Resource skills and how they effect collecting

[AmberRune]

[cquote]
Recently a couple of you have reached a specific level of skill whereby
you are able to collect more than one resource per use with your tools.
Some tools will allow you to gather more than one resource per use,
provided you have the nesscary level of skill. I don't have the list of
these items offhand, nor the specific value of skill, so please don't
ask.

Some were concerned that, after reaching the required skill, they could
deplete a resource accidentally.

I am considering changing the system so that higher skill levels are
still useful in giving multiple resources without the possibility of
gathering more than one resource per use.

The initial idea, and it is only an idea at this stage, is that all
resource gathering items will require a level of skill to harvest a
resource with 100% success rate every time. This required level will
differ from the tool and the resource, balancing out tools which can be
used with a very short cooldown and ones that have a much longer
cooldown. This skill level can be called the "base level" for now, for
reference.

If you use a tool which you don't have the required base level skill,
then you will have a percentage chance of gathering that resource. If
you succeed or fail you will gain a skill increase, as your attempt has
given you some knowledge, and you will also remove one resource from the
landscape. An example practically would be when you gather herbs, you
might mess it up because you dig too shallow and cut the roots, losing
the herb. This is merely an example.

There will also be an advanced level where you gather 2 of the resource
at a time without removing 2 from the scene. This means you can
potentially gather more of a resource from the scene than it possibly
holds. If you have more than the base skill, and less than the advanced
level there will be a percentage chance of gathering multiple of the
resource.

This rewards those who have been gathering a resource a lot, and have
been skilled, and gives some form of progression where it becomes easier
to use certain "better" tools over time, but that you can still use them
and learn from them.

Comments on the idea would be good. Its only an idea that im
considering and it won't nesscarily be implemented at all.

find me at
bugs at MagicDuel dot com [/cquote]

[Udgard]

I agree with this, and I think it is conceptually sound as well.
The "number" of a resource reflects its level of existence/reality, not amount, so it's perfectly logical that someone with a long experience in handling a certain resource (reflected by skill) to be able to harvest resources that is more "existent".

[Tom Pouce]

Hi

My only remark is that ressources are much depleted often ..

So i suggest that you dont make that if one use tool and miss that ressources are remove from scene
we just can say that it drop on floor, or that it was not pick up ... so it can still be taken

[Muratus del Mur]

Depleating of resources is a 'risk' that should remain as part of the gameplay. Accidental depletion of resources is however not something intended to happen often. Gathering more than there are is interesting, debating it further will lead to interesting changes. Consider however that as it is now you can get a clear view of the total amounts of resources in the realm, but if they will depend on how much you actually gather there will be no real overview on the total available resources of a sort. Think how this will affect the rarity of some resorces. It could go well if you plan it right, or it could mess up rarity/value.

[A creative solution to the initial problem could be to allow same skill (or other skill/tool) to regenerate a resource in a place. For example you could water the herbs to increase the available resource. This should come at a strict cost, either you increase or you gather, one day cooldown. It will offer a 'fighting' chance to prevent total depletion but of course it will leave space for alt abuse.]

[Tal]

a way to actively regrow resources would be good.

[Neno Veliki]

just a thought..
why not make it that overharvesting and depleting doesnt give bad effect only to the resource but to the depletor too?

[Muratus del Mur]

that might be interesting too, if someone wishes to deplete a resource they could suffer a penalty ..something liek a percentage of that sort of resources is taken out of their inventory.. if you wish to sabotage something there should be some sort of risk

[Valldore Nal]

Trying to sabotage something should have a risk, agree on that.

But the idea of losing a percentage of that resource from the inventory doesn't fit well in my mind. Lets say i'm in a field full of herbs and gather every last one of them. How would that affect the herbs i gathered ?

A risk that is more realistic would be better, than just affect the simple numbers of the resource (unless there is something i'm missing here which would make the loss of resources a realistic one)

I don't have any idea atm unfortunately ....... At least not one that won't have a need for ppl to intervene . But in the end, shouldn't it be the lands inhabitants to secure their resources in a way ?

P.S. The easiest way would be to punish the depletors in a way that they would think twice before they attempt something like that, but i believe the certain "atmosphere" should be kept as well. (I repeat if i'm missing something that would make this idea more realistic I would like to hear it )

[lashtal]

How about incorporating a sort of stat damage for who deplete resources?
An example:
Every time I collect bones, my excavation stat is incremented by 0.05.
Every time I deplete bones, my excavation stat is lowered by, let's say, 1.

Or it could be a percentage of my current stat value.

In the end, it would be as if I gathered said resource irresponsibly.

lashtal

[Eon]

That's incredibly unrealistic. I take the last herb so I somehow magically lose 20+ herbs because of it... come on. It still wouldn't stop the depleting, since I I'd still be doing it no matter what the negative effect is (yes, even if I lost a percentage of my overall stats, which wouldn't make any sense, but I'm sure someone will eventually end up suggesting).

Losing stats doesn't make any sense either. I don't see how picking the last x from a spot makes you less skilled at gathering it.

There is currently already a negative in place as well, and that's the fact that we have to wait longer before we get to pick anymore herbs.

I'm all for negative's, but at least propose negatives that are actually realistic.

[Valldore Nal]

[quote name='lashtal' timestamp='1346955432' post='121492']
How about incorporating a sort of stat damage for who deplete resources?
An example:
Every time I collect bones, my excavation stat is incremented by 0.05.
Every time I deplete bones, my excavation stat is lowered by, let's say, 1.

Or it could be a percentage of my current stat value.

In the end, it would be as if I gathered said resource irresponsibly.

lashtal
[/quote]

The only irresponsibility would be that there won't be any bones available for a while. I honestly don't see how this will affect your ability to gather them in the first place (since, for example even if you gathered the last one, you did carefully and for a purpose : show it, sell it, make something from it. So in the end you pay the same attention on gathering the bones, even if it is the last one) .

I agree with Eon, damage on given stat doesn't seem realistic either .

Edit : An idea that came to my mind. Most of the gathering tools are shared community items. Something that would make more sense would be that if someone depletes a given resource, he won't be able to get an item for some time. For example, herb baskets are taken from Loreroot. It's logical, if someone depletes herbs that Loreroot wouldn't allow him to use the tools next time. (not talking for ever, prob 1 reset is too low. But maybe a formula could be made, taking in consideration how much time the given resource would need to regenerate full, and "ban" that player for that amount of time).

P.S. I have no idea if this is even possible or how easy/hard this could be to code, just throwing ideas

Edited September 6, 2012 by Valldore Nal

[lashtal]

What I had in mind was slightly different, but I can see your points (I'm referring to Eon and Valldore).

I think that being skilled in gathering resources means also being able to do it in the most efficient way, allowing the needed time for them to regenerate.
Depleting a scene means decreasing the scene's potential to (re)generate said resource.
I'm not saying it's immoral to deplete resources and my post wasn't "against" those who enjoy depleting.
I'm saying it's un-efficient from the resource's point of view.

Ok, bones is probably unhappy as an example, not all of you has free access to graves and morgues...
Let's take basil. Being skilled in gathering basil, imo means also knowing how much you can get of it without damaging the plant itself. It's the plant's point of view I am considering,

That's why I was thinking of a penalty in said skill. To me, from the resource's point of view, depleting means being rough, not skilled.

Edited September 6, 2012 by lashtal

[VertuHonagan]

I completely agree with Lashtal. I would think some sort of stat damage should be dealt for depleting resources. If you deplete resources completely it shows that you lack the skill to realize how efficiently you are working that item. Take real life gardening for example. Lets say your growing lettuce. Knowing that keeping a certain amount of those lettuce leaves still alive in that garden will produce more plants, you would logicaly keep that amount there to increase the productivity of that plant. If you just cut off every single lettuce leaf and wait for the next batch to regrow, then your not tending to the plant properly, and you have a chance of destroying that plant.

So I would also suggest not just a stat damage for depletion, but possibly lowering the regeneration rate for that resource as well. Making it take twice as long for the resource to regenerate. There should also be higher risk for depleting that resource multiple times. Lowering the regeneration rate of the resources even more for the constant miss-handling of the resource.

[Valldore Nal]

[quote name='lashtal' timestamp='1346963274' post='121499']
What I had in mind was slightly different, but I can see your points (I'm referring to Eon and Valldore).

I think that being skilled in gathering resources means also being able to do it in the most efficient way, allowing the needed time for them to regenerate.
Depleting a scene means decreasing the scene's potential to (re)generate said resource.
I'm not saying it's immoral to deplete resources and my post wasn't "against" those who enjoy depleting.
I'm saying it's un-efficient from the resource's point of view.

Ok, bones is probably unhappy as an example, not all of you has free access to graves and morgues...
Let's take basil. Being skilled in gathering basil, imo means also knowing how much you can get of it without damaging the plant itself. It's the plant's point of view I am considering,

That's why I was thinking of a penalty in said skill. To me, from the resource's point of view, depleting means being rough, not skilled.
[/quote]

The truth is that this wasn't the way i saw the idea. Lets continue with the basil example then.

Skill gathering of basil means you know how much you can take without damaging the plan. If for months, i train myself in becoming skillful on gathering basil , but one day i'm in a bad mood and decide i want to deplete the plan (or even i stay in bad mood a week, and have several plants to take my wrath on them) or lets say i want to take as much as possible because i don't want to grow basil anymore .

Does that mean that the next time i am going to grow basil, i will have no idea how to gather it without hurting the plant ? (if i want to do it that way)
I don't think that i would have forgotten how to do it just because i would have destroyed some plants.

If the suggestion was that when someone depletes, he doesn't get a skill increase because he doesn't do it the proper way (he is being rough) , yes, totally agree with that.

Also, give a really high percentage that this last gather won't give any resource (because i'm being rough and i'm putting the plant in danger), yes again. Give it a 50% or even more that won't give any resource.

But being rough doesn't make me forget how the proper way is, since i've spend so much time training my self in that way.


[quote name='VertuHonagan' timestamp='1346965797' post='121501']
I completely agree with Lashtal. I would think some sort of stat damage should be dealt for depleting resources. If you deplete resources completely it shows that you lack the skill to realize how efficiently you are working that item. Take real life gardening for example. Lets say your growing lettuce. Knowing that keeping a certain amount of those lettuce leaves still alive in that garden will produce more plants, you would logicaly keep that amount there to increase the productivity of that plant. If you just cut off every single lettuce leaf and wait for the next batch to regrow, then your not tending to the plant properly, and you have a chance of destroying that plant.

So I would also suggest not just a stat damage for depletion, but possibly lowering the regeneration rate for that resource as well. Making it take twice as long for the resource to regenerate. There should also be higher risk for depleting that resource multiple times. Lowering the regeneration rate of the resources even more for the constant miss-handling of the resource.
[/quote]

Lets keep lettuce as the example then. I have a field where i grow lettuces, but i also have an antagonist for the local market that does the same thing. I grow mine with care and the proper way (have trained on doing so and i have learned the proper way in time).

But one day i decide to go to my antagonists field and gather all his (don't ask me why he left them unguarded, that's another story). I go in there and gather every single leaf, being rough cause i am on a hurry and without caring for the plants and if i destroy them.

The next day that i will go to my field again, i would have forgotten how the proper way is ? Just because i destroyed my antagonist field , i need to learn how to do it again ?

Same idea for stat damaging someone who lowers the regeneration . Don't increase his stat, he is being rough and hasty. Give a high chance of not gathering a resource after all.

P.S. I don't say either that depletion is good or bad, it's not the subject of the discussion. I don't even look at whether the punishment is fair, too weak or too severe for the depletor. Just looking for something to be a realistic punishment , that's all.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Valldore Nal

[Laphers]

I'm not in favour of having stat damage for depletion. I do think that there should be a cost for it but not a "permanent" damage to stats. What if instead there was a change in tool cooldown based on recent depletions? Perhaps a multiplier based on the level that the resources are at before the tool use. And if the multipliers stacked then it would soon become difficult to continuously deplete. The length of time that the new cooldown time is in effect could also stack (but doesn't have to). It may be useful to have the cooldown multiplier and length of effect carry across all tools so that if someone depletes with a saw it would also affect their basket or pail.

[img]http://seto.machthreeproductions.com/laph-md/resources.jpg[/img]
I just realized that this idea may need a timestamp column added to the database to compare the current length of effect to a new one so that the length of effect can only increase in time.

This is just an idea but (to me at least) may be preferable to implementing stat damage. Let me know what you think

Edited September 7, 2012 by Laphers

[stavaroiu]

Also just an idea. How about movelock-ing the person that depletes a resource, making him unable to leave the scene of the resource for some time based on how much he depleted that resource.

Lest say when he gathers below 50% he is movelocked for 1 hour,
33% - 3 hours,
20% - 6 hours,
10% - 12 hours.

Rather then some form of skilldmg(witch i honestly doubt will make ppl consider NOT depleting again) this should effectively stop the depletion of a resource and if not stop ppl from depleting several location all in 1 day.

Edited September 7, 2012 by stavaroiu

[Neno Veliki]

nobody is talking about permanent stat damage.
like with all other stat damages, u win some, u lose some. it all can be gained back with proper way of handling..

to Valldore: ull lose some percentage of the stat not all of it, so, no u wont forget the proper way if u deplete once, but if ure doing it over and over again be it on purpose or not then somethings wrong.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Neno Veliki

[DarkRaptor]

The system that makes most sense to me would be one where depleting a resource COULD have a side effect of damaging the used Tool.

The damage would be random and would penalize the tool efectiveness for some amount of uses or until item regroup.(or we can go creative and have a guild of tool repair players..)

This would require that tool efectiveness and player skill should be considered as factors to the amount of resources gathered per use, we could have a formula like this:

[b]Gathered_QTD[/b] = [b]TollEfectiveness[/b] * ( 1 + ([b]PlayerSkill[/b] % [b]TollExpertiseLevel[/b] ))

Where:
[b]TollEfectiveness[/b] would be 1 (100%) when not damaged and 0 (0%) when fully damaged
[b]PlayerSkill[/b] would be the current player stat
[b]TollExpertiseLevel[/b] would be the skill level required to take advantage of the tool and collect more than one resource in just one use. This already exists, is tool dependent and i belive it's between 50 and 90..(?)

[Esmaralda]

I really like Valldore Nal's and darkraptor's ideas and perhaps they can be combined. Depending on the resources being harvested, the tool could break and the chance of harvesting a "usable" piece of the resource can decrease as the number of available resources decreases.

So if you're cutting a tree down, since it's hard material and you're using a saw to cut it, that could have a higher chance of damaging the tool when using it. Conversely, when collecting plants in a basket, that should have a smaller chance of breaking the basket as you're only really using it to put plants in it (though of course, you can always trip and fall and break it, or pierce it with a sharp root and damage it).

Further, as you pick more and more of the leaves from the basil plant, there will be less and less quality leaves available to pick from that are good for cooking, so the chance of you "spotting" another good leaf to pick should decrease. In other words, when you have just the stalk and one leaf left on that stalk, the chance that that leaf is actually a good quality leaf is small and you will likely throw it out instead of keeping it (thus failing to collect)

Another example, as you keep trimming branches on trees, there would be less "easily reachable" branches that you can get to (perhaps you need to climb the tree now, which takes more skill than just cutting the branches at the bottom).

Of course, your skill in that trade would help you mitigate these effects.

[Ackshan Bemunah]

Does a shallow puddle damage a bucket?

Does a fallow soil patch damage a basket?

A disincentive for depletion...should defeat the ends. If the ends is to harm, discourage, leave ignorant, exploit, or weaken others, depletion should in some way help others.

For instance, have resources cycle...depleted herbs improve the growth of wood in the same scene, and/or vice versa. So if someone depleted all the herbs, we can go and deplete the wood to help the herbs grow back...

Water depletion is easily solved...Simply have water return to its source or move quickly to the nearest source when not used.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Ackshan Bemunah

[Kaya]

It actually would make sense for resources decrease upon depletion as it's amount does not actually represent how many you have (Ever seem a player actually transporting 100 branches? It would require a lot of going back and forth to take the entire pile with you) but how 'real' they are. (see: [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10370-how-can-resources-be-fixed-unsplittable-groups/"]http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10370-how-can-resources-be-fixed-unsplittable-groups/[/url]) Depleting resources would mean you don't actually see them as resources, but just as a way to damage the community.

The problem with this is that it would only raise the cap of what depletion is, if you loose for example 5 resources when you fully deplete a resource we can just as well say that a resources is depleted at 1 for one day and a depleter could pay 5 resources to increase the depletion time to 5 days. Also it wouldn't make sense for resources of which there are only one.

There is however an other logical punishment for depletion. Resources were originally announced as Land Resources, meaning when depleting resources you basically steal it from the land. Then wouldn't it make sense for the land to try to push depleters away? Giving them a (temporary) Land Loyalty penalty, quickly increasing in duration and severity with every depletion making it more difficult to move around within the land.