Illusions and Alliance status

[Prince Marvolo]

There seems to be something tricky about mixing Illusions with kicking someone from the alliance.

Someone is in an iIllusion, and get's kicked.
When the illusion is reset, the settings of the player are put back to the settings before the illusion (in this case, also before the kick)
This means, that said player is returned into the alliance, even when recieved a kick.

I discussed this with Mur, and he told me this should be discussed with more people.


Mur believes the 'bug' here, is not being able to kick a person when in an illusion, otherwise the change is futile.

[b]Should it be possible? Should it be fixed? How would it be fixed?[/b]



My personal opinion, is that illusion reset should not be able to interfere with alliance status.
Not being able to kick someone in an illusion, I think, makes it much too overpowered.
It is a cloak, yes. But you can still punch someone who wears a cloak right? (Maybe I've got to re-test that in RL, but I'm pretty sure it works )



Thank you for your time, and please leave your thoughts about it

[Burns]

Illusions are designed to interfere with alliance, as such, i think it's even a necessity that the old ally status gets reset when the illusion ends.

I've had wodin's guard in my ally, who is unkickable because it's an illusion, but he can't do anything inside, either.
It would be extremely annoying if you were illusioned for some days to play on a mission, as illusions are set, and then find yourself stripped from your real alliance while being unable to do something about it, which is obviously a very special problem for leaders.

If an ally member goes disguised for a while, they're still members, but can't do anything inside during the time disguised. It would be highly unfair if a person could be kicked from their real ally while they are stuck in the illusion ally, even more so if the person kicked is the leader of an ally.

When Peace kicked me from my ally, i wasn't happy about it, either, but that was fair and square, i could've gotten a higher loyalty count to stop her. If I do everything in my power, and still lose, fine. But if i lose without having a chance to fight, that's not fine.

[Shemhazaj]

[quote]I've had wodin's guard in my ally, who is unkickable because it's an illusion, but he can't do anything inside, either.[/quote]

[color=#808080][i]really? Soldier of Loreroot is kickable. Tested that myself.[/i][/color]

[quote]If I do everything in my power, and still lose, fine. But if i lose without having a chance to fight, that's not fine. [/quote]

[color=#808080][i]ok, but look at it from the other side. If I do everything to take over an alliance but you can't win anyway coz of an illusion?[/i][/color]
[color=#808080][i]also doesn't seem fine...[/i][/color]

[Seigheart]

If you get kicked from an alliance while in an illusion, at the end of the day, you're still a person in an illusion. Meaning, that the alliance kick is still an alliance kick.

Just because you put on a disguise doesnt mean your character shouldn't be affected by anything. It is still there, wearing a mask.

[Ivorak]

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1327093493' post='101487']
I've had wodin's guard in my ally, who is unkickable because it's an illusion, but he can't do anything inside, either.
It would be extremely annoying if you were illusioned for some days to play on a mission, as illusions are set, and then find yourself stripped from your real alliance while being unable to do something about it, which is obviously a very special problem for leaders.

If an ally member goes disguised for a while, they're still members, but can't do anything inside during the time disguised. It would be highly unfair if a person could be kicked from their real ally while they are stuck in the illusion ally, even more so if the person kicked is the leader of an ally.
[/quote]

Is there a countdown before illusions can be dropped? And is it very long? Otherwise, while it may require the illusion user to abort a mission, there is something the alliance leader can do about it. Not everything can be done without sacrifice.

And regardless of the above, I think an alliance, by definition, is based on trust. Sure, trust can be betrayed, but that's a risk inherent to most everything. And if you build up an alliance on anything else, then that "alliance" has no purpose besides perhaps the small boons that come from the game features. In such cases the alliance exists only mechanically and therefore shouldn't exist at all.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Ivorak

[Chewett]

When you enter an illusion nearly all of your stats are saved, and then when you leave reset.

This is because an illusion can change numerous things about you, including alliance.

Therefore, for illusions where you alliance is changed, when you end the illusion your alliance is also reset back to what it was.

Surely the problem here, is where dst was removed from the alliance, But because she was in an illusion, had the ability to regain said alliance.

Its correct handling for illusions, since alliance can change, But further points to the fact that illusions should probably be removed from all for the time being, until they are ready.

[Passant the Weak]

Warning: I just discover what illusions are, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

That being said: I understand someone in an illusion hides her real identity and looks different. However if someone gets in touch with the illusionist real alliance mechanism and kicks her, then the membership should be lost. The person has vhosen to be in an illusion, her real status (alliance membership) is not in an illusion. It's more an administrative status. And can still be lost.

[No one]

I don't have illusions, i don't understand them completely but I vote to keep the old alliance after illusion reset.

All the reasons for & against has been said already.
True, in case of an alliance take over, you should be able to kick him out, but again one should be able to fight back.

The only issue here is because there was a failed alliance takeover were the ppl in charge didn't took into consideration all the variables. Not that everybody can know everything. So what? Try again.

Well ... now everybody knows what an illusion can do, nobody should be surprised by what it means anymore.



PS : Also, from what I understand, it was already a small batte, so at one point the parties involved knew what was going on and what they were supposed to do. So this is a fair failed takeover.

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='No one' timestamp='1327103318' post='101523']
I don't have illusions, i don't understand them completely but I vote to keep the old alliance after illusion reset.

All the reasons for & against has been said already.
True, in case of an alliance take over, you should be able to kick him out, but again one should be able to fight back.
[/quote]
Yes, of course you'd prefer for dst to keep the alliance. You're obviously biased.

[No one]

Pip, you are an idiot if I may say so. For you I will go off topic:

What they did to take SI was amazing. They failed ... it happened.

I know how hard it is to take an alliance, I planned and helped the 4 alliance takeover same time ago (do try to remember), I know how difficult it is especially when someone is fighting back and for that I feel sorry for some of the ppl involved.
From experience I know that the best feeling when you take over an alliance is when you have a fighting for it.

To blame the failure on "abuse" or broken or wrong feature ... that I don't agree. It is called "game mechanics" (but you probably don't know what that is) that finally decided the battle.
So, [b]removing that illusion "alliance feature" is to remove a change to fight , a chance to win or lose and therefor I will not agree with it.[/b]

In short:
[i][b]I hate when rules change, but I love it when ppl win because they knew better [/b][/i]and even more if it is me or my friends.

In short term they lost the battle but they won information. In the long run they lost just one occasion. It is up to them to give up or prepare better next time.

I am glad that this happened, that they tried. And, of course, I am also glad that they failed.
I am glad that they have shown initiative. I am glad that they failed because they went to sleep after it, because of their timing ... because of the planning in general.

[Seigheart]

My question is if this bug was reported before?

If not, isn't that bug abuse since she clearly knew about it.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Seigheart' timestamp='1327109828' post='101538']
My question is if this bug was reported before?

If not, isn't that bug abuse since she clearly knew about it.
[/quote]

You dont seem to have read my post... What dst did is no bug, its a specific feature of the illusion, becuase of the nature of the illusions. It just so happened that it helped dst in this regards.

[Seigheart]

It is intended to be used to put you back in an alliance? Even though you've been kicked out?

[Chewett]

[quote name='Seigheart' timestamp='1327111086' post='101543']
It is intended to be used to put you back in an alliance? Even though you've been kicked out?
[/quote]

Its meant to reset you back to the state you were in before the illusion, in this case, your alliance position. As i have explained above...

In this specific example, it allowed dst to get back into her alliance, I doubt she was thinking of using this trick so that she could regain her alliance, as like all of us, were rather surprised her alliance got taken.

[Peace]

When you wear an alliance badge, in our case dst had the SI badge, when you enter an illusion as Marv said it is a cloak and it lasts as much as you want it to last. It protects you and if you are kicked of the alliance while in the illusion mode, once you cancel it you restore your normal status and badge as if you never lost it.

This isn't a bug, it has happened to me plenty of times when I began using illusions and Grido can confirm it because it happened once I think with the Golemian main alliance.

[Prince Marvolo]

[quote name='No one' timestamp='1327109714' post='101537']

To blame the failure on "abuse" or broken or wrong feature ... that I don't agree. It is called "game mechanics" (but you probably don't know what that is) that finally decided the battle.
So, [b]removing that illusion "alliance feature" is to remove a change to fight , a chance to win or lose and therefor I will not agree with it.[/b] [/quote]

The illusions nullified our chance to win. dst could have had a lot of ways to get her alliance back (through the way I suggested, and probably a Lot more than that). But the illusions made it impossible for us to take it over. and therefor, made the alliance untouchable.

I myself never called it abuse. I know it is called game mechanics.
That doesn't change the fact that one of those mechanics may or may not be a bit overpowered in certain cases.



I understand you want to have your initial 'settings' back after an illusion, but maybe there is a possibility for illusions to recognise an alliance kick, that does not influence any other settings from before the illusion.




And this is not a topic to discuss how good or bad we planned things.

[No one]

[quote name='Prince Marvolo' timestamp='1327141299' post='101584']
The illusions nullified our chance to win. dst could have had a lot of ways to get her alliance back (through the way I suggested, and probably a Lot more than that). But the illusions made it impossible for us to take it over. and therefor, made the alliance untouchable.
[/quote]
No Marv, your only mistake is that you celebrated too soon. And you had you occasion to take the alliance for good when she first ended the illusion and came back into SI. At that moment you could have kicked her again, but as I said, you sleeped on your gain.


[quote name='Prince Marvolo' timestamp='1327141299' post='101584']
That doesn't change the fact that one of those mechanics may or may not be a bit overpowered in certain cases.
[/quote]
Over powered is [u]skillvampire & vampiricaura[/u] but they [u]were created specially overpowered [/u]for a reason : [u]to give a fighting chance[/u].
Now you want to remove a fighting chance ... then ... why not just kill all the vampires & priests because they are overpowered too.


[quote name='Prince Marvolo' timestamp='1327141299' post='101584']
I understand you want to have your initial 'settings' back after an illusion, but maybe there is a possibility for illusions to recognise an alliance kick, that does not influence any other settings from before the illusion.
[/quote]
No Marv, i want nothing for myself. Just keep the fighting chance wherever it may be.

Edited January 21, 2012 by No one

[Prince Marvolo]

No one stops you from making a topic concerning skillvampire.

[Liberty4life]

[quote name='Prince Marvolo' timestamp='1327141299' post='101584']
The illusions nullified our chance to win.
[/quote]

not true why you see it that way?

last time i checked thats not true, she gets back in ally using illusions but that doesnt make her automatically leader if she doesnt have more loyalty than leader, and since illias did nothin... therafore ya have given outcome

[Shemhazaj]

[quote]not true why you see it that way?

last time i checked thats not true, she gets back in ally using illusions but that doesnt make her automatically leader if she doesnt have more loyalty than leader, and since illias did nothin... therafore ya have given outcome [/quote]

[color=#808080][i]because she raised the loyalty outside the alliance and waited for the right moment to drop the illusion and join the alliance with 20 loyalty below the leader.[/i][/color]
[color=#808080][i]How long does it take to gain 21 loyalty? For me (on MP5) it'd be between 10 and 30 sec...[/i][/color]

[Chewett]

[quote name='Shemhazaj' timestamp='1327147339' post='101600']

[color=#808080][i]because she raised the loyalty outside the alliance and waited for the right moment to drop the illusion and join the alliance with 20 loyalty below the leader.[/i][/color]
[color=#808080][i]How long does it take to gain 21 loyalty? For me (on MP5) it'd be between 10 and 30 sec...[/i][/color]
[/quote]

From talking with her during the whole day, That is not what happened. She was attempting to find a way to get into the alliance, and then when she ended the illusion she relised it dropped her back in. Unless i am mistaken based on what she was saying while we were talking, she didnt relise the illusion would have protected her until she ended it when she was going to get some loyalty

[Shemhazaj]

[quote]From talking with her during the whole day, That is not what happened. She was attempting to find a way to get into the alliance, and then when she ended the illusion she relised it dropped her back in. Unless i am mistaken based on what she was saying while we were talking, she didnt relise the illusion would have protected her until she ended it when she was going to get some loyalty [/quote]

[color=#808080][i]she got kicked out twice Chewett.[/i][/color]
[color=#808080][i]first time, yeah, she gained loyalty after dropping the illusion, after being kicked out second time (Illias managed to do that when she was almost catching up with him) she gained loyalty outside the alliance and knew exactly she'd be back in...[/i][/color]

[Liberty4life]

yeah thats true, but you are forgetting the part where she is only one, while they are 4, why they didnt continue gaining loyalty, if they did she wouldnt be able to catch up, thing in here is that they are complaining becoz they werent aware of possibility to get back into ally which they should have been, it was known before about ally and illusion cmon how much times ya seen grido in gotr, i seen him twice and i dont even play that much, so... since they werent aware of it they werent preparing for it, anyway they did it at opportune time, it was night in europe, dst has to go to sleep ya know and she is sick atm and doesnt have that much time to play anyway, so hell yeah they had awesome chances, if they kept it up she wouldnt be able to catch up and all she could do would be to stay frozen in illusion with chances to do anything else since they would be in front in terms of loyalty and since they are 4 and they spread in different timezones, its easy to keep watch

so stop complaining about not having chances, ya had best chance ever and you went to chill out thinking there is nothing she could do, instead of running around md and showing off your new badge ya could have farmed loyalty but ya didnt

if ya want to take over ally ya need to think very well and plan it before not during, and get fully informed and prepared which ya wasnt, ya only got nice idea, awesome opportunity and ofc turncoat, ya didnt had all it takes for making such a bold move

edit: yes at first she didnt remembered illusion thingy until she ended it, then she knew what to do

Edited January 21, 2012 by Liberty4life

[Prince Marvolo]

[quote name='Liberty4life' timestamp='1327147939' post='101605']
yeah thats true, but you are forgetting the part where she is only one, while they are 4, why they didnt continue gaining loyalty, if they did she wouldnt be able to catch up, thing in here is that they are complaining becoz they werent aware of possibility to get back into ally which they should have been, it was known before about ally and illusion cmon how much times ya seen grido in gotr, i seen him twice and i dont even play that much, [/quote]

We didn't spend too much time getting loyalty because we did not expect this to happen
Grido in GotR, No I have never seen that.


[quote name='Liberty4life' timestamp='1327147939' post='101605']so... since they werent aware of it they werent preparing for it, anyway they did it at opportune time, it was night in europe, dst has to go to sleep ya know and she is sick atm and doesnt have that much time to play anyway, so hell yeah they had awesome chances, if they kept it up she wouldnt be able to catch up and all she could do would be to stay frozen in illusion with chances to do anything else since they would be in front in terms of loyalty and since they are 4 and they spread in different timezones, its easy to keep watch[/quote]

I'm also in Europe, I also had to sleep, and I'm in the middle of college exams.

[quote name='Liberty4life' timestamp='1327147939' post='101605']
so stop complaining about not having chances, ya had best chance ever and you went to chill out thinking there is nothing she could do, instead of running around md and showing off your new badge ya could have farmed loyalty but ya didnt

if ya want to take over ally ya need to think very well and plan it before not during, and get fully informed and prepared which ya wasnt, ya only got nice idea, awesome opportunity and ofc turncoat, ya didnt had all it takes for making such a bold move

edit: yes at first she didnt remembered illusion thingy until she ended it, then she knew what to do
[/quote]

Making a statement about why something happened is not showing off. It's called explaining.
How was I supposed to know that it was possible? I don't know anything about illusions.





Now, I made this to discuss the alliance/illusion matter, and wether or not it should be possible, and not on how well we were informed.
If you want to continue to discuss the takeover itself, you can always find me somewhere in game.

[Liberty4life]

[quote name='Prince Marvolo' timestamp='1327148727' post='101608']

We didn't spend too much time getting loyalty because we did not expect this to happen
Grido in GotR, No I have never seen that.[/quote]

exactly mine point, ya didnt expected it, your fault, but then dont say ya didnt had any chances becoz of that
and well ya could have seen peace jumpin allys etc i dont have to give examples, ya could have know it, your loss that ya didnt noticed it on several occasions

[quote name='Prince Marvolo' timestamp='1327148727' post='101608']

I'm also in Europe, I also had to sleep, and I'm in the middle of college exams.
[/quote]

but amoran is usa, and you had ilias and raven for europe as well


[quote name='Prince Marvolo' timestamp='1327148727' post='101608']
Making a statement about why something happened is not showing off. It's called explaining.
[/quote]

i didnt refereed to that, i refereed to running around whole md once ya got badge




[quote name='Prince Marvolo' timestamp='1327148727' post='101608']
Now, I made this to discuss the alliance/illusion matter, and wether or not it should be possible, and not on how well we were informed.
If you want to continue to discuss the takeover itself, you can always find me somewhere in game.
[/quote]

i am not talking about takeover itself, but i needed to go that way to show mine main point, in here i elaborated how this illusion thingy isnt some god-like ability and that it is possible to react to it and counter it, so i had to bring up what happened and what you should have done in order to get your desired outcome

once again ya are complainin for not knowin about it, well at least it looks like that, complaint like that is equal to convict's complaint about not knowing about law he is charged for braking, in the end if it didnt had to do with your failure ya wouldnt complain