.
as a land leader you are also expected to know better and should have know your action had a much bigger issue that you say.
It is very disappointing you decided by your self you know better how a land should accept a player into a land.

The same could have been said that you should have contacted me or the other land leaders before letting a necrovian into Golemus
you say land leader did not approach you and same in reverse.

[quote name='Passant the Weak' timestamp='1325479029' post='99338']
Going slightly offtopic: I agree with Paracelcus. Beyond the retired king thingy, there is a very strange behaviour of Golemus as a land: they jail someone, because he was invited in a GG guild.... That attitude, puts a negative light to GG in my eyes. If they had an issue with him joining that guild.... well, couldn't they have him off the guild?
[/quote]

He was told by a citizen of Golemus that he may get jailed. ALL it take is to read the land rules to know that he was not acceptable as a citizen of Golemus
So far only 1 player has been jailed that is not accepted as a citizen so your argument of the strange behaviour is mute as this is a single case of this happening.


[quote name='lashtal' timestamp='1325503329' post='99366']
Since Yrthilian's position is somehow border-line, since the decision to jail Azull was taken accordingly to the "land leaders", since neither Yrth nor the "land leaders" spoke with Kiley (who is the Fusioneers leader)...

I'd ask the "land leaders" to state clearly:

1 - who they are;
2 - why should other Golemians acknowledge their leadership (are they elected, chosen by the king, self-declared?);
3 - how do they relate with the king and the guild leaders;

and most of all: how would they explain this lack of diplomacy towards the Fusioneers leader.
[/quote]

First how little you know before asking such questions tut tut tut
it again is kiley is just as guilty for lack of diplomacy as you say.
As a land leader you have the right to run your alliance as you wish but when it come to matter of the LAND you don't have the right to decided by yourself.
it is that simple.

answer to the above
1. read the forums and you would know who the leader are it has been mentioned many times by me and the others. stop being lazy
2. LOL again lazyness has failed you here too. read of the past and you will have your answers.
3. wow really you should actually read the forums. your lack of information is what blinds you to the happening of a land.

the same as the lack of diplomacy from the Fusioneers leader.

Look it is like this.

Keily has the right to bring in members she feel FIT with the alliance.
But it is also expect that she will not bring in someone into the land that is a know hostile
it is also expect as a land leader and leader of the Guild that she will abide by the rules of the land (in this she has broken them)
My action that i took was not as a king but as a player with the power and requested to do so.

Yes there was a big breakdown in communication and from my point of view and from what i seen
action was needed to be taken quickly. The jailing is just part of what the tool does.
This is more an issue between Necrovian and Golemus from a diplomatic point of view.
The issue of king.ex king is also mute. as per murs response.

You know this whole issue would never have happened if one player had read and abide by the land rules.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1325506420' post='99369']
answer to the above
1. read the forums and you would know who the leader are it has been mentioned many times by me and the others. stop being lazy
2. LOL again lazyness has failed you here too. read of the past and you will have your answers.
3. wow really you should actually read the forums. your lack of information is what blinds you to the happening of a land.
[/quote]

I am unsure as to who exactly these land leaders are, From knowing GG leadership being friends with you all, im guessing Grido, Yrth, Akasha, SS, Burns, MB "Might" be involved, but as for a definitive list i dont know. I checked on the forum using searching ect and cannot find any specific post naming these land leaders.

And i dont think you could accuse me of not reading the forums

So perhaps, to aid us, one specific post could be made naming them, and what they do? For all of us.

[Kiley]

I would agree yrth that there was indeed a breakdown in communication, and for this I take full responsibility. I would go on record to note that at the first chance I had, I did in fact reach out to one of the land leaders (what was done with this information is unknown to me). Ultimately as you will see from my first post, my main goal was protecting both GG and the guild, I simply choose to utilize a unorthodox "plan of attack". I will always respect the course of action taken by the leaders of the land, it does not however mean that I have to agree with them.

You speak of this being diplomatic in nature, and I would totally agree as well. I can't help but question that you/leaders think jailing a prime figure in NV is an appropriate and diplomatic approach in handling this issue. Viewed from a different angle it could have, and in my mind should have been, a prime moment in history where the stars were aligned (so to speak:P) for NV and GG to come together for a common goal.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Kiley

[Shadowseeker]

As I stated before, I am not one of the land leaders- I provide counsel, but am not.

Alliance leaders are supposed to be (I gather Kiley was on probation period or she actually has access- idk exactly). Grido, Yrth, Ak(inact regarding land matters), Burns, Indy, MB(inact), MRA (probational? idk at all, ask them), ought to be the list last I checked. At the very least Grido and Burns are clear people to talk to, even if the others are not known.

In case anyone wants to say I am one, defacto, well..I do not have land leader forum access, so I am not.