Killing and Revival

[Chewett]

Since you have a shiny new forum why dont we use it.

Previously the balance of killing and revival items were exactly equal meaning that it was possible to revive everyone killed. However possibility did not preclude greed, so this often didnt happen. Now with Mur increasing the ease the ease of killing people, but not of revival like he promised then surely we are going to end up with a large amount of people dead? Molquert exists yes, but that only just about balanced the greed of those holding revival items.

In the past the death feature has been directly attributed to one player leaving, do we want more?

What do you say public council?
PS: for interest, i see Eon killing at the fastest rate he can with his new contract, and see little stopping.

[Syrian]

iv always had an issue with killing and revival, especially with the introduction of eons contract, it seems a little much to be able to kill every week, there just isnt enough revival for that. there are people that say death isnt too bad, but the way i see it is, death isnt bad if you have an ally leader to jump to, or a leash, or you are very inactive anyway, it can be quite an annoyance if you have no way around the realm, even more so if you have no one that will be willing to help you with molly.i dont want to see other people leaving the game, we have too little people in the realm as it is, if people start leaving because they are dead this only hurts the game more.

 

For solutions, possibly increase the cooldown of the contract? other killing items have a higher cooldown, and if someone dies once a week then the dead may outnumber the amount of revival items(assuming eon kills 1 per week, which may be an unfair assumption). we could introduce more methods of revival(items or otherwise), if the killing/revival items were balanced before, and molly helped with the greed of people, then maybe more items are needed to balance eons contract, or the cooldown of the existing items lowered. Im not sure how these options would effect the game but i thought i would list possible logical solutions that i thought of

 

Sy

[Maebius]

Quick reply.   Basically yes.

I know I have a bit of a personal stake in the question, but it was nicely synchronistic that I am now 'researching' the concept first hand.

 

Molquert is nice, but requires OTHER people to help you revive. The kid yesterday stated more than once to me that "laziness" was the worst part of revival.   Yes, his guards are tough, but that's to prevent Revival being too convenient.  The dead seem to be unable to directly effect their own Revival, except through 'begging others to help'.   (note, this is not meant to sound accusing agaisnt any group/person. It is the mechanic we have to use)

 

There are revival items, but they seem held by tight fists.

Molquert's guards are a challenging combat.

 

This means current revival techniques are possibly limited to a mechanic that quite a good portion of MagicDuelers simply do not care for?. 

Combat isn't for everyone.  It also seems grinders may not have the Social network to rally the community to their aid.

(these are generalizations)

 

I don't think "more revival items" will fix anything, as it still uses the same mechanic. Greed will 'break' this method, as we've seen.  

 

 

Ideally, there could possibly be a third method of revival.      (sadly, I don't have a good idea yet of what that could be)

 

Something influence-able by the Dead, would be ideal, though the effects of Death limit this a bit currently.

Inventory items (bushies/etc) can't be gathered easily Dead. 

Heat is not happening without movement/Combat.    

What does this leave us beyond "asking for help?"      

 

...begin brainstorms here.

 

I also don't think changing Killing Contract items will do anything long-term.Death is obviously meant to exist.  Changing cooldowns doesn't solve the core of the issue which is balance of revival, since Revival tools aren't used now.   We need a more general, and potentially more 'holistic' solution.  

Edited September 18, 2013 by Maebius

[Syrian]

in regards to the greed aspect quickly, it would depend on who these revival items are given to. nimmy (from what iv seen) using hers quite selflessly, im sure others would too

 

Sy

[Maebius]

I agree, but the overall 'perception' is that revival tools are not currently used to the best of their ability.  

Grido publically offers his to use anytime, for example.  (Only a handfull of gold needed.)

(I agree this is his right, and would NOT change this...but is an example of how one player can 'break' revival easily and remove the tool from the equation)

[Menhir]

1 1/2 years back I had a Quest Idea which was dealing with the whole "being dead" scenario. Some months ago I was sharing it privately with someone and got discouraged. Now things are getting more complicated and the whole thing is getting more and more a bigger public "issue". I would like to share the idea as possibility for all of us to work on (if possible at all).

 

Here is the short description:

 

A dead player would have the choice to be "moved" to the other side of life, lets call it afterlife world, the quest would start in this case. In my idea its a blurred version of MD with different aspects of interacting ( I will explain this later more precise). So here in this mirror world he/she is not powerless at all but one thing is important - he/she cannot interact with the living people on the other side, this might be the main motivation to finish the "Quest" to leave the afterlife world. So here his/her creatures are acting differently, how needs to be discussed, many options are there in my mind. To leave this world he/she has to accomplish a series of task and my thought was a mixture of fighting (if the player has no creatures it´s not a problem this could be solved) puzzles, and story. The quest should be available to ALL MP stages and once finished leave a mark on the player which shows that he/she returned from the dead. If he/she dies a second time and choses to come back the quest should be different, maybe harder than the first time.

 

I´d like to ask all who are interested to share their ideas or just like or dislike this post.  

 

I consider this idea no longer "my" idea and would like to see it implemented as community project IF it is possible and wanted at all.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Menhir

[Eara Meraia]

first of all I want to state that I see a big difference between death in MD and death IRL. Most of it has been discussed earlier, so I wont go for details (if you are interested ask me privately). Thats why I will speak of killing here as a game feature and not as of moral act.

 

I think killing is an interesting aspect of MD that should not be lost. It give game special flavour if you want and can be perfectly used for RP and other issues for example events (think about the last day of Fear). Thats why I am not against Killing contract as such. I think this idea has its place in MD. The problem is, if it is used too often it causes inflation of the feature and that is what I consider negative. Death has to be unique, it has to cause special feelings or community effort. Thats why I dont think that Molquert guards being tough to beat is a problem. I think its positive if people have work together to archieve revival. Of course not everyone can fight, but what is bad about networking and team effort? If I am not mistaken this was the original idea in the end.

 

Currently there are 2 ways to deal with the problem: 1) increase the number of revival possibilities, 2) increase cooldown of killing contract and killing items.

 

1) sounds bad for me. Even now killing by contract if rather cheap. with more revival possibilities people will be killed for a few silver and then this feature is something like a rainbow candy - easy to die, eay to revive, nothing to care of. That is what inflation do. That is what I would like to avoid.

 

2) increasing cooldown seems much better possibility. It gives possibility to keep the rp value of death in MD, also gives a chance to preserve Eons role as assassin.

 

 

I dont think killing contract has an aspect of greed. But it gives some "power" for people who do not have permanent access to killing items.

[Syrian]

the way i saw it, this post wasnt about morality of death, or bringing in any aspect of death irl, personally i would like to leave these aspects out of it if possible.

 

i do agree with eara, death, as a concept, is fine, inflation of death/revival, is something that devalues its concept, and takes away from the reason it existed in the first place. i do agree that eons contract as an idea is perfectly fine, but it seems to be causing the inflation of death that eara talks about.

 

i like the idea behind menhirs quest, simply because it gives the dead an option to have to work for their own revival, which i like the idea of.

 

Sy

[dst]

No. The ration killing/revival items is the right one. The cooldown is also the right one. Reviving items have 1 month cooldown. Killing have 2. There are how many? 4? 5 killing items? And probably 6 or 7 revival ones (thanks to Nimmy and her quest). I REALLY don't see an unbalance here. To be perfectly honest, there are too many reviving items for my taste (remember there are also one time revivals out there!).

 

Now, about Eon's contract: it takes 2 to tango. Eon will kill if only hired. Even if he'd want to kill just because he hates someone, in theory, he would not be able to. He has a role, he was given an item to support his role. Imo he's doing a great job but this is really not the discussion here. Let me take this a step further: who are the people that get killed? I can say without being afraid of making a mistake that popular people get killed (doesn't matter what kind of popularity - bad or good). And let's be honest: ALL popular people have at LEAST one friend that can help (and by help I am covering all aspects: friend can fight, get some reviving items, can pay for reviving items etc etc). NOBODY kills noobs just because they can because is really a waste of a good killing item.

[lashtal]

I completely agree with dst here.

[Tom Pouce]

HI Mur ,

 

you probably did not read all that forums (much was written on that sujbect)

 

but ill say again my toughts

 

the killing in MD is bad and i mean BAD!

 

bad because its like an banishment

 

what is wrong is that this banisment is not made by MD administration for bad beivior , but its in the hands of players and they are free to use it or not

and i have seen it use much for fun or quests with no previous aceptance of that by participants

 

what is unbalance is that the one that is killed, had no mean of defence agains that, had no sanctuary and as no mean (of his own) to revive

 

i understand that in torche there was killing, but its an few hours being dead only with automatic revive

THAT would be an solution

 

your combat system is balance and also without any bad side ,,, and at the limit of no use

so i wonder why you  put killing in an so bad unbalance compare to your combat system

 

my first tought is that it was an social experiment of you, ... well you have your result, you dont need the killing anymore

 

 tought about that alternade md that one could use to revive, its an 1/2 soulution, but its better than doing nothing

 

idea that one revive would find it harder to revive himself an 2e time is bad, it should be the reverse, one become harder to be killed

and he get more % chance to not  be kill by an killing weapon another time each time he is killed,, that would be more  likely good in my mind... that would put an limit on being killed

Edited September 18, 2013 by Tom Pouce

[Chewett]

Let me take this a step further: who are the people that get killed? I can say without being afraid of making a mistake that popular people get killed (doesn't matter what kind of popularity - bad or good). And let's be honest: ALL popular people have at LEAST one friend that can help (and by help I am covering all aspects: friend can fight, get some reviving items, can pay for reviving items etc etc). NOBODY kills noobs just because they can because is really a waste of a good killing item.

Spar was killed and left the game because of it. No "friends" came to help.
-------

I made the post in the councils forum, to see what our public council has to say.

[Tom Pouce]

Eara Meraia

 

what is wrong is illustrate with what apend to

Spartiatis

 

you think its fun for that someone if someone dont want to roleplay for months long for someone to revive him? ... and that no big community effort you describe apen for that one?

 

if for exemple someone for some reason (its improbable i think) kill Tom Pouce and Tom Pouce is not revive within 1 week at max

you MD would have made another Spartiatis off me, its mean i would do no alts, and just quit for good

 

saying: " thank you all for repaying all the goodwill i did put in MD"

Edited September 18, 2013 by Tom Pouce

[Menhir]

 

 

your tought about that alternade md that one could use to revive, its an 1/2 soulution, but its better than doing nothing

 

your idea that one revive would find it harder to revive himself an 2e time is bad, it should be the reverse, one become harder to be killed

and he get more % chance to not  be kill by an killing weapon another time each time he is killed,, that would be more  likely good in my mind... that would put an limit on being killed

 

The idea of doing the "quest" a 2nd or 3rd time and getting harder by every try is, that it should not be the only solution to the death scenario. It should be "only" one way. If it would bet easier it would loose its purpose at all, that being dead is something which is not easy to overcome. So I do not like the whole killing feature as it is used now but if it stays and has some sort of meaning (which I still don´t understand maybe someone could help me out to understand what is "being killing" adding to MD) it should not be something which is taken too easy. My main problem with it is that people are leaving MD because the alternative to counter it or being revived is not fitting to all of us equally in the way how we deal with it. Some say its balanced other do not agree and others leave MD because they cannot stand it at all. As mentioned many times earlier we should not only try to avoid losing people through this, we should prevent it, otherwise we might have a bigger death which would be permanent for ALL of us.     

Spar was killed and left the game because of it. No "friends" came to help.
-------

I made the post in the councils forum, to see what our public council has to say.

 

Exactly one of those examples I was referring too. 

[Nimrodel]

No. The ration killing/revival items is the right one. The cooldown is also the right one. Reviving items have 1 month cooldown. Killing have 2. There are how many? 4? 5 killing items? And probably 6 or 7 revival ones (thanks to Nimmy and her quest). I REALLY don't see an unbalance here. To be perfectly honest, there are too many reviving items for my taste (remember there are also one time revivals out there!).

 

Now, about Eon's contract: it takes 2 to tango. Eon will kill if only hired. Even if he'd want to kill just because he hates someone, in theory, he would not be able to. He has a role, he was given an item to support his role. Imo he's doing a great job but this is really not the discussion here. Let me take this a step further: who are the people that get killed? I can say without being afraid of making a mistake that popular people get killed (doesn't matter what kind of popularity - bad or good). And let's be honest: ALL popular people have at LEAST one friend that can help (and by help I am covering all aspects: friend can fight, get some reviving items, can pay for reviving items etc etc). NOBODY kills noobs just because they can because is really a waste of a good killing item.

 

Umm... The way I see many people don't use their revival items as liberally as I do. Some of them are even threatened before they get a chance to use theirs. You say there are 6 to 7 items. How many have seen an active Shadowseeker? Would No one or Grido offer to revive Peace and Azull for free? Are Rawquist and Kraubawnis as easy to locate as Eon is? Most of us have already attacked them because we didn't know about the problems we'd have later and they are now invisible to us. The cool down for personal killing items is 2 months. Not for Eon's contracts. And Molly in no ways balances Eon's contract killing else revival tools would not have been needed. Not accusing Eon of anything but there are N number of ways to bypass the 'Even if he'd want to kill just because he hates someone, in theory, he would not be able to.' rule. The problem here is incentive/fear. People don't have an incentive to revive other people or fear of what will happen if one person was killed. And most of us know that things in MD do not move ahead unless there is some benefit or incentive or reward given and there is no way to stop things unless some punishment is announced. Lets say I was killed for x reason. I have strong players to help me out because I have friends. Lets say Seig was killed for X reason. How many of us would be actually interested in reviving him?  The last time he was killed he had to wait till ?Christmas? to get revived along with the people who were killed in BFHs Quest? When you killed phantom orchid the last time, how many came forward to help her? 

 

First I thought that maybe punishing the people who killed would reduce the incidences. Seemingly, the community thought otherwise as they felt killing in MD couldn't be amounted to murder and was justified as it added a new element in the game and some other reasons which according to me are bs, but each is entitled to their own opinion. Fine. There were people who asked me what steps Me and my people were taking to make this a more social issue than a coding issue because the coders are already burdened with other work. I initiated talks with my govt. and now me and my people are in active discussion on how to reduce the mortality rate. Then I saw his topic and thought maybe increasing the cool down of the kill tools and reducing the cool down of revival items with every use would provide more incentive. Then I thought, people would probably start killing more people just so that they could reduce the cool down of their revival items. Yeah people in MD can get evil that way. Menhir's quest suggestion was good. But then It'd require a lot of coding and effort from the coding team which is already under so much pressure. Also, social pressures that are being discussed by the people of my land would be totally ineffective when it came to certain people, the people who most commonly use kill tools/methods. Someone suggested that we could use the killing tools/methods to in turn threaten other people to stop killing. I said that would make us hypocrites. We wouldn't be practicing what we're preaching and rather justifying the use of the very thing we intend to discourage.

 

From the way I see it, there is no morality in MD. There is either greed or fear. And those are the only alternatives I could come up with. It's up to the community to choose what they want.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Nimrodel

[DarkRaptor]

I consider Molquert and his guards a very cool ingame quest.. ok.. it gives no personal rewards but that's perfectly ok! Not everything should be about fat rewards!

I've done that quest 3 times and i've enjoyed every bit :D 

If i have the chance i will do it again and again just for the fun.

 

(ps: i have to agree that not be able to see the guards is a added trouble)

[Eara Meraia]

 

Eara Meraia

 

what is wrong is illustrate with what apend to

Spartiatis

 

you think its fun for that someone if someone dont want to roleplay for months long for someone to revive him? ... and that no big community effort you describe apen for that one?

 

if for exemple someone for some reason (its improbable i think) kill Tom Pouce and Tom Pouce is not revive within 1 week at max

you MD would have made another Spartiatis off me, its mean i would do no alts, and just quit for good

 

saying: " thank you all for repaying all the goodwill i did put in MD"

 

 

Tom, a simple message in a mood panel "Help me with revival" or personal message to me, your friend would be enough to start organizing things for your revival. Is it too much? I am persuaded - nobody must be dead for months if he/she does at least anything or asks for help. I have been dead more than once and I know what I am talking about. It was fun to do Molquerts tasks, being creative, I took it as a personal quest and stayed dead for long because I enjoyed playing dead. But I am sure there are ways of revival if somebody is seeking them. I dont know Spartialis, I dont know his motives but I also havent seen his appeals to be revived.

 

Dont get me wrong - I dont want death be common, I also do think there is inbalance if contract can be activated every week.  I want death to be UNIQUE. But getting rid of it will made MD poorer in my oppinion.

[DarkRaptor]

Spartiatis death was before the existence of the "Revival Specialist".

Also, for what i know, he was asked a great sum of gold to be revived and i guess he decided that he would not pay for it (even when he had alot more of value) because.. what assurance he would have that in the minute after his revival he would not be dead again?

 

I remember to be discussed how this would be a nice way of making business...easy gold..

[Nimrodel]

 

Tom, a simple message in a mood panel "Help me with revival" or personal message to me, your friend would be enough to start organizing things for your revival. Is it too much? I am persuaded - nobody must be dead for months if he/she does at least anything or asks for help. I have been dead more than once and I know what I am talking about. It was fun to do Molquerts tasks, being creative, I took it as a personal quest and stayed dead for long because I enjoyed playing dead. But I am sure there are ways of revival if somebody is seeking them. I dont know Spartialis, I dont know his motives but I also havent seen his appeals to be revived.

 

Dont get me wrong - I dont want death be common, I also do think there is inbalance if contract can be activated every week.  I want death to be UNIQUE. But getting rid of it will made MD poorer in my oppinion.

 

Umm there was a big forum post. There was a funeral, and people created a hullabaloo about it. But no one came forward to help revive him. I agree what he did was a bit stupid. But still.

 

Edit: That was for seig. Yeah.. there was some heat ceremony for spar i think. Those days that was the only way to revive. But in the end nothing really happened.

 

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12327-im-the-ghost-of-sparta-goe-now-is-haunted-by-a-ghost-becareful/#entry112309

Edited September 18, 2013 by Nimrodel

[dst]

If I remember correctly, Spartiats' death triggered the introduction of Molquert. Wasn't there a BIG fuss on the forum and soon after (ok..soon as in MD terms) Molly was created?

He was the spark that started the whole thing. So if's pointless to give him as an example. He did his role (even if it was unintentional).

Fenrir's case is an exception. Nobody likes him. Not even his so called friends.

 

Now, Nimmy, I can tell you this: No one asked me if he should revive Peace and/or Azull. I said a big No and threaten him to kill him and take his reviving item.

SS can be contacted and he'll surely use his item for a price (which is not even a high one).

po was revived like the next day. By Mur. So I am sorry but she's not a good example either.

[Maebius]

For Reference of the name Spartiatis:

tl;dr:  Spartiatis was a player who was killed, after making an effort to RP his death, there was a lack of revival after a month, so he left the game..

 

Molquert was created as a Revival Specialist around this time, to help counteract the situation.  

 

[spoiler]

The Value of Life in MD:

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12519-the-value-of-life-in-md/?hl=spartiatis

 

Spartiatis the Ghost:

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12327-im-the-ghost-of-sparta-goe-now-is-haunted-by-a-ghost-becareful/?hl=spartiatis#entry112313

 

The Funeral:

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12441-a-funeral/?hl=spartiatis

[/spoiler]

[Tom Pouce]

Eara Meraia

 

:)

 

nice to know you beeing an good friend as you are

 

but MD history as shown , that some are not as fortunate, or had only friends with limited ressources

 

its why what i voice, is get at least some sure way:

exemples:

being dead being time limited to 1 week, with an automatic revive ... simple coding, one still has punish the target but its limited

and if some are killed and want to take time to role play .. code an additionnal "buton" and one need to push it to enable the automatic revive

 

and if one as an revive item, or as strong fighters friends, can be revive more quicly than the automatic revive, or with more fun for his friends, that combat molqier

 

and even with molquier if i remember seiguart as wait an long long  time to be revive, the solution that concil found is to make an annoncement that corps will be hidden in necrovion... so we are not bother by there laments

Edited September 18, 2013 by Tom Pouce

[Nimrodel]

If I remember correctly, Spartiats' death triggered the introduction of Molquert. Wasn't there a BIG fuss on the forum and soon after (ok..soon as in MD terms) Molly was created?
He was the spark that started the whole thing. So if's pointless to give him as an example. He did his role (even if it was unintentional).
Fenrir's case is an exception. Nobody likes him. Not even his so called friends.
 
Now, Nimmy, I can tell you this: No one asked me if he should revive Peace and/or Azull. I said a big No and threaten him to kill him and take his reviving item.
SS can be contacted and he'll surely use his item for a price (which is not even a high one).
po was revived like the next day. By Mur. So I am sorry but she's not a good example either.

 
Umm there you go. Threatened No one. SS has a price. Po was revived by me after eon's contract tool was used to kill her following BFH's DOF quest. That sums it up. Fear/greed.
 
Also if Seig is not liked, that doesn't mean that he shouldn't be revived. Believe me, I like seig as much as you do, if possible even less. But I believe that everyone should have a fair chance to be able to be revived.
 
Also, this is for the public council to note:
 
quoting a certain troll:
 
 

I win! My plan worked! :D

Neg rep me all you want, but the fact still remains that if Chewett wasn't killed, Spart wouldn't have been revived.

 
Quoting an announcement:
 

 

Ann. 2368 - [2012-08-07 02:24:14 - Stage 11]
The head of the Treasure Keepers is starting to smell. We can't stand it anymore. We have called in a specialist to fix this but some strong-hearted adventurers need to go and find this specialist. His name is Molquert, and Molquert will now appear whenever anyone in the realm dies. The problem is Molquert never does anything for free.

Beware, he cannot hear anyone from the land of the living unless they have defeated both of his guards so first find them, declare your intentions and they will attack you. Defeat them, then you need to find Molquert. Do not try to trick Molquert, his guards will be keeping him informed and trying to trick him could end very badly for you...

This is the first stage in the implementation of a new revival process.

 Good Luck!

 

It was Seig's death not spart's, according to the council, that brought about the change. This death followed Chewett's death.

 

Whatelse was intended?

Edited September 18, 2013 by Nimrodel

[dst]

Yes, I've threaten No one and you know why. For the rest who don't know: I believe I am the only one with this "right". I've earned it.

And why haven't you asked about Maeb or Junior? Why Peace and Azull?

 

Why are you blaming people for being greedy when there are other options? You have like 3 (THREE) methods (even 4 or 5) to revive someone. Remember when I revived Eon? I used no reviving items and Molly was defo not around. It's called knowledge and most of all it's called determination to actually DO something. When was the last time I didn't get what I wanted in MD (even if that took sometimes years)?  If there is a will there will defo be a way. But for that you need patience (at least) and again determination.

[Nimrodel]

Yes, I've threaten No one and you know why. For the rest who don't know: I believe I am the only one with this "right". I've earned it.

And why haven't you asked about Maeb or Junior? Why Peace and Azull?

 

Why are you blaming people for being greedy when there are other options? You have like 3 (THREE) methods (even 4 or 5) to revive someone. Remember when I revived Eon? I used no reviving items and Molly was defo not around. It's called knowledge and most of all it's called determination to actually DO something. When was the last time I didn't get what I wanted in MD (even if that took sometimes years)?  If there is a will there will defo be a way. But for that you need patience (at least) and again determination.

 

Maeb and Junior knew it was coming. They stoked the fire first. Not expecting the fire to burn after being stoked is stupid. It was a consequence they had to expect. That too for a reason so silly as alliance take over. On the other hand Peace and Azull didn't ask for it.

 

Not everyone is dst. You are incredible. That you know yourself as well. And thats why you have my respect. :P Unfortunately, all of us are not the same >.> Also, I am not 'blaming' people for being greedy. They are greedy because they choose to be knowing fully well that they will be called greedy. :P Its a fact and that cannot be changed :P

 

Any way. Not spamming any more. I wonder if there were any more plans when molly came into the picture. Because the council seemed to have something else in store. Unless it was a BS part of the message.